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I Don't Understand The Bloodrush & Body Count Complaints


Cyandana
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On 1/29/2016 at 11:53 PM, PikeOrShield said:

I would actually prefer these two mods to work on the ult abilities, not because I think those abilities need a buff, but because I think it's the lesser of 2 evils.  These are MELEE oriented frames with melee ("melee" for Excal) oriented ults.  Now my Rhino can out melee  Valkyr or Wukong ults with these mods.  It also discourages Valkyr, Excal, and Wukong players from using these mods since their ults get nerfed for it.  This is making MELEE frames chose between a good melee weapon or a good ult.  If having these mods equipped nerfed Loki's radial disarm, the community would explode.

How can you consider it nerfed if they never worked on the ult's in the first place? In any case before these mods volt with his 2nd could already out melee those ults and now the gap widens so i see your concern. They should make it work for valk and wukong but lets be real here excals ult is only a melee in name.  More than anything it's a ranged beam than a melee so if they do make these mods affect ults it really wouldn't make sense to include excal.

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On 1/28/2016 at 7:31 PM, Cyandana said:

Complaints:

1) Mods are OP

2) Mods are "required"

3) Excal/Valk/Wukong etc don't get benefit

Reasons why complaints are stupid:

1) For the first time in FOREVER normal melee weapons can hold half a candle to "top-tier" ranged weapons. So now my Primed Reach Scindo/War is like... a third as good as a Boltor P/Hek? . That's freaking great imo.

2) Damage 3.0 will remove the real "Required" pests, in the mean time deal lmao.

3) I cannot fathom how anyone would call for a buff to Excal/Valkyr. Excal is renowned as one of the best damage dealers period - I've come to hate the frame because he makes them game legit BORING for myself and my team until we hit the point where he get's one shot. Valkyr is immortal and is one of two frames that can deal with "true" endgame enemies - why on EARTH do we need MORE hysteria damage?

I think that the idea that these weapons can now "hold half a candle" to ranged weapons now is where the disconnect occurs. I was a reasonably vocal early opponent to Blood Rush/Body Count because they make melee significantly stronger than ranged weapons in many situations. Due to the way that these mods interact with Naramon's Shadow Step/Deadly Intent and Arcane Avenger, melee weapons can easily deliver unbelievable hits with vicious derivative Slash procs, as well as render the user immune to all but a small handful of dangerous circumstances due to nearly-permanent invisibility.

It is a problem that melee weapons were often significantly weaker than ranged weapons before, but now many of the high-tier (especially Slash-based) melee weapons are capable of dealing obscene damage with no real danger.

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The mods themselves become more of a mandatory use instead of being a solution to the annoyingly short duration of combos, especially when you play missions whose rooms are too spread out to spawn enemies consistently.

Literally telling you to spend a mod slot just so you can fix the problem. Which is not a good case especially when you are meant to build a weapon you really want.

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To everyone who thinks these mods are OP... have they ever tried playing a defense/ mobile defense with just melee?  Hard to do. What about excavation, or even interceptions and assassinations I might add.  The only thing these mods do is give slightly more single target dps over most primary or secondary weapons, along with survivability, but only with life strike and/ or shadow step.  Even in survival, it's kind of hard to get a ton of oxygen with just using your melee.  Blood rush and body count may outperform some primaries as far as dps and survivability, but it is also specific to when it's possible to use next to no crowd control, no utility, just killing.  And as far as inadvertainly nerfing valkyr, I've never seen blood rush or body count able to allow a frame to take absolutely no damage in the middle of a mob. Do you want to do dps, or do you want to be invulnerable with hystaria?  Your choice.  These mods are fine where they are.  They really only shine when shadow step is used and when solo survivability counts more than anything, and at least for me, that's about 10% of what I do on warframe.  It's the same as frost dominating in defense missions over other frames.  It's what he's good at.  Blood rush and body count make solo survivability easier than most, if not all, other weapons.  Same differense.  

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On 29.01.2016 at 6:40 AM, TheGuyverOne said:

I can't speak for the OP part, it certainly created a niche for some weapons though. Combos have been ignored since melee 2.0 dropped, the body count mod is basically a band aid fix for something DE put in and abandoned like several other features. The third thing is people just wanting more power creep.

Combos suck. They just do. Channeling sucks. Everything about melee suck, starting with it's range, damage and utility basically, and that's coming from a person who spent like half of the playtime only using melee until mr10 or so. Body count and blood rush made melee bearable, but far and very far from being a power creep. And even with those mods, melee still sucks. By the time you kill something with it - normally, meaning not using it for it's mod fro Hysteria, your teammates will kill 10x more either with their powers or primary/secondary weapons.

Quote

To everyone who thinks these mods are OP... have they ever tried playing a defense/ mobile defense with just melee?

I'm not from the group who thinks it' OP obviously, just to add to that - I kinda did a lot of ODD solo back in the days, using galatine. And all things considering, if you don't use frost or vauban - cause surprise, those frames aren't doing so well in close combat you'd end up with the pod half-dead by the end of 15 round, can barely handle 20. Of course defense is hardly a place for melee but really. Or, let's remember the latest "melee only"  event. Lots of people who weren't trying to "cheese" it using loki, naramon or things like that were having huge freaking problems either being rolled to death by the rollers or just getting the objectives destroyed by lvl ~20 enemies in mobile defense. That's what happens when you use melee. Not some wonders where you bring your nikana prime with those mods and everything dies just by looking at you. It allows one to get higher damage, and that's ALL it does. Literally. Considering melee is in a crappy place as it is, it's almost nothing.

Edited by Nomen_Nescio
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On 1/29/2016 at 9:09 PM, Rorgal_Sina said:

I'm just annoyed that the only way DE knows how to buff is to buff the crit.

 

Once again, non-crit is left in dust.

I don't agree with Non-crit being left the in the Dust.

But I do see your point. Especially in regards to Guns.

 

-Melee can at least scale Status applied Damage to Melee hit counter and Melee modifiers

I was looking forward to Body Count, Blood Rush, and Maiming Strike. (No love for Weeping Wounds since Status is more single-tier capped unlike Criticals) 

These mods were a let down for my Serro plus Savage Silence build.

The 3x combo multiplier seems to be the median for me with or without Body Count mainly due to normal mission types and actions required (pick-ups/Wave downtime/etc..)

Blood Rush does work with Maiming Strike, but on PS4 it is difficult for me to get in the habit of keeping crouched for entirety of attack especially when Casting Silence every 3secs cancels toggled crouch.

Range on the Lesion has deterred me from enjoying these mods on that Polearm.

So I am currently utilizing Savage Silience's Power Strength scalability to exceed the 400% Stealth/Invisibility/Unalerted melee multiplier.

This allows Gas and Electric AoE Procs to deal decent Burst damage with the Toxic DoT's growing as the melee combo climbs. Although enemies tend to be dead from the Burst damage more than the DoTs.

Add in a 10x multiplier from Resonance.  Gas & Electric Procs seem to assist in hitting the weakpoints and the AoE Procs benefit from hitting only 1 Enemy weakpoint.

 

This allows a Status Quick-melee Polearm with long reach to still be viable. (Although Lesion's short Range keeps triggering Finishers unlike Serro/Orthos/Tonbo/Sydon)

Short duration Savage Silence with some Power-strength is a larger melee damage boost than Naramon Shadowstep, but requires more active casting and a niche build/playstyle.

Critical Melee + Naramon melee Passives is a much broader approach for viable melee, that I concur.

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What I think is really interesting about this is the full circle that happened with Valkyr when these mods were introduced. 

Before U17.5, Valkyr could use a melee weapon  for good damage, or could use Hysteria to have bad damage in exchange for invincibility. 

After U17.5 but before Shadow Debt, Valkyr's playstyle was pretty much "use Hysteria or GTFO," because Hysteria did astronomically more damage than any melee weapon in the game, on top of providing invincibility. 

After Shadow Debt, Valkyr can use a melee weapon for absolutely incredible damage, or can use Hysteria for lower damage in exchange for invincibility. 

I like how now there are meaningful playstyle choices with Valkyr once again, instead of just "use Hysteria."

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