Innate Punch-Through For Hitscan Snipers, Please

[Dr.Evergreen]

Give punch through to all Tenno and Grineer rifles, about 1.2m~1.8m deep.

 

I wonder, just why? only corpus guns have their innate punch through effects.

If snipetron and vandal have no punch through, I could understand what DE think; but this is little bit...confusing.

Snipertrons have 2.5m, Lanka have 5m with fully charged, but why 0 for others?

 

I ran a corpus survival sortie recently, and the condition was 'only snipers'.

yup, it was a tough mission. I even picked my Maggie P, but her tenno power was not enough...:-(

That was a nullifiers' apocalypse. nullifiers were stay together, so bubbles were stacked,

and only frames that have specific abilities could check them...even 5-forma'd Vectis P was not that much powerful.

 

So many players said, 'give snipers punch through and buff crit rate, reload, blah blah'

because snipers are against the Warframe's recent meta.

Crawling enemies, narrow maps...these are not that much good environment for high-zoomed / slow-firing guns.

Many people know that buffing snipers is easier than reworking entire maps and enemies.

I don't say that 'give snipers special punch through so that they can penetrate bubbles',

but you know, slight buff for snipers is much needed. -by the way, when can we get a buff for scythes?-

 

Oh, I already read the pinned megathread, so it's not an overlap;

maybe this is just a mere rant post, but please consider as soon as possible.

Recently we have Vulka Wraith, and I believe it was a sign for 2nd sniper fix...

 

p.s hey, I just felt that my sniper bullets are missing targets very often.

I thought this is just a problem from hipfire accuracy nerf, but it seems not.

spent a bullet but it seems disappeared, both zoomed and unzoomed shots.

why are these happen? this is very annoying. I don't use heavy calibur on sniper guns...

Edited February 3, 2016 by Chantepleur

[taiiat]

yet again:

 

if all Sniper Rifles feature Punch-Through, then it is no longer a feature on the ones that have it currently.

there is a bottomless ocean of other features that each Weapon in the Archetype can feature to set them apart from the others.

[DarcnyssWolfe]

yet again:

if all Sniper Rifles feature Punch-Through, then it is no longer a feature on the ones that have it currently.

there is a bottomless ocean of other features that each Weapon in the Archetype can feature to set them apart from the others.

They could still feature it, but with a lesser amount. Kohm has proven to me that just 1m punch through can make an insane difference. Also this is the first I've ever heard someone say no to snipers having innate punch through.

[taiiat]

They could still feature it, but with a lesser amount. Kohm has proven to me that just 1m punch through can make an insane difference.

 

Also this is the first I've ever heard someone say no to snipers having innate punch through.

having enough Punch-Through to pierce a single Enemy in almost all situations is identical to having 10x that amount, though.

only in quite niche situations can a difference be noticed.

 

i don't approve of homogenizing all Equipment to have all the same features 'just because'.

Equipment should be different from one another.

Edited February 1, 2016 by taiiat

[(PSN)DBR87]

Innate Punch Through should be a trait for all Sniper Rifles, just as it is with bows. I would say .5 or .75 of a meter. Snipers already have unique individual features with their varying scope bonuses.

 

Logically, any high powered rifle, such as a sniper's rifle, would easily pierce through light cover and body armor. I guarantee a Flak Jacket with sappy plates or a Kevlar helmet is not going to stop a 50 cal round from a M107A1 from wrecking your insides. Seeing how this game takes place in the future, you'd think a Rubico or a Vectis could fire a round through someone much like a sniper's rifle of today would.

 

Another thing, both Snipers and Bows lack the crowd control of ARs, shotguns, and launchers. Bows get compensated for this in punch through so why not snipers receiving the same compensation?

Edited February 1, 2016 by (PS4)DBR87

[fatpig84]

Nitpicking time.

 

Bows don't get punch through.

They get penetration only if they hit the target.

Or how I call it, "drag through" since arrows have a tendency to pin one target and dragging its body while impaling the unfortunate fellow behind him.

 

The Boltor Prime boast similar characteristics, so despite its on paper DPS being lower than many new guns, if it can nail 2 to 3 targets, it actually boasts a very impressive damage and DPS rate.

But shoot the bow or boltor against a thin railing, the arrow / bolt will get stuck there.

Same for crossbows like Rakta Ballistica as well.

 

So that is not punch through.

[RafaelFuchs]

Nitpicking time.

 

Bows don't get punch through.

They get penetration only if they hit the target.

Or how I call it, "drag through" since arrows have a tendency to pin one target and dragging its body while impaling the unfortunate fellow behind him.

 

The Boltor Prime boast similar characteristics, so despite its on paper DPS being lower than many new guns, if it can nail 2 to 3 targets, it actually boasts a very impressive damage and DPS rate.

But shoot the bow or boltor against a thin railing, the arrow / bolt will get stuck there.

Same for crossbows like Rakta Ballistica as well.

 

So that is not punch through.

No. They have punchthrough. I shoot through thin cover all the time with them. 

[Azamagon]

Nitpicking time.

 

Bows don't get punch through.

They get penetration only if they hit the target.

Or how I call it, "drag through" since arrows have a tendency to pin one target and dragging its body while impaling the unfortunate fellow behind him.

 

The Boltor Prime boast similar characteristics, so despite its on paper DPS being lower than many new guns, if it can nail 2 to 3 targets, it actually boasts a very impressive damage and DPS rate.

But shoot the bow or boltor against a thin railing, the arrow / bolt will get stuck there.

Same for crossbows like Rakta Ballistica as well.

 

So that is not punch through.

Bows have both PT (on fully charged shots only though) AND that pinning effect. Try shooting enemies behind cover/doors and you'll see.

[Chipputer]

yet again:

 

if all Sniper Rifles feature Punch-Through, then it is no longer a feature on the ones that have it currently.

there is a bottomless ocean of other features that each Weapon in the Archetype can feature to set them apart from the others.

You can't just say it's a bottomless ocean and not pull a few examples from said bottomless ocean.

EDIT: Said pulling needs to also fit in line with the weapon type, which is a long ranged, high powered, relatively slow firing rifle.

 

Quite frankly, a high powered rifle that's designed to kill high priority targets should be the first weapon to naturally have punch through. But nope, primitive bows can shoot through a wall but the rifle designed to be lethal at long distances can't.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Chipputer

[taiiat]

Snipers already have unique individual features with their varying scope bonuses.

yeah, like +Base Damage. since almost all of them have that. with Rubico and Lanka being the only ones that are actually unique.

+Base Damage is definitely a unique feature.

 

and is still not a reason why an entire Archetype should all share a feature and therefore the Weapons that do have them not having those as a feature anymore, as they all do it then.

 

 

this is a digital universe, we can do whatever we want. 'everything should have a feature because raisons' is not a strong argument.

Snipetron Series is logical, Lanka is logical.

should a Vulkar have Punch-Through? i'd probably say it fits theme better to have a decent chance to make Enemies faceplant.

should a Vectis have Punch-Through? i'd rather say shots that don't Kill cause misery for the Enemy.

should a Rubico have Punch-Through? i'd rather classify it as a lighter Sniper Rifle that fills the role of a super heavy DMR, for that shot combo by shooting quickly.

 

should Bows have Punch-Through? good question. Paris Series definitely makes sense, Daikyu defniitely makes sense. not as sure about Cernos Series or Dread.

Attica is questionable.

 

 

at the end of the day, 'why should Sniper Rifles have Innate Punch-Through'? for most Players, probably.... because they want to not have a Punch-Through Mod on so they can add another Elemental. which isn't a very great reason to want it.

the 'make everything innate' view is a strange one. we have Mods, what are they for if we make everything, Utility or not, innate to everything in certain Archetypes.

should Bullet Hoses have innate Ammo Mutation? absolutely not, but... is a similar request to innate Punch-Through on all Precision Weapons.

 

You can't just say it's a bottomless ocean and not pull a few examples from said bottomless ocean.

you may find people eventually get tired of being a broken record and repeating the same things over and over while everyone goes through the same steps and words in their discussions over and over because nobody knows how to use the Search Function and just starts new Threads saying the same things as 30 Threads before it.

 

because i'm definitely getting tired of repeating the same things over and over.

[YasaiTsume]

Punch through should only be reserved for Sniper Rifles and certain shotguns.

Anything else could probably do without it. 

 

(I can nit pick that, Bow's body pinning mechanic is also unique to them, because logically an Arrow does not have enough Velocity to push through the entire body, let alone pierce the skull. It is already a very good feature for them to ragdoll enemies into other enemies, and pinning them to walls.)

[Dr.Evergreen]

at the end of the day, 'why should Sniper Rifles have Innate Punch-Through'? for most Players, probably.... because they want to not have a Punch-Through Mod on so they can add another Elemental. which isn't a very great reason to want it.

the 'make everything innate' view is a strange one. we have Mods, what are they for if we make everything, Utility or not, innate to everything in certain Archetypes.

should Bullet Hoses have innate Ammo Mutation? absolutely not, but... is a similar request to innate Punch-Through on all Precision Weapons.

 

you may find people eventually get tired of being a broken record and repeating the same things over and over while everyone goes through the same steps and words in their discussions over and over because nobody knows how to use the Search Function and just starts new Threads saying the same things as 30 Threads before it.

 

because i'm definitely getting tired of repeating the same things over and over.

 

I respect your opinion but I cannot agree.

I will use Shred on my Vulka Wraith whether it takes innate punch-through or not.

Elemental Damage? Well...I'm using Terminal Velocity and Adhesive Blast for my Secura Penta.

If I have some more options like, incendiary bullet mod, ragdoll mod, or armor piercing mod for snipers,

I gladly take it. but there is no such funny mod. so you may think elementals, right? but NO.

If I am a power creep nerd, I would just throw away my lovely sniper guns, and pick Tonkor for every missions.

but that's freaking boring you know.

 

You said this is a digital space, then why do the snipers can't take the punch through bullets? even some are already have it.

I don't beg DE to give me some extra elemental mod slot. that is rather close to 'weapon exilus' argument.

No one forces us to put the dmg mods into our weapons as i said below.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Chantepleur

[taiiat]

or armor piercing mod for snipers

 

You said this is a digital space, then why do the snipers can't take the punch through bullets? even some are already have it.

depending on what your definition of that is, Damage Types with positive Modifiers to Armor already fulfill that.

 

because this is a game, we want things to be different and interesting, otherwise, why does it all exist?

unique features gets Players to have reasons to use all kinds of things. while the traditional failure of a design of 'muh progression' always has everyone using just a few percent of everything you've created, a complete waste of your Development Time. and makes for a necessary content release speed that nobody can keep up with.

[(PSN)DBR87]

 

 

this is a digital universe, we can do whatever we want. 'everything should have a feature because raisons' is not a strong argument.

Snipetron Series is logical, Lanka is logical.

should a Vulkar have Punch-Through? i'd probably say it fits theme better to have a decent chance to make Enemies faceplant.

should a Vectis have Punch-Through? i'd rather say shots that don't Kill cause misery for the Enemy.

should a Rubico have Punch-Through? i'd rather classify it as a lighter Sniper Rifle that fills the role of a super heavy DMR, for that shot combo by shooting quickly.

 

should Bows have Punch-Through? good question. Paris Series definitely makes sense, Daikyu defniitely makes sense. not as sure about Cernos Series or Dread.

Attica is questionable.

 

 

My REASON Sniper Rifles should have innate punch through is because they are weapons known for shooting high caliber rounds, which in our time period can easily pierce light cover and your typical enemy target. So it stands to reason that in the future where ninjas are fighting clones in space their sniper rifles have a bit more punch and penetration. No, I am not saying the game should be so realistic that even certain assualt rifles should have the natural ability to pierce targets/light cover depending on the caliber of the round, what I am saying is that Punch Through is a trait of Sniper Rifles now, so it stands to reason it would be a trait of Snipers in the future where the Technocyte virus has infected a large portion of the population.

 

And the Attica does not have punch through but the bolts do have a fallow through on kill. Only the traditional bows such as Dread, Paris Prime, Daikyu, R Cernos, etc have innate punch through on fully charged shots. The Attica does not because it is fully automatic. It already has decent crowd control.

 

The reason for Snipers having Innate Punch Through is because of LOGIC not 'just because' like you are insinuating. Hell, Rubico, Vectis, and Vulkar all fire high powered rounds, or at least rounds that have greater than 200 base damage. That is more then Latron's 80 base damage. So it stands to reason that snipers fire a higher caliber of round that does more damage in the universe of Warframe. So why is it a BEAM weapon like the Lanka, a weapon that shoots a projectile of pure electrical energy at base has innate punch through but Sniper Rifles that shoot an actual round, presumably larger than other moderately high powered rifles like Tiberon and Latron Prime, don't have the ability to piece targets/light cover? How does electricity naturally piece what a large bullet can't?

 

I am almost certain that if Rubico had innate Punch Through most people would replace Shred with Fast Hands or Wild Fire/Magazine Warp as much as people complain about the reload. I also hear similar complains about the Vulkar Wraith. Hell, some might put a crit mod in there instead of Shred. I personally would love to replace Metal Auger on my Vectis for something else. More element damage isn't the only option if we are given Punch Through, and for the most part, a nice percent of the snipers in this game can one shot level 100 enemies already so what does another element really matter when the 2-3 people put on already do the damage needed to kill hard targets? You're worried about people adding more damage to their snipers if they get innate Punch Through when a Gas/Electric Lanka already clears rooms of Level 200 Corpus like they're still on Mercury...

Edited February 2, 2016 by (PS4)DBR87

[taiiat]

And the Attica does not have punch through

 

The reason for Snipers having Innate Punch Through is because of 'LOGIC'

How does electricity naturally piece what a large bullet can't?

ofcourse it doesn't. i don't know where you read that i insinuated that it does already. you added words when you read it.

 

 

'logic' is fallatical as little that is logical applies to Warframe.

and you decide to selectively apply 'logic' to fit what you want.

 

Lanka is a Coil Gun. that is why. the Electric Damage is not particularly logical for it but is beneficial for the way Damage works so nobody minds at all. as Coil Guns do not impart any Electrical charge to the Projectile, only propelling them with ElectroMagnetic force.

but has always been plausible that there is a condensing chamber in the rear of the Weapon which takes solid feed ammunition and superheats it to a Plasmatic State, and then uses the Coil Accelerators. as that fits Corpus technology.

 

 

i prove why they shouldn't all perform the same, and have dozens of times suggested other unique traits other Weapons could have that sets them apart.

the other side has yet to prove why all Weapons in an Archetype should be the same at something.

Edited February 2, 2016 by taiiat

[Chipputer]

the other side has yet to prove why all Weapons in an Archetype should be the same at something.

Or you've ignored  the numerous times people have been in Sorties using only snipers and realized that without giving up a mod slot they're stuck with a slow firing, single targeting weapon that just can't hold up to the usability and utility of any other weapon in the game.

 

I don't need to prove to you what is blatantly obvious by simply using the weapon.

 

Adding gimmicky, "oh but this one knocks them over and this one makes them panic," effects do not suit a weapon that fires one round at a time, relatively slowly, and is intended to take high priority targets out before they become a threat. It's awfully silly of you to suggest, "make them unique," by giving them gimmicks that don't even fit the weapon archetype.

 

"Yes sir, I shot him in the face with my rifle. No sir, he didn't die. No sir, the guy behind him didn't die. Well, sir, instead the one in front just kind of... fell down and then got back up again."

But please, tell me again how a high powered, slow firing rifle should knock down targets rather than pierce through said targets with its... high powered, slow firing rounds.

 

EDIT: For the record, if you want to go into a topic and not repeat yourself, why not link the thread, rather than getting prissy about how sick you are of saying it over and over again? I don't know you from Adam. If you want to discuss something actually discuss it.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Chipputer

[Azamagon]

The reason I also promote that all Snipers need various amounts of Punchthrough is rather simple: Because they don't fit well in the game without it, since this is mainly a hordekilling game. And since they really hurt for modding space, modding for Punchthrough is actually rather difficult to get in there.

 

Compare that to:

 

* Automatic weapons have lots of speed, great for hordes. At max, they tend to just need ONE QoL mod: Ammo mutation. That is solveable with ammo restores too though. Punchthrough can also be added for further hordemurdering, which is easy for them, as they generally have room for it.

* Explosives weapons have AoE, which is great for hordes. Similar to Automatics, they maybe need Ammo mutation at times, but that can once again be solved with ammo restores. And they really don't need punchthrough.

* Bows may not be awesome against hordes, instead being awesome and RELIABLE heavy unit killers, but they have punchthrough and ragdoll-death to help them out in the horde-regard, as well as really quick reloads. Bows generally don't need QoL mods, they work fine as they are. These are heavy-killer-weapons done right: They excel at their role (single target killing), but are flexible and unclunky enough to not utterly suck in other regards (they can still do decently against hordes)

 

Snipers have nothing. Yes, they might be designed as heavy unit killers, but mainly only if you are lucky (lack of reliability due to crit RNG) and yes, they might have nice zoom (which is mostly useless though, although I do actually like the variable zooming, that is all they needed in regards to feel unique).

Then on top of that: No puncthrough and horrible mag:reload ratios. You just can't mod them without leaving a really major flaw in them: You need crit mods to get (unreliable) HVT-killing power, you need reloadspeed to not fall asleep between fights, and you need PT to have any decent chance against hordes. Slap horrible hipfire accuracy on as well as a further unnecessary problem they didn't need to make them EVEN WORSE for hordekilling, woo! -.-

 

But modding for all that is just not possible. Which is why Snipers suck. The scope bonuses and bonus combo stuff? All useless fluff, throw those 2 ideas into the garbage bin. What all Snipers need is punchthrough, reliable critstats and some reloadbuffs (3 seconds or more for such small magazines is just downright torture), as well as better hipfire accuracy. Then MAYBE we'd see people using snipers here and there.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Azamagon

[(PSN)DBR87]

ofcourse it doesn't. i don't know where you read that i insinuated that it does already. you added words when you read it.

 

 

'logic' is fallatical as little that is logical applies to Warframe.

and you decide to selectively apply 'logic' to fit what you want.

 

Lanka is a Coil Gun. that is why. the Electric Damage is not particularly logical for it but is beneficial for the way Damage works so nobody minds at all. as Coil Guns do not impart any Electrical charge to the Projectile, only propelling them with ElectroMagnetic force.

but has always been plausible that there is a condensing chamber in the rear of the Weapon which takes solid feed ammunition and superheats it to a Plasmatic State, and then uses the Coil Accelerators. as that fits Corpus technology.

 

 

i prove why they shouldn't all perform the same, and have dozens of times suggested other unique traits other Weapons could have that sets them apart.

the other side has yet to prove why all Weapons in an Archetype should be the same at something.

 

If it is plausible that there is a "condensing chamber in the rear of the weapon" than it is plausible that any sniper rifle can fire through light cover and enemy targets. I am not saying all sniper rifles should be the same.

 

I am saying all sniper rifles should be able to shoot through targets and light cover. You know, like sniper rifles do in real life. You even compared the Lanka to a real life coil gun. I am comparing the Vulkar to a real life M107. I have fired one once a year for five years in the military. It can shoot through a Flak Jacket and out the other end. Why can't a Vulkar pierce through a Corpus jump suit and hit the guy behind him naturally?

 

No, I don't selectively apply logic to fit where I want. That is not how logic works. It's logical that when a Warframe strong enough to bullet jump with a 8 foot great sword, two magnums, and a quiver of 180 armor piercing arrows, then they should be able to draw back and fire an arrow with enough force to pin a presumably 300+ heavily armored trooper to a wall. You on the other hand are simply saying "Lanka loses 1 unique feature if every sniper has punch through." That is it. So what? Every traditional bow has punch through and there are clear differences between the Daikyu, Cernos, Dread and Paris. So what if we give every sniper punch through? Rubico still has a revolver magazine. Lanka still has elemental damage and a charge mechanic and is NON hit scan. Vecis and Vectis P still have low magazines with fast reloads and low zoom scopes. Regardless if you add punch through all the snipers act differently, feel differently. Nothing is loss if all snipers have punch through but utility is gained for all of them.

 

So what is your issue with Snipers having innate punch through? They do in real life so why not in the future of Warframe, especially since you are so quick to compare Lanka to a modern coil gun.

 

BTW:

 

log·ic

ˈläjik/

noun

 

1. 1.

   reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.

    

 

I am applying logic in the confines of Warframe; a future in which space ninjas have access to weaponry far superior then what we have now and these weapons are wielded by individuals far more capable in combat than us. So if a sniper of today can pierce armor. Why not all snipers of Warframe's future?

[taiiat]

You even compared the Lanka to a real life coil gun.

 

Every traditional bow has punch through and there are clear differences between the Daikyu, Cernos, Dread and Paris.

 

Nothing is loss if all snipers have punch through but utility is gained for all of them.

 

'reality logic' again

i don't compare, it's Description says it's a Coil Gun. therefore it is one.

 

 

Cernos, Dread, and Paris are effectively the same though.

Cernos has slightly higher Crit Chance than Paris w/ higher Damage to help it normalize to about the same Damage as Paris.

Dread and Paris Prime are effectively identical. Cernos only has a lower Crit Chance to these other two Bows.

they're basically the same Weapons.

 

no, the two Sniper Rifles that have Punch-Through as a feature now, lose that feature. yes, a highly desired type of Utility is then present on the entire Archetype. less unique traits rather than more unique traits isn't a very interesting proposition for a Video Game.

 

 

you're still selectively applying 'logic'. if it's logical that this should have Punch-Through because 'insert stuff from reality to justify', then all Guns should have some level of Punch-Through, with lighter Weapons having less of it. and all Guns should apply force knockback, with lighter Weapons having less of it. blah blah.

taking all unique features that are here and there, and applying them to everything makes things in a Video Game logical and accurate to reality.

 

again, there's extremely little that is logical in Warframe. 'because in reality' is not an argument as to why balance should be changed in a Video Game that is not attempting to be or seem realistic.

[IggySnow]

yep. bows have it, which in real life cant even punch through a tightly woven hay target, but snipers? nope. They are only the most accurate and high powered rifles that in real life can practically shoot through entire cars plus their engines.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

 

But modding for all that is just not possible. Which is why Snipers suck. The scope bonuses and bonus combo stuff? All useless fluff, throw those 2 ideas into the garbage bin. What all Snipers need is punchthrough, reliable critstats and some reloadbuffs (3 seconds or more for such small magazines is just downright torture), as well as better hipfire accuracy. Then MAYBE we'd see people using snipers here and there.

 

 

You make some good points but I felt like you should have also compared them to shotguns, which have a larger clip size (usually) and much more damage while being useful at close-long range ( upto around 50 meters )

 

The sancti Tigris does enough base damage already that you can equip seeking fury ( the punch through and reload speed mod ) that makes it feel like a vectis... but better... and non crit based. It can shred through enemies close and far with 1 shot. 

 

It only does like 45 Thousand damage per shot that goes through enemies, has reasonable range, can be fired accurately via hip fire or aimed down (my personal build with the punchthrough.)

 

Even the other shotguns with their massive damage can function as snipers (vaykor hek) while still being great against crowds or single targets.

 

Versus Snipers...

 

Crit based with rather low crit stats... (vectis prime only has 25% base crit and 2.0 crit damage... I feel like it should have the same crit chance as the paris but have higher crit damage or atleast innate punch through...)

 

The scope rework was atleast something... +15% damage while zoomed is nice but most snipers can lose their combo just from the time it takes to reload the gun... And fast hands/depleted reload are not an option as snipers need all the damage they can get...

 

depleted reload isn't even worth it... Maybe if it added crit chance/damage or made the last bullet in the clip deal double damage. (sacrificing a bullet so one bullet does the damage of two bullets! Would go great with primed chamber.)

 

 

 

no, the two Sniper Rifles that have Punch-Through as a feature now, lose that feature. yes, a highly desired type of Utility is then present on the entire Archetype. less unique traits rather than more unique traits isn't a very interesting proposition for a Video Game.

 

 

And explain to me how the two sniper rifles lose their punch-through if it becomes an innate ability of all snipers? Im sure anyone who uses those weapons will cry a river of tears of how their weapons stayed exactly the same. And snipers have the smallest utility of any weapon for the following reasons:

 

They don't have the damage or flexibility of shotguns (high damage usually, can be modded effectively in different ways)

they don't have the fire speed or practicality of an auto rifle ( high ammo, can kill multiple enemies very quickly, high ammo pool )

they don't have the crit or the punch through of a bow ( bows are much easier to use while staying mobile and have much better crit properties as will as the much desired innate punch through)

They don't have the damage or the aoe devastation of a launcher weapon. They have the same amount of ammo though. 

They don't have the usefulness of pistols that can apply guaranteed status effects with high multishot or devastate enemies with high multishot crits

(and of course the pistols that have high fire rate/damage that act like auto rifles with higher multishot)

 

So exactly... What do snipers have? 

 

Low ammo

Low fire rate 

low crit chance/damage

no innate punch through ( combined with low fire rate makes status sniper builds almost non-existent )

No Crowd control options or aoe damage

The only thing they have is decent damage base damage per bullet and a small cult following who love snipers despite them being the worst guns in the game.

 

Compare the vectis prime to the lex prime.

 

Vectis does a bit more damage, They have the same amount of crit chance and damage except pistols can get much higher multishot/fire rate with having a much larger ammo pool and mobility

 

Ultimately the Lex Prime is a better gun then the vectis despite having lower damage because:

 

Pistols guaranteed 1 addition bullet.. maybe 2

Pistols have more crit chance with a slightly lower crit damage ( same base chance, However the difference comes from the mods ). If all three bullets crit will do much more damage then if both sniper bullets crit

Higher Fire Rate

Larger ammo pool 

Pistol ammo more common then sniper ammo

Larger magazine size (combined with multishot/fire rate and other factors make this weapon be able to perform as an excellent status weapon)

Accurate regardless of scoped or not

User friendly even when mobile/not mobile

 

So in the time it takes a vectis to kill two people and reload, a lex prime has already killed 8 people

 

So somehow you feel its justified that a high powered sniper is outperformed by not only a bow, but also a small sidearm? When was the last time you saw a bow/pistol of being able to penetrate the armor of a tank?

 

I would make one or more of the following changes to sniper rifles.

 

Sniper rifles ignore enemy armor (scales with puncture damage). Sniper shots that are blocked by shields deal 25% of their impact damage directly to the enemies health

 

Varying punch through depending on the puncture damage, The two snipers that already have punch-through would not be changed

 

Increasing crit chance/damage

 

Adding a special sniper augment mod

 

increasing the size of sniper bullets to allow slightly more leniency to shots

 

Increasing hip fire accuracy

 

increasing damage to be comparable/around the damage of the opticor 

 

Other ideas

 

snipers have higher body part/limb multipliers

 

Sniper exclusive mods that add different effects like adding a thunderbolt mod that always causes the bullet to explode/shatter dealing aoe damage applying status effects to any enemy in the aoe range and or 1.5 multishot

Sniper exilus mod/aura mod (for those shiny new event mods)

Larger ammo pool/Larger amounts of ammo picked up

Combo Counter also increases reload speed/accuracy 

Bullets ricochet when hitting a surface at an angle and will seek out enemies ( could be an exilus mod )

 

As it stands... Even with the much appreciated sniper buff they could use a little bit more love...

[TangyBlueBerry]

having enough Punch-Through to pierce a single Enemy in almost all situations is identical to having 10x that amount, though.

only in quite niche situations can a difference be noticed.

 

i don't approve of homogenizing all Equipment to have all the same features 'just because'.

Equipment should be different from one another.

 

Exactly, and high powered high caliber rounds should be able to go past the flesh of a bloody runner. Snipers are literally designed in real life to shoot at things behind cover. Some more than others.

 

Why the hell does an arrow go past a solid door, but a high caliber round can't go past flesh?

[DarcnyssWolfe]

You make some good points but I felt like you should have also compared them to shotguns, which have a larger clip size (usually) and much more damage while being useful at close-long range ( upto around 50 meters )

The sancti Tigris does enough base damage already that you can equip seeking fury ( the punch through and reload speed mod ) that makes it feel like a vectis... but better... and non crit based. It can shred through enemies close and far with 1 shot.

It only does like 45 Thousand damage per shot that goes through enemies, has reasonable range, can be fired accurately via hip fire or aimed down (my personal build with the punchthrough.)

Even the other shotguns with their massive damage can function as snipers (vaykor hek) while still being great against crowds or single targets.

Versus Snipers...

Crit based with rather low crit stats... (vectis prime only has 25% base crit and 2.0 crit damage... I feel like it should have the same crit chance as the paris but have higher crit damage or atleast innate punch through...)

The scope rework was atleast something... +15% damage while zoomed is nice but most snipers can lose their combo just from the time it takes to reload the gun... And fast hands/depleted reload are not an option as snipers need all the damage they can get...

depleted reload isn't even worth it... Maybe if it added crit chance/damage or made the last bullet in the clip deal double damage. (sacrificing a bullet so one bullet does the damage of two bullets! Would go great with primed chamber.)

And explain to me how the two sniper rifles lose their punch-through if it becomes an innate ability of all snipers? Im sure anyone who uses those weapons will cry a river of tears of how their weapons stayed exactly the same. And snipers have the smallest utility of any weapon for the following reasons:

They don't have the damage or flexibility of shotguns (high damage usually, can be modded effectively in different ways)

they don't have the fire speed or practicality of an auto rifle ( high ammo, can kill multiple enemies very quickly, high ammo pool )

they don't have the crit or the punch through of a bow ( bows are much easier to use while staying mobile and have much better crit properties as will as the much desired innate punch through)

They don't have the damage or the aoe devastation of a launcher weapon. They have the same amount of ammo though.

They don't have the usefulness of pistols that can apply guaranteed status effects with high multishot or devastate enemies with high multishot crits

(and of course the pistols that have high fire rate/damage that act like auto rifles with higher multishot)

So exactly... What do snipers have?

Low ammo

Low fire rate

low crit chance/damage

no innate punch through ( combined with low fire rate makes status sniper builds almost non-existent )

No Crowd control options or aoe damage

The only thing they have is decent damage base damage per bullet and a small cult following who love snipers despite them being the worst guns in the game.

Compare the vectis prime to the lex prime.

Vectis does a bit more damage, They have the same amount of crit chance and damage except pistols can get much higher multishot/fire rate with having a much larger ammo pool and mobility

Ultimately the Lex Prime is a better gun then the vectis despite having lower damage because:

Pistols guaranteed 1 addition bullet.. maybe 2

Pistols have more crit chance with a slightly lower crit damage ( same base chance, However the difference comes from the mods ). If all three bullets crit will do much more damage then if both sniper bullets crit

Higher Fire Rate

Larger ammo pool

Pistol ammo more common then sniper ammo

Larger magazine size (combined with multishot/fire rate and other factors make this weapon be able to perform as an excellent status weapon)

Accurate regardless of scoped or not

User friendly even when mobile/not mobile

So in the time it takes a vectis to kill two people and reload, a lex prime has already killed 8 people

So somehow you feel its justified that a high powered sniper is outperformed by not only a bow, but also a small sidearm? When was the last time you saw a bow/pistol of being able to penetrate the armor of a tank?

I would make one or more of the following changes to sniper rifles.

Sniper rifles ignore enemy armor (scales with puncture damage). Sniper shots that are blocked by shields deal 25% of their impact damage directly to the enemies health

Varying punch through depending on the puncture damage, The two snipers that already have punch-through would not be changed

Increasing crit chance/damage

Adding a special sniper augment mod

increasing the size of sniper bullets to allow slightly more leniency to shots

Increasing hip fire accuracy

increasing damage to be comparable/around the damage of the opticor

Other ideas

snipers have higher body part/limb multipliers

Sniper exclusive mods that add different effects like adding a thunderbolt mod that always causes the bullet to explode/shatter dealing aoe damage applying status effects to any enemy in the aoe range and or 1.5 multishot

Sniper exilus mod/aura mod (for those shiny new event mods)

Larger ammo pool/Larger amounts of ammo picked up

Combo Counter also increases reload speed/accuracy

Bullets ricochet when hitting a surface at an angle and will seek out enemies ( could be an exilus mod )

As it stands... Even with the much appreciated sniper buff they could use a little bit more love...

This, all this

[Salenstormwing]

Want inate punch-through with a Sniper rifle? Get yourself a Snipertron. Only problem is the only way to get one currently is when DE has a Tactical Alert with one as a reward, like Project Undermine, where it was a reward.

[(PSN)DBR87]

i don't compare, it's Description says it's a Coil Gun. therefore it is one.

 

 

Cernos, Dread, and Paris are effectively the same though.

Cernos has slightly higher Crit Chance than Paris w/ higher Damage to help it normalize to about the same Damage as Paris.

Dread and Paris Prime are effectively identical. Cernos only has a lower Crit Chance to these other two Bows.

they're basically the same Weapons.

 

no, the two Sniper Rifles that have Punch-Through as a feature now, lose that feature. yes, a highly desired type of Utility is then present on the entire Archetype. less unique traits rather than more unique traits isn't a very interesting proposition for a Video Game.

 

 

you're still selectively applying 'logic'. if it's logical that this should have Punch-Through because 'insert stuff from reality to justify', then all Guns should have some level of Punch-Through, with lighter Weapons having less of it. and all Guns should apply force knockback, with lighter Weapons having less of it. blah blah.

taking all unique features that are here and there, and applying them to everything makes things in a Video Game logical and accurate to reality.

 

again, there's extremely little that is logical in Warframe. 'because in reality' is not an argument as to why balance should be changed in a Video Game that is not attempting to be or seem realistic.

 

No, the in game description for the Lanka says it's a corpus sniper rifle that "Fires a high velocity projectile through magnetic induction". The community driven Wiki Page suggest it was modeled from a real life coil gun. The developers didn't say that, we did. The Lanka is the upgraded replacement of the Snipetron because of Lore reasons. That is the official statement from Digital Extremes. The Snipetron's in game description is " a powerful and accurate rifle that sports optical zoom capabilities. Perfect for long range engagements."

 

The difference between major damage types makes each bow unique. Dread being the best to use against flesh. It dismembers targets for more Desecrating. It has a unique sound. R Cernos does impact and staggers anything it doesn't straight out kill. It has a syndicate blast. It has the fastest charge speed. They are not essentially the "same bow", the top bows are balanced to be side grades to each other. If you think Bows are essentially all then every continuous beam weapon must essentially be the same.

 

No, I don't think all guns should have innate punch through because in reality not all rounds leave exit wounds in our reality. Most rounds are meant to ricochet inside the body to cause damage to internals.

 

If every Sniper has punch through, Lanka and Snipetron don't loose that feature. They still have it, too. Some people in this community just want a feature added to the overall sniper archetype so they have the ability to take out multiple targets naturally. Nothing is lost in this process. Lanka still does the most base damage, has a charge mechanic, and is of a pure element. Snipetron is still an inferior weapon in the sniper class of weapons regardless of it's innate punch through our not. I would just like to see an innate punch through of 1 meter on all snipers. Lanka and Snipetron can keep their natural 2.5 meter punch through.

 

But fine... It's clear you have your opinion and I have mine. I respect you have your on opinions on the subject but at the end of the day I still believe every sniper should have some sort of small punch through to help them take on crowds of enemies that faster firing weapons do with out having punch through. As it stands now, snipers are limited to only being used on hard targets and the only sniper that has a bit more flexibility in that is the Vectis and Vectis Prime because of low mags and short reloads. They're in a better position to handle hordes than most other sniper rifles.