Excalibur's Radial Javelin Synergy

[Artekkor]

So, i recently picked Excalibur again and met with one interesting problem: i realized i dont' exactly like current Radial Javelin at it's current form.... DIdin't like it in the past too, when it was an ultimate.

 

What's wrong with it: it's way too simple, yet week. You press 3, you deal damage. That's it. Not even exactly good damage, just 1000. Good for weak enemies on low-mid tier missions.

 

So i thought: since DE likes synergising (and so do i) why not give some to Radial Javelin?

Examples

1) Dealing bonus damage when enemies are Radial Blinded

2) Dealing bonus damage when Exalted Blade is activated

3) When Exalted Blade is activated: Radial Javelin counts as melee attack adding to melee combo counter and dealing bonus damage to Radial Blinded enemies

 

Just like Saryn uses 4 only after using 2+1 or any other combination that leads to enemies being viral'd and toxin'd to get the best possible effect.

 

I really love Synergising concepts so i'd be happy to see something like this happening. Because i simply don't feel like raw 1000 damage even worth it that much. I know there is also a stun, but it's so short that i don't think it can be counted as redeeming quality.

[RagingGrizzly]

I like this idea, because the only thing I use Jav for is its augment for my EB... :P (Does the augment count as some sort of synergy? XD )

 

+1

Edited February 3, 2016 by PUR3K1LL3R

[Fate0]

Agreed i have long said Radial Javelin needs something. Either allow the javelins that don't kill enemies to explode after x seconds for knockdown, applying a bleeding proc, or just turn it into a large aoe shockwave instead of javelins that knockdown and make affected enemies take more damage from his other abilities and melee attacks only. I doubt they would make this ability scale with melee mods

Edited February 3, 2016 by Fate0

[Artekkor]

I like this idea, because the only thing I use Jav for is its augment for my EB... :P (Does the augment count as some sort of synergy? XD )

 

+1

 

It does... Pretty much the only way to redeem this thing and make it worth using. Not because it's awesome by itself but because it MAKES you feel awesome.

When the game makes you feel awesome - it does a good job.

 

Edit: doesn't mean it has to be only achiveble as an augment that takes away from your build capacity.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Artek94

[Epsik-kun]

Every time you make a suggestion for Radial Javelin, keep in mind it is the strongest map clearing AoE nuke in the game currently. You can't just buff it without considering RJ build.

[Artekkor]

Every time you make a suggestion for Radial Javelin, keep in mind it is the strongest map clearing AoE nuke in the game currently. You can't just buff it without considering RJ build.

 

Rhino's Stomp is just as good and it is also can by Synergised with Roar for bonus damage and Charge to finish stomped ones off.

They can always reduces RJ's damage if it has to be done. I don't mind it being good only after Synergy, as long as this Synergy worth it.

 

Edit: not to mention that RJ requaires Line of Sight while Stomp does not. And so is Saryn's Miasma.

For a skill that needs a clear Ling of Sight with the enemy... A simple raw damage that is not even that good...

I don't know, maybe RJ builders are fine with it, but i don't feel like it's any fun.

At least there is that one augment...

Edited February 3, 2016 by Artek94

[Fate0]

Every time you make a suggestion for Radial Javelin, keep in mind it is the strongest map clearing AoE nuke in the game currently. You can't just buff it without considering RJ build.

 

for low levels and draco yes, but Radial javelin as a whole and end game ability is lacking in damage and utility. Later enemies you hit really don't take much damage from this and are still standing. Maybe added impact to it?

[Epsik-kun]

for low levels and draco yes, but Radial javelin as a whole and end game ability is lacking in damage and utility. Later enemies you hit really don't take much damage from this and are still standing. Maybe added impact to it?

Only If "low levels" imply doing up to 60 waves of T4D in the fastest possible way. I repeat, you can't just buff RJ without considering RJ Build. 

 

Rhino's Stomp is just as good and it is also can by Synergised with Roar for bonus damage and Charge to finish stomped ones off.

They can always reduces RJ's damage if it has to be done. I don't mind it being good only after Synergy, as long as this Synergy worth it.

Rhino's Stomp is nowhere as good as RJ, even after taking no LoS restriction into an account. Same goes for every single other AoE skill in the game.

I don't only mean "don't overbuff RJ Builds", but also "are you OK with killing Excalibur's only meta-build just to have more synergy for your EBlade which is already strong", if you want to nerf RJ damage or other properties as a compensation.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[Artekkor]

Only If "low levels" imply doing up to 60 waves of T4D in the fastest possible way. I repeat, you can't just buff RJ without considering RJ Build. 

 

Rhino's Stomp is nowhere as good as RJ, even after taking no LoS restriction into an account. Same goes for every single other AoE skill in the game.

 

How is Stomp nowhere as good? For one: they have exactly the same radius.

Javelin: 1000 damage, only way to increase - power strength mods, no other effect, line of sight. Adding 50% power strength simply increases damage to 1500.

Stomp: 800 damage, 1200 after roar, increasing power strength increases both Stomp's damage and Roar's effect giving a multiplying effect. Adding 50% strength to Stomp having 1200 damage and Roar giving 75% effect leading to 2220 damage and NO Line of Sight.  And after that the Stomp leaves enemies stuned for 8 seconds making them easy targets to finish. The only disadvantage of Stomp is Blast damage, and it's only bad against Grineer (Draco).

 

Then again stomp is 4th ability and RJ is 3rd, but it still leaves RJ to be boring to use.

 

And i'm repeating it: they can nerf the damage as long as Synergy will be worth it.

[Epsik-kun]

How is Stomp nowhere as good? For one: they have exactly the same radius.

RJ has higher base damage and much faster casting speed. RJ setup executes usage of buffs, and having multiple buffs will result in diminishing returns. Frost, Oberon, Volt or Ember can provide around x4 damage multiplier for RJ, it won't be the same x4 for Rhino, as he already has his Roar.

 

In the end, AoE DPS of stomps will realistically be maximum around the half of what RJ can achieve. And that's assuming, Rhino will one-shot everything with Stomp, as he can't hit already stomped enemies twice, thus rendering Stomp completely useless as a high level AoE DPS tool.

 

And i'm repeating it: they can nerf the damage as long as Synergy will be worth it.

And I'm repeating it: "are you OK with killing Excalibur's only meta-build just to have more synergy for your EBlade which is already strong?", because I, for instance, am not.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[Artekkor]

 

RJ has higher base damage and much faster casting speed. RJ setup executes usage of buffs, and having multiple buffs will result in diminishing returns. Frost, Oberon, Volt or Ember can provide around x4 damage multiplier for RJ, it won't be the same x4 for Rhino, as he already has his Roar.

 

In the end, AoE DPS of stomps will realistically be maximum around the half of what RJ can achieve. And that's assuming, Rhino will one-shot everything with Stomp, as he can't hit already stomped enemies twice, thus rendering Stomp completely useless as a high level AoE DPS tool.

 

 

I'm sure Roar will apply to all those buffs from Ember and Oberom too multiplying effect in a hardcore manner and actually out-DPS'ing it. Or at the very least catch up. Remember: roar DIRECTLY increase damage dealt so all that bonus damage from skills is increased too.

However, we are talking about solo here, not about some pre-made combo-wombo teams. Couldn't care less for that, those are unavoidable.

 

Yes, maybe Rhino can't spam Stomp like Excalibur does with RJ, but that's exactly the point: "spam to win" as pretty much as old Saryn's "press 4 to win". And it's even less energy-efficient. Isn't that what DE tries to avoid? Being locked to a single skill by always using only it?

And in the end of the day: it's crowd control that wins high-tier games, not damage (sadly). And Stomp provides just that.

[Burnthesteak87]

To be honest Radial Javelin has to be scrapped and reworked. It's slow and doesn't fit the kit.

We need maybe some funny mechanic, or interactive, or making its augment baseline, or even a different utility.

The first thing that comes to my mind is something like: "Killing enemies impaled by RJ gives a stackable effect", would it be Power Strenght buff, or some interaction with its other skills, attack speed for Exalted Blades, 100% critical strike (red crits also) on Slash Dash... It's plenty of nice ideas.

There's no need for RJ to deal damages: Excalibur can deal nice amounts of damage with Exalted Blades alone, skill combos like Radial Blind Augmented+EB.

Don't forget Slash Dash damage scales with melee combo counter, with Body Count can hit hard for a low cost.

Radial Javelin can hit max 12 targets for 2k-3k (in dedicated builds) and eventually is worth using only with its own augment.
Won't talk much about #3 spam builds because they're lazy and also used just to farm, which is in my opinion the wrong way of playing the game.
 

Edited February 5, 2016 by Burnthesteak87

[Epsik-kun]

I'm sure Roar will apply to all those buffs from Ember and Oberom too multiplying effect in a hardcore manner and actually out-DPS'ing it. Or at the very least catch up. Remember: roar DIRECTLY increase damage dealt so all that bonus damage from skills is increased too.

However, we are talking about solo here, not about some pre-made combo-wombo teams. Couldn't care less for that, those are unavoidable.

 

Yes, maybe Rhino can't spam Stomp like Excalibur does with RJ, but that's exactly the point: "spam to win" as pretty much as old Saryn's "press 4 to win". And it's even less energy-efficient. Isn't that what DE tries to avoid? Being locked to a single skill by always using only it?

And in the end of the day: it's crowd control that wins high-tier games, not damage (sadly). And Stomp provides just that.

I repeat, Rhino can't out-DPS RJ Excal given equal setups. It is impossible. He can achieve higher damage per nuke, but not DPS.

 

Whether DE tries to avoid it or not is up to DE. They will eventually rework RJ if its current meta usage concerns them. However, so far RJ stays unchanged since LoS implementation and Excal's rework. The problem with Saryn was that her whole gameplay was essentially degraded to pressing one button no matter what mission she was doing. RJ Excal, on the other hand, requires at least Trinity to work and a dedicated squad to be effective. In solo play RJ Build is close to being useless. Current state of RJ creates diversity in possible Excalibur's builds and playstyles. It also promotes squad synergy, because it pretty much was solely RJ what revived forgotten augments like Freeze Force.

I would also love some synergy between RJ and EBlade, so it won't be just a randomly wasted energy most of the time, however, I repeat - you have to take RJ build into an account, because killing this build and removing a whole another way of playing Excalibur and an important part of the meta isn't the best thing to do, in my opinion.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[Artekkor]

 

I repeat, Rhino can't out-DPS RJ Excal given equal setups. It is impossible. He can achieve higher damage per nuke, but not DPS.

 

I would also love some synergy between RJ and EBlade, so it won't be just a randomly wasted energy most of the time, however, I repeat - you have to take RJ build into an account, because killing this build and removing a whole another way of playing Excalibur and an important part of the meta isn't the best thing to do, in my opinion.

 

 

Maybe you're right.

But still: it leaves solo players or players without a combo-wombo teams with a skill that is just pointless to use unless you play against enemies that are lower than level 20.

RJ build works for you, but for them - it's a useless skill, almost as useless as super jump was.

[Epsik-kun]

But still: it leaves solo players or players without a combo-wombo teams with a skill that is just pointless to use unless you play against enemies that are lower than level 20.

RJ build works for you, but for them - it's a useless skill, almost as useless as super jump was.

On this point I agree with you.

[Buzkyl]

Every time you make a suggestion for Radial Javelin, keep in mind it is the strongest map clearing AoE nuke in the game currently. You can't just buff it without considering RJ build.

 

Unless you're farming draco or low level enemies where many abilties are nukes RJ is surpassed by both SD, EB and RB.

 

SD scales much better due to mods and combo counter

RB provides much better CC

EB give much better damage.

 

 

The current RJ is redundant 90% of the time. It has zero synergy with the rest of his kit and that has to be changed. Calling it the strongest map nuke in the game is also false. Blade storm does double the damage, increases with melee counter and ignores armor.

[Roltair]

I know others have stated the redundancy of RJ above but I'll provide some numbers to put things into perspective.
 

Every time you make a suggestion for Radial Javelin, keep in mind it is the strongest map clearing AoE nuke in the game currently. You can't just buff it without considering RJ build.

I'd really like to know what I'm doing wrong then. A 254% power strength radial javelin can't even kill a t2 void heavy. Yet Slash Dash at that can do 10k damage.

Frost with 239% power strength does 8.4k damage with avalanche to level 30 grineer heavies which will kill them in one use. Yeah that's more energy used but which all the things dead there is bound to be energy drops.

In the energy I'm wasting to try and kill something with radial javelin I can do cheaper with radial blind and exalted blade. Might be quicker to use RJ in whatever instance it'd actually kill something but there is nothing gained from it being quicker.

RJ might scale well with other powers being used in tandem with it but as others have stated, doesn't help the solo player or the player using it in a group where there is nothing to assist RJ.

Even if it was buffed it still feels redundant to have over just using blind and EB. I'd personally rather a new skill entirely than for this to be buffed. I know Excal has gotten so much love but if they were to do something to rework RJ I'd rather something that would better fit his description.

He's supposed to be balance of offense and defense but most of his moves are pretty offensive. Something defensive would be nice... not that he needs it but might be helpful for players not as well geared.

[Epsik-kun]

I'd really like to know what I'm doing wrong then. A 254% power strength radial javelin can't even kill a t2 void heavy. Yet Slash Dash at that can do 10k damage.

as others have stated, doesn't help the solo player or the player using it in a group where there is nothing to assist RJ.

This is what you are doing wrong. RJ is designed to be used in conjunction with other frames skills. Proper RJ build has no survivability, bad energy/efficiency ratio and can't survive on its own. However given a team with a good synergy it will outperform every other AoE nuke in the game until enemies' level hit around 80+.

Also, if it's T2, I believe RJ Excal can remove Blind Rage and still have enough damage to kill all trash in one-two casts for first 20 waves I think. You then use EBlade to kill remaining heavies and again - no other AoE nuke can compete in map clearing.

RJ is far from being most damaging AoE nuke - it has not that amazing damage and a limit of targets. It is the best nuke for map clearing due to insane range and high speed.

 

Excalibur has three defensive skills. RB, EBlade and Slash Dash. If you just want to change RJ for another skill I'm strongly against it. I don't want to lose actual meta nuke and a whole separate build for the sake of alternative build being a little more comfortable to use. If you want to tweak RJ to have more synergy with EBlade - I'm all up for it, but you have to do it with keeping RJ build in mind, because you don't actually want to buff already quite strong build even further.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[Roltair]

A well designed frame should be able to make use of any of it's skills at a low level mission without having to building specifically toward it, especially at that extreme of a case.

There are better aoes that can be used solo and with a group that will scale higher than RJ will without killing the frame's potential in a party or solo.

Avalanche doesn't need line of sight, is way stronger, works very well solo and even better synergized in a party, doesn't leave Frost being defenseless building for it and still allows Frost to use all of his other skills very well as well.

I'd say it's very unlikely DE built RJ to be built solely around itself to be used in conjunction with very specific frames while leaving Excalibur pretty defenseless.

It's sole defining feature is its speed, only when being used with these very specific other frames. While that speed is very convenient I can't imagine the average user wanting or caring to put all the effort required for it when there are easier and cheaper alternatives that aren't that slow.

Keeping the skill and just buffing it isn't the worst thing but I think better can be done and should be done.

I don't deny the other 3 skills can be pretty defensive but 1 and 4 are more offensive in nature and 2 can be used in a pretty offensively manner as well.

[Windy_Wind]

The only way to make it synergize with other 3 abilities right now is using the augment mod.  It should have been like that by default really.Or making it work the same as the augment mod but increasing crit chance instead

[YasaiTsume]

I want to change Radial Javelin into a Shield skill but hey, people gonna light my butt up for suggesting that. 

[Roltair]

I want to change Radial Javelin into a Shield skill but hey, people gonna light my butt up for suggesting that. 

I'd have suggested the same thing.

[Epsik-kun]

A well designed frame should be able to make use of any of it's skills at a low level mission without having to building specifically toward it, especially at that extreme of a case.

I'm afraid there are close to zero "well designed" frames in this game, if you chose this as your criteria. Also, RJ has its niche uses even in EBlade build, as it is still much faster than EBlade in lower levels and still oneshots pesky flying drones at higher levels.

 

You do realise, that no matter what you think about RJ, it is de-facto the best AoE map cleaner in Draco, Defences and Survivals currently, don't you? What purpose DE had initially for RJ isn't relevant right now, because of the practical usage it has currently. And, no, defining characteristic of RJ isn't just speed. It is foremostly range, and only then speed.

No matter how much you like Avalanche - you can't speedrun 60 waves of T4D even at half speed RJ Excal will be able to. You won't be able to get over 1500 kills per cap2 wave of Draco, you won't be able to outperform Pilfering Hydroid at resource farming. On small defence maps it might become comparable, but overally it isn't even close to the potential of RJ Excal.

I said it before - when DE decides that RJ should work differently - they'll buff/nerf/remove it. But that'll be not a decision of a frame designing tier, it would be a meta changing decision. I do not approve of any meta-changing suggestions from players, especially from ones who do not even play in this meta. Hence, I do not approve of any changes to RJ that will affect RJ build, be they positive or negative.

 

 

The only skill, that can save you from level 200+ enemies, Excalibur has is Slash Dash. It is his strongest defensive skill. RB is a great CC, but it can't save you from everything. Slash Dash can.

 

 

I want to change Radial Javelin into a Shield skill but hey, people gonna light my butt up for suggesting that. 

I'd have suggested the same thing.

Excalibur can go toe to toe with T4 lvl 100+ enemies and survive. Giving him a shield ability will make this into, like, T4 lvl 150+ enemies, while completely removing an alternative way of building and playing the frame. I can not see this as a good suggestion. I won't cry if something like this would be implemented, but it won't be a "good" change.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[Roltair]

 

 

I'm afraid there are close to zero "well designed" frames in this game, if you chose this as your criteria. Also, RJ has its niche uses even in EBlade build, as it is still much faster than EBlade in lower levels and still oneshots pesky flying drones at higher levels.

 

You do realise, that no matter what you think about RJ, it is de-facto the best AoE map cleaner in Draco, Defences and Survivals currently, don't you? What purpose DE had initialy for RJ isn't relevant right now, because of the practical usage it has right now. And, no, defining characteristic of RJ isn't just speed. It is foremostly range, and only then speed.

No matter how much you like Avalanche - you can't speedrun 60 waves of T4D even at half speed RJ Excal will be able to. You won't be able to get over 1500 kills per cap2 wave of Draco, you won't be able to outperform Pilfering Hydroid at resource farming. On small defence maps it might become comparable, but overally it isn't even close to the potential of RJ Excal.

I said it before - when DE decides that RJ should work differently - they'll buff/nerf/remove it. But that'll be not a decision of a frame designing tier, it would be a meta changing decision. I do not approve of any meta-changing suggestions from players, especially from ones who do not even play in this meta. Hence, I do not approbe of any changes to RJ that will affect RJ build, be they positive or negative.

 

 

The only skill, that can save you from level 200+ enemies, Excalibur has is Slash Dash. It is his strongest defensive skill. RB is a great CC, but it can't save you from everything. Slash Dash can.

 

 

Excalibur can go toe to toe with T4 lvl 100+ enemies and survive. Giving him a shield ability will make this into, like, T4 lvl 150+ enemies, while completely removing an alternative way of building and playing the frame. I can not see this as a good suggestion. I won't cry if something like this would be implemented, but it won't be a "good" change.

 

Won't deny your statement on frames not being well designed based on my criteria, but doesn't mean it can't be striven for starting here.

And I'll admit to not knowing that meta/potential. I'll change my statement to it doesn't need to be changed to a new skill entirely but I still think it shouldn't be as weak as it without building specifically toward it.

[Epsik-kun]

And I'll admit to not knowing that meta/potential. I'll change my statement to it doesn't need to be changed to a new skill entirely but I still think it shouldn't be as weak as it without building specifically toward it.

And as I said before, on that point I agree wholeheartedly. I had no idea what purpose button "3" served until I made a dedicated build for it.