Immunity Vs Resistance

[SicSlaver]

Damn, I thought this was about Warframes with immunities. *cough* Valkyr *cough*

[(PSN)ShiroPhyla]

Yes, bosses should be bosses ^_^

[(PSN)ShiroPhyla]

Yes, bosses should be bosses ^_^

 

9 hours ago, SicSlaver said:

Damn, I thought this was about Warframes with immunities. *cough* Valkyr *cough*

*highest armor in game* ->*armor completely pointless because immune to all damage* wat x_x

[Genos-Kun]

My file Is corrupted and So Slow Download !

[Dell_the_Engie]

YOUR TENNO POWERS ARE USELESS

You know what's really strange?  Encouraging players to utilize their kit of abilities, and synergize those abilities with their squadmates throughout the entire game, and then have key sections in which those abilities are rendered entirely useless.  I'm seeing a lot of agreement with this design decision in this thread, so am I in the minority here?

In regard to resisting "Tenno powers", I actually like the Nullifiers and Combas and Scrambuses, because in the context of normal combat, you have specific enemies that present themselves as special threats to otherwise hilariously impervious frames like Valkyr, or "Warframes of Mass Destruction" like Equinox.  Here's an enemy, out of the swarm of enemies barraging you, that you have to do something different to fight, and usually they're dispatched pretty quickly once your focus is turned to them.

But now you have a big list of significant resistances or complete immunities that render many abilities pointless to even attempt against bosses or boss-type enemies.  Which I think strangely divorces boss encounters from the mechanics of the rest of the game.  On the other hand, some of the more partial resistances, and especially the deminishing returns mechanic, seems to really strike the right balance.  I know it's a lot easier said than done, but I'm of the belief that every ability should do something against boss-type enemies, and complete immunity is not a complete solution.

If it blows away normal enemies like Soul Punch, flings them like Pull, or gives a hard knockdown like Sonic Boom, give bosses a stagger instead.  If Hydroid's Undertow swallows most enemies whole and drowns them, why not at least slow down boss-type enemies that stand in its tide?  These things are not overpowered, they simply give players more viable options when in these encounters.  The alternative is, frankly, uninteresting.

I would be disappointed if the depictions of Warframes synergizing their abilities to take down bosses, like in "The Profit" trailer, are now just a thing of the past, a segregation between cool cinematics and a somewhat underwhelming reality in the game.

Rhino's Stomp, Volt's Overload, and Mag's Pull and Crush have been nerfed, among over 40 ability nerfs against bosses and boss-type enemies this update.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Dell_the_Engie

[Kettunen]

So instead of resistances a blanket of skill immunities was implemented? Hopefully this is still work in progress because with 95 percent invulnerability phase and skill immunities bosses feel quite much like fighting a particularly nasty piece of level geometry.

[Kontrollo]

3 hours ago, Dell_the_Engie said:

I know it's a lot easier said than done, but I'm of the belief that every ability should do something against boss-type enemies, and complete immunity is not a complete solution.

That's what I think as well, I've just posted what I think about the 18.5 changes over there, in the general feedback thread instead.

[Killharcos]

not dowload and not updating am no game :(

 

[Sevchenko]

This is an interesting idea. why not go a step further and have bosses/enemies that degrade your power duration, power range, power strength, or power efficiency with either a debuff or depending on area or proximity to the enemy?

 

I like where this is going. But also make sure that CC abilities that don't CC bosses and only deal damage have some visual feedback. like, if Banshee's sonic boom wont knockback a boss and only deal damage, some visual feedback is necessary. The only real feedback for sonic boom is the knockback. Take that away and it might not be apperant that sonic boom is damaging the boss at all.

 

Thanks DE Adam, looking forward to the changes. 

 

[ograzzt]

Seems like immunity wins the fight...

[alergiclaprosti]

On 04.02.2016 at 6:19 PM, DE_Adam said:

 

·         Ash – Shuriken: Damage as normal, but no impale to walls. If any weak points are exposed they should be auto-targeted.
·         Banshee – Sonic Boom: Causes damage but no push or stagger.
· 
·         Mesa - Shooting Gallery: Boss weapons will not jam.

 

Where is the resistance vs imunity!? 

Sonic boom already deals .... basically no damage, so if you take out the cc ..... you can say that the target is imune.

As for Mesa, well... she's into the ground since the last "rework".

And as for Ash's Shuriken .... how does impaling or not a CORPSE have any meaning in the long run!?

[RealPandemonium]

5 hours ago, alergiclaprosti said:

As for Mesa, well... she's into the ground since the last "rework".=

In that case then she was always in the ground, since the rework primarily just removed the 360 degree aimbot without making other changes for the most part.  Peacemaker got a little less efficient for short bursts, but otherwise not much else changed.  Peacemaker was abused for its aimbot; now that we don't have that anymore Mesa is just not used by the masses since most people only cared about the aimbot anyway.  

Anyhow, removing the gun jam feature from the few bosses it worked on in the first place hardly is a nerf to Mesa, and hardly matters in general.  Once again, I think this is yet another case of DE being out of touch with the practical state of their game and not having a proper discourse with players so that actual effective changes can be made.  It does make sense for us not to be able to permaCC bosses, but that hardly even matters when we can 1-shot them anyway.  

[alergiclaprosti]

On 07.03.2016 at 5:42 PM, RealPandemonium said:

  Peacemaker was abused for its aimbot; now that we don't have that anymore Mesa is just not used by the masses since most people only cared about the aimbot anyway.  

 

When Mesa was released, I played without puting too much interest into Peacemaker. For me, it was only a skill to clear out the trash, the only thing it did well after lvl 40. The most important skill was Shooting Gallery which was nerfed 4 times (once stealth) until now.

At the start, Shooting Gallery was shutting down enemies is 21m (because, unlike all the noobs, I was increasing the range to prevent dealth from infested and Napalms).

So no, the Peacemaker being les atractive than normal weapon fire is the least of Mesa's problems. 

After seeing how Inaros, for 25 energy, has, in the same skill,  HEAL + BLIND (which is both CC and lots of damage).

What does Mesa have for 25 energy?! A damage increase (only significant with certain weapons and even than not that much) that needs time to charge and two activations.

Hmmm ... balance!

Edited March 9, 2016 by alergiclaprosti

[Sanremyrvl]

Mesa Peacemaker costs to much energy, ok the skil suffer  some changes but its seems there are costing to much to hold and aim to the sides forcing the player to raise eficiency much more than power :/

[RealPandemonium]

10 hours ago, alergiclaprosti said:

When Mesa was released, I played without puting too much interest into Peacemaker. For me, it was only a skill to clear out the trash, the only thing it did well after lvl 40. The most important skill was Shooting Gallery which was nerfed 4 times (once stealth) until now.

When and how was SG nerfed?

[VoidNomade]

The most problem i have with things like this is the inconsistency and non-transparency of mechanics.

 

Every skill is a wild guess how it works.

[CriticalFumble]

The issue seems to be that the development process made players ridiculously powerful.  So much so that the only way to have enemies that don't shrivel up and die at a glance from us is to add in convoluted mechanics on top of everything else. 

That alone should be reason for a huge rework for just about everything in the game. 

For argument's sake, though, you obliviously shouldn't let all powers effect bosses the way they do the grunts.  Mind Control for one would just be nuts, and stun locking bosses would also be a real problem.  But instead of a "no, now this does nothing because it would break the game", change it to something else for bosses.  Most have fairly simple mechanics; but they also tend to have charged attacks and vulnerability or increased vulnerability phases.  Giving knockdown/stagger abilities an interrupt feature on charged attacks keeps them relevant and expands the depth of the fight.  Giving control abilities a feature that lengthens or forces vulnerability would do the same. 

Obviously you wouldn't want them locked in a weak position, so some form of cool down is needed (most games just put timers on abilities, but without them. . .).  For enemies that have that kind of feature, there needs to be a more clear system to show what's happening.  Sticking icons of over their heads with the percent that one is reduced, or a timer for how long until they're open to that attack again would make the system much more transparent and user-friendly.  For bosses (as there will be a limited number of them on at any time) the icons could be across the top of the screen. 

[ImNotJellyAtAll]

  We need a "Make Warframe bosses great again" hat.

  All joking aside, Warframe bosses don't scale nearly enough to keep up with veterans' gear, and they try to make up for it with invulnerability phases. Unfortunately, bosses like Lech Kril and Sargas Ruk can't have their invulnerability removed by Tenno; instead of being fast-paced and fun, boss fights are five-minute snoozefests, where the only thing being tested is a Tenno's patience as they wait for an opening.

Edited March 30, 2016 by ImNotJellyAtAll

[twilightfallen]

what about reworking on how stalker shows up

D: isn't buffing his spawn rate would be useful by now and decreasing his drop loot a little to add balanced ?

 

i'm marked by all 3 and they rarelly come after me D:

Edited April 5, 2016 by twilightfallen

[VoidNomade]

The whole "Immunity vs Resistance" idea takes the wrong turn.

 

Instead of immunity and/or resistance there should be ways to punish and/or award the player for using certain tactics. This could be accomplished by adding trigger effects and mechanics on either foot soldiers or map interactions for example.

There should be creative ways to handle those problems where i think it can´t be boiled down to simple immunity phases or resistance calculations.

A brain with some fantasy and thinking out side of the box is in demand to design a boss fight AS A WHOLE ENCOUNTER and not only the boss itself.

[DaftMeat]

On 2/3/2016 at 11:19 AM, DE_Adam said:

Mesa - Shooting Gallery: Boss weapons will not jam.

This I don't like. I would much prefer a diminished duration, and then an equal period of time then becomes ”immunity". Basically, if someone maximizes Mesa for duration making this power last 84 seconds, it could be at least limited to almost 10% making it last 8 seconds, followed by 8 seconds of immunity to this power. That way the power doesn't become completely useless.

I understand why something like Switch Teleport would be disabled for bosses, but even that could be worked better to at least allow Loki to teleport to the boss.

[Cosmosframe]

This is so cool