Immunity Vs Resistance

[DE_Adam 21,101]

Over the past few Updates we've worked hard to revamp several Warframes that have needed a little extra depth in their mechanics -- like changing how Frost can cover the battlefield with Snowglobes or giving Excalibur a better set of tools to utilize his flexible combat style.  These Updates are still ongoing, and have been targeted at giving every single Warframe a unique and rewarding playstyle. 

Some Warframe Abilities can be broken down to 'do lots of damage in an interesting or stylish way', while others provide intense crowd control or essential AoE effects that can cripple or negate the opposition before they've had a chance to fight.  It's an epic way to eliminate ground troops but against more notable boss-style enemies it can make a fight feel anticlimactic.  On the other hand, a boss that's completely immune to Warframe Abilities can feel too strong -- almost unfair.  What we want is a good middle ground – we also want things to be consistent.

If you have fought the Stalker post-Second Dream or his Acolytes on PC during Operation: Shadow Debt you may have already noticed that some Shadow units weren't affected by certain powers, and some were. It feels inconsistent, and that's because it is.  

To help solve this problem we're going to slowly continue introducing Resistance and Diminishing Returns to of Warframe's notable bosses and boss units (example: Vay Hek and the Stalker). Currently there are some boss enemies that are just plain immune to certain powers. An example of this is Loki's Switch Teleport not working on massive bosses, simply because it'd break the arena, so an immunity of that nature would stay. Overall with Diminishing Returns, this doesn't mean that your Warframe powers will be completely ineffective against them, but instead the boss may have a heightened resistance to parts of it.  For some Warframes it means using your powers as a valuable resource, while other more damage-oriented Warframes may not feel any change.

Here are some examples of Diminishing Returns that we have in mind:

·         Ash – Shuriken: Damage as normal, but no impale to walls. If any weak points are exposed they should be auto-targeted.
·         Banshee – Sonic Boom: Causes damage but no push or stagger.
·         Frost - Freeze: Will cause damage, but the frozen proc will only slow the boss instead of rooting them in place.
·         Hydroid - Tentacle Swarm: Tentacles can damage a boss but will not be able to grab the target.
·         Ivara - Sleep Arrow: Sleep duration will be reduced against a boss with repeated use.
·         Mesa - Shooting Gallery: Boss weapons will not jam.

We have no doubt that these changes will make players feel a greater sense of urgency in combat, as bosses will naturally be able to shrug off some incapacitating effects that normally left them wide open. 

It's a gradual change, but one that we feel will help make Warframe's combat more dynamic and reactive when notable villains step onto the battlefield.  We will monitor every Warframe extensively to ensure these changes have had the intended effect on combat, and will make adjustments to each Warframe Ability as necessary.

We currently expect a partial rollout of Diminishing Returns and Resistance changes to go live as of Update 18.5.  Keep an eye on update and hotfix notes for more information!

 

-DE_Adam

[Kekerson 17]

I agree with this

Edited February 4, 2016 by DoorRF

[PsychedelicSnake 56,346]

Establishing better consistency is generally always a good thing, and I'm glad to see steps are being taken to ensure said consistency. Hopefully by the year's end we'll have a less confusing set of rules over how things function.

[--Pitou-- 227]

I'd say greatly reduce the CC duration for most powers, and completely disable CC for the others. For example, a stun for a few seconds is alright, but ragdoll to the other end of the area is not.

[ranks21 2,311]

that's the downside of the abilities= diminishing returns

 

 the upside should have a way of replenishing armor at the same rate of abilities  effectiveness being reduced that way its an equal battle.

 

to have a one sided battle which favors the enemy then why fight?

Edited February 4, 2016 by ranks21

[Bizzaro21 3,067]

shuriken doesn`t impale anyone........

[DaftMeat 11,393]

Stalker needs nerfs, not buffs. He's balanced for end-game veteran teams, but doesn't scale down well against MR2 Tenno running solo.

Otherwise, it makes sense.

[(PS4)AngelShur 1,288]

Totally agree with these.

[ClinkzEastwood 1,170]

Need more of this. Need special enemies that are immune to CC too.

And range, duration need to be balanced taking mods into account also.

[(PS4)AngelShur 1,288]

Stalker needs nerfs, not buffs. He's balanced for end-game veteran teams, but doesn't scale down well against MR2 Tenno running solo.

Otherwise, it makes sense.

Stalker only goes after MR5 and up. Just saying.

[ZizWing 763]

As long as it's only on bosses I'm fine with it. I like the idea but if every enemy were to be resistant to something it would start to make abilities very unreliable. For bosses however, this sounds like a good thing. Whether the boss is currently already immune or not at all, I can see this improving them in general.

[Koler93 571]

What about Trinity EV ??

[Urdillo 113]

totally agree.

 

Boss fights will be more epic (and with more sense) if this changes are well done. 

[xXDeadsinxX 8,019]

Totally agree.

[Rhundis 1,601]

Stalker needs nerfs, not buffs. He's balanced for end-game veteran teams, but doesn't scale down well against MR2 Tenno running solo.

Otherwise, it makes sense.

But the Stalker is supposed to be scary that early on in game. It's that way so when you finally become powerful you can scream "REVENGE!" at the top of your lungs.

[VKhaun 11,407]

This sounds good, but lets balance BOTH SIDES of this equation okay?

 

I very quickly got tired of the Acolyte that spammed Tidal Surge to knock down multiple players, and IIRC the same one Acolyte had both Switch Teleport and a Ripline-like pul move? Does the Acolyte that nullifies powers have to do so 100% and permanently?

 

Bosses and even some common enemies (I'm looking at you Shield Lancers, yes I can still see you when you hide your face) can chain stun and lock down players just as harshly as players can do so to them. Please consider giving the space ninjas a similar mechanic of diminishing returns because the only thing worse than a boss trivialized by CC is a player's character trivialized by CC.

 

 

 

 

 

Instead of permanently locking down all powers, maybe start unlocking them from one to four over a few seconds. Then lock them all down again, or rotate which one is available every few seconds.

 

Instead of permanently locking down a particular type of power, maybe have them reduce your duration stat by X% ramping down until your warframe adapts.

 

After being knocked down, give the player immunity for a few seconds or give the A.I. within 50m a queue to lay off targeting that person with knockdown/pull/juggle. Give things like Scorpions and Ancients a few more options of how to initiate so that every single wave of enemies doesn't involve three or twelve riplines coming at you like clockwork.

Edited February 4, 2016 by VKhaun

[Lanieu 6,402]

Now we just need a reason to fight boss' more often...

 

 

*cough*Token System*cough*

 

Grineer, Corpus, Infested Boss Tokens which allows you purchase special equipment, cosmetics (their skulls!) and/or weapons.

[Nosferagon 1,028]

I'd say i agree 100%.

I don't get why Chaos didn't work on acolytes though. but ah well

[weezedog 2,181]

Banshee – Sonic Boom: Causes damage but no push or stagger.

Mesa - Shooting Gallery: Boss weapons will not jam.

Hydroid - Tentacle Swarm: Tentacles can damage a boss but will not be able to grab the target.

 

I hate seeing CC powers that have no CC effect on bosses at all.  That just makes them almost completely worthless against bosses. They should do something CC related to the boss, even if it is diminished.

 

Would rather see the boss get an internal cooldown against Shooting Gallery so that their weapons can only be jammed once every X number of seconds rather than have no effect at all. Same with Sonic Boom.

 

With Tentacle Swarm, maybe it can slow the boss down rather than ragdoll them.

Edited February 4, 2016 by weezedog

[----Dante---- 2,015]

What about Trinity EV ??

[GinKenshin 12,770]

I'm a little rusty in English terms, what does diminishing returns mean?

[EmptyDevil 12,228]

This is a nice step toward removing some cheesiness from gameplay. 

 

Cheese is excellent on food. Not so much on games.

[Blakrana 2,892]

I'm a little rusty in English terms, what does diminishing returns mean?

 

The more you put into something, the less you get out of it.

 

So, let's say that normally, using a CC ability has 100% of the effect. The next cast might have say 95%...90% until, eventually, it's just not effective at all any more. Same input but you're getting less out of it each time it's applied.

[(PS4)WiiConquered 7,275]

With abilities like Sonic Boom, it's hard to see how causing damage will be of much value when a single bullet does more. Maybe there could be a 30 second or so immunity period to the stagger after one use, but allow it to stagger sometimes.

Another thing to consider might be different levels of immunity depending on the type of enemy:

Light/cannon fodder enemies would have no resistance.

Unique and heavy enemies would have some resistance to giant AoE abilities, but not to more focused ones.

Microbosses (Bursas, Juggernauts, Manics, hopefully Hyenas, and maybe Combas) would have heavier resistance to giant AoEs and slight resistance to focused powers.

Bosses would have heavier resistance as described above.

[GinKenshin 12,770]

The more you put into something, the less you get out of it.

 

So, let's say that normally, using a CC ability has 100% of the effect. The next cast might have say 95%...90% until, eventually, it's just not effective at all any more. Same input but you're getting less out of it each time it's applied.

basically like damaging the new sentients, the more you dmg them the more their resistance grows