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DE_Adam

Immunity Vs Resistance

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really rethink this thoroughly as it sounds all good and dandy but it also makes duration and power mods for frames redundant as its already visible with the sentients which is truly broken if nothing else is.

 

 there has to be a point where the adaptation and resistance stops  so everything else will have some sort of effectiveness= resist should only go as high as 50% how fast or slow its upto the devs but atleast it is balanced. fighting a boss is not just the boss alone as the minions will be there aiding him also.

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Doesn't seem to be a very worthwhile change but, it is one I have seen as a choice for sometime as consistancy is very important. The problem is many abilities in general do not scale while enemies and to a more limited extent, weapons do. Reducing effectiveness of what seperates Warframe from other shooters is a weakening of the IP and in-universe makes one wonder that with Nullifiers, Ancients, and Stalkers how the enemy factions even worry about Warframe users as a threat when they have superior answers, damage, training, and manpower available to them.

 

I can understand having enemy bosses having selective resistance or even immunity to abilities, such is not hard to take in when answers to void abilities exist, but there is a reason that Warframes have damaging abilities and disables. While enemies may have increased resistance to abilities, it would stand to reason that much like modding a warframe, packing armor on a knight, or choosing between different guns that there is always a trade-off. Similar to how if I decide to put on Flame Retardant against Ruk, I am lowering my potential power stats or survivability stats. I contend that while bosses or boss level enemies should be given hardening to our warframe's more debilitating moves, that they not receive a blanket weakening or increasing resistance to void powers in general; instead consider resistance to debuffs coming with a weakness modifier to the damaging ability aspects and vice versa. This would create an enviroment that could have a more dynamic contest between equals (or at least a team of space ninja commandos fighting an invulnerable enemy who is already only hurtable when they make themselves vulnerable.) while discouraging a simple flailing of powers or bullets as enemies, due to their scheme of resistances, would also have identifiable weaknesses.

Edited by Urlan
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Sonic Boom causing damage? Heh, good one, DE :P

Might as well not use anything but Sonar all against boss like enemies. IMO you should give boss mobs the ability to be lightly CC'd(stagger instead of ragdoll/KD) and have that light stagger-ability be on a cooldown, so it's still effective but stunlocking would be impossible.

 

Nevertheless, it's always nice seeing you working on making the game rules more granular so more avenues for nerfing and buffing can be opened without having one little change completely overpower a piece of gear.

Edited by AuroraSonicBoom
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Diminishing CC effect on boss is a way to go, the more you spam on them, the faster they immune to it, and if you spam too much, end up result in a immortal boss to cc because of your actions. this is how boss fight should be, and pls rework Vay hek boss fight, it's ridiculous. some boss like lieutenant Lech Grill is good because it require player to do sth rather than smash e (most newbie keep doing this....i dont know why) into an object.

i think a boss should be an upgrade version of normal soldier in armor,shield,hp, intelligent, and CC resistance.

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Seems like I edited just when you posted there, fellow Tenno!

Now, I will say it has been a while since I played ME3 but I would swear that heavy enemies do suffer from CC but to a much reduced degree. I swear I remember that Biotic Charge or Pull or the like would induce a small but useful stagger on these heavy foes that your team could use or at least you could employ to slow their advance.

Basically, I dislike primarily CC skills having the CC aspect removed or utterly nullified but I would be fine with and actually encourage something to where they would still have a use but less as a 'lock down harder than Madagascar's boarders' and more of a 'I need room to breathe for a moment' when it comes to reducing effectiveness. That way they are still useful but not necessarily with the same potency.

 

 

You're thinking of shielded enemies in ME3. Armored enemies in ME3 could be momentarily staggered. That's it. Also to stagger an armored enemy your "force" threshold had to be over double the original base amount. 

 

Shielded enemies were susceptible to almost all forms of CC but reduced, except from attacks that didn't have base damage or force. (Pull, throw, Slam) 

 

Not sure how something like this can translate into Warframe buuuut I hope DE finds a way to bring mechanics like that into the game. 

 

Like I said, I think you should have to reduce armored enemies armor before they are fully susceptible to CC.

 

Like-

Light units.. <95% armor rating

Medium units <85% armor rating

Heavy Units < 70% armor rating

Eximus Units < 50% armor rating. 

 

Shielded units should be immune to CC that has an effect on their body. (Mind control, chaos, sleep, paralysis and status (except slash and toxin)) etc..

 

That would give more people a reason to think outside the CC box for a bit. Like using Ash's/Banshee's augments for armor reduction, corrosive..

Add that to diminishing returns and a smarter AI that reacts to the Tenno based on situations. (Full shields/No shields, Full health/almost dead, just launched a CC attack/Heavy damage attack etc).

 

Then we'd have an epic game ladies and gentlemen.  

 

To the ppl that played ME3, Think of how crazy fighting a Banshee and a Brute was while trying to out maneuver and pick off the smaller guys. If boss battles can be like that in Warframe....

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When I read the title "immunity versus resistance" I was hoping for some additional content and other points would be addressed too. A big one would be:

 

There is no use in shields on Warframes in high level content. Shields do not gain any resistances, they are more or less immediately stripped if you get hit. Ability tanking is viable, Armor tanking is viable, but shield tanking is not. We have armor resistance modules to amplify things but we don't have shield resistance modules, only recharge, which is basically worthless past certain levels where you are still happily armor or ability tanking. We also have absolutely no choice about the resistance we want to have. Warframes only have alloy armor, we cannot even choose ferrite if we WANT to (except Rhino Iron skin being Ferrite). I think a great way to look at increase Warframe survivability an customization option is more choice on personal resistance. The only mod I ever loaded was the toxin resistance. I never used or had a use for the others.

 

But to get back on topic;

 

The first big issue is inconsistency.

Why wait for a boss to be reworked to "fix" certain small things? Some bosses can still be knocked down frequently, posing no threat.

 

The second big issue is UNWARRANTED immunity or resistance. Why do you want to artificially create "waiting time" to extend a boss encounter uselessly? Why is Vor getting two immunity phases to summon his guard? Why can't he teleport halfway across the room and preferably change height level and has his replenished shields?

Same with Tyl Regor. Seriously, I was using a stopwatch. My clan-group, 4 casuals in the fray, spent MORE TIME WAITING for Tyl Regor to get out of his invulnerable phases again than actually wearing down his hitpoints. Seriously?

It beckons a question: why do you want to forcefully deny us the power we rightfully acquired thanks to the gear-treadmill that you have been introducing yourself? Bossfights can scale and be more challenging depending on OTHER things. not just hitpoints and damage and invulnerability timers. But sometimes, you just want a straight-faced boss that will murderfy you instantly if you don't get the hell away while you empty one clip after the other. I don't want every boss to be a masterpiece puzzle.

 

Let's take yet another two examples of the same cut: Sargas Ruk and Lephantis. What do they have in common? They have target zones that don't make sense at all and are protected against things they should not be protected. I see the FACE of Sargas Ruk. NO damage. At least Vay Hek has a full face-shield when he wants, if he likes (which is just as ludicrous, but let's not go there). Why can't we damage Lephantis' heads with punch-through weapons before Lephantis even opens up? Senseless. I'd rather see a high amount of RESISTANCE on Sargas Ruk's current invulnerable body parts so that we at least still see a difference.

 

Jackal at least does it half-right. If your damage output exceeds a certain point, the invulnerability phases after he gets up from his shot-out legs make the fight SLOWER. so at least we have a CHANCE to just power through his core body.

 

But of course, I can feel people saying something like "bosses are not end-content, you're missing the point."

In a way you are right, but who says that bosses will NEVER be able to regain a seat in the upper ranks of the game? We can choose difficulty on starmap levels between "normal" and "nightmare". We can choose difficulty from t1 to t4 in the void. That's it. But that does not mean it always has to STAY that way, right?

 

So let's get back to units. A big problem of so many games is: "NPC = low damage, high hitpoints. Player = high damage, low hitpoints. Bosses = high damage and/or extra mechanics, high hitpoints"

There are other issues like why something needs to scale so high when other things can be used to keep level lower but challenge still high, but that would go off topic. I'd like to talk about different aspects of regular NPC unit immunities and resistances:

 

Copying Warframe abilities onto unfitting NPCs is just plain wrong and feels like cheesy content rehashing. Why can Grineer of all people have a commander that can switch teleport?

And do you know how frustrating it is using weapons with super high amounts of punch-through, but you still can't hit enemies inside their frostbubble or nullifier bubble? I don't ask for full damage. I ask for at least something to give that punch through a meaning again, even if I only do a fraction of the damage. Speaking of the nullifier bubble, it's just as stupid as Rhino's iron skin. I'd rather have Iron skin get stripped of the "status effect immunity" so a new warframe can gain a "status immunity" power. And in turn split up nullifiers into "ability nullifying" and "weapon nullifying" to allow intersecting groups? Nullifiers by concept maybe have been meant to make the players re-think their approach on enemies depending on who is on the field. But in truth it just causes hilarious annoyances, nothing more, even on high levels.

 

In my opinion, the worst mistake you did was the way how Sentients work. It doesn't make any sense. You cannot shift to be resistance to basically EVERYTHING you throw at the enemy while dishing out murderous amounts of damage towards the Warframe. It would be at least a lot more plausible if at some point the first resistances phase out in favor for the last, so we can cycle our weapons for efficiency. The idea if infinite adaptability is less than stellar.

 

So in a nutshell, approaching at least the bossfights from both ways would be preferable:

Warframe sided: I don't want to cheese through the boss with warframe abilities or superpowered weapons. Oneshotting Phorid is sad enough already, and I get hysteric laughs when I freeze a boss. Thank you for wanting to address that. Ideally, it is a mix of Weapon and Warframe to achieve the best result against the boss, but it should never get down to a point where a certain setup is basically required.

Boss sided: Multi-staged boss fights are not fun if they are gated by arbitrary invulnerability times and other things that cannot be interrupted even though they SHOULD be interrupted. We can carry freaking huge ENERGY CANNONS. No pure invulnerability should be allowed except we're talking about massive size differences. Still, ENERGY CANNONS.

 

Immunity and resistance boils down to a bigger umbrella-topic, which is "difficulty." That is a true challenge, and an artisan's challenge at that. You did make your life a lot harder by constant gear-treadmill. At some point you will have to cut down on it again, rebalance a LOT, including the damage system again, and how enemies scale. Please, don't be Blizzard.

 

As for the examples posted, I agree with all of them completely, except one:

"Mesa - Shooting Gallery: Boss weapons will not jam."

Instead of jam, how about using a single stagger per instance of shooting gallery?

 

That's all for now.

 

Edit: I forgot my quintessential closing words:

 

You don't need to bring diminishing returns into the game, if you are using resistances and immunities in a plausible and reasonable way. Because diminishing returns themselves are often a doubtful concept.

Edited by Khunvyel
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Appreciate the effort but other things needs attention more. we can kill those bosses np. 

work on focus changes other important aspects ...

Edited by Darkmatt3r
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I want to know One thing and one thing Only is (Letter13) still work for DE that pice of you know what and DE is he/she your lover or something for protecting him/her so much? Even if wrong still protect him wander why but then again what can i say you BETRAYED your most Loyal Players who helped you the MOST Warbros #1 and then delete everything they say to hide the TRUTH how nice was that hiding and blaming others when never admitting that DE You where wrong at the same time as Warbros #1 and claiming you where allways  right so so pathetic.

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that's the downside of the abilities= diminishing returns

 

 the upside should have a way of replenishing armor at the same rate of abilities  effectiveness being reduced that way its an equal battle.

 

to have a one sided battle which favors the enemy then why fight?

Challenge?

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OffTopic: When you mentioned immunity on the topic, I tought you would adress Warframes full immunity or 99% immunity to be replaced by improved defensive stats in all warframes. Was kind of disapointed :P, I really want us (the tenno) to be nurfed, we are too OP.

Good defensive stats instead of full immunity, no longer inifinite CC, heals with cooldowns and energy regeneration with cooldowns would be a really awsome change. Allowing more teambuilds to be done with different warframes. Back to topic:

 



 On the other hand, a boss that's completely immune to Warframe Abilities can feel too strong -- almost unfair.  What we want is a good middle ground – we also want things to be consistent.

The damage abilities will always do damage, that should be enough. To me, any type of CC (slow, freeze, stun, sleep, root, knockback, pushback,...) should not affect a "Boss", otherwise he is a peasant, not a boss. That type of enemy is meant to be completely different from the rest. However, there are still a lot of new players, and these bosses are meant for them, not for us (veteran).

 

With this said, I don't really mind some of the changes mentioned by the community, to the general "boss population", because they only affect the new players. So, the changes:

 

Bosses:

 

- Should spwan other enemies that can be killed and are the reason of his immunity. Example: If Tyl Regor wants to "bring down the ocean on us", he first spawns a few minions that point a laser at him, and those lasers give them immunity. In order to break his immunity, we have to kill the minions first, however the reason must be obvious.

 

- Otherwise, don't make them immune to damage at all. When they are slowed first, and then get immunity, it is really sad.... Same goes for juggernaut, allow that enemy to be slowed only when he is vulnerable (when he rises his front paws).

 

- Should have abilities/spells/attacks that one shot any one (even full immunity damage). They need to be avoided or blocked by a frost globe, volt eletric shield, atlas wall, etc... Example: Getting hit by Lt. Lech Krill gigantic melee weapon..... (this is kind of off topic....)

 

- Should have the ability to block abilities (I am not talking about damage) and redirect them to us. This will reward us if we cast the abilities when the boss is not blocking, and punish us when we miss cast the ability). Why: resistance and cc mitigation cannot be the only solution.

 

 

CC in a general way:

 

- Since we are talking about CCs. All warframes are Immune to CC when we are casting an ability. I think that is wrong, and should not happen. Enemies must have a way to counter our abilities. When they try to knock us down, it should count as an interrupt. Example: Nekros can cast desecrate to prevent knockdown, it should instead be interrupted and knockdown.

 

- However, we can also be constantly knockdown too.... That is annoying. Suggestion: Show on screen a small combination of keys (Example: Left arrow + left arrow + jump) that will allow us to break free from the CC, and become immune to CC for 1-2 seconds so we can have a chance. This way, we are rewarded by playing it right, or punished if we fail to press those keys.

 

-------///----------

FOR VETERANS, and I think there should be a really big difference between the bosses from the navigation map, and from the "Raids". (which I am hoping that way more raids (Trials) will be launched, soon :\.... But even by opening full new topics with new Veteran content, ideas and concepts we don't get it... any way, back to topic:)

 

Vay hek is not meant for new players. So he should not suffer any type of CC. As well as any other boss that may be part of another future raid. In those raids, some of the changes to resistance and diminishing returns should also be adressed to the normal minions. In order to prevent Total map lockdown.

 

Why is Vay Hek and his "trash" different? When you do LoR raid, you must have specific warframes, due to their effectiveness in CC (blind mirage, vauban). However, if the mechanics of the next raids doesn't allow TOTAL map lock down (meaning there are a lot of normal enemies [trash] that cannot be Infinitely CCed) more optional warframes can play the raid, due to the loss of effectiveness in CC.

 

I am mentioning this here, because the set of rules can change for experienced players, there shouldn't be new players in Raids. So our "future raid bosses" should not have the same set of EASY rules. Vay hek is my only suggestion to harder set of rules since he is the only one atm. But please, make different libraries for new and veteran bosses.

 

Off Topic: Same goes for infinite Energy reg (EV trinity) and 99% immunity damage (blessing Trinity). This forces them to be in the raid, no matter what. Removing the possibility of using different warframes in the raid. Their strength makes them unreplacable. They need to be nurfed.... Even if it's only in certain missions

Edited by MythBringer
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Now we just need a reason to fight boss' more often...

Respect. Sounds good.

*cough*Token System*cough*

Grineer, Corpus, Infested Boss Tokens which allows you purchase special equipment, cosmetics (their skulls!) and/or weapons.

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·         Ash – Shuriken: Damage as normal, but no impale to walls. If any weak points are exposed they should be auto-targeted.

This item feels out of place on the list.  Shuriken does not currently impale to walls and hasn't for years (maybe it did a long time ago before U11 when I started playing?)  Homing in on weak points would be a straight buff, since it doesn't do this now, either.  

 

 

A clan mate of mine who was fairly new to the game told me he brought in 3 friends to try out Warframe with him. They got a Stalker spawn, and he team-wiped them. His 3 friends never played again. The game is challenging enough for beginners, it doesn't need an enemy that's balanced for end-game to constantly kill them before they've even maxed any mods.

 

Original Vanilla Stalker should be nerfed and made relatively easier for newer players to survive if not defeat; at least take away his player-teleport and allow people to run like the choice G3 provides. The end-game balanced Shadow Stalker should only be unleashed after players finish The Second Dream.

 

Two different Stalkers, for two different levels of play at least.

 

Vanilla Stalker is much more dangerous than the Shadow Stalker; he actually gets nerfed after you do The Second Dream.  Shadow Stalker has the Sentient bullet sponge mechanic, but he often stands in place launching feeble EB waves at you.  Vanilla Stalker spams the one-shot Slash Dash and will nail you to the wall with his weapons if you aren't constantly running circles around him.  

 

It's no surprise that the team of newbies got wiped, but if failing one mission is enough to turn them off of the game then they probably don't like the game very much and should quit before they develop a farming addiction that keeps them playing and, eventually, posting bad feedback on the forums for a game they don't really like at its core.  

Edited by RealPandemonium
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I just read this and it sounds like a good change overall however, please be careful to not make the boss-farming meta to only use weapons with insane burst damage (sancti tigris, vaykor hek, tonkor).

 

You might try starting the boss's armor at some super high value and then bringing it down to some target dps (and back up if the players dps increased).  That would bring length AND resistances to bosses.

 

Following on my above idea, you could start the armor adjustment based on all damage done in the mission instead of just damage done to the boss.  That way, players do the correct dps right from the git-go (or they might just switch weapons before the boss fight).

 

Anyway, this is an area that needs work and I'm glad that you're working on it.  Good luck.

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I am hoping for some changes but that's not a solution if you nerf one side and strenghten up the other.

 

That is also not a good option to be op and one shot everything and kill everything with you abilities.

 

To be honest the game is full of easy mode mechanics and cc and bad enemy scaling act like a solution.

 

There is a tons of stuff what needs to be changed before you want to do this, for example what about the resistance mods on frames? These mods unused and could be useful if we talk resistance as passive implementations which can be boost manually until a level and not pregenerated. The most of abilities are broken and some just useful in mid and pre high end levels after that just few exclusively survival frame can operate well. For example trinity's insta heal ability or valkyre invulnerability and her armor rates which makes the full armored rhinos cry babies.

 

There is no logic on the armor at moment because the reduction mechanics mostly work one sided for the enemies when they hit the high "end" levels and a certain level the abilities turn into useless and the weapon damage try to perform but hardly.

 

Someone said chipers and hacking, like the stealth gameplay and detection in the game is still broken and not rewarding, and often you need to terminate your process unless you will be killed by a mad butcher who slash you until die. A stealth play with the invisibility frames like loki and ivara probably work but without sentinels or kubrows whom grant this too the stealth is almost impossible because of spawnning logic and a random guy just there always behind u thingy.

 

You introduced aswell some unit which just ignore your abilities and type of weapons which makes them more deadly instead of more tactical and smart. There is nothing smart with nullifiers they just spam their aura which block your abilities and if these lucky guys got napalms and bombards or a bounch of high level enemies with one show you down then there is nothing to do just run or prepare to die.

All depends on situation and often have these situations when you cannot save your mates or just avoid an unwanted fight against mobs.

 

Some bosses also just use bad mechanics and invulnerability instead of just resist / reduce some abilities / weapon effectiveness.

 

And no, the Stalker still harrassing lower rank peoples bellow 5. Almost impossible to kill sometimes and other times just too easy.

For example I killed him once on jupiter while farming for neural sensors and he punished me other times with an one shot through the wall without any preparation to him. If he given more invulnerability for the challenge then that is turn nightmare for the player and won't be fun anymore.

 

One hand the peoples whom want play this game mostly want feel theirself successful with killing stuff with the possible less-more input without suksbollzz challenges. Very few peoples enjoying the insane level fights because that's mostly mean these mobs just given huge boosts on their stats and nothing more. A level 10 bombard won't be smarter at level 50 just hit you like a drum.

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instead of CC diminishing, like many people said will make abilities unreliable, why not add CC-counter unit (not those nulifier really, not that one, that's just not what i mean), like if you use too many blind (mirage) there will be unit shield other unit from blinding (by a shield i guess?) and kill able regardless of skills, but they are immune to the most CC used on the field. I dnt understand about grineer combat strategy , they just throw shooting practice targets at us even on the field thier army is murdered by our frames while getting stunned/freeze, in reality if that countinue your empire will soon be in ruins before you can realize it no matter how many clones you have. Corpus has Nulifier unit which is broken and SHOULD BE REMAKE like the idea i said, immune to the most used CC ability on field. The current one is damn broken and direct face slap to those who use sniper/markman rifles.

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ALL BOSSES SHOULD TAKE DAMAGE BASED ON PvP DAMAGE RULES.

 

Mods which don't affect PvP would have no effect on buffing weapon damage on bosses. This would already equalize the playing field to a well-known common denominator. 

 

(people will hate me for that)

 

 

-----

 

 

Ultimate (4) powers depending on their nature should be able to cause a stagger or open up an otherwise invulnerable boss, or make its vulnerability phase have an extended duration, or take a damage buff; or yet cut short a dangerous boss AoE. 

 

Just a few examples - non-exhaustive list: 

Jackal:

Direct Damage  AoE: Zephyr's Tornado, Hydroid's Tentacles, Saryn's Miasma: Should be able to knock off Jackal to  its side, making it vulnerable.  (Never mind Jackal is lame and needs a buff to its battle phases). 

 

Sargas Ruk:

Direct Damage Single Target: Mesa Peacemaker, Excalibur's Exalted Blade: Overheats Sargas Ruk as it shoots/passes through him, making it open up its exhaust ports sooner. 

Sargas Huk should have a 'heat meter' which would act like a second health bar, when it fills it opens the exhaust ports. It would slowly fill while it moves and attacks, but filll faster as it absorbs damage while invulnerable. 

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if the idea is to make more and more enemys immune to cc debuffs and adventually ability damage the defence stats will have to be balanced so you can actually have an top end gameplay in my opinion

challenge is good but if the reward doesnt change in an progressive manner its detrimental.

as an example lets say an infested enemy that is immune to cc or highly resistent gets added now bastille which erlier was the bread and butter for getting those void keys since it prevents infested  that are mostly close combat from reaching the escavators not wond stop this enemy as levels go up and resistence scales therefore makes it harder to get keys, stuff we dont want to have in c rotation will not get removed so RNG will remain the same less and less players will be able to obtain keys just by elimination alone, well atleast the top tier will get more plat, and new players will have an harder time going by.

i aware im rambling and overthinking id rather have new mission types than immune enemys sure im ok with bosses to have higher resistence ability to counter or dispell at intervalsvay hek is already immune or highly resistent to cc after short while as far as i can tell by gameplay.

the grind will always be there as far as i can tell making that if its nessesary to make that grind harder and harder im just happy to not be an new player that sees an huge wall of exponetialy harder tasks to get to one item they want, while less and less players want to carry them trough it...

well if id add "hard" type enemys id add them as chance spawn in units simular to gustrag or alcelytes but bigger teams lower overall danger level but still giving an hard fight due to high resistence and say chief units that are immune to random aspects debuffs, slows, stuns, stat effects, etc giving unigue rewards in overall drop table upon defeat so that you can choose to run but also choose to stand up and fight.

Edited by Satchii
had some words to add

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The ideas here are fine dandy, but Mesa doesn't need a shooting gallery nerf.

Seriously DE ? She is almost bottom tier will all the new changes (PM drains 15 energy a second while EB and co only drains like 2 energy.... ??!) Shooting gallery is already an unreliable CC as it switches over to various users all over the place. Now we are making it unusable against bosses?

Can't we just tone down the duration instead ? Never mind that it jumps to different users every 8 seconds, so the bosses will only be stunned for 8 seconds at most.

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I think all the bosses not be affected by any abilities of any warframe, only damage is good enough. The rest of abilities leave to defend warframes like frost, rhino ...

 

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I like the idea of diminishing returns on most bosses, but I think the Stalker should perhaps stay "sacrosanct" with respect to powers. Especially with how quickly higher-level players can force him to flee, I think it's reasonable that they not be able to make him unable to fight back as well. Since, y'know, he's supposed to be a well-prepared assassin.

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