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February 12Th Community Hot Topics!


[DE]Drew
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Draco Leveling
Draco has been a point of contention, and a hot topic, for a long time. We’re aware that it’s a controversial subject, and I hope that we can have a constructive community discussion about it. I doubt you’ll be surprised to know that it’s the most played node (by a significant margin) on all platforms. If you’re unfamiliar with Draco, I suppose this will spill the not-so-secret way many players acquire Affinity in Warframe. The source threads for this topic discuss the flaws and merits of Draco. Do you use Draco to acquire Affinity? Do you think it should be a valid way to play or is it an abuse of game mechanics? Should there be limitations or is it fine the way it is? What would you change about it, if anything? Answer here and in the source threads below!
 
 
 
Dual Primaries
I thought this was a fun topic, so I’ve included it to keep things lighthearted. The source thread for this topic is about dual Primaries. As you’ve probably noticed, dual guns have been the sole domain of Secondaries (which is why Twin Grakatas is a Secondary weapon), but would you like to see Ak versions of any Primaries? If so, which would make sense? Should new dual Primary weapons be introduced or would they be too similar to Secondaries? The comments in the thread also mention some cool heavy weapon types, but I’m just focusing on dual wielding for this week. Post your thoughts below!
 
Source threads:
 
 
Crowd Control Prevalence
The source thread for this topic discusses the strengths of Crowd Control (CC) and how effective it is while playing. Do you think CC is too prevalent or too strong? Do you have fun using it or would you prefer to play without it? Do you think it should have diminishing returns to prevent permanent lockdown? How would you change it, if at all? 
 
Source threads:
 
 
 
Mandatory Mods: Warframes
We’ve discussed mandatory Mods in previous Community Hot Topics, but we haven’t really discussed them much in reference to warframes. Arguably, mods like Redirection and Vitality aren’t as mandatory as some weapon Mods, but there are still a few warframe Mods that are considered “must haves” for many builds. What is your opinion on the most commonly used warframe Mods? Do you think there is enough build diversity for warframes, or are some Mods too essential? How would you improve build diversity to allow more options, if at all?
 
Source threads:
 
 
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No talk about Focus... this is disappointing.

 

EDIT:

 

In response do Drew:


"We try to discuss topics that appeal to all platforms unanimously. Because Focus is in flux right now, it's not an appropriate topic for these threads."

 

No offense, but the current focus system ties in directly to the many complaints about Draco.

 

Want to power level, go to Draco. Want to get syndicate rep, go to Draco. Want to have some chance at getting decent focus... surprise, go to Draco.

 

You guys changed a system that was bad, as it meant people had to hog kills, into a system that it doesnt really matter if you hog kills, the gains are so low, and solo players have been given another middle finger from DE. We keep getting pushed into palying the same exact leveles over, and over, and over, and over again because of the same game design on every single addition.

 

Currently we grind for ducats, to get primed mods, to then grind for cores. We grind Draco to quickly level and reforma weapons, while getting syndicate rep and focus, to then use these to grind for ducats to then grind for cores, and so forth.

 

You guys keep promising end game, or even a better reward system, but atm we keep getting pushed into playing the same missions over and over and over again. So sorry, focus should have been put up here in the discussions, as the changes made are going to affect consoles. So we have to wait a month until this hits consoles, for them to realize how bad it is, and then we discuss it so maybe it gets change sin like what, another 2-3 months?

Edited by Hybridon
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I think that draco is not a problem because this is a pve game and i don't care what others are doing with their time as long as they aren't ruining the missions that I'm actually running. 

 

and dear God please no ak primaries. just seems too clunky. I enjoy the two grakata but that's a totally different thing

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Do you think some warframe Mods are practically mandatory?

 

If this is about Redirection and Vitality, then no, not in the slightest and I'd urge you to not make them innate, I prefer to have less shields so that Rage kicks in faster. 

 

If this is about Intensify/Streamline/Stretch/Continuity etc then I can see the point, there is no build that doesn't use them, I'd also disagree with them being innate, sometimes I really want a low range I.e. Tentacle Swarm.

Edited by DeMonkey
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Draco isn't a huge problem in of itself, but it's part of a really, really big problem. I'll quote myself from another thread.

Many of the problems with Affinity stem from the Forma. Forma were (Forma is both singular and plural, right?) meant to be a way to effectively raise our level cap, but with it came a way to artificially prolong playtime in a terrible way. There are a few main problems with Forma themselves, as well as a couple that are a little bigger that serve to compound the Forma problem.

One, they reset the rank of your weapon. Considering that almost every primary in the game needs 5-6 polarities to reach its maximum potential, that's a huge amount of leveling. Having to progress 180 levels on a weapon (which requires 2.7 million affinity, plus an additional 450,000 to rank it to 30 in the first place) to "finish" it is simply preposterous. Having to grind that many levels on any weapon, particularly one that will be perpetually under-leveled the entire time, is a terrible, terrible chore. Which means it's a very small wonder why Draco is so popular.

Beyond Forma are some problems with the Affinity system itself. Because of the way Affinity distribution works, you're always best off equipping only your Warframe and one weapon to level up a new weapon, which makes it very difficult to allow an item to level up naturally as you play. There's also the tremendous gap between Affinity yields in endless and non-endless missions.

Edited by Gurpgork
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> Crowd Control Prevalence

Diminish return must happen. But balance means lowering something and enhancing something else.


> Mandatory Mods: Warframes

Rage is a problem, involved with Energy generation overall.

About energy generation...

.. it's not only a Mod related problem; the actual systems involved are:

  • Rage, mostly reliable with Vitality and a tanky frame, also requires to get damage, being in dangerous situations.
  • Energy Siphon, unreliable. However it should be made baseline.
  • Equilibrium, works only for specific builds and it's used only on some frames.
  • Consumable spam. Mostly broken.
  • Warframe skills.
    Energy Vampire, mostly  broken.
    Despoil it's RNG related but actually feels legit.
  • Random dropping Orbs. (whatever Energy Orbs shouldn't drop from enemies killed by abilities.)
     
  • Syndacate AOE procs (Entropy, Blight). Legit, but not so reliable.

I feel the new Focus Convergence mechanic adds flow to the gameplay and something similar could be done for Energy, allowing windows of opportunity in which you could use your full powers or even spam them, and others in which it would be better ration and keep your energy for the best chance.

What about some Style Kill Momentum? Something involving an active role from the player, unrelated to RNG or cheap abusable actions.
It comes to my mind Conclave missions (Kill airborne opponents, headshot kills, Style kill, kill enemies with primary and secondary, etc.).

I think there's also space for a subtle battle management with enemy drain mechanics (Parasitic Eximuses, Magnetic procs, etc.), like also adding some "drain reduction" mechanic to Focus and Primed Focus mods, to allow the player countering the waste of its own effort into collecting more energy.

Edited by Burnthesteak87
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Having played for 3 years i really enjoy Draco being a farming node. Im at the point where im making builds and forma-ing stuff just simply because. I dislike making a reasonable grind unreasonable. 

 

It may be an issue for new players but at this point theres so much to do i dont really think it matters. Esp. because you cant grind or acquire everything you need form draco so its only good for XP which as a new player hurts them because they arent grinding in multiple locations  to get all they need.

 

There is nothing wrong with crowd control. If anything it makes the game more exciting. At the higher tiers its really fun. Because it tests your build and skill and the team. A single slip up can cost a few revives or a forced extraction. I find it enjoyable. Esp since the power creep in some weapons/builds will finally meet their match. CC isnt something that is THAT important at the lower leveled enemies but CC is always important to have. And frankly, the game would be impossible to play in its current state without CC. Its part of every game ever why is this a hot topic???

 

Some enemies CC a bit to strong but if youre paying attention w/e. Scorpions should either drag or knock down not really both (shorter time to standing on drag). these are just the opinions of an older player who plays to relax or challenge my builds to the breaking point.

 

Edit: i voted for there are mandatory warframe mods IE redirection/vitality/flow not that im complaining. Too many mods will become more of a problem than not enough at this point. From when warframe started the variety in builds is pretty large now.

Edited by Zhoyzu
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Do you use Draco to acquire affinity?

 

Yes, and quite often especially for leveling frames that have little to no stealth mechanic that can be used for stealth Vault Runs.

 

Do you think Draco is a problem and needs to be changed?

 

Draco isn't the problem per se; rather it is the way affinity is gained and shared, and the lack of other viable leveling options -- leeching, stealth spy vault, and stealth affinity farm being the only viable options -- that makes Draco a problem. If affinity gain could be changed to better fit leveling for solo play, etc. without relying on shared affinity -- the only type of affinity that levels ALL items in the current loadout -- then the "Draco problem" and "power leveling" will be issues of the past.

 

Does it worry you that Draco is a Community Hot Topic?

 

Less of worry than it is exciting; it feels like this is a good topic for discussion to further better the affinity system and players, veteran and newbies, to be able to level their weapons and frames without relying on shared affinity.

 

Would you like dual Primaries (similar to Ak Secondaries)?

 

Akgorgon.

 

Do you think Crowd Control is required too often?
  1. Yes! Oh, and very much so! However, I see this as a symptom of the combination of enemy scaling, OHKO mechanics, and low Warframe eHealth in general. It's as much as a symptom of a broken system than it is a root of the problem.
Do you think Crowd Control spoils the fun in some missions?

 

Yes and no; yes because there are times when you actually want to play the game as it was meant to be -- relying on weapons and less on Warframe skills and fighting enemies, etc. -- but in order to NOT be irritated and/or succeed in the mission, you have to rely on perma-CC instead.

As mentioned above, this isn't a problem with CC in general but is just a symptom of broken mechanics.

 

Do you think some warframe Mods are practically mandatory?

 

Very much so especially Efficiency; on the other hand, there are mods that are of no use at all, such as damage-type resistance and whatnots.

 

Back to the topic: This is something that I feel that needs to be addressed though not without changes in the current game/enemy system as these go hand-in-hand. The removal of stats such as Efficiency will allow players to build new things and experiment more AND also makes them more skilled in the game as they will rely less on their CC/instant kill abilities. HOWEVER, this should NOT be implemented as long as enemies are still capable of infinite or exponential scaling and/or OHKO-mechanics, bullet sponging, etc.

Edited by MIRROR_ell
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From what I have heard, the raids are all about spamming CC. Kill nothing. That kinda goes against what the game is about. Plus it sounds boring as fudge. Most likely has to do with enemies oneshotting Tenno at higher levels, which is even more boring than CC spam.

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Here's an idea: don't reset an item's rank when you polarize it. The main reason why I even consider Draco or all of these powerleveling scenarios in the first place is because my newly-polarized warframe/weapon doesn't do squat for damage in the missions I normally run.

 

If the piece of equipment is polarized, just give me a separate progress bar on it to fill up and keep it at rank 30. This will allow me to see more use out of it while I'm earning that extra polarity.

 

I made this post last year and I still stand by it.

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"Do you think Draco is a problem and needs to be changed?"

Yes it is a problem, but It shouldn't be addressed just to flat-out nerf xp gain from Draco, make other modes ESPECIALLY non endless mission to give you more affinity, make it on par, make it so that we can run most of the missions to level up our gear rather than to soft force us to do Defence and Interception missions.

And I am really worried that Draco will be nerfed or removed, rather than bringing other missions on par or at least similar xp gain.

Edited by Ognj
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Do you think Draco is a problem and needs to be changed?

Draco is now one (been for a long time really) if not the most played node to farm xp, in the past we had others (anyone remember Viver?) mostly since the introduction of syndicates. Other than draco we have some "fallen" popular nodes still available: sechura, ODD and one or 2 more.

Since i been around since open beta i got used to,you know, having to play with the weapons and frames to rank them up, by doing regular missions, but now i can use power leveling if i want to (and i do currently). So i have a hate/love relation with draco atm, is really good if you dont have much time to farm xp/synd stand/ focus (and focus got nerfed in the v1.1 for draco) and mitigates some of the grind from the game (lets be honest thats the main reason its used), but is really bad for promoting a stationary playstyle, mostly affecting the new players (veterans still get rusted there, but they know more of the game and are not that likely to be ruined from a round or two in there).

The thing is that when a "lootcave" is nerfed another one rise up sooner or later and im convinced that when starchart 3.0 hits, draco will be ground zero (not that there is not other current solutions available)

Edited by GordoFreeman
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Draco

 

Made a thread that touched on this, kinda.

The key point here, is that if the goal of Star Chart 3.0 is to make the players span out across all nodes, then we should have some incentive to not spend all of our time in Endless missions. Forma, Focus, and Syndicate Standing all encourage players to always be on the lookout to gain Affinity in the most efficient manner possible, and there is a massive difference in efficiency between using a node like Draco for 20 minutes, and spending that same amount of time running Exterminates or Deceptions (unless you take a stealth loadout on Solo - good luck stealthing around on Public). Even missions with unique reward pools like Spies are only so rewarding as long as players actually need what the "Mission Complete" screen can offer - I have Ivara, I have Covert Lethality, and there are faster ways to get cores (namely, killing enemies en masse with a single Radial Javelin), doing Spies any longer is a waste of time for me unless they come up in Sorties.

Once we've finished out our quests and filled the Star Chart, we have nothing to do but power level and collect cores, and no reason not to. Everything else adds up to make caves like Draco the fastest way to do so; that mass murder takes less effort than stealth play is just the cherry on top.

 

Dual Primaries

 

I mean... sure? I'd just kinda like to see some new Infested Dual Pistols at some point, before we go off to grind out AkSoma Prime.

Although there is still art of Ember wielding AkBoltors...

 

Crowd Control Prevalence

 

It isn't an issue, but it is.

The heavy emphasis on Crowd Control in team compositions is not done for the sake of playing cheap; rather, the problem there is on the enemies, because of the number of one-shot mechanics that they present at higher levels of play (so CC spam is tied to our endgame). With the exception of a few frames whose abilities maintain some static form of invulnerability or evasion (because even with 99.75% DR, it's ridiculous how easy it is for a sortie-level Sapper Osprey to kill a Trinity), many frames will spend a good chunk of end-level missions on the ground, unless the enemy ceases firing upon them entirely. Diminishing returns on crowd control would just make missions pointlessly more difficult unless enemies and/or frame survivability were re-tuned first to prevent insta-kills under any circumstances.

What IS an issue, is the number of frames who are designed with the 'unique gimmick' of providing Crowd Control as their one scaling mechanic - for instance, Hydroid, Zephyr and the first iteration of Accelerant Ember. As a player deciding on their loadout for the next mission, my first thought in response to "I should bring a CCer" is not likely to be Hydroid (in spite of his versatility in that field) because there are so many other relevant frame options who don't make it harder to kill enemies and provide more reliable forms, and most really only need one skill to keep an enemy off of them.

 

Mandatory Mods: Warframes

 

I think Warframes are more of a grey area.

When you build a weapon, the first thing you do is build on its output as a baseline (damage, multishot, room for elements), then focus on the merits or downsides of the weapon itself (crit, fire rate, status, etc). It's very rare that a mod like Multishot is considered optional or less effective than not - about two weapons at the moment, really (Penta due to its grenade cap, and Simulor). That's why damage mods need to go, and multishot needs to become optional.

When you build a Warframe, you always build to the frame. Sure I have a "basic" build which is just bonuses in health, shields and all power stats, but that's just until I can feel the frame out to make a specialized build that plays into their merits; I may use bonus Shields on my Volt and Mag, but forgo it for Rage on my Oberon and Trinity, forgo all Survivability on Loki, and only ever use Armor on my Atlas, Frost and Chroma. Equilibrium is a gimmick mod in most builds and a staple in others. Flow pairs well with Quick Thinking, but is overkill with high Efficiency. There's no single mod that is going to be in 100% of your builds across all frames (except for mods some players prefer to QoL), especially since there are a variety of potent options to maximize every possible setup, so using one "staple" mod will always force a choice against another.

 

Edit: I think the closest thing we may have to a "mandatory" stat is Efficiency - not because players will die to go without it (in most missions, Streamline's just a matter of convenience over necessity), but because of the number of challenge missions (like Sorties or the last event, Shadow Debt) that cut down your energy to the point where some abilities aren't even castable without a high amount of it. Even then, the recent changes to how Duration affects toggled abilities still forces players to gauge how much they need.

Edited by Archwizard
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Draco:

So...Draco. The place everyone loves but at the same time hates. True, I hate seeing a full page of H Dracos in recruiting. I don't like that people who just start playing the game can jump right into it. What really gets on my nerve though is the way it's always won. 3 meta frame(Rhino, RJ Excal, an EV trin, and one other w/e) This is what is annoying. Now how do you do this without nerfing a frame? That's the hard part. Nerfing RJ would not be good since he needs that. EV trin would not be a good change right now. Rhino also doesnt need a change. So the only thing that'd need to change is the tileset for Draco. Make it a tile set where RJ cant be spammed for an easy win. Where people actually need to work for their exp. This would keep the power leveling without having the camp-leveling.

 

Dual Primaries:

This would sound nice for certain weapons. I'd love to have an Aktigris or an Akhek. It'd be pretty darn awesome.

 

CC:

I think CC is definitely needed. But the problem seems to be that enemies have absolutely no resistance to them. So maybe RNG the CC. Make it so enemies during the x seconds roll for escaping the CC. So lets say you cast Mirages blind. Say your blind has 20 seconds on it. 5 of those seconds guarantee the blind. After 5 seconds the rest of the time has a random chance of the enemy escaping the CC. Same could be said for other frames with CC. But then you get the frames like Nyx where their CC is soft CC. This should remain the same. Only the CC that 100% stunlock enemies should change.

 

Mandatory Mods:

This is somewhat irritating but so far the only mandatory mod I've ever used is almost always a duration mod. Whether its -% or +% some for of duration mod is used. Almost every build uses Transient FOrtitude. Almost every build used Primed Continuity. Every build uses range mods as well usually just a stretch though. 

 

So while it is annoying that there is usually mandatory mods at the same time there isnt. Where one frame I could use a TF/ Intensify for a good build another could go full str for a good build(ie Valkyr). So there is still variety at the same time of consistency.

Edited by rawr1254
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Do you think some warframe Mods are practically mandatory?

Yes, some are too good not to use in a lot of builds.

 

^ Not in the sense that they need to be nerfed. More like everything else needs more love. Not on a ridiculous level though, there has to be a nice balance to mods to encourage sidegrade-like builds.

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Draco: Posting because I selected "Other (post an explanation below)." for Draco:

 

It's not really a problem in itself, I guess it becomes one if people do nothing but Draco. I'm never there because it isn't my cup of tea anyway, so I don't feel like it's my place to call for changes. I don't even really know what the rate of experience gain is on that node, only that it's boring.

 

Here's one suggestion, though: If people feel like they have to run Draco, then maybe the alternatives should be brought closer to it?

 

 

Crowd Control - mixed feelings: It's our way to strategise. We have to deal with hordes of similar & mostly dumb enemies, CC lets us shape the flow of battle. Take it away and it's all about killing things fast. I wouldn't like that. On the other hand it's clear there are issues when e.g. LoR is only about "lock the whole map down while we do some puzzles". If this were about damage, then I'd selected "Yes, it isn't fun in many missions", if you catch my drift.

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- Draco
I've given my statements in various Draco threads, but my main issue with it is that players will jump to it and never bother to learn anything else.  This means a lot of players literally end up thinking that Draco is the only way to level gear.  I don't know of any change that would lessen this without being unfairly restrictive (like MR locks on nodes by level), because younger and impatient players will find something to flock to anyways.  Draco, Viver, ODD, it goes back a ways.


- Dual Primaries
A primary is a heavy, powerful gun.  A secondary is something you can use one-handed and whip out in an emergency or tight quarters.  Warframe in general has not always stuck to this design very well.  For secondaries even when you discount things like the Twin Grakata you have some pretty big, bulky weaponry there.  The Acrid, Angstrum, Ballistica, Kulstar, Stug, and others are as long or longer than your entire arm, and some are used two-handed like a primary.  So as far as consistency... it's kinda' out the window in normal combat regards anyways.


- Crowd Control
Assuming we're talking things like Nyx's Confuse and Nova's Prime slowdown and Excal's Blind... I wouldn't be opposed to crowd control abilities having a lessened effect with repeated use after they've worn off on the same target.  Like 75% of the previous duration each time, or 100%/75%/50%/25% and then 25% from then on or something.  If we could get this instead of bosses sitting around totally invincible 75% of the time that'd be pretty nice too.  Seriously lots of boss fights in Warframe consist of walking around waiting more than actual fighting.  I prefer Phorid and Corrupt Vor over Vay Hek for this reason.


- Mandatory Mods
For warframes, there's a variety in which mods are used depending on the frame and sometimes a player's personal preference or style.  This is good... it could use tweaks, but the system works.  With weapons however, there are a set of mods used on 95% of the weapons out there by established players, and that needs a fix.  Weapons need to scale inherently in damage (to remove the base damage mod), multishot needs a downside or mechanic change so it becomes situational, the impact of elemental mods needs to be reduced, etc.  The issue is these changes would also need enemy scaling changes to account for the "flattened" damage, so I understand it's not something that's quick to do.  But it needs to be looked at, planned, and done.

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Draco Leveling

As long as the best strategy to level weapons is to stand in a pile on Draco, we're a grind/farm game in that regard. For some reason forumites think time=grind and Draco is somehow saving them by making them bored but I think that's really silly. IMHO the best way to level weapons should be something fun and engaging like... playing the game... 

 

 

Crowd Control Prevalence

Ever since Survival was introduced the game has continually gone towards chaotic, messy, dog-pile fights and enemy difficulty is often synonymous with enemy density. It's not fun to be shot at from 360* by procs, DoT's and knockdowns all the time so good cover and CC application are currently improving the gameplay IMO.

 

Diminishing returns for special enemies like invaders and bosses makes sense, but please improve spawn logic and enemy behavior before reducing general CC (or cover) ability availability/application against standard enemies and Eximus units. 

Edited by VKhaun
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