Building Warframe: Conclave Improvements

[Kontrollo]

5 hours ago, (XB1)Zoltan6201 said:

Please refrain from ad hominem attacks or characterizing people's concerns as "complaining".  It just lowers the quality of discourse

Perhaps I was not clear. I am only concerned about PvP balancing regarding future DS Conflicts.  People may PvP all they want. I do not believe that it is popular at all.  No one I know plays Conclave.  This is a PvE game that has PvP added later.  Many have asked for participation stats, but none have been released.

This was not meant as an ad hominem. I didn't call you names, now did I? I just said that if you're unwilling to make your own experiences with this game mode, you should probably not complain about it. And no, "complaining" or "a complaint" are not offensive words. Complaints may very well be valid ones, but they have to be grounded and backed with facts. If you like that better, just replace that word in my previous post with "concerns" or similar in your mind. That was my intention, don't read too much into it.

You were clear enough. You said you don't believe they need to do any balancing, i.e. that balancing is unnecessary.

But myself, I've played my fair share of both the old Dark Sectors and Conclave 2.0 and the new PvP is so much better than the old one, it's not even a contest. Dark Sectors were horrible and I'm glad they're gone.

It's a mystery to me, though, why you're now bringing up PvE. The old Dark Sectors were PvP for the longest time

.

5 hours ago, (XB1)Zoltan6201 said:

I was responding to Feyangol's claim that only 2-3 people work on Conclave.  I should have quoted them

I was aware of that.

 

5 hours ago, (XB1)Zoltan6201 said:

For argument's sake, you cannot logically questions one's belief and then follow up with "I think".  It's a non-sequitur.

Reading comprehension. The "I think" is in a separate paragraph and only tangentially related.

So let me clarify: That last part was a conjecture; I think they haven't released more information because it's still being debated/developed/evaluated. I think it will return in a new form, but there's nothing solid to show as of now.

 

5 hours ago, (XB1)Zoltan6201 said:

I have a lot of experience in Dark Sector conflicts.  There was NO balancing then.  They weren't "imbalanced".  How were they imbalanced?

They were a lot of fun.  All they need to do is remove are the exploits.

Dark Sector Conflicts were halted over a year ago.

They specifically announced in many DevStreams that they are working on DS.  That is not in question.  RE:  DevStream 69 30:32

Yeah exactly, there was no balancing at all. How can you say they weren't imbalanced?

It was all about who could abuse the broken PvE mechanics faster/better. And don't even try to tell anyone otherwise, stuff like e.g. Bladestorm is just plain broken in a PvP context. On top of that people were also gaming the whole system in and outside the game: bait-and-switch rewards, induced lagging, spawn camping, I think there were even DDoS attacks at some point. And the list goes on.

If you think that was a lot of fun, then you sure have a strange sense of fun, imho. But of course, to each their own. I'm just glad we're done with that and look forward to a new and improved implementation.

As for the Rail/Specter stuff: Yes, I hope as well that we get more information on that and that we get refunds if it's discontinued.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Kontrollo

[(XBOX)Zoltan6201]

11 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

This was not meant as an ad hominem. I didn't call you names, now did I? I just said that if you're unwilling to make your own experiences with this game mode, you should probably not complain about it. And no, "complaining" or "a complaint" are not offensive words. Complaints may very well be valid ones, but they have to be grounded and backed with facts. If you like that better, just replace that word in my previous post with "concerns" or similar in your mind. That was my intention, don't read too much into it.

It is not necessary for someone to personally experience any event in order to forma a valid opinion if they are familiar with the mechanics and methods of said event.  Are you really trying to say that one cannot be completely knowledgeable about Conclave if they have watched hours of live gameplay?

To dismiss an argument as a complaint is offensive. I would suggest that you try telling your significant other, father or mother that their comment or opinion about something is 'complaining' and see how they interpret it. 

11 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Yeah exactly, there was no balancing at all. How can you say they weren't imbalanced?

It was all about who could abuse the broken PvE mechanics faster/better. And don't even try to tell anyone otherwise, stuff like e.g. Bladestorm is just plain broken in a PvP context. On top of that people were also gaming the whole system in and outside the game: bait-and-switch rewards, induced lagging, spawn camping, I think there were even DDoS attacks at some point. And the list goes on.

At the time, Mesa was just as deadly as Ash.  There are always methods to counter any warframe's abilities.  Hydroid and Banshee can counter Ash's blade storm. Mirage and Ember are deadly.  There are even weapons like the halikar which can disarm opponents.  It all depended on your build.  I found that enjoyable and challenging.  My build clan's builds can beat your clan's builds.  In practice, it was fun.

I really enjoyed the combat and tactics because you did not start out with all of your abilities and mods.  That was challenging.  

I have conceded that cheats and exploits (DDoS) would have to be countered. 

My whole contention is that if they insist on PvP balancing DS Conflicts and require Conclave mods, that it's not going to be as great as it could be.

[Kontrollo]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)Zoltan6201 said:

It is not necessary for someone to personally experience any event in order to forma a valid opinion if they are familiar with the mechanics and methods of said event.  Are you really trying to say that one cannot be completely knowledgeable about Conclave if they have watched hours of live gameplay?

To dismiss an argument as a complaint is offensive. I would suggest that you try telling your significant other, father or mother that their comment or opinion about something is 'complaining' and see how they interpret it.

That's exactly what I'm saying, yes. You cannot be completely knowledgeable about Conclave without trying it yourself. Just as I can't be completely knowledgeable about, say, driving a car even if I've sat in a passenger seat for all my life.

It is only offensive to you because you choose to get offended by it. I said as well, read it as if I'd written "concerns" if you like that better.

And yes, I do tell people I know to stop complaining if it's just for the sake of it. But I won't if they have a good reason to do so, which is when they can back up their complaints with facts, because that's when they're being constructive.

 

19 minutes ago, (XB1)Zoltan6201 said:

It is not necessary for someone to personally experience any event in order to forma a valid opinion if they are familiar with the mechanics and methods of said event.  Are you really trying to say that one cannot be completely knowledgeable about Conclave if they have watched hours of live gameplay?

To dismiss an argument as a complaint is offensive. I would suggest that you try telling your significant other, father or mother that their comment or opinion about something is 'complaining' and see how they interpret it. 

At the time, Mesa was just as deadly as Ash. ...

Yes, as I said, cheese and whoever was faster at getting to the point to use said cheese. Mesa was literally an aimbot for crying out loud! I played it for a while and it was broken. Now we have a game mode where you can pick what you want (more or less, they're getting there), and if you're good you will succeed. Even starter gear is competitive. The old mechanics are a joke in comparison, and a bad one at that.

By the way, most current Conclave mods are trade-offs; gain mobility, but sacrifice shields. Stuff like that.

 

Anyway, I've said all I wanted to say, so I'm done here. Feel free to send me a PM if you want to discuss this further.

[Drenlin]

Honestly, I think the biggest single improvement that could come to Conclave would be moving to a server/client layout instead of host/client.  Servers aren't cheap but considering the low number of people that play Conclave, it wouldn't be THAT expensive to get going.

CCP just moved Tranquility onto new hardware...maybe you guys should look into what they're doing with the old hardware from that beast, haha. Pretty sure it could run all of Warframe and then some.

[(XBOX)Clxde]

Players being paired up with similar skill levels will increase the enjoy-ability in conclave. 

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

How about all mods can be used from pve and pvp

[(PSN)R-Zab__v2]

On February 26, 2016 at 9:01 AM, (PS4)Xx-Ribbium-xX said:

As the ps4 champion I have noticed some major flaws in how weapons have been balanced for example mk1 weapons deal so much damage even though they are starter weapons that you can buy for credits another issue is that melee channel attacks 1shot the majority of the time and they need nerfed so it encourages new players to use guns rather than running around pressing O       constantly please take this into      consideration for the next update 

LOL

[(PSN)Xx-Ribbium-xX]

7 hours ago, (PS4)R-Zab__v2 said:

LOL

xDddddddddd

[Vengeful99]

Whoever wrote this article should consider a career in presidential speeches. Aside from the bit of info on duels and a matchmaking option that should have been implemented long ago, it`s just a puff piece on how great this jumpfest is. No new maps since forever, some frames that are 4 to win in PVE don`t even have a functional ultimate while those that were 4 to CC can kill a full squad.

You took out the best PVP mode this game had to offer, namely Rails, to turn them into more PVE. And to add insult to injury you`re gonna force on us more jump and run gameplay and call it "a sport". But since there isn`t much info on Lunaro maybe you`ll come to your senses, revert the Conclave to PVP 1.0, bring back the PVP Rails and pull off a "Surprise, surprise! THIS is what we were going for with Lunaro from the get-go".

Discuss on forums.

[-InV-Skitz0]

On 5/21/2016 at 3:34 PM, Vengeful99 said:

Whoever wrote this article should consider a career in presidential speeches. Aside from the bit of info on duels and a matchmaking option that should have been implemented long ago, it`s just a puff piece on how great this jumpfest is. No new maps since forever, some frames that are 4 to win in PVE don`t even have a functional ultimate while those that were 4 to CC can kill a full squad.

You took out the best PVP mode this game had to offer, namely Rails, to turn them into more PVE. And to add insult to injury you`re gonna force on us more jump and run gameplay and call it "a sport". But since there isn`t much info on Lunaro maybe you`ll come to your senses, revert the Conclave to PVP 1.0, bring back the PVP Rails and pull off a "Surprise, surprise! THIS is what we were going for with Lunaro from the get-go".

Discuss on forums.

This article was written over  3 months ago so it isn't up to date. Adam does not even work at DE anymore.  The second half of your post seems  relevant but you should probably create your own post for it and not try to nekro this one and let this old Tenno rest in peace.

[Vengeful99]

1 hour ago, -InV-Skitz0 said:

This article was written over  3 months ago so it isn't up to date. Adam does not even work at DE anymore.  The second half of your post seems  relevant but you should probably create your own post for it and not try to nekro this one and let this old Tenno rest in peace.

Understood. Sad that there is no new news on any new PVP development though. If you want decent PVP on this game you can either post in Conclave feedback and get ignored or necro DE posts in hopes that they`ll listen. 

[Alucard-TheGrandVampire]

First:We need a dedicate sever for PVP.Second:Add bots so that we can practice without being destroyed by some jumping spider-man.Finally:Conclave is getting bored since i meet the same opponent in every match

 

[(PSN)willitical]

I would play if clans could compete against other clans

[lihimsidhe]

@DE_Adam: March 26th is the last post on a thread started by an official DE_employee, for the game's featured PVP mode, on one of the most played games on Steam.  Take that as you will but it's a good sign to tell me Conclave isn't anywhere where it needs to be (perhaps there would be more activity if you actually responded to the people here?).  I'm here to tell you why I feel Conclave will continue to languish in the limelight and what can be done to improve it.

I tried Conclave a few times in the year or so I've been playing Warframe.  If PVE and PVP were both sandboxes PVE is akin to the Sahara Desert replete with all the gear I've spent a considerable amount of time obtaining, rich and diversified maps, and active user base.  PVP is like asking me to forsake that rich desert and instead go play in a literal sandbox in the middle of an unpopular park with a fraction of content that the PVE desert has.  From the get go, it is not an interesting proposition to me even though I do enjoy the concept of PVP.

Conclave needs at least two modes: Standard and Extended.

Standard Conclave.  This is exactly what you're doing now with all its limitations.  I understand why this mode exists.  I don't like it but I understand.  My only suggestion would to have the option to play on the maps actually used in the PVE game.  

Extended Conclave.  What I'm about to suggest was actually in the game initially (from what I can gather) but was taken out.  Players can fight against one another using the same exact gear they use in PVE.  I'm a Dark Souls player.  The same gear I use in PVE is the same exact gear I use in PVP.  They are one in the same.  There is no, "All those mods that make your WF awesome?  Well forget those and use these crappy Standard Conclave mods instead!"   Is that like apples and oranges comparing Dark Souls to Warframe?  Yes.  But DE had a choice to keep PVE and PVP in harmony w/o the need for a Standard Conclave and for w/e reason... chose not to.

It's only in this environment where players can see which Warframe is truly the best when all restrictions are taken off.  I understand and accept the amounts of cheese that will occur.  I understand the salt that will result from entire teams getting Bladestormed, Chaosed, Tonkored, Synoid Simulored,Syndicate blasted, sniped from a truly invisible Loki, etc.... I get it.  But I want to fight against that cheese.  I want to see if anything I can come up with can stand a chance against other Tenno at their best.  I want to bring my best game to the table.  And if that means I get cheesed then I get cheesed.  I can get better or start spewing salt.

So the question is what would it hurt to have one location on the Star Chart be a PVP/PVE free for all?  Just one?   A place where if any Warframe player goes they know they are about to enter a world of pain.  The only drops come from mobs with ammo and resource drops.  Perhaps the metrics you have access to reveal why this original iteration of Conclave was removed but this mode would hold a GREAT interest for me.

Standard Conclave is like how I view sports.  I'd be much more interested if all sports were co-ed.  I do not care about the physiological differences between men and women.  All I care about is seeing the best humans compete against the best humans.  Those who have the strength of will and discipline will overcome and triumph despite their differences.  As it stands our sports are divided by sexes for the most part and I can't stand it.  Seems so backwards.  It's in that vein which I view Standard Conclave.   Even so, I understand the need for it.  Some Tenno prefer that mode.  This Tenno however does not and I can't be the only one who feels that way.

Plus there is no way that no one in DE doesn't think it would be awesome for our missions to be 'invaded' by other Tenno.  Perhaps they broke away from the Lotus and work for the Grinner, Corpus, Syndicates, or even themselves.  Whatever the case may be they are out to see us defeated by any means necessary.  Forget Nullifiers and Bombards being the biggest threat in the game.  You just got invaded by a Nova Prime with max duration.  You better think fast or die in slow motion.  That prospect absolutely excites me to no end.

None of the YouTubers I follow (Mogamu, H3adSh0t, A Gay Guy Plays, Brozime, Tactical Potato) cover Conclave in the slightest.  And the few times I did play Conclave the hardest part was waiting for the ghost town that it is to have enough people to actually play.  If you're fine with Conclave being in a perpetual lame duck status then keep doing what is being done.  Fine tuning just Standard Conclave will result in just that.

However, I feel Conclave's destiny lays in its original, salt generating, best vs best, roots.

[-InV-Skitz0]

6 hours ago, lihimsidhe said:

@DE_Adam: March 26th is the last post on a thread started by an official DE_employee, for the game's featured PVP mode, on one of the most played games on Steam.  Take that as you will but it's a good sign to tell me Conclave isn't anywhere where it needs to be (perhaps there would be more activity if you actually responded to the people here?).  I'm here to tell you why I feel Conclave will continue to languish in the limelight and what can be done to improve it.

I tried Conclave a few times in the year or so I've been playing Warframe.  If PVE and PVP were both sandboxes PVE is akin to the Sahara Desert replete with all the gear I've spent a considerable amount of time obtaining, rich and diversified maps, and active user base.  PVP is like asking me to forsake that rich desert and instead go play in a literal sandbox in the middle of an unpopular park with a fraction of content that the PVE desert has.  From the get go, it is not an interesting proposition to me even though I do enjoy the concept of PVP.

Conclave needs at least two modes: Standard and Extended.

Standard Conclave.  This is exactly what you're doing now with all its limitations.  I understand why this mode exists.  I don't like it but I understand.  My only suggestion would to have the option to play on the maps actually used in the PVE game.  

Extended Conclave.  What I'm about to suggest was actually in the game initially (from what I can gather) but was taken out.  Players can fight against one another using the same exact gear they use in PVE.  I'm a Dark Souls player.  The same gear I use in PVE is the same exact gear I use in PVP.  They are one in the same.  There is no, "All those mods that make your WF awesome?  Well forget those and use these crappy Standard Conclave mods instead!"   Is that like apples and oranges comparing Dark Souls to Warframe?  Yes.  But DE had a choice to keep PVE and PVP in harmony w/o the need for a Standard Conclave and for w/e reason... chose not to.

It's only in this environment where players can see which Warframe is truly the best when all restrictions are taken off.  I understand and accept the amounts of cheese that will occur.  I understand the salt that will result from entire teams getting Bladestormed, Chaosed, Tonkored, Synoid Simulored,Syndicate blasted, sniped from a truly invisible Loki, etc.... I get it.  But I want to fight against that cheese.  I want to see if anything I can come up with can stand a chance against other Tenno at their best.  I want to bring my best game to the table.  And if that means I get cheesed then I get cheesed.  I can get better or start spewing salt.

So the question is what would it hurt to have one location on the Star Chart be a PVP/PVE free for all?  Just one?   A place where if any Warframe player goes they know they are about to enter a world of pain.  The only drops come from mobs with ammo and resource drops.  Perhaps the metrics you have access to reveal why this original iteration of Conclave was removed but this mode would hold a GREAT interest for me.

Standard Conclave is like how I view sports.  I'd be much more interested if all sports were co-ed.  I do not care about the physiological differences between men and women.  All I care about is seeing the best humans compete against the best humans.  Those who have the strength of will and discipline will overcome and triumph despite their differences.  As it stands our sports are divided by sexes for the most part and I can't stand it.  Seems so backwards.  It's in that vein which I view Standard Conclave.   Even so, I understand the need for it.  Some Tenno prefer that mode.  This Tenno however does not and I can't be the only one who feels that way.

Plus there is no way that no one in DE doesn't think it would be awesome for our missions to be 'invaded' by other Tenno.  Perhaps they broke away from the Lotus and work for the Grinner, Corpus, Syndicates, or even themselves.  Whatever the case may be they are out to see us defeated by any means necessary.  Forget Nullifiers and Bombards being the biggest threat in the game.  You just got invaded by a Nova Prime with max duration.  You better think fast or die in slow motion.  That prospect absolutely excites me to no end.

None of the YouTubers I follow (Mogamu, H3adSh0t, A Gay Guy Plays, Brozime, Tactical Potato) cover Conclave in the slightest.  And the few times I did play Conclave the hardest part was waiting for the ghost town that it is to have enough people to actually play.  If you're fine with Conclave being in a perpetual lame duck status then keep doing what is being done.  Fine tuning just Standard Conclave will result in just that.

However, I feel Conclave's destiny lays in its original, salt generating, best vs best, roots.

Adam no longer works at DE. You've just Nekrosed an old post my friend.

[Muddra]

Sorry to get off topic, but i think it would be a great idea to make a praying mantis type of a Warframe. This was in my head for the longest of times XD

[Sigmas71]

On 7/25/2016 at 10:03 AM, lihimsidhe said:

-snip-

However, I feel Conclave's destiny lays in its original, salt generating, best vs best, roots.

I'd like to digress 100% from this. Even conclave 1.0 used to depend on player agreements and rules (restrictions, yes, boo, whatever) in order to be enjoyable. You'd know this if you had been here, but the cheesefest you are suggesting was the primary reason why old pvp was even MORE of a ghost town than it currently is.  

And here i am on a dead post from an ex-admin just to ask you this. Why would you think it makes sense to ask for chaos and "enjoy" it? We have the opportunity to one day see the "best compete against the best" like you said. why do you think a symmirage rave party is the ideal setting for this to happen? In any case, it seems you're just infatuated by the concept of a true "free for all" in a game where everyone is practically a god, but i can promise you it gets old pretty damn fast. My suggestion is to remove all mods, enable all frames and weapons, and continue to adjust their pvp stats in a sensible manner. Players will fight tooth and nail relying on nothing but the tools they've mastered (no, not modded and cheesed out, but acquired true skill through practiced use).

That is what "conclave" should be about. Not who can stack most range on their radial nuke 4. The idea of dedicated nodes to do this is interesting however. I'd like to see pve missions with friendly fire enabled. I guess thats all it would take. 

[lihimsidhe]

7 hours ago, Sigmas71 said:

That is what "conclave" should be about. Not who can stack most range on their radial nuke 4. The idea of dedicated nodes to do this is interesting however. I'd like to see pve missions with friendly fire enabled. I guess thats all it would take. 

That's rare where someone actually takes the time to see what I'm saying.  I don't want to mess with Conclave.  People who love Conclave should have it as it is.  I'm talking about another mode in addition to Conclave.  

Before Warframe I was and an huge fan of Dark Souls.  Because of that I have a real fondness for PVE/PVP bleed through.  I fully understand a game like DS is balanced with PVP from the get go and WF is not at all.  But even so... even if it IS a cheesefest... I want to play it.  Conclave to me is like powerful anime characters only fighting in their base forms.  It's a good place to start the discussion but you don't know who would really win until their full power is allowed to be brought to the table.

I do want to say this based on my experience with Magic: The Gathering and Dark Souls... I think a PVE/PVP bleed through could be served well by two simple concepts:

Health and Shield Gating.  Depending on a player's current shields, health, and armor values there is a minimum amount of times a player can take lethal damage and survive at 1 health.  The minimum gate for all Warframes is 2; 1 for shields and 1 for health.  An unmodded Banshee might just have the minimum gate of 2.  However a max rank Valkyr with max rank physique, steel fiber, vitality, redirection, vigor, and armored agility might have a gating of 6  at full health and shields.  If she was at 0 shields 1 health, and full armor her gating might be just 3.  In only the most extreme cases of damage then gates could be bypassed.  Because if we have a Limbo using a max rank Rift Surge with a Tonkor, shooting grenades on a Banshee Sonar spot, with a damage buff from Rhino, with an Equinox increasing power strength from there?  Then yes they should be able to one shot a player.  But damn make them work for it.

Mods and Anti Mods.  Let's just picture a scenario where Ash was the #1 frame in this mode.  Instead of nerfing Bladestorm release a mod called Flash Response. Any time you would receive a high speed attack, you have a 50% chance to block it and inflict its damage back upon the attacker.  Mods like this would give rise to rotating metas.  Build your frame to execute your unique plan or build to defeat the meta.  Iron Will: You have a 90% chance to resist all mental attacks.  Fortified Gear: Any time you would be disarmed, you have a 10% chance to be disarmed instead.  

With 8 slots per frame a player would have a choice to deal with the 8 most likely frames they are going to run across.  Then you run into Limbo and you have nothing to deal with him.  And he dominates.  Is this Limbo guy sticking around on this map?  Do I want to give up my counters against Bladestorm to deal with this random LImbo player?  Or should I give up my anti slowdown mod because I haven't seen Frosts or Novas all day.  

Or maybe you are just going to say the F with all that noise and go with a max duration/efficiency Ivara and camp in some corner with a silenced weapon.  Hopefully there are no Banshees around that after update so and so reveal the location of all invisible enemies within the range of her sound abilities.  What to do.

After a while I would imagine this opens up the game to having other Tenno invade our games.  Or we take a bounty placed on another Tenno by another Tenno.  Hell I would even like what you said where friendly fire was on even in coop.  You'd really have to get tactical and talk to your team about what you're doing and really respect the power you wield so carelessly in your hands otherwise.



 

[SanguineSavant]

I think your PVP's success is reliant on entertainment in ratio to it's rewards, as this is the reason Warframe PVE is successful as it combines the entertainment value of action games with the reward style of an MMORPG. That said, I would throw in a rathuum style mode where players compete to get the most points before dying. Because you've brought in players who enjoy the grind of MMO's - and I see many of them at the relays having discussions, I can't help but acknowledge they are reluctant to endure PVP because they don't gravitate towards that spectrum of wanting to top their fellow man (that and we are carbon based, not sodium based lifeforms) and would rather gain rewards in a much less stressful manner.