Synoid Simulor: Crit or no?

[(NSW)BlaineKodos]

I've had this thing for months and due to not liking the Simulor, I got it to 30 and promptly forgot about it. I noted it was easier to use, but mostly didn't feel like bothering with it any further. After the rise of Sorties, I've seen them very regularly to the point people seem to swear by their power. So I figured I'd give it the benefit of the doubt and forma it up to see what it can really do. Looking up on the Builder for the most popular builds, I started questioning if people are really using it correctly (Hammer Shot on both top builds makes me wary) and figured since some new crit and Primed mods have rolled out since those went up, I'd ask.

Is it worth building with crit in mind (since it will only hit 25% if you build for it, and mid 30-ish if Argon Scope procs) or are you better off doing another elemental combo in its place?

[RagingGrizzly]

I find that building for crit isn't the way to go.

[Ruby_Rose_]

Usually pure damage (excluding Split Chamber) is the better option for this weapon. It doesn't have high enough crit for it to be viable as a crit weapon.

I'd say a weapon needs probably a minimum of 60-70% crit chance with mods to be considered a viable crit weapon. This is because if you build for crit, you generally tend to also build for crit multiplier, and then that mod (or mods) would be useless if you can't reliably crit.

[(PSN)sanemane213]

17 minutes ago, BlaineKodos said:

I've had this thing for months and due to not liking the Simulor, I got it to 30 and promptly forgot about it. I noted it was easier to use, but mostly didn't feel like bothering with it any further. After the rise of Sorties, I've seen them very regularly to the point people seem to swear by their power. So I figured I'd give it the benefit of the doubt and forma it up to see what it can really do. Looking up on the Builder for the most popular builds, I started questioning if people are really using it correctly (Hammer Shot on both top builds makes me wary) and figured since some new crit and Primed mods have rolled out since those went up, I'd ask.

Is it worth building with crit in mind (since it will only hit 25% if you build for it, and mid 30-ish if Argon Scope procs) or are you better off doing another elemental combo in its place?

1. Yes. It's a Weapon with innate AoE. Keep in mind Weapons with this innate ult. has a very high chance to crit, regardless of its low crit chance compared to most.
2. Hammer shot only increases DMG by about 27% compared to a normal 90% elemental Mod increasing stats by, well, 90%.
3. Argon Scope is going to be a No since Weapons with innate AoE has a low chance to headshot. Just like any Weapon with AoE, it's used for CC.
4. Simulor has a rather low status chance. Building for both CRIT, seeing how it has a 4.4x CRIT multiplier, and elements to enhance base DMG and CRIT, will be the better way to go.
5. While on the Subject: DO NOT use Split Chamber with the Simulor/Synoid Simulor. Simulor has perfect accuracy, which in terms means the second projectile will merge with the initial projectile right when you press the trigger key, and you will lose DMG instead of gaining upon every convergence. Merge DMG will also stay constant, making your chance of DMG Fall off even higher in late games.

 

In place of Split Chamber, use a Fire rate mod instead. Your main goal is to get the projectiles to merge as quickly as possible, allowing for more DMG in shorter amounts of time. As for a build:

3 Forma
-Serration
-Heavy Caliber
-Vile Acceleration, in place of SC.
-Point Strike
-Vital Sense
-And 2 90% elemental Mods of your choosing.

Hopes this helps a bit. Synoid Simulor is 10x better than the normal one, BTW. Much more fun!

[(PSN)TheYetiMan22]

Do not be fooled by the lack of crit chance numbers, a crit based Simulor is perfectly viable into Sortie content if you aim multiple projectiles just above the heads of mobs. You'll see loads of yellow numbers. 

I think people get put off the low crit chance numbers with weapons but I think it is really dependent on the weapon type. Arrows/Snipers must have a high crit chance as you normally get two shots with a split chamber mod, so it has to crit. But auto guns can be viable with with a crit chance of 25% becaues of how many bullets your pumping in them in quick succession, especially with a high ROF (aiming for headshots obviously). 

I find my Crit Braton Prime perfectly usable, heck I even use a crit Prisma Tetra. Shame about it's poor damage output but Chroma is your friend...

But each to their own.

Edited February 27, 2016 by (PS4)TheYetiMan22

[S0V3REiGN]

11 hours ago, (PS4)sanemane213 said:

1. Argon Scope is going to be a No since Weapons with innate AoE has a low chance to headshot. Just like any Weapon with AoE, it's used for CC.

I am going to stop you right here. I have tried Argon Scope on the Synoid Simulor, it procs AS it every single time you fire it.

[ClinkzEastwood]

Yes.

Synoid Simulor almost always headshot duo to how AoE guns works in this game, effectively quadruple your damage output everytime you crit.

You can crit for like 60k damage if you build the gun properly.

Most effective build is Serration ,Heavy cal, Vile Acceleration, Point Strike, Vital Sense, 2 elementals and Argon scope.

For reference:

A Synoid Simulor with 4 elementals, Serration, Heavy Cal, Vile acceleration and Vital sense will have:

(175*(4.15(base damage+serration+heavy cal-vile))+175*(4.15*0.9*4(base damage+serration+heavy cal-vile+4x90 elementals)))*0.9(times not critting)+(175*(4.15)+175*(4.15*0.9*4))*0.1(Base crit chance)*4.4(Base crit damage+Vital Sense)=4477 damage per stack on average

It'd be

(175*(4.15)+175*(4.15*0.9*4))*0.9*2(headshot multiplier)+(175*(4.15)+175*(4.15*0.9*4))*0.1*4.4*4(headcrit multipler)=11893 damage per stack on average head shot

Now with 2 elementals, Serration, Heavy Cal, Vile Acceleration, point strike, vital sense, argon scope we will have:

(175*(4.15)+175*(4.15*0.9*2))*0.615+(175*(4.15)+175*(4.15*0.9*2))*0.385*4.4=4695 damage per stack on average

It'd be

(175*(4.15)+175*(4.15*0.9*2))*0.615*2+(175*(4.15)+175*(4.15*0.9*2))*0.385*4.4*4=16280 damage per stack on head shot on average

As you can see, crit buld is pretty much superior to elemental build with this gun. And with increased crit chance, you will actually crit more reliably (average 5-6 crits per magazine) instead of relying on luck (average 1-2 crit per magazine).

The calculation was taken with the gun's lowest stack damage. If the wiki is correct then there is currently a bug that prevents the gun to have the highest stack damage when it forms a vortex.

Edited February 28, 2016 by ClinkzEastwood

[(PSN)sanemane213]

9 hours ago, S0V3REiGN said:

I am going to stop you right here. I have tried Argon Scope on the Synoid Simulor, it procs AS it every single time you fire it.

K. Don't know what you're getting at with the "I am going to stop your right here" bit, but thanks for the heads up. More dmg for me once it hits consoles.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Crit all the way and i have rank 3 avenger which even takes it further. Though i dont use hammershot just a max vital sense and getting 3,600 damage per stack. Im set like chet

[Ruby_Rose_]

16 hours ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

Yes.

Synoid Simulor almost always headshot duo to how AoE guns works in this game, effectively quadruple your damage output everytime you crit.

You can crit for like 60k damage if you build the gun properly.

:c I went through the trouble to reply with a full, more accurate calculation. Because those numbers aren't explained all that well, and given the values, it doesn't make much sense. It honestly looks like you're reapplying/adding damage repeatedly to both builds.

The main thing I think that is really skewing your numbers, is that you're looking at it as if you always crit, that and you're weakening the non crit build with Vital Sense. Vital Sense has no place on non-crit builds. I mean 10% chance to do 4.4x damage isn't worth considering, it might as well just stay 2.0x since you won't crit often enough to benefit.

In my post that I lost, I had replaced it with Speed Trigger, and it resulted in only a ~4k DPS change. Being the Crit build having an expected DPS around 22.4k and no Crit right around 18k. Keeping in mind both have a lot of variance, where Crit could spike way up or down, and non-crit is pretty stable. I mean if you mod it properly it can't affect DPS enough to make that drastic of a difference.

Whether you build crit ot not HEAVILY relies on having/getting Argon Scope. And personally, I don't see it as worth it. Slightly higher DPS that's unstable doesn't suit me that well. I'd rather take the consistent and reliable damage instead of the damage being all over.

So both builds are equally viable really. It just a matter of how much you want your DPS to rely on RNG.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Ruby_Rose_

[ClinkzEastwood]

39 minutes ago, Ruby_Rose_ said:

:c I went through the trouble to reply with a full, more accurate calculation. Because those numbers aren't explained all that well, and given the values, it doesn't make much sense. It honestly looks like you're reapplying/adding damage repeatedly to both builds.

The main thing I think that is really skewing your numbers, is that you're looking at it as if you always crit, that and you're weakening the non crit build with Vital Sense. Vital Sense has no place on non-crit builds. I mean 10% chance to do 4.4x damage isn't worth considering, it might as well just stay 2.0x since you won't crit often enough to benefit.

In my post that I lost, I had replaced it with Speed Trigger, and it resulted in only a ~4k DPS change. Being the Crit build having an expected DPS around 22.4k and no Crit right around 18k. Keeping in mind both have a lot of variance, where Crit could spike way up or down, and non-crit is pretty stable. I mean if you mod it properly it can't affect DPS enough to make that drastic of a difference.

Whether you build crit ot not HEAVILY relies on having/getting Argon Scope. And personally, I don't see it as worth it. Slightly higher DPS that's unstable doesn't suit me that well. I'd rather take the consistent and reliable damage instead of the damage being all over.

So both builds are equally viable really. It just a matter of how much you want your DPS to rely on RNG.

If you replace Vital Sense in non-crit build with Speed trigger your average damage per shot would be:

(175*(4.3)+175*(4.3*0.9*4))*0.9+(175*(4.3)+175*(4.3*0.9*4))*0.1*2=3807

Your average damage per second would be:

3807*6.675=25411

At headshot:

((175*(4.3)+175*(4.3*0.9*4))*0.9*2+(175*(4.3)+175*(4.3*0.9*4))*0.1*2*4)=60074

with vital sense the damage per second is:

4638*5=23190

At headshot:

12323*5=61615

That was without considering the reduced time firing/time reloading that speed trigger+Vile Acceleration would give you.

DPS per magazine wise, the 2 builds are neck-to-neck with each other, with the former will be more reliable while the later will give you more sustained dps. Swapping speed trigger and vital sense is just user's preference.

They are however vastly inferior to crit build which give you 24325 dps and 84385 headshot dps.

Crit build is not unstable at all for Synoid simulor because of the nature of the gun. You crit 5 times on average for 1 magazine which has 15 rounds. And since the gun has incredible ammo efficiency you'd want to unload all of it's magazine in one go anyway.

Imma tagging my numbers tho.

Also you can buy Argon scope for like 40 plats :p

If you really can't have it tho I think Hammershot or Bladed rounds would be good alternatives. Gonna calculate them tho.

Edited February 28, 2016 by ClinkzEastwood

[Ruby_Rose_]

33 minutes ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

They are however vastly inferior to crit build which give you 24325 dps and 84385 headshot dps.

I really didn't want to type it out again, but your math is just really off.

Average DPS = ((Damage dealt on Crit * Crit chance) + (non-crit Damage * Inverse crit chance) * Headshot multiplier) * Fire rate. This gives you the Burst DPS, which factors everything but magazine and reload.

Your Crit damage would be: (Base Damage * ( Serration + HC - Vile) * ( Elemental (0.9) * amount))  * Crit Multiplier. Regular damage would be the same, just without the crit on the end. You then plug those into the above formula. So it'd look like this on the crit build roughly, given the mods you provided. Doing the math for your build it's roughly a damage of 2416 without a crit, and 11,501 with a crit.

With Argon scope giving a boosted 38.5% chance to crit, and plugging everything in it looks like this:

((11,501 * 0.385) + (2,416 * 0.615) * 2) * 5.073 = Avg DPS of around 37.5k.  Just keep in mind this value isn't the expected DPS, which is slightly lower due to the actual crit chance not directly applying about every 3rd hit as your crit chance would imply. It kind of does, but it's RNG.  So it can be higher or lower depending on luck.

That's 37.5k counting headshots and crit.. so where you got 80k I'll never know.  Granted, if you look at teh DPS if you were to only get headshots, it'd be something like 100k, but still that'd require 100% crit to reach

I will say I probably did mess up the calculation to the the average DPS, It might be different if both are done separately and then averaged or w/e. It's late, I probably shouldn't be doing math at this moment. xD

 

 

Edited February 28, 2016 by Ruby_Rose_

[ClinkzEastwood]

14 minutes ago, Ruby_Rose_ said:

I really didn't want to type it out again, but your math is just really off.

Average DPS = ((Damage dealt on Crit * Crit chance) + (non-crit Damage * Inverse crit chance) * Headshot multiplier) * Fire rate. This gives you the Burst DPS, which factors everything but magazine and reload.

Your Crit damage would be: (Base Damage * ( Serration + HC - Vile) * ( Elemental (0.9) * amount))  * Crit Multiplier. Regular damage would be the same, just without the crit on the end. You then plug those into the above formula. So it'd look like this on the crit build roughly, given the mods you provided. Doing the math for your build it's roughly a damage of 2416 without a crit, and 11,501 with a crit.

With Argon scope giving a boosted 38.5% chance to crit, and plugging everything in it looks like this:

((11,501 * 0.385) + (2,416 * 0.615) * 2) * 5.073 = Avg DPS of around 37.5k.  Just keep in mind this value isn't the expected DPS, which is slightly lower due to the actual crit chance not directly applying about every 3rd hit. It kind of does, but it's RNG.  So it can be higher or lower depending on luck.

That's 37.5k counting headshots and crit.. so where you got 80k I'll never know.  Granted, if you look at teh DPS if you were to only get headshots, it'd be something like 100k, but still that'd require 100% crit to reach

I will say I probably did mess up the calculation to the the average DPS, It might be different if both are done separately and then averaged or w/e. It's late, I probably shouldn't be doing math at this moment. xD

 

 

Oh yeah, forgot -vile

Fixed

God damn there are so many.

Non-crit damage is:

Base damage*(serration+hc-vile)+Base damage*((serration+hc-vile)*0.9*number of elemental)

Not

(Base Damage * ( Serration + HC - Vile) * ( Elemental (0.9) * amount))

If you add one single elemental on a dread using my formula then it'd be 150*(1)+150*(1*0.9*1)=285 damage which is correct while yours would be 150*(1*0.9*1)=135 which is wrong

So crit damage would be

(Base damage*(serration+hc-vile)+Base damage*((serration+hc-vile)*0.9*number of elemental))* crit multiplier

Not

(Base Damage * ( Serration + HC - Vile) * ( Elemental (0.9) * amount))  * Crit Multiplier

Edited February 28, 2016 by ClinkzEastwood