How to make Nezha as good as Rhino

[gluih]

I would say that Rhino is a good frame and at the same time his abilties are generally not used in an unhealthy way where he can CC a whole map or make the whole squad basically unkillable, so it makes a lot of sense to balance around that. The other reason to compare Nezha to Rhino is that 2 of their abilities are very similar. The first part of this post is going to be comparing the 2 frames and the second part is going to be about changes that would help nezha and some ideas for augments.

• One problem that both frames have is that they need a lot of energy, but they can't use rage while their defensive ability is active. On top of that Nezha can't use energy siphon and other energy sources while channeling Fire Walker.
• Nezha has lower defensive stats than Rhino, so he has to rely even more on Warding Halo and his mobility. Because of the problems with energy I don't really like using Quick Thinking on him either. Being more vulnerable also means that being locked in an animation is even more dangerous to him.
• Nezha does not have a damage buff for his teammates, which makes him potentially less useful in a lot of situations. He can make up for this with his healing and by having more CC.

 

1. Fire Walker
   This ability is fine overall. It can provide some nice CC and at least in lower-mid levels the damage is also really nice
   The problem I have with this ability is that I can only really use melee weapons and weapons like Sonicor when running around with it, because I can't really aim when running that fast. I would love to see an augment for this, that allows every ranged weapon to be used like the Sonicor, so it is possible to still shoot things while running around.
   Also as a sidenote- I often get stuck in doors (mainly in the void), while using this ability, because I slide into them while they open.
2. Blazing Chakram
   It would be great if there was either more range on this ability or if enemies were marked by it (if there a visual indicator already I usually can't see it), so it can be used better to heal teammates. With a clearly visible mark teammates could also react and kill the enemy to get the healing. I would prefer a higher range.
   An augment idea for this would be to give energy instead of health. Of course this shouldn't be trinity levels of energy, but it would make him a lot more useful to the team and even if it doesn't work while Fire Walker is active it would help a lot with the energ problems.
3. Warding Halo
   This has basically the same downsides as Rhinos Iron Skin without the Iron Shrapnel augment. I also don't know when exactly the invulnerability starts and as mentioned earlier Nezha is very vulnerable without it and being locked into animations hurts him a lot.
   This really needs an augment similar to Iron Shrapnel. One idea I had was to add an extra few seconds of being invulnerable at the end once the Halo is broken, instead of being able to reactivate it. This way it would be a little more different to Iron Skin and it would still help with the survivability. With the invulnerability at the end I would also make the Halo grow and deal damage in a bigger AoE, so the player can see that the Halo is about to end.
4. Divine Spears
   The animation at the end can be really annoying. I don't if this is there to make sure the players knows that the effect has ended, but I don't really like it.
   My augment idea for this one was to give it the Fire Walker augment instead of giving it to Fire Walker. This way Nezha would still be able to hit enemies fairly easy when running around, but he would have to cast Divine Spears to get the bonus and he would also help out his team.

With the exception of an energy generating Blazing Chakram this might not be what would push Nezha to be a top tier frame. When other frames can simply CC the whole map, make other almost invincible or give them more energy than they could ever use that's not necessarily what Nezha fits in really well. However I think with these changes and mainly an augment for Warding Halo he could still be a really good frame even in higher levels.

I am happy to read contructive feedback about my comparison between the 2 frames and would love to read your ideas how Nezhas abilities could be changed and what augments you want to see. And if you think my ideas are great I would of course also like to read about that:)

[RealPandemonium]

14 hours ago, gluih said:

I would say that Rhino is a good frame and at the same time his abilties are generally not used in an unhealthy way where he can CC a whole map or make the whole squad basically unkillable, so it makes a lot of sense to balance around that.

Lolwut?  I run Rhino in sorties because he can permaCC the map with Stomp chains.  I use him over Mirage because he has the added mobility of Charge, the safety/lazy factor of IS, and also buffs teammates' damage with Roar.  Rhino has always had strong permaCC potential but people fail to acknowledge this for some reason.

[(PSN)Crimson_Judgment]

Maybe Blazing Chakrams Heal Could Restore Warding Halo or add a Small invulnerability every time you heal?

[gluih]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

Lolwut?  I run Rhino in sorties because he can permaCC the map with Stomp chains.  I use him over Mirage because he has the added mobility of Charge, the safety/lazy factor of IS, and also buffs teammates' damage with Roar.  Rhino has always had strong permaCC potential but people fail to acknowledge this for some reason.

Iirc you have to time Rhino Stomp if you want to chain it which makes it less spammable. Sure you can still do that if you want to, but other frames are better at it. Also are enemies in the air actually affected by it?

There is also a lot of discussion going on about CC being to good in warframe. So I think it makes sense to focus on the rest of the abilities. Maybe I haven't seen enough Rhino Stomp perma CC, but both Nezha and Rhino can do well without it.

2 hours ago, (PS4)Crimson_Judgment said:

Maybe Blazing Chakrams Heal Could Restore Warding Halo or add a Small invulnerability every time you heal?

Restoring Warding Halo sounds great. It would still be less effective than Iron Shrapnel, but it would make the gameplay quite interesting.

Giving short invulnerability doesn't sound very practical. The big problem with Iron Shrapnel and Warding Halo is that they have to be removed before they can be cast again. For the invulnerability to bridge the gap it would have to be quite long to be practical and it would have to not affect the health on Warding Halo, so it could actually be broken and recast while it is active.

This brings up the idea: What if throwing Blazing Chakram removed Warding Halo. This way jumping then throwing it and recasting Warding Halo would allow to get the Halo back to full strength and still remain more or less save while in the air. If this was the case both abilities would have to be buffed tho, because it would force Nezha to run around without the Halo for short windows of time and it would restrict his use of the Chakram a lot.

[Autongnosis]

3 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Lolwut?  I run Rhino in sorties because he can permaCC the map with Stomp chains.  I use him over Mirage because he has the added mobility of Charge, the safety/lazy factor of IS, and also buffs teammates' damage with Roar.  Rhino has always had strong permaCC potential but people fail to acknowledge this for some reason.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Also, on topic, i fin Nezha extremely strong. Wading Halo is no joke, Firewalker is a very good mobility skill coupled with Nezha's innate reduced friction, and also offers rally nice CC if used right on top of giving access to a really good AoE Fire proc, Blazing Chakram offers a nice AoE heal and a good mobility option on top of localised AoE fire damage/proc through its combo with Firewalker, not to mention that Divine Spears is an eccelle CC abiity.

I find Nezha really strong and really fun to play, and the Little Prince holds his own even on third tier Sorties.

[----Fenrir----]

Nezha needs more than just a few small tweaks. Currently there is basically no reason to play him apart from maybe liking his theme and even less reason to have him in your team. He basically contributes next to nothing to a team. His 4th ability is mediocre CC at best and that is really all he has. He can run fast in circles, yet that is not really useful. And his healing ability has such short range that it is basically only a self-heal.

Nezha contributes nothing to a team, and sadly he isn't a great solo or running survivals frame either. Volt can go fast as well, but Volt can also make his whole team go fast. And Rhino is in a completely different league thanks to his team buff ability (Roar). That Rhino also is a better solo frame makes matters even worse for Nezha.

[phoenix1992]

Let's see what augments they will drop for Nezha, they may change the game play a lot.

[gluih]

45 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

Also, on topic, i fin Nezha extremely strong. Wading Halo is no joke, Firewalker is a very good mobility skill coupled with Nezha's innate reduced friction, and also offers rally nice CC if used right on top of giving access to a really good AoE Fire proc, Blazing Chakram offers a nice AoE heal and a good mobility option on top of localised AoE fire damage/proc through its combo with Firewalker, not to mention that Divine Spears is an eccelle CC abiity.

I find Nezha really strong and really fun to play, and the Little Prince holds his own even on third tier Sorties.

I'm not saying that Nezha is really bad, but I wouldn't call him extremely strong. Because if you call him extremely strong you have to compare him to 99% damage reduction and unlimited energy that trinity offers or AoE CC that makes every enemy on the map unable to do anything, unless he is in a Nullifier aura. That's not what Nezha does.

What holds him back are 2 factors. The healing AoE is very small, so it is not reliable when trying to heal others. Warding Halo and Iron Skin have the same problem. You can't recast it until it's gone. On Nezha this is a bigger problem than on Rhino, because Rhinos stats are higher. And then there is Iron Shrapnel, which makes Iron Skin a lot better.

And then there is the factor that it is really hard to aim while sliding around at high speed. Making aiming easier wouldn't necessarily make him a lot stronger, but it would fit his playstyle really well and make it even more fun. Also you can't get headshot while the enemies are on the spears, so making aiming easier for the whole team to compensate would be good imo.

[RealPandemonium]

5 hours ago, ----Fenrir---- said:

Nezha needs more than just a few small tweaks. Currently there is basically no reason to play him apart from maybe liking his theme and even less reason to have him in your team. He basically contributes next to nothing to a team. His 4th ability is mediocre CC at best and that is really all he has. He can run fast in circles, yet that is not really useful. And his healing ability has such short range that it is basically only a self-heal.

Nezha contributes nothing to a team, and sadly he isn't a great solo or running survivals frame either. Volt can go fast as well, but Volt can also make his whole team go fast. And Rhino is in a completely different league thanks to his team buff ability (Roar). That Rhino also is a better solo frame makes matters even worse for Nezha.

Ah, the beloved "contributes nothing to a team" claim which actually means "I can't exploit him for meta farming and easy wins."  

[----Fenrir----]

35 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Ah, the beloved "contributes nothing to a team" claim which actually means "I can't exploit him for meta farming and easy wins."  

Its not about meta-farming. This is a co-op game and some frames have abilities that support their teams while others do not really bring anything to the table. The frames that have support abilities are usually those people ask for in chat and that got played a lot. And the warframe reality is that of those frames either completely or at least mostly without useful support abilities the only ones that actually got played a fair amount are those that are great solo frames and good at running stuff like survivals.

Valkyr for example. Or Excal even thought thanks to RB Excal can kinda play support as well if needed. Poor Nezha has no supportive abilities, and apart from speed running stuff like capture missions, he really isn't a great solo frame either. He will probably end up as one of the least played frames.

[RealPandemonium]

DE doesn't need to tune their designs to what people ask for in trade chat, which is for exploit farming and unlosable missions.  The most popular frames will be the easiest to play or the most exploitable, always.  Alternative playstyles are the life-blood of Warframe, not the premade auto-win builds that people get from reddit and follow stubbornly without even knowing how they work.   DE should be encouraged to support alternate playstyles, and Nezha is an example of that.  Nezha is also splendid for solo play due to his natural speed, clutch mobility, self-heal, and potential for nukes or CC depending on how you build him.  Warframe isn't a hard game.  I cannot for the life of me understand why people insist on clinging to the easy way out in every circumstance and aggressively ask on the forums for more content that trivializes gameplay.  

Edited February 29, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[gluih]

2 hours ago, ----Fenrir---- said:

Its not about meta-farming. This is a co-op game and some frames have abilities that support their teams while others do not really bring anything to the table. The frames that have support abilities are usually those people ask for in chat and that got played a lot. And the warframe reality is that of those frames either completely or at least mostly without useful support abilities the only ones that actually got played a fair amount are those that are great solo frames and good at running stuff like survivals.

Valkyr for example. Or Excal even thought thanks to RB Excal can kinda play support as well if needed. Poor Nezha has no supportive abilities, and apart from speed running stuff like capture missions, he really isn't a great solo frame either. He will probably end up as one of the least played frames.

Claiming that Nezha doesn't have supportive abilities at all is just wrong.

OK the range on his heal is really small (which is why I brought it up in the OP), however he has CC in 3 of his 4 abilities. And while it is no press one button to make every enemy on the map unable to move ability, the CC he has is very useful.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

21 hours ago, ----Fenrir---- said:

Its not about meta-farming. This is a co-op game and some frames have abilities that support their teams while others do not really bring anything to the table. The frames that have support abilities are usually those people ask for in chat and that got played a lot. And the warframe reality is that of those frames either completely or at least mostly without useful support abilities the only ones that actually got played a fair amount are those that are great solo frames and good at running stuff like survivals.

Valkyr for example. Or Excal even thought thanks to RB Excal can kinda play support as well if needed. Poor Nezha has no supportive abilities, and apart from speed running stuff like capture missions, he really isn't a great solo frame either. He will probably end up as one of the least played frames.

I just can't agree with this comment.

 

There are very few Warframes that do not offer much for Team-play: Wukong (Tops my list...aside from Pick-ups he really only has a Short-Range AoE Finisher setup)

There are a lot of Builds used that are not Team Friendly.

(People can always play/mod selfishly)*

Valkyr can be played to be an unkillable CC team-player. (Prolonged Paralysis & WarCry with Large Range works well...no need for Defensive Mods ...since Hysteria will allow her to be unkillable while she CC's) (Just not the accpeted standard of playing with her)*

Nezha could use a slight tweak that would make him great, IMO. Allow Blazing Chakram to buff Armor per Enemy hit when Thrown. (Basically Ironclad Charge but innate on Blazing Chakram)

-This would allow Nezha to have decent self-protection especially when combined with his mobility and Divine Spears (AoE) 

It would be nice if Divine Spears had same base Range (19 v 25) as Rhino Stomp.

Same with AoE heal. I don't think Nezha would be OP with a 15m base heal.

Now if Divine Spears gets a Radiant Finish/Savage Silence Augment-like 300% Melee damage boost on affected enemies...that would assist Nezha being another flavor or Rhino

Basically exchanging Rhino's all Damage buff with Melee only Buff and Team-heal

Both have Mobility, self-protection, and AoE CC

 

On the note of Rhino needing to time Stomp*

-No more so than Nova with M-Prime

(Enemies currently effected do not get slowed again until effect wears off: Rhino can Stomp repeatedly though

Also Rhino surpasses the cap of 75% Enemy Slow that is imposed on Valkyr/Nova)*

Edit: Apparently Rhino Stomp allows Stealth Multiplier as enemies get so slowed they go into Unalerted Status: so he can buff melee with Roar plus Stomp.

Edited March 1, 2016 by (PS4)MrNishi

[J-Reyno]

I like a lot of your ideas.  I think Nezha could use a little help, I never feel like I'm bringing my best with him.  He's fun, but falls off in usefulness mainly because he cannot CC as reliably as other frames and his defensive power is non-scaling.  

Firewalker
My only issue with it is the energy cost, personally.  Base 5eps is not very worth the benefit imo and I think it could at least stand to match Ember's WoF for 3eps.  Minor note: the cost makes it practically unusable when first leveling the frame, which is a little odd since it's a first-slot power.

Blazing Chakram
Your energy restoration idea for Blazing Chakram is awesome, and the same about marked enemies being highly visible.  Give it a higher range on the pulse and I think that would make it worth using outside of the occasional teleport.  I'd honestly hope to see something like this as a base part of the power, with an augment that gives the pulse x4 or x5 range.

Warding Halo
I really like your idea of a few seconds of invulnerability once it is expelled.  Maybe it could pulse and knock down all enemies within 15-20 meters once it's destroyed?  

(Also, I personally dream of an augment that allows him to cast halo on allies at 75% health.  Make him a protector like he is described.  Would be especially wonderful if it had infinite range like Blessing and refreshes even if teammate halos haven't been destroyed.  With that, even if Nezha's halo can't be re-cast at will, it allows him to provide a small amount of protection anytime he casts his own halo.  Given the non-scaling nature of the power it would be helpful without being OP)

Divine Spears
I also hate the animation and I'd like one of two simple changes:

1. Remove the ending animation (and damage too if they want, idc about 600 damage =| ) and just allow the power to be re-cast at will, picking up any new enemies within range
2. Allow the power to be re-cast while active, immediately slamming any impaled enemies.  It can then be re-cast so that you can pick up new enemies

Second solution would probably be better since it seems they wanted Spears to be a bit different than most other CC.  It also justifies the higher base duration compared to Rhino's Stomp, for example, since Nezha could still only have once "instance" of Spears active. Whatever the case, it's very inconvenient when you've got a new swarm of enemies and that one random hidden enemy is still impaled under the stairway so you can't CC the new ones.

So yeah. I love Nezha's concept and design, easily one of my top 3 favorites.  I'd just like more motivation to use him outside of my solo syndicate runs (where I've even started using Loki more).

EDIT:  I learned tonight that you can activate the slam animation at will.  I feel like an idiot, lol, but I'm much happier with Divine Spears now!

Edited March 4, 2016 by J-Reyno