I think people are being a bit too harsh on Saryn

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

On 3/2/2016 at 5:51 AM, ClinkzEastwood said:

EV Trinity must be an incredibly unpopular frame.

EV Trinity IS an unpopular frame.  It's also a horrible build that should die in a fire, because it not only destroys all her other abilities, but it adds almost nothing to the EV ability itself. (since you can, you know, just burst down the enemy after EVing it and get the energy out even faster than crappy min duration EV builds)

That being said, Why on earth would I want to be Saryn adding 800% toxin damage to one teammate with a full power build that basically guarantees I can't cast my other abilites ever, when I can, instead, just play Banshee with like +60% power strength and not only get 800% damage for my entire team, but I myself can use it, I get excellent CC, I get excellent efficiency and can use my other abilities often, and I can pack Resonance and let my damage amp stack on itself and amplify damage to literal infinity for my entire team?

[-Temp0-]

4 hours ago, IamTheSparta said:

QQ, tell me which warframe can fight vs 1hitKO corrupted without naramon? valkyr, trinity blessing and the invisibles warframes, that's all

That's not what I meant. Considering how many people find all in the game "too ez", naramon will be nerfed to the ground sooner or later. And fun kinda will be over.

upd - also forgor wukong.

[akira_him]

Then:
Venom: useless, teammate kill the guy too fast without aiming the spore
Molt: meh, die too fast
Contagion: useless
Miasma: meh to decent <spam this forever
use of her: rush low level ext, Draco/Viver farm with 444444444444

now
Spores: decent <spam this forever
Molt: still meh, y u no frost globe treatment or invunlable for a few second b4 dying
Toxic lash: (still) useless unless you use naramon, which breaks the game with 2 mods with any frame
Miasma: depends (not synergize, we don't call this synergy) on Viral and toxic proc to be decent, but by the time you set it up you can die for few times, useless you are using naramon
use of her: debuff in latter-mid-game to earlier-end-game defense and survival (enemies are dense enough to sustain spore)
Draco farm with shooting the molt with toxic torid/concealed explosives and 11111111111 on it
melee with naramon

Saryn's ability depends one and other, and I am feeling this is a bad design
Although she can do more in a team setting, she can be, still, easily be swapped out with Nova, who can x2 to x8 times weapon damage in a safer range and provide CC in the same time with almost instant effect, and her abilities doesn't need another ability to work (maybe null star needs molecular prime, but it has stagger on its own)
Ember's ability all work on their own even in high level past 80s, because all of them can set enemies on fire and provide some kind of CC even the damage felt off

[akira_him]

5 hours ago, IamTheSparta said:

QQ, tell me which warframe can fight vs 1hitKO corrupted without naramon? valkyr, trinity blessing and the invisibles warframes, that's all

Also, you dont say anything on the damages, thx for giving me reason :)

Ash, Exca, Ivara, Equnoix, all finisher masterraces disapprove this post

3 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

EV Trinity IS an unpopular frame.  It's also a horrible build that should die in a fire, because it not only destroys all her other abilities, but it adds almost nothing to the EV ability itself. (since you can, you know, just burst down the enemy after EVing it and get the energy out even faster than crappy min duration EV builds)

That being said, Why on earth would I want to be Saryn adding 800% toxin damage to one teammate with a full power build that basically guarantees I can't cast my other abilites ever, when I can, instead, just play Banshee with like +60% power strength and not only get 800% damage for my entire team, but I myself can use it, I get excellent CC, I get excellent efficiency and can use my other abilities often, and I can pack Resonance and let my damage amp stack on itself and amplify damage to literal infinity for my entire team?

Vampire Leech actually turn EV build usable in higher level, but I guess I should just discuss default setting of a frame because many of the forums argues some augment should be part of the original ability, like regeneration molt

Edited April 1, 2016 by akira_him

[ClinkzEastwood]

5 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

EV Trinity IS an unpopular frame. 

Do you have anything to back this up or you're just pulling thing from whatever hole you have?

Also Banshee's CC requires the player to press a button then leave the computer to go to a field trip.

[DasHurz]

3 minutes ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

Do you have anything to back this up

Well might be the observation that it's always EVs that are being looked for when it comes to draco or LOR xD

[-Temp0-]

She's unpopular in a sense that no one wants to play it when it's needed. And yes, EV and bless are always needed. For other frames you basically don't have to ask. Next one is frost (especially for void defense) and other support frames, less so cc. And you'll never run out of damage-dealers.

[RealPandemonium]

The most popular frames are always the ones that can game the system the most, whether that's through expediting factory farming, having bandaids for enemy scaling, providing effective invulnerability, etc.  Many players, including several posters in this thread, only acknowledge frames that offer these things.  While Saryn works as a frame (with some issues like EHP nerf, Toxic Lash not spreading on killing blows, Molt unreliability, etc,) the hard-line "endgame" exploitation lobby will not  approve of her until she breaks the game in some way.  Some have speculated that Saryn is roughly balanced around what Damage 3.0 is supposed to be, rather than the current beyond-broken state of the game.  If Damage 3.0 comes around and exploitable frames are nerfed or made less desirable by changes to the game, Saryn's now-misaligned reputation may improve across the board.  

Edited April 1, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[SergeiTheBeast]

I have to disagree, Saryn after the "rework" went from being decent to completely useless. Being forced into using a set of skills in a certain rotation JUST to make her viable to about...what level 40? 50? does not make her good. She suffers extremely early from damage fall off not to mention survivability (without regenerative molt she's dead in no time at all) far sooner than any other frame. She takes too much work to any sort of decent damage. Now lets say you take her out of the damage category and put her into the debuff category  she doesn't do much there either because once again you need a range build to make her debuffs matter while keeping her alive and useful to the group. You shouldn't HAVE to play her ONE way for her to be effective, you shouldn't HAVE to mod her ONE way for her to be useable (Excal before his rework anyone?) It brings to mind an old saying my father taught me "Work smarter, not harder"  So am I saying pressing my buttons in a certain order is working harder rather than smarter? Yes, wanna know why? because other frames have Damage, utility and buffs all in one button press and when stuff like that is the norm, it makes frames like Saryn bad. Very bad. And it hurts me to say that, I love Saryn, she's my second favorite female frame. But once she hits 30 she's going on the shelf because she just doesn't stack up compared to the rest of my library of frames.

 

Also, this "git gud" mentality, that crap needs to go. This is Warframe, not Dark Souls. We work together, not competing against each other.

 

[RealPandemonium]

39 minutes ago, SergeiTheBeast said:

IAlso, this "git gud" mentality, that crap needs to go. This is Warframe, not Dark Souls. We work together, not competing against each other.

Unfortunately, coddling each other with exploitative powerspam only serves to make us weaker players.  The more modest our means, the better we become and the more interesting gameplay becomes.  

Of course, that doesn't mean nerf everything into utter uselessness, but the current situation is much too extreme to create interesting gameplay.  

Edited April 1, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[FeuerwehrautoDE]

2 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

the hard-line "endgame" exploitation lobby will not  approve of her until she breaks the game in some way

This is so true. When I play with my clan mates I can usually pick whatever and go afk, because they will just pick some kind of super-lame 2 frame combo that just exploits the game super hard and can stand in the middle of the room of a survival mission blowing everything up smashing a single button. There are a couple of frames that just trivialize the game and are beyond broken. Saryn is very balanced, just like a lot of the other frames that the community considers "trash tier" because they don't break the game.

It is not fun to press a single key to win, going 40+ minutes in a T4 survival mission is supposed to be a challenge, even with maxed out gear. I don't understand the babyrage about supposedly bad frames at all. Makes me think that most people here don't even care about gameplay and want to AFK through a mission to get easy item farm.

[RealPandemonium]

21 minutes ago, Karatevater said:

going 40+ minutes in a T4 survival mission is supposed to be a challenge, even with maxed out gear. 

Since the introduction of Sortie/Raid content where we fight enemies that start at level 100, 40 minutes of T4 is even considered casual by advocates of powercreep.  They want us to be able to do that in our sleep, and they've more or less succeeded.

[FeuerwehrautoDE]

I didn't play a raid yet, but even those lvl100 sorties are trivialized by those frames. We killed Vay Hek in less than 5 minutes yesterday by basically being AFK under a Frost globe and spamming a single broken combo. This is not what I consider fun.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Karatevater

[TychusMechanicus]

15 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

First off, Zenurik was never a requirement for frames, and they certainly aren't balanced around it, so why the hell should reworked frames be nerfed or weakened to balance them with zenurik to the level of other frames without zenurik?  Your zenurik-using argument, as well as anything involving arcane energize, is utterly illogical and impertinent to the discussion.

Bruh. Reading comprehension!

I wrote:  "Without triggering my Zenurik passive and my Corrosive Projection aura isn't an energy booster either." - extra highlight added for your reading pleasure.

Not once did I mention that I had to rely on those to remain in game.

The rest of my post is just defending Saryn and not giving a definitive ultimate description why she is the best frame ever this way. She is not a trash frame. 

• Needs a lot more player skill to stay alive and do well? Yes. 
• Could she use some buffs? Yes!

In a later post in this thread I actually played around with buff ideas.

I know it took you almost 6 weeks to come up with your reply but please read more carefully on what I meant.


Just to point out because I cannot leave it be:

Your math on her old ultimate is wrong.

1. You are correct about her total damage divided into procs of damage at 1s intervals for the duration of her ult.
2. You are also right that compressing the duration of her ult condensed the procs into less in number and high in damage. 

What you totally missed is this: if you went below 1s duration for her ultimate the damage started to rise up because of funky math with the ult while still having that single burst of damage.

I specifically playtested this: 

The lower duration I had, the higher damage I got. I used the arcane helmet as a point of comparison as a maxed Fleeting was enough to compress her ultimate into one single proc. You did more damage with the -5% duration helmet on than without.

Then they released Transient Fortitude and I was happier than ever before. 13k damage was with max Intensify, max Transient, Arcane Chlora helmet and max Fleeting Expertise. Blind Rage would've boosted that up to 24k but would've trashed your efficiency.

Edited April 1, 2016 by TychusMechanicus
Added thought.

[IamTheSparta]

12 hours ago, (PS4)aiptekfanboy said:

lets see loooooong duration freeze frost, looong duration stomp rhino, loooong duration blind mirage, then shoot or melee and when cc wears off follow up with sonicore cc blast ragdolls and rinse repeat till the hour or two hours are up or its time for food or to go take a break.

Oh, and saryn is supposed to be a hard CC warframe? she is a dps and debuff warframe, that's all.

All your warframes dont deal damage, ty :) (duration and range mirage doesnt.) bye.

[Djego27]

On 1.4.2016 at 10:29 AM, RealPandemonium said:

The most popular frames are always the ones that can game the system the most, whether that's through expediting factory farming, having bandaids for enemy scaling, providing effective invulnerability, etc.  Many players, including several posters in this thread, only acknowledge frames that offer these things.  While Saryn works as a frame (with some issues like EHP nerf, Toxic Lash not spreading on killing blows, Molt unreliability, etc,) the hard-line "endgame" exploitation lobby will not  approve of her until she breaks the game in some way.  Some have speculated that Saryn is roughly balanced around what Damage 3.0 is supposed to be, rather than the current beyond-broken state of the game.  If Damage 3.0 comes around and exploitable frames are nerfed or made less desirable by changes to the game, Saryn's now-misaligned reputation may improve across the board.  

I hope it is not since Saryns damage with specific weapons is just as broken as it gets in damage 2.0. It is just that outside of that it is rather meh, the frame does have actually big issues with single targets at high levels outside of melee and the lack of CC or molt survivability does not really make it that desirable to play outside Spore + Ignis/Hiku prime spam in a group.

20 hours ago, IamTheSparta said:

Oh, and saryn is supposed to be a hard CC warframe? she is a dps and debuff warframe, that's all.

All your warframes dont deal damage, ty :) (duration and range mirage doesnt.) bye.

Ember got ok CC and does good dps, Mag as well, Nova to, Mirage got very OP CC and even a range build(you don't need duration) for CC does very high dps if you use the right weapons and Eclipse.

I also like the argument about Saryn is fine because of Shadow Step.

[akira_him]

21 hours ago, IamTheSparta said:

Oh, and saryn is supposed to be a hard CC warframe? she is a dps and debuff warframe, that's all.

All your warframes dont deal damage, ty :) (duration and range mirage doesnt.) bye.

well another dps frame named ember got nice dps with decent(in fact is as good as radial blind) cc plus a x5 damage buff, and has space to mod for an augment to enchant teamates for fire damage so they could benefit from the x5 damage buff

meanwhile Saryn could enchant toxic on allies, but seeing how desperate she needs generative molt, I don't think she have a slot for venom dose,

unless shadowstep+bloodrush, r.i.p. build variety

[IRVoidGuru]

On February 29, 2016 at 6:22 AM, hanross said:

now he is joking , saryn was a master race before even she was better at 145% power strength to kill T3 enimies by just casting the skill and now at 212% strength enimies even can not stunned so her skills doesn't matter now cause she is now baby saryn , while diffrent play styles we don't have so much slots for put all mods on which saryn's power depends so there is no other thing to say about saryn : She is actually nerfed and so on saryn prime is junk junk and junk cause now it doen't matter she is prime or not she will never like she was before and now for god sake from now on please stop keep saying that DE reworked this cause We can actually replace the word rework with NERF in DE's dictionary and for examples list is : mesa rework(I hated de most for this) , mag rework , saryn rework , rework on synoid gammacore an.....d the list is still going on cause ash and mirage's topics(actually junk topic got replies 10 pages AMAZING!!!) are already on forum

the gamacore , saryn and mesa's peacemaker , wer all in massive need of the changes they got. the gamacore was more powerful then any primary at the time and could more then likly still beat them out how it was , peacemaker had a never ending aim bot that had no work put into killing , at least now u have to look at what your shooting ( somewhat ) mag got what the players gave her , players couldnt stop abusing Greedy pull , it got what it deserved , the mag rework for her skills is a better mag then has ever existed b4 , boohoo i cant ultimate corpus kill anymore , get over it she is easily 3x better, all of the things u say they nerfed was over powered and most players would agree it needed it 

Edited April 2, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33

[CandyDragon]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

peacemaker had a never ending aim bot that had no work put into killing

Implying that things like radial javeline, world on fire, sound quake, literally any press 4 aoe had any more work? If anything it was a slower TTK ult that got memed into being nerfed by forum posters who didn't understand why mesa worked.

The fact is, other frames, could, and still can, do what she did back then.  Same setups too, EV trin + RJ excal is 100% faster than mesa's effective TTK on higher scaled enemies. They knee jerked mesa into oblivion and its been an unfortunate series of events ever since.  Not to mention Mesa gained no energy from an EV trin till they stopped firing, your best bet was to bring a limbo to slow the energy decay by rifting them. 

Edited April 2, 2016 by Nariala

[IRVoidGuru]

22 minutes ago, Nariala said:

Implying that things like radial javeline, world on fire, sound quake, literally any press 4 aoe had any more work? If anything it was a slower TTK ult that got memed into being nerfed by forum posters who didn't understand why mesa worked.

The fact is, other frames, could, and still can, do what she did back then.  Same setups too, EV trin + RJ excal is 100% faster than mesa's effective TTK on higher scaled enemies. They knee jerked mesa into oblivion and its been an unfortunate series of events ever since.  Not to mention Mesa gained no energy from an EV trin till they stopped firing, your best bet was to bring a limbo to slow the energy decay by rifting them. 

all they did to mesa was make it to where u have to aim ! , is it so hard to look around? they did nothing wong to her , but it matters not for she is getting yet another buff that was kinda nessasary to be added , secondary mods !, with that being said this is about saryn not mesa if we wanna continue on that we should start a new topic      P.S i like how u said had , as in past tense  , javalin got nerfed , world on fire is soon to be looked at its only a matter of time , the devs are reworking no work skills to have activity to them , witch is why mesa got what she did , not cuz of what ever post u think  , it was to add activity , to remove lazyness! get used to it being lazy isnt fun , its simply lazy , and as for sound Quake ? what are u killing ? enemys at Egate? id continue but it could get insulting so ill end with saying , you obviously dont see the grand plan of lazyness removal  adding activity instead of calling it a nerf cuz u cant hold a button to win anymore

Edited April 2, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33

[IamTheSparta]

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

I hope it is not since Saryns damage with specific weapons is just as broken as it gets in damage 2.0. It is just that outside of that it is rather meh, the frame does have actually big issues with single targets at high levels outside of melee and the lack of CC or molt survivability does not really make it that desirable to play outside Spore + Ignis/Hiku prime spam in a group.

Ember got ok CC and does good dps, Mag as well, Nova to, Mirage got very OP CC and even a range build(you don't need duration) for CC does very high dps if you use the right weapons and Eclipse.

I also like the argument about Saryn is fine because of Shadow Step.

 

1 hour ago, akira_him said:

well another dps frame named ember got nice dps with decent(in fact is as good as radial blind) cc plus a x5 damage buff, and has space to mod for an augment to enchant teamates for fire damage so they could benefit from the x5 damage buff

meanwhile Saryn could enchant toxic on allies, but seeing how desperate she needs generative molt, I don't think she have a slot for venom dose,

unless shadowstep+bloodrush, r.i.p. build variety

Ember nice dps in endgame? Mag nice dps in endgame versus an other faction than corpus? let me laugh please

Am i talking only with begginers who play on Draco or what?

Yeah excal and mirage have CC, but they dont have -50% hp on the map, it's called: variety

[akira_him]

12 minutes ago, IamTheSparta said:

 

Ember nice dps in endgame? Mag nice dps in endgame versus an other faction than corpus? let me laugh please

Am i talking only with begginers who play on Draco or what?

Yeah excal and mirage have CC, but they dont have -50% hp on the map, it's called: variety

Build variety here means the way to play a warframe with different combination of weapons, if I am not clear I apologise

All other frames mentioned doesn't depend on weapon to be variable, they can use basically anything they want
Saryn however, only works with conceal explosives, torid, gas ignis (basically AoE weapons), which pops spores spotaniuously, or shadowstep
If you use other weapons, you can do it better with other frames mentioned

No other frames here depends shadowstep to work, they are free to choose other focus, but Saryn depends on the survivaiblity provided by it

[IRVoidGuru]

3 minutes ago, akira_him said:

Build variety here means the way to play a warframe with different combination of weapons, if I am not clear I apologise

All other frames mentioned doesn't depend on weapon to be variable, they can use basically anything they want
Saryn however, only works with conceal explosives, torid, gas ignis (basically AoE weapons), which pops spores spotaniuously, or shadowstep
If you use other weapons, you can do it better with other frames mentioned

No other frames here depends shadowstep to work, they are free to choose other focus, but Saryn depends on the survivaiblity provided by it

no other frame here can cover an entire battle field in viral and toxic procs and do so Quickly along with adding corrosive damage , she is perfectly fine as is ppl just havent found the best way to use her 

[Djego27]

41 minutes ago, IamTheSparta said:

 

Ember nice dps in endgame? Mag nice dps in endgame versus an other faction than corpus? let me laugh please

Am i talking only with begginers who play on Draco or what?

Yeah excal and mirage have CC, but they dont have -50% hp on the map, it's called: variety

Ofc I talk about drako. Everybody should know that Ember is very low dps and totally can not do 370k red crits solo with a rakta cernos(you will need arcane rage, at least 200% power strength, madurai focus, a primed bane mod and argon scope), 100k+ single shot with a vaykor hek(up to 25k head shot crits single pellet) or in the pre U17 days 1M+ effective dps with status shotguns like the boar prime in solo runs. Ember is quite solid on the dps side of things at high levels, given specific modding and using the right weapons. People just have to realize that it is not a high dps AOE press 4 nuke at high level but mostly gets stuff done with boosted weapon damage.

Mag actually can scale fairly well beyond L200 with a BA build and explosive weapons like the tonkor outside of corpus, but yeah the main use for the frame is corpus where it does scale better then other dps frames at high levels.

While AOE viral is a good team buff, you make it out as viral is a exclusive effect to Saryn and not something that actually makes sense to bring on a secondary weapon to apply at high levels with just about any kind of frame. Overall Saryn is like totally AOE dps focused(I am not really that big fan of that to be honest) what is fine as distinctive feature, the lack of CC however is not really and it is definitive something I don't like at all, being it for soloing the 3 more waves to 4 on drako after everybody else left, a hour in the void or any kind of other high level stuff without 100% full CC all the time provided by other frames. Just take Saryn without shadow step into void survival and it becomes extreme obvious that there is something missing that gives players the tools to prevent instant death at high levels reasonable well, same as it is present on nearly every other frame with similar uses.

 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2016 by Djego27

[IamTheSparta]

6 minutes ago, akira_him said:

Build variety here means the way to play a warframe with different combination of weapons, if I am not clear I apologise

All other frames mentioned doesn't depend on weapon to be variable, they can use basically anything they want
Saryn however, only works with conceal explosives, torid, gas ignis (basically AoE weapons), which pops spores spotaniuously, or shadowstep
If you use other weapons, you can do it better with other frames mentioned

No other frames here depends shadowstep to work, they are free to choose other focus, but Saryn depends on the survivaiblity provided by it

I really think that each warframe should not be able to play with ALL the possible loadout with the same efficiency, exactly like in each PvE game with different classes.

But you are right, maybe a LITTLE bit more variety should be possible, but eh, this is still a beta i guess