Sniper Crit chance

[Kinetos]

Simply, the role of the sniper rifles should be, see that one enemy over there? Click. It's dead. Sniper rework didn't help this much except for Lanka with its crit chance scope allowing it to reach 100% crit chance and reliably headcrit. The other snipers can't match this and are stuck with the same crit chances of DMR type rifles. 

 

Here are some ideas, ordered in order of ascending complexity. 

1
Double the base crit chance of every sniper rifle so they are around 40 and 50% base crit chance.

2
Bows are affected doubly by fire rate mods, how about snipers are doubly affected by crit chance mods

3
Make a mod for snipers where headshots with snipers are 100% lethal, like Covert Lethality does for dagger finishers. 

4
Remove crit chance as a stat, change crit chance mods to scope stabilization mods and recoil mods, call crit damage weakpoint damage and apply it to all headshots and other weakpoint shots. 

 

 

 

I don't really have a problem with the maximum possible damage snipers can deal right now, the problem is the RNG required to get that damage.

With a sniper, Skill should equal Kill, and it should be effective on the first shot, not having to chain shots, or RNG to decide whether kill.

If more damage is required, you could just buff the damage. done.

what's better is for RNG to go away, and adding to crit multiplier does nothing to address RNG.

Edited March 3, 2016 by KinetosImpetus

[SolidJames]

1 minute ago, KinetosImpetus said:

how about snipers are doubly affected by crit chance mods

I really like this idea. More mods affecting different weapons in their own ways.

[ChaoticVice777]

Just now, KinetosImpetus said:

Simply, the role of the sniper rifles should be, see that one enemy over there? Click. It's dead. Sniper rework didn't help this much except for Lanka with its crit chance scope allowing it to reach 100% crit chance and reliably headcrit. The other snipers can't match this and are stuck with the same crit chances of DMR type rifles. 

 

Here are some ideas, ordered in order of ascending complexity. 

1

Double the base crit chance of every sniper rifle so they are around 40 and 50% base crit chance.

2

Bows are affected doubly by fire rate mods, how about snipers are doubly affected by crit chance mods

3

Make a mod for snipers where headshots with snipers are 100% lethal, like Covert Lethality does for dagger finishers. 

4

Remove crit chance as a stat, change crit chance mods to scope stabilization mods and recoil mods, call crit damage weakpoint damage and apply it to all headshots and other weakpoint shots. 

1) Wouldn't work without some other modifications, as doubling the base critical chance means that we're going to have to deal with red crits.

2) That would be interesting, but I'm pretty sure there are still some snipers that won't reach the 100% critical chance rate. Plus, once again, red crits.

3) Unfortunately, this sort of mod would be generally overpowered, as it would scale endlessly, and favors more "spammy" snipers. Alternatively, if it isn't overpowered, then you'd have to deal with not putting on damage in favor of the aforementioned mod. Essentially, this mod just serves as a band-aid...just like Covert Lethality.

4) This involves changing the entire damage system, and that won't be happening with the upcoming "Damage 3.0". But hey, not trying to be a downer here.

[Kinetos]

What's wrong with red crits? 

Also, i agree with your assessment of 3 and 4, and that's why 4 is at the bottom. 

Edited March 3, 2016 by KinetosImpetus

[Sonicbullitt]

8 minutes ago, KinetosImpetus said:

Simply, the role of the sniper rifles should be, see that one enemy over there? Click. It's dead. Sniper rework didn't help this much except for Lanka with its crit chance scope allowing it to reach 100% crit chance and reliably headcrit. The other snipers can't match this and are stuck with the same crit chances of DMR type rifles. 

 

Here are some ideas, ordered in order of ascending complexity. 

1

Double the base crit chance of every sniper rifle so they are around 40 and 50% base crit chance.

2

Bows are affected doubly by fire rate mods, how about snipers are doubly affected by crit chance mods

3

Make a mod for snipers where headshots with snipers are 100% lethal, like Covert Lethality does for dagger finishers. 

4

Remove crit chance as a stat, change crit chance mods to scope stabilization mods and recoil mods, call crit damage weakpoint damage and apply it to all headshots and other weakpoint shots. 

everyone only thinks about crit chance people forget about crit multi , what snipers need is the highest crit multi in game not  more crit chance. The soma has a higher crit multi for F*** sakes wtf ?

[ChaoticVice777]

3 minutes ago, KinetosImpetus said:

What's wrong with red crits? 

Also, i agree with your assessment of 3 and 4, and that's why 4 is at the bottom. 

Essentially, once you get past 100% critical, you now enter the territory of how much excess critical chance is left to red crit, the equivalent of a critical of a critical hit. In other words, it's like having to deal with the similar problem twice-over.

[Kinetos]

Just now, Sonicbullitt said:

everyone only thinks about crit chance people forget about crit multi , what snipers need is the highest crit multi in game not  more crit chance. The soma has a higher crit multi for F*** sakes wtf ?

Headcrits. 

No, I really think chance is where the biggest problem lies. Snipers should be a skill weapon. Getting that headshot with a properly modded Rifle should kill, but if it doesn't crit, even a headshot does nearly nothing at high level. 

[SolidJames]

1 minute ago, Sonicbullitt said:

everyone only thinks about crit chance people forget about crit multi , what snipers need is the highest crit multi in game not  more crit chance. The soma has a higher crit multi for F*** sakes wtf ?

Crit multipliers are fine but only work if you crit in the first place. High multiplier with low chance is just frustrating. Shoot 5 times doing little, shoot a sixth time and oneshot. No thank you. Consistency is better.

[Sonicbullitt]

Just now, KinetosImpetus said:

Headcrits. 

No, I really think chance is where the biggest problem lies. Snipers should be a skill weapon. Getting that headshot with a properly modded Rifle should kill, but if it doesn't crit, even a headshot does nearly nothing at high level. 

giving them high crit rate just makes them hitscan bows, snipers should have a multiplier only for them for headshots but the multi should be buffed too.

[Kinetos]

Bows have innate punch through, ragdoll, variable fire rate, no scope sway, and no movement penalty.

[(PSN)xKAIOWAx]

Snipers have a long way to be top weapons , after this news improvements , just becomes acceptables 

[Nachino]

Just now, Sonicbullitt said:

everyone only thinks about crit chance people forget about crit multi , what snipers need is the highest crit multi in game not  more crit chance. The soma has a higher crit multi for F*** sakes wtf ?

But the Soma has 10 physical damage (15 on Soma Prime).

[dandin3]

haa.. well sniper its not a CC weapon . and cant use as bow with easy trick shot, so any damge buff its welcom. 

so idk what of the 4 idea its most welcom. but any of them will make me use sniper rifle

 

[Sonicbullitt]

8 minutes ago, Nachino said:

But the Soma has 10 physical damage (15 on Soma Prime).

doesn't change the fact that an assault rifle has higher crit damage than a sniper rifle , which makes no god damn sense.

[Kinetos]

1 minute ago, Sonicbullitt said:

doesn't change the fact that an assault rifle has higher crit damage than a sniper rifle , which makes no god damn sense.

Multiplier by itself doesn't mean anything. 2 x 50 and 25 x 4 both equal 100. In Soma case, it would do more dps with a smaller multiplier and a proportionately higher base, crits wouldn't change how much damage they do, but non crits would do more. 

[Sonicbullitt]

4 minutes ago, KinetosImpetus said:

Multiplier by itself doesn't mean anything. 2 x 50 and 25 x 4 both equal 100. In Soma case, it would do more dps with a smaller multiplier and a proportionately higher base, crits wouldn't change how much damage they do, but non crits would do more. 

I am not talking about the damage or dps, cause we know high crit multi without high damage doesn't change anything . I am talking about the logic behind it, even though sniper rifles easily do more damage per shot than a soma , it still has a higher crit multi which makes, no god damn sense. By logic snipers should have the highest crit multi out of all weapons, but in warframe nothing makes sense.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Sonicbullitt

[Nachino]

Just now, Sonicbullitt said:

doesn't change the fact that an assault rifle has higher crit damage than a sniper rifle , which makes no god damn sense.

It's a weapon based around crit chance and damage, there's no other way to play it really, while you can mod most snipers with criticals or pure damage mods and they are still better than a Soma.

Just now, Sonicbullitt said:

I am not talking about the damage or dps, cause we know high crit multi without high damage doesn't change anything . I am talking about the logic behind it, even though sniper rifles easily do more damage per shot than a soma , it still has a higher crit multi which makes, no god damn sense. By logic snipers should have the highest crit multi out of all weapons, but in warframe nothing makes sense.

They are criticals, they don't make sense in any weapon if you are looking for logic and they don't make sense in any other game either.

Criticals in this game do not work like in other games and they don't have to.

If i'm wrong, please explain what's the logic behind snipers being crit weapons but not other weapons.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Nachino

[Kinetos]

6 minutes ago, Sonicbullitt said:

I am not talking about the damage or dps, cause we know high crit multi without high damage doesn't change anything . I am talking about the logic behind it, even though sniper rifles easily do more damage per shot than a soma , it still has a higher crit multi which makes, no god damn sense. By logic snipers should have the highest crit multi out of all weapons, but in warframe nothing makes sense.

But a high crit multiple without a high crit chance doesn't fix the problem of unreliable damage. I don't have any problem with the damage snipers do as long as you headshot (skill) and RNG decides not to {©<{€©÷><\ with you 

[TheLexiConArtist]

11 minutes ago, KinetosImpetus said:

Multiplier by itself doesn't mean anything. 2 x 50 and 25 x 4 both equal 100. In Soma case, it would do more dps with a smaller multiplier and a proportionately higher base, crits wouldn't change how much damage they do, but non crits would do more. 

Wrong. Crits amplify all other damage mods, so by the time you've slotted Point Strike and Vital Sense, those two allow the remaining 6 mods to act as if they were 9 mods or more.

Take the Soma Prime vs. the Boltor Prime, both top in their class of rifle rifles for DPS. With 7 mods and Ammo Mutation, Soma Prime can outdamage the Boltor Prime on body-shots.

 

That's also not taking into account how Crit Headshots double the crit multiplier again, at which point the Soma Prime is now more than doubling the DPS of the Boltor...

[Nachino]

Just now, EDYinnit said:

Take the Soma Prime vs. the Boltor Prime, both top in their class of rifle rifles for DPS. With 7 mods and Ammo Mutation, Soma Prime can outdamage the Boltor Prime on body-shots.

Where did you get that from? Boltor Prime deals more damage than Soma Prime on body-shots and has more dps, i've never seen anyone argue about this.

[Kinetos]

45 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Wrong. Crits amplify all other damage mods, so by the time you've slotted Point Strike and Vital Sense, those two allow the remaining 6 mods to act as if they were 9 mods or more.

Take the Soma Prime vs. the Boltor Prime, both top in their class of rifle rifles for DPS. With 7 mods and Ammo Mutation, Soma Prime can outdamage the Boltor Prime on body-shots.

 

That's also not taking into account how Crit Headshots double the crit multiplier again, at which point the Soma Prime is now more than doubling the DPS of the Boltor...

Crits amplify all other damage, but if that damage is 2, and crit mult is 10, on a crit, that makes no difference if the same exact hit location is hit by something with 10 base damage and a multiplier of 2. the headcrit multiplier applies to all the damage, not the multiplier alone.

 

The problem isn't the damage cap, it's the RNG wall to hitting the damage cap reliably enough.

Edited March 3, 2016 by KinetosImpetus

[Kinetos]

2 hours ago, ChaoticVice777 said:

Essentially, once you get past 100% critical, you now enter the territory of how much excess critical chance is left to red crit, the equivalent of a critical of a critical hit. In other words, it's like having to deal with the similar problem twice-over.

But the yellow crit will still headcrit, so it's not as bad as a white hit comparitively.

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, Nachino said:

Where did you get that from? Boltor Prime deals more damage than Soma Prime on body-shots and has more dps, i've never seen anyone argue about this.

I'm not pretending these are necessarily optimal builds, but here:

Soma Prime with [Serration + Point Strike + Vital Sense + Split Chamber + 2 * 90% Element Mod + HeavyCal (+ Ammo Mutation)]

7 damage mods

Burst DPS: ~16432; Sustained DPS (including reloads): ~13414

Boltor Prime with [Serration + Split Chamber + 4 * 90% Elemental Mod + Piercing Caliber + Heavy Caliber]

8 damage mods

Burst DPS: ~16946; Sustained DPS: ~12104

 

Calculation is:

[damage] + ([crit chance] * ([damage] * ([crit multiplier] - 1)))  = Average damage per shot

[Avg/shot] * [fire rate] = Burst Dps

[burst dps] * (([mag cap] / [fire rate]) / (([mag cap] / [fire rate]) + [reload time]))) = Sustained DPS

 

I'm pretty sure that squirrely 'reload downtime' calculation is right, but please do correct me if it's off. Time to empty mag, divided by the time to empty a mag and reload, is the downtime multiplier for sustained dps.

1 hour ago, KinetosImpetus said:

Crits amplify all other damage, but if that damage is 2, and crit mult is 10, on a crit, that makes no difference if the same exact hit location is hit by something with 10 base damage and a multiplier of 2. the headcrit multiplier applies to all the damage, not the multiplier alone.

Naked yes. Mods change this entirely, because they all benefit from the crit modifier you've improved. At 100% crit chance with a 2x multiplier, your mods are exactly twice as powerful. Serration is worth 330% instead of 165%.

 

Also, a headcrit doubles the damage and the critical multiplier. A 2x crit multiplier does 2*(2*2) = 8x damage on a headshot.

See here:

Unmodded Tonkor deals 650 on an autoheadshot enemy with a 35% chance of dealing an additional 2600 (+150% for crit, *2 for crit headshot).

damage * 2 * (2.5*2) = 325 * 2 * 5 = 325 * 10 = 3250

Edited March 3, 2016 by EDYinnit

[Nachino]

Just now, EDYinnit said:

I'm not pretending these are necessarily optimal builds, but here:

Soma Prime with [Serration + Point Strike + Vital Sense + Split Chamber + 2 * 90% Element Mod + HeavyCal (+ Ammo Mutation)]

7 damage mods

Burst DPS: ~16432; Sustained DPS (including reloads): ~13414

Boltor Prime with [Serration + Split Chamber + 4 * 90% Elemental Mod + Piercing Caliber + Heavy Caliber]

8 damage mods

Burst DPS: ~16946; Sustained DPS: ~12104

You would get more dps with Serration + Split Chamber + 2 * 90% Elemental Mods + Piercing Caliber + Heavy Caliber + Vile Acceleration + (Primed) Bane of "Faction" OR Serration + Split Chamber + 3 * 90% Elemental Mods + Piercing Caliber + Heavy Caliber + Vile Acceleration.

[Kinetos]

50 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

I'm not pretending these are necessarily optimal builds, but here:

Soma Prime with [Serration + Point Strike + Vital Sense + Split Chamber + 2 * 90% Element Mod + HeavyCal (+ Ammo Mutation)]

7 damage mods

Burst DPS: ~16432; Sustained DPS (including reloads): ~13414

Boltor Prime with [Serration + Split Chamber + 4 * 90% Elemental Mod + Piercing Caliber + Heavy Caliber]

8 damage mods

Burst DPS: ~16946; Sustained DPS: ~12104

 

Calculation is:

[damage] + ([crit chance] * ([damage] * ([crit multiplier] - 1)))  = Average damage per shot

[Avg/shot] * [fire rate] = Burst Dps

[burst dps] * (([mag cap] / [fire rate]) / (([mag cap] / [fire rate]) + [reload time]))) = Sustained DPS

 

I'm pretty sure that squirrely 'reload downtime' calculation is right, but please do correct me if it's off. Time to empty mag, divided by the time to empty a mag and reload, is the downtime multiplier for sustained dps.

Naked yes. Mods change this entirely, because they all benefit from the crit modifier you've improved. At 100% crit chance with a 2x multiplier, your mods are exactly twice as powerful. Serration is worth 330% instead of 165%.

 

Also, a headcrit doubles the damage and the critical multiplier. A 2x crit multiplier does 2*(2*2) = 8x damage on a headshot.

See here:

Unmodded Tonkor deals 650 on an autoheadshot enemy with a 35% chance of dealing an additional 2600 (+150% for crit, *2 for crit headshot).

damage * 2 * (2.5*2) = 325 * 2 * 5 = 325 * 10 = 3250

2x(2x2), (2x2)x2, what's the difference. it's all still 2x2=4, 4x2=8

 

And again, top damage is fine, it's consistency that is the problem I want to correct.

Edited March 3, 2016 by KinetosImpetus