Changes to melee in Conclave post 18.5

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

You take out mobility you kill the game. Sword alone will not and will never work on this game.

This is compromising the spirit of the game for one playstyle its like balancing pve around draco

[Suska]

If you've taken any hits - doesn't matter the frame - you can't double down and go aggro with melee - you will be shot and killed. Before 18.5 you could do that with a reasonable chance of success and it was very satisfying to walk away from such an encounter, having risked everything. Stagger made that possible. The viable tactics now are limited to the passive aggressive. So the question is, If you can't be bold in PvP what's the point? 

[Nazrethim]

5 hours ago, Eureka.seveN said:

You take out mobility you kill the game. Sword alone will not and will never work on this game.

This is compromising the spirit of the game for one playstyle its like balancing pve around draco

So compromising the spirit of the game (gun and blade) to encourage one playstyle (gunplay) is okay for you? Balance doesn't mean "everyone is happy", balance means "Rock loses to Paper, Paper to Scissors, Scissors to Rock". Sword Alone should be reworked into something useful instead of mobility (which you may notice by now it's nearly useless to an animation locked melee) like high defense (30% damage reduction, tell me any balanced game where a melee player has the same ehp as a ranged player) or simply speeding up animations to DMC3 levels and adding the other sh*t we mentioned earlier in the thread.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

11 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

So compromising the spirit of the game (gun and blade) to encourage one playstyle (gunplay) is okay for you? Balance doesn't mean "everyone is happy", balance means "Rock loses to Paper, Paper to Scissors, Scissors to Rock". Sword Alone should be reworked into something useful instead of mobility (which you may notice by now it's nearly useless to an animation locked melee) like high defense (30% damage reduction, tell me any balanced game where a melee player has the same ehp as a ranged player) or simply speeding up animations to DMC3 levels and adding the other sh*t we mentioned earlier in the thread.

Why would DE waste ressources to completely re-invent the melee system jsut for PvP? What you are asking for is unrealistic. And balancing melee since u16 has been un-sucessful.

Thus, its clear that in this current situation sword alone does not work with the flow of the game. And thus should be used to compliment the class not be the sole factor in the class.

[Nazrethim]

1 minute ago, Eureka.seveN said:

Why would DE waste ressources to completely re-invent the melee system jsut for PvP? What you are asking for is unrealistic. And balancing melee since u16 has been un-sucessful.

Thus, its clear that in this current situation sword alone does not work with the flow of the game. And thus should be used to compliment the class not be the sole factor in the class.

Revamping melee could be done for both PvE and PvP. And let's be honest here, DE has been more concerned with adding more stuff to Conclave than improving the ever decaying melee system, their go-to solution of bandaid mods has it's limits. Here we have proposed mechanics that are or were already on the game with a new purpose to avoid the "revamp melee from scratch" option and those aren't bad ideas either, the main opposition are gunplayers who don't want to lose their supremacy, balance be damned.

Also, what if, hypothetically, DE decides randomly that they want to revamp loadouts to allow  all-gun or all-melee builds?

[Nighttide77]

Just another 2-cents: I don't think a full revamp is needed to make melee better.  Just tweaks.

To consider, if equipped melee did have a mobility debuff on hitting a target, it would pretty much be the same as staggers, in that staggers immobilized the target.  In this way, immobilized jumpers would basically die to melee the moment they get debuffed, unless they got some lucky shotgun blast in or something (which wasn't much different from staggers).  At the same time, the debuff would be applied to every melee attack, and so players would naturally veer towards using attacks that would make executing the debuff even easier...which would potentially be slide attacks on most weapons.

We'd be back at square 1.

A stamina system could work if equipped melee had better stamina efficiency than guns.  However, that could take forever and a half to see come out.  I'm pretty sure the current focus is on Damage 3.0 and the Star Chart rework, too.

In the current system, all we'd need are better aerial melee animations (however that may be implemented), movement impairments removed from melee attack animations, and increased standard movement while using equipped melee (such that a player would be able to stay on top of a target that dodge rolls or bullet jumps).  To a large extent, PvE melee would benefit from these changes, too.

Imagine being able to effectively move forward while attacking with a heavy weapon.  You'd actually be able to hit players on the second swing!  The downside would be that the attacks are slow, which leaves you open for longer periods of time, which seems like a decent drawback to having heavy damage.

Edited March 6, 2016 by -cS-Nighttide77

[Forizenajay]

Sad that even founders realize how much of a failure it is.

 

I guess no game can realistically make something like this viable

[Suska]

Being a founder doesn't give you any special insight.

You only need to ask yourself what success would look like. As I see it DE understands what we're asking for, but it's very complicated - tell them what you like and don't like and let them sort it out.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Suska
spelling

[Forizenajay]

2 hours ago, Suska said:

Being a founder doesn't give you any special insight.

You only need to ask yourself what success would look like. As I see it DE understands what we're asking for, but it's very complicated - tell them what you like and don't like and let them sort it out.

It seems only a finger full of people want melee to be a thing. The problem is no one will agree, they just want guns to reign supreme and never have to deal with "Jedi". 

 

The sad fact also is that majority wins, it's quantity over quality when it comes to feedback.

 

People can't fathom that doing sword alone is like fighting osprey that can bullet jump and are equipped with machine guns. 

[Nazrethim]

45 minutes ago, -FV-Forizen said:

It seems only a finger full of people want melee to be a thing. The problem is no one will agree, they just want guns to reign supreme and never have to deal with "Jedi". 

 

The sad fact also is that majority wins, it's quantity over quality when it comes to feedback.

 

People can't fathom that doing sword alone is like fighting osprey that can bullet jump and are equipped with machine guns. 

Yeah, it's forum metagame, people underplay guns and say melee is op despite the reality being oposite just to keep their unbalanced status quo, which goes against the "fair play" intention of Conclave 2.0

[Nighttide77]

10 hours ago, -FV-Forizen said:

Sad that even founders realize how much of a failure it is.

I guess no game can realistically make something like this viable

Unreal Championship 2.  Look it up.  Made melee viable in an FPS.  The changes I suggest are heavily influenced by the system in that game.

[Suska]

I think it has always been DE's intention to balance tactics

[-InV-igo95862]

Not sure if it was intentional...

Edited March 10, 2016 by -cS-igo95862-ICE-

[Forizenajay]

2 hours ago, -cS-igo95862-ICE- said:

Not sure if it was intentional...

This isn't conclave though right? It's pve?

 

I'm going to host a Sword Alone tourney next week. 

[Burnthesteak87]

Stamina and partial limitation to the exaggerate mobility is the solution. Then Melee will have its place in the fight.

[Nazrethim]

17 minutes ago, -FV-Forizen said:

This isn't conclave though right? It's pve?

 

I'm going to host a Sword Alone tourney next week. 

I think the text works for both anyway for many tenno.

PM the details (day, timezone and rules) will ya? :D

[rockscl]

hahaha that tactical alert is so fkin ironic hahaha

[MattHarrigan]

On 3/4/2016 at 11:38 PM, -cS-Nighttide77 said:

....if melee had better aerial potential...

They nerfed the glorious air attack once which I still cant understand. The coolest move and also pretty hard to land, super bad damage now... 

I think stagger upon every spin-attack while melee was equipped was bad for the game. It made the actual aim pretty unrewarding, and inviting 'melee heroes' spamming melee button to waste everyone with Loki/Skana. Don't get me wrong I think melee could be buffed in some ways, especially in aereal strikes, but I don't miss the stagger.

[Forizenajay]

49 minutes ago, Lenzoid said:

They nerfed the glorious air attack once which I still cant understand. The coolest move and also pretty hard to land, super bad damage now... 

I think stagger upon every spin-attack while melee was equipped was bad for the game. It made the actual aim pretty unrewarding, and inviting 'melee heroes' spamming melee button to waste everyone with Loki/Skana. Don't get me wrong I think melee could be buffed in some ways, especially in aereal strikes, but I don't miss the stagger.

I think the stagger was double nerfed, cause not only was it removed but they also added/made sure that stagger could not be repeated for 4 whole seconds.

So you'd get one stagger in the spin attack instead of the toxic spin attack 

[Zerga-08]

2 hours ago, Burnthesteak87 said:

Stamina and partial limitation to the exaggerate mobility is the solution. Then Melee will have its place in the fight.

First of all, melee will actually get worse if you limit mobility because to many people's surprise, melee also need mobility.

Secondly, this is a huge no, speed is fine where it is right now, it doesn't need to be slowed down further.

[Burnthesteak87]

1 minute ago, Zerga-08 said:

First of all, melee will actually get worse if you limit mobility because to many people's surprise, melee also need mobility.

Secondly, this is a huge no, speed is fine where it is right now, it doesn't need to be slowed down further.

Nobody said the game has to be slowed or the mobility reduced.
There must be a limitation to extreme mobility thus creating Windows of Opportunity. When a player can't escape cause no Stamina, melee only players will have a chance at doing their move.
What you wrote is just an extpansion from your wrong interpretation.

[rockscl]

my point of view hasnt changed, air melee and ground melee should be fully directional, the engine needs to spin the torso accordingly to the mouse`s direction, it needs to actually handle more analogic input accordingly to what is going on, in the air, tapping E should make a quick stab/jab/frontal attack in the direction of the mouse with a cool down of 0.3-1 seconds accordingly to weapon class, holding E should swing towards that direction, and the swinged weapon should be kept in place as long as E is holded down meaning you are now able to hit some one that went  out of your frontal cone, and under or above your Y axis

slam attacks could be done with double E tap downwards, and over all of that, aerial sword alone CC should be considered even if it comes with mods+tradeoffs, i cant understand why that hasnt happened yet

in resume whatever happens to melee needs to be in the direction of removing animation control over player input, thats is how parkour2 raised the verticality of the matches, scrapped key framed movements in favor of analogic control, but melee stood in the past

Edited March 11, 2016 by rockscl

[Lordricker]

On 3/8/2016 at 7:42 PM, -FV-Forizen said:

It seems only a finger full of people want melee to be a thing. The problem is no one will agree, they just want guns to reign supreme and never have to deal with "Jedi". 

 

The sad fact also is that majority wins, it's quantity over quality when it comes to feedback.

 

People can't fathom that doing sword alone is like fighting osprey that can bullet jump and are equipped with machine guns. 

 

On 3/8/2016 at 8:29 PM, Nazrethim said:

Yeah, it's forum metagame, people underplay guns and say melee is op despite the reality being oposite just to keep their unbalanced status quo, which goes against the "fair play" intention of Conclave 2.0

You guys keep excluding yourself making it hard on yourselves and such in game and on the forums with these kind of comments. How are devs supposed to decide what quality is, all we are doing here is spouting opinions on the forums so they pretty much have to go with quantity. Also im pretty sure no one right now is saying melee is more powerfull than guns, not sure why your are saying this other than to make yourself look like the "underdog" which is why i said your making it hard on yourself

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Lordricker said:

 

You guys keep excluding yourself making it hard on yourselves and such in game and on the forums with these kind of comments. How are devs supposed to decide what quality is, all we are doing here is spouting opinions on the forums so they pretty much have to go with quantity. Also im pretty sure no one right now is saying melee is more powerfull than guns, not sure why your are saying this other than to make yourself look like the "underdog" which is why i said your making it hard on yourself

Well, there may be some exageration, but melee is still subpar compared to guns mostly because the main issues aren't adressed and damage of melee weapons keeps being reduced for no reason or warning (did you know Sismic Palm 'pause' combo and Gaia's Tragedy 'hold' combo were nerfed without mention on patch notes?) and mechanics that make melee viable (if annoying, like chain stagger) are removed without compensation. And to add rub salt on the wound overpowered or near-overpowered guns aren't touched at all or are just reduced in power by a negligible amount (example: Gorgon series recent "nerf").

On my case I write stuff like that usually after hotfix or updates out of frustration nothing gets done to improve melee, or what is done is for the worse of the playstyle. Or when I  waste time trying to convince a gunzealot melee needs to be rebalanced.

[MattHarrigan]

On 3/11/2016 at 1:50 PM, rockscl said:

my point of view hasnt changed, air melee and ground melee should be fully directional, the engine needs to spin the torso accordingly to the mouse`s direction, it needs to actually handle more analogic input accordingly to what is going on, in the air, tapping E should make a quick stab/jab/frontal attack in the direction of the mouse with a cool down of 0.3-1 seconds accordingly to weapon class, holding E should swing towards that direction, and the swinged weapon should be kept in place as long as E is holded down meaning you are now able to hit some one that went  out of your frontal cone, and under or above your Y axis

slam attacks could be done with double E tap downwards, and over all of that, aerial sword alone CC should be considered even if it comes with mods+tradeoffs, i cant understand why that hasnt happened yet

in resume whatever happens to melee needs to be in the direction of removing animation control over player input, thats is how parkour2 raised the verticality of the matches, scrapped key framed movements in favor of analogic control, but melee stood in the past

This is a very interesting suggestion. I think this would give air melee the love it deserved!