Should Valkyr's armor be nerfed?

[[DE]Momaw]

53 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

If Valkyr's survivability is considered problematic in this game, then trust me when I say it's not because of her armor.

Indeed.  Valkyr needs tuning, but really what she needs is to take a page from Inaros' playbook:

1. Less godmode on Hysteria
2. More health (bleed procs are blatantly unfair to frames balanced around having armor

Edited March 13, 2016 by Momaw

[DxAdder]

Are we really back to this AGAIN ?

 

[Foefaller]

16 minutes ago, AntifaHooligan said:

People that say Hysteria is OP just don't play Valkyr, do they? First off, it limits what you can do to basically melee damage (and we all know how damage-based abilites fall-off at higher levels unless coupled with others). It's not "unlimited invulnerability", you need to have a constant supply of energy and between nullifiers, energy leeches, disruptors and magnetic procs there are plenty of ways to lose Hysteria in a blink.
In the end, as someone who mains Valkyr, I find myself using hysteria mostly to either revive an ally, pop a life support capsule or on those "Oh s****" moments. Having it up 24/7 is a common mistake to those new to the frame as it really limits your teamplay.
And more on-topic, please don't touch her armor it's fine as it is. ^-^

Weapon summoning abilities are typically the exception to the damage falloff rule of thumb, since they usually benefit from most of the mods that the player is using for that weapon type (on top of normal ability mods like intensify), and the weapon abilities at rank 30 are, without exception, better than any unmodded weapon.

Good way to test this is to go to the moon with a melee weapon that has multiple elemental mods. First time you run into a sentient, enter hysteria and start wailing. You should see the sentient develop damage immunities to one or more of the damage types you added to your melee weapon, even though the normal damage for Hysteria is an even mix of slash/impact/puncture.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Foefaller

[sotvrna]

9 minutes ago, Foefaller said:

Weapon summoning abilities are typically the exception to the damage falloff rule of thumb, since they usually benefit from most of the mods that the player is using for that weapon type (on top of normal ability mods like intensify), and the weapon abilities at rank 30 are, without exception, better than any unmodded weapon.

Good way to test this is to go to the moon with a melee weapon that has multiple elemental mods. First time you run into a sentient, enter hysteria and start wailing. You should see the sentient develop damage immunities to one or more of the damage types you added to your melee weapon, even though the normal damage for Hysteria is an even mix of slash/impact/puncture.

No arguments there, the last changes to Hysteria and similar abilities did make them viable for more of the end game content (but make no mistake, the damage still falls-off). Still, the point stands. 

Edit: Just a small adendo. It makes sense that a casted weapon would do more damage than a regular one, as these take energy to keep up.

Edited March 13, 2016 by AntifaHooligan

[Eda.Mone]

1 hour ago, Gordon9106 said:

600 armor for a beserk frame,it is still too high. At least reduce it by 50 or a hundred.

Nono.. It's not too much, she has no shields, she has only hp.. Which doesn't even get that high. Removing even just 50 armor points would be an unnecessary nerf to her.

[evilfluffy]

Did I seriously read that someone wants to make valkyr less of a health tank because shes supposed to be berserker frame which is normally portrayed as a health tank in games.  To be health tank you either have to good at self healing, have high armor/decent hp, heave ridiculous hp, or some combination of the rest.  Her armor was increased because she wasn't being an effective health tank/berserker.

[My_Brain_Trembles]

19 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

Her armor is fine, but the invulnerability on Hysteria needs to go.

If they took that away then they would have to remove the forced melee. Zephyr can pop  Turbulence and while in corpus missions be near impossible to kill with a half-assed player all while having her weapons available. Mesa, a dps frame, has  Shatter Shield which reduces all incoming dmg by 95%, while having her weapons available. Equinox with  Pacify can reduce enemy dmg by 89%, granted she would need a trin ev for late game. Mirage, one of the strongest DPS frames in the game, has  Eclipse which, while in shade, provides 95% dmg mitigation, while being able to use her weapons. Chroma while using  Elemental Ward gains 448.5% armor, reflected dmg and a massive dmg buff from Vex (8.9x) on top of a 10x armor multiplier AND he can use his weapons.

Yea, all of a sudden that "OP" hysteria doesn't seem so OP huh? :p

[Senoinya]

1 hour ago, Gordon9106 said:

600 armor for a beserk frame,it is still too high. At least reduce it by 50 or a hundred.

Are you...

Are you serious?

Let me just... Let me just emphasize what you just said here:

Too much armor for a Berserk frame.

...

Berserkers are intended for rushing straight at enemies head-on with a melee weapon and slashing them to death. It's only logical that the Berserker is going to be heavily armored. Do you think it'd be logical to have a frame designed for melee that dies just as easily as the frames intended for range? If anything, she could use even more armor.

If you nerf her armor, that'll just discourage what few Valks don't just spam Hysteria, because they'll have to just to make use of her Berserker design that needs improvements as it is.

So no, don't nerf her armor. That's a terrible idea and honestly one of the most random bad ideas I've seen on here. Who even complains about Valk's armor?

[Leqesai]

4 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

"quite high"

You can reach 400. That's very high indeed.

620 if you've steel fiber.

It's nice to have 5k hp, but with 620 armor it's like having 15k shield. It gets depleted pretty fast on high level.

its like having 15K shield? What?

Inaros has no shield so, with rage, he is constantly regaining energy.

Pair this with lifestrike (properly set up for channeling efficiency) and you will be regaining HP constantly without risk of running out of energy.

Valkyr, with vitality, steel fiber, and vigor has effective HP of like 5.5K With max armor rating you're looking at 6518 (its a 3% damage reduction bonus for having armored agility on top of steel fiber).

Inaros has an effective HP value, using ONLY vitality (no armor mods and no bonus armor from ult) of 9123. If you plug in the numbers you provided (620 armor) his effective HP jumps to 17300.

Why does he need Valkyr's armor rating again?

He's already looking at 3x her effective health, as it is, on a setup that is able to sustain itself better than any other frame in the game and without suffering much penalty for playing nightmare maps.

The biggest thing to consider, when it comes to armor rating, is from 200-600 there is a gain of nearly 30% damage reduction. from 600-1530 there is a gain of less than 17%.

[My_Brain_Trembles]

13 minutes ago, Momaw said:

Indeed.  Valkyr needs tuning, but really what she needs is to take a page from Inaros' playbook:

1. Less godmode on Hysteria
2. More health (bleed procs are blatantly unfair to frames balanced around having armor

That second part won't change because that was the very nerf to DoT in the game, back when Acrid was the OP weapon to have. They made it so that armor would affect DoT. Yea, heavily armored frames can easily take on bleed while low armor frames fall apart but if they changed it we would go back to status weapons being king and DE doesn't want that.

[Senoinya]

1 minute ago, Leqesai said:

its like having 15K shield? What?

Inaros has no shield so, with rage, he is constantly regaining energy.

Pair this with lifestrike (properly set up for channeling efficiency) and you will be regaining HP constantly without risk of running out of energy.

Valkyr, with vitality, steel fiber, and vigor has effective HP of like 5.5K With max armor rating you're looking at 6518 (its a 3% damage reduction bonus for having armored agility on top of steel fiber).

Inaros has an effective HP value, using ONLY vitality (no armor mods and no bonus armor from ult) of 9123. If you plug in the numbers you provided (620 armor) his effective HP jumps to 17300.

Why does he need Valkyr's armor rating again?

He's already looking at 3x her effective health, as it is, on a setup that is able to sustain itself better than any other frame in the game and without suffering much penalty for playing nightmare maps.

The biggest thing to consider, when it comes to armor rating, is from 200-600 there is a gain of nearly 30% damage reduction. from 600-1530 there is a gain of less than 17%.

Don't forget Trinity who can become immune to all status effects and 75% of all damage + instantly heal herself and get a 99% damage reduction out of it for the entire team, + restore her own energy easily.

[evilfluffy]

9 minutes ago, Kaoru_Sugimura said:

If they took that away then they would have to remove the forced melee. Zephyr can pop  Turbulence and while in corpus missions be near impossible to kill with a half-assed player all while having her weapons available. Mesa, a dps frame, has  Shatter Shield which reduces all incoming dmg by 95%, while having her weapons available. Equinox with  Pacify can reduce enemy dmg by 89%, granted she would need a trin ev for late game. Mirage, one of the strongest DPS frames in the game, has  Eclipse which, while in shade, provides 95% dmg mitigation, while being able to use her weapons. Chroma while using  Elemental Ward gains 448.5% armor, reflected dmg and a massive dmg buff from Vex (8.9x) on top of a 10x armor multiplier AND he can use his weapons.

Yea, all of a sudden that "OP" hysteria doesn't seem so OP huh? :p

 

7 minutes ago, Valsako said:

Are you...

Are you serious?

Let me just... Let me just emphasize what you just said here:

Too much armor for a Berserk frame.

...

Berserkers are intended for rushing straight at enemies head-on with a melee weapon and slashing them to death. It's only logical that the Berserker is going to be heavily armored. Do you think it'd be logical to have a frame designed for melee that dies just as easily as the frames intended for range? If anything, she could use even more armor.

If you nerf her armor, that'll just discourage what few Valks don't just spam Hysteria, because they'll have to just to make use of her Berserker design that needs improvements as it is.

So no, don't nerf her armor. That's a terrible idea and honestly one of the most random bad ideas I've seen on here. Who even complains about Valk's armor?

\

I have to say it you 2 get it so much.

[TotallyLagging]

I want to slap you, OP, I really do.

19 minutes ago, Kaoru_Sugimura said:

That second part won't change because that was the very nerf to DoT in the game, back when Acrid was the OP weapon to have. They made it so that armor would affect DoT. Yea, heavily armored frames can easily take on bleed while low armor frames fall apart but if they changed it we would go back to status weapons being king and DE doesn't want that.

Yeah, Acrid was OP. 

They could've just make it so that it only affect frames and not enemies.

Edited March 13, 2016 by TotallyLagging
I came out r00d, sorry

[Leqesai]

OH!

 

I forgot to mention the maths on Inaros with Vitality+Steel Fiber+Armored Agility+Vigor and his ult = 21774 effective health

Needs moar amorz.. Valkyr too OP QQ

[(PSN)Dark-TailedFox]

42 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

Her armor is fine, but the invulnerability on Hysteria needs to go.

Hmm....No.

Warcry exists if you'd like to replace it with damage reduction and Life Strike with efficiency mods (Focus Energy and Reflex Coil) to mimic that unneeded change.

But to the OP: outside of Hysteria, her base 600 armor lets her die 1 or 2 seconds slower than any other frame within her squad, so its pretty balanced out already because she's still dying without awareness, especially when a Manic catches you or Stalker.

[My_Brain_Trembles]

1 minute ago, TotallyLagging said:

I want to slap you, OP, I really do.

Yeah, Acrid was OP. 

...and what does this have to do with frame armor again? They could've just make it so that it only affect frames and not enemies.

Because it was much simpler to have them just change armor over the game to affect dmg types over all factions rather than making individual changes to enemy and allied factions (warframes). This also provided greater reasoning to use armored frames in PvP rather than just pulling out spam frames. Granted i am still talking about back when all this was implemented. I doubt they make any changes to how status/DoT is affected by armor at this point but at that time it wasn't a "bad" idea. Still sucked that my acrid collects dust now though T-T

[sotvrna]

In the end, it comes down to the fact that every frame has their own way of going """"invincible"""". Valkyr has Hysteria. Inaros has... his whole kit. Trinity can self heal + self imun. Loki can disarm and go invisible. Saryn can use Regenerative Molt. And so on and so on... When it comes to end game, all frames can "godmode" and it boils down to how long you can go without making a mistake and being insta-killed by a heavy gunner.

[Senoinya]

1 minute ago, AntifaHooligan said:

In the end, it comes down to the fact that every frame has their own way of going """"invincible"""". Valkyr has Hysteria. Inaros has... his whole kit. Trinity can self heal + self imun. Loki can disarm and go invisible. Saryn can use Regenerative Molt. And so on and so on... When it comes to end game, all frames can "godmode" and it boils down to how long you can go without making a mistake and being insta-killed by a heavy gunner.

Except Hydroid. Godmode is not possible for Hydroid.

[Leqesai]

Just now, AntifaHooligan said:

In the end, it comes down to the fact that every frame has their own way of going """"invincible"""". Valkyr has Hysteria. Inaros has... his whole kit. Trinity can self heal + self imun. Loki can disarm and go invisible. Saryn can use Regenerative Molt. And so on and so on... When it comes to end game, all frames can "godmode" and it boils down to how long you can go without making a mistake and being insta-killed by a heavy gunner.

Well I don't know about 'all frames' when it comes to going godmode. But most are pretty good at staying alive.

[sotvrna]

1 minute ago, Valsako said:

Except Hydroid. Godmode is not possible for Hydroid.

Hmmmm... you can just press 3. And if you spam 1 and 4 your enemies won't be able to hit you. Like I said, all frames have their own way of going invincible, only some do take more skill than others.

Edited March 13, 2016 by AntifaHooligan

[TheBrsrkr]

For what reason and purpose? 

[Senoinya]

Just now, AntifaHooligan said:

Hmmmm... you can just press 3. And if you spam 1 and 4 your enemis won't be able to hit you. Like I said, all frames have their own way of going invincible, only some do take more skill than others.

Puddle of piss mode doesn't really help kill things while being impossible to kill, though. 1 and 4 do help, but it's only a bandaid.

[TotallyLagging]

5 minutes ago, Kaoru_Sugimura said:

Because it was much simpler to have them just change armor over the game to affect dmg types over all factions rather than making individual changes to enemy and allied factions (warframes). This also provided greater reasoning to use armored frames in PvP rather than just pulling out spam frames. Granted i am still talking about back when all this was implemented. I doubt they make any changes to how status/DoT is affected by armor at this point but at that time it wasn't a "bad" idea. Still sucked that my acrid collects dust now though T-T

Well they have a different team handling Conclave now and their changes are completely separate from PvE so I'm sure they could manage it.

Also Acrid isn't that bad. Nowhere close to its old OP glory ( ...that I've only seen on videos ) but, hey, a lot of weapon got it worse when Damage 2.0 happened.

On 12/03/2016 at 10:31 AM, KingTaro said:

Well, there is Acrid, for instance: http://plays.tv/s/KiDCBtpSpQUR

 

Edited March 13, 2016 by TotallyLagging

[PnOyLeeT]

[(PSN)Dark-TailedFox]

15 minutes ago, Valsako said:

Puddle of piss mode doesn't really help kill things while being impossible to kill, though. 1 and 4 do help, but it's only a bandaid.

Its only "puddle of piss" if your energy is yellow or gold.

And it still counts as godmode because you aren't able to be interacted with beyond them sliding into the pool and it ignores status effects (bleed, corrosive, radiation) and I have no problem killing enemies with my Hydroid in puddle mode, but then again I have Viral procs going off every so often so they're taking dots and occasional 1000 viral damage and halved health and it works just fine.

His 2nd also leaves him totally invincible as well for the duration he transforms into a wave (like shifting through a Grineer scanner and not even triggering the usual magnetic proc because of it).