Do you think that balance is possible with the current state of warframe.

[EmptyDevil]

7 minutes ago, Fifield said:

@EmptyDevil Interestingly, shield gates were one of my suggestions many months ago.  I didn't even know ME3 had it.

Proof: 

 

I wonder how i managed to miss your thread. 

Hoping DE considers adding one.

[Fifield]

All the best suggestions should be pinned somewhere.  It would remove 95% of the noise in this subforum.  Only difficulty is deciding who pins them.

[(PSN)PillarOfWar]

This is one of the funnest games I've played.  I like it the way it is and the general direction it's heading. That's why I have play the snot out of it for years. Balance doesn't mean much to me. 

[DeadlyPeanutt]

6 hours ago, Luther848 said:

What I mean by Balance: No more press 4 to win. No more infinite energy. No more having to have cheese tactics to deal with cheese enemies. No more enemies who are filled with cheese to deal with all the Tenno Cheese. Fair Enemy Scaling. A solid progression system so that you progressively get stronger instead of getting some specific weapons and mods and  the game suddenly turning to easy mode.

define cheese

[Eminem2420]

People seem to use the word "balance" as an easy way to support their ideas. It doesn't work that way. Balance is subjective for every person and therefore, it isn't going to be balanced the way you want. I'm also seeing some pretty salty players here. "Warframe is boring, it should be changed completely like I want." Then don't play it. Simple solution. WF is more like a hack and slash game, and that isn't for everyone.

[DakotaStorm]

I really don't get this whole game culture of OMGITSSOOPMUSTNERFIT!!!

just because a weapon/frame is more powerful, (read powerful as useful) doesn't make it overpowerd. It literally makes it "useful"

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

5 hours ago, Eminem2420 said:

Balance is subjective for every person (...)

No, it is not. The game itself presents various tasks with various difficulty levels, which work as perfectly objective measurement instruments:  To master those we are provided with certain tools, some more, some less effective. If some of those make content intended as endgame a complete cakewalk and alternatives redudant in the process: That's a case of disbalance, period. Powercreep IS a thing. It hurts variety and challenge, the latter being, like i already quoted, a key element to any game. The biggest challenge in this game are probably hacking minigames in sorties... I mean c'mon...

Sure, there also is subjective difficulty since not all humans are blessed with the same degree of dexterity and or experience etc... But this isn't about that. A freaking chimp could be trained to press one button over and over to get some random reward and i'm not being sarcastic. I apologize if this sounds demeaning.

I do not want this game to be impossibly hard from beginning to end. There should be fitting obstacles for anyone, ideally within a certain curve. But "endgame" (in this case sorties and raids) should at least provide some kind of difficulty and not only an artificial one after 3 hours of camping in t4 surv.

5 hours ago, Eminem2420 said:

WF is more like a hack and slash game, and that isn't for everyone.

Hack n slash might be associated with button mashing, but not necessarily the utterly braindead variety...

Edited March 17, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[ThorienKELL]

Balance is not needed, possible nor necessary.

I don't use best weapons, but ones I enjoy using. And if somebody is dumb and uses only OP gear whole the time - let them be, whatever makes them happy. 

[(PSN)wonderwoman814]

You can't please everyone . Once you understand that you will realize ....no..

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

7 minutes ago, ThorienKELL said:

I don't use best weapons, but ones I enjoy using. And if somebody is dumb and uses only OP gear whole the time - let them be, whatever makes them happy. 

I salute you! But i'm afraid i tend to be that kind of dumb person who "plays to win"... for what it's worth: I think it's a rather "natural" approach to gaming.

[(PSN)KikoEschobar]

34 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

No, it is not. The game itself presents various tasks with various difficulty levels, which work as perfectly objective measurement instruments:  To master those we are provided with certain tools, some more, some less effective. If some of those make content intended as endgame a complete cakewalk and alternatives redudant in the process: That's a case of disbalance, period. Powercreep IS a thing. It hurts variety and challenge, the latter being, like i already quoted, a key element to any game. The biggest challenge in this game are probably hacking minigames in sorties... I mean c'mon...

Sure, there also is subjective difficulty since not all humans are blessed with the same degree of dexterity and or experience etc... But this isn't about that. A freaking chimp could be trained to press one button over and over to get some random reward and i'm not being sarcastic. I apologize if this sounds demeaning.

I do not want this game to be impossibly hard from beginning to end. There should be fitting obstacles for anyone, ideally within a certain curve. But "endgame" (in this case sorties and raids) should at least provide some kind of difficulty and not only an artificial one after 3 hours of camping in t4 surv.

Hack n slash might be associated with button mashing, but not necessarily the utterly braindead variety...

Balance is indeed very subjective. Your definition of balance involves the evaluation that endgame (which is another extremely subjective term BTW) can be made simple with the tools we have at the moment. My evaluation involves how the health to armor eqautions are calculated and how survivability past 2 hrs in survival can be improved. There is nothing factual about personal preferences, even if the majority agreed with you that would still be true. 

The second point I can agree on, hack n slash games do not have to be brain-dead fighting. However, is warframe really brain-dead to some? There are a number of game modes that require skilled use of equipment as well as tactics, but people choose to avoid treating these as though they exist. Defense and survival are the two game modes many refer to when questioning issues of balance. But spy, sabotage, etc. should also be taken into consideration when speaking about gameplay mechanics. 

Lastly, this is a video game like every other. In Dark Souls, you mash buttons. In Fallout, you mash buttons. In Need for Speed, you hold a button the entire time (triggers for us console players) so I don't get this "we want less button mashing gameplay" logic. I have never come across an action game that involved more than a few seconds of thought to beat it's content. And the random rewards would never change regardless of any rework to balance that takes place. This is a f2p game, do you think they would ever risk their well being as a business to appease anyone here? The answer is a big NOPE. 

Honestly I think that last part is the reason for all this talk of balance lately. All many of us really want is a rework of how rewards are given and are trying to hide that behind an arbitrary since of thrill seeking. I can respect and get behind people who will actually say that for once in a thread.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

56 minutes ago, (PS4)KikoEschobar said:

Balance is indeed very subjective. Your definition of balance involves the evaluation that endgame (which is another extremely subjective term BTW) can be made simple with the tools we have at the moment. My evaluation involves how the health to armor eqautions are calculated and how survivability past 2 hrs in survival can be improved. There is nothing factual about personal preferences, even if the majority agreed with you that would still be true.

I think i see where you're coming from. When i said "the game" of course i meant the developers. In the end, they decide what is endgame and what's not. They officially stated they don't balance the game around 2 hours into surv missions and sorties were explicitly sold to us as endgame (with raids i'm not sure anymore tbh). Now, even that aside i think there's also still an objective disbalance between frame usefulness and weapon DPSs. When one weapon deals the same or even more damage to a whole mob of enemies like one that's designed to deal major damage to single targets (bows/tonkor), something is off, would you not agree? Remember Penta getting the ammo capacity nerf and yet now the Tonkor is never running out while dealing much more damage with much less risk? Rhino wasn't allowed to be completely invulnerable but now Valkyr is? Only being able to melee is no tradeoff if that melee damage outshines 90% of all the weapons in the game... Exhalted blade is an ultimate skill, aren't those supposed to be saved for when things get really ugly? Yet most of the time it's activated at the beginning of a mission and people keep pressing E from start to finish, the efficiency is ludicruous. Speaking of which we finally have Trinity. That one frame that makes one major mean of balancing skills completely nil: the efficiency. Why should i be using lesser skills when i can just spam "ultimates" all day long?

 

56 minutes ago, (PS4)KikoEschobar said:

But spy, sabotage, etc. should also be taken into consideration when speaking about gameplay mechanics.

Spy missions are completely skippable with Loki and Ciphers. New sabotage is just a mixture of other mission types.

 

56 minutes ago, (PS4)KikoEschobar said:

Lastly, this is a video game like every other. In Dark Souls, you mash buttons. In Fallout, you mash buttons. In Need for Speed, you hold a button the entire time (triggers for us console players) so I don't get this "we want less button mashing gameplay" logic. I have never come across an action game that involved more than a few seconds of thought to beat it's content. And the random rewards would never change regardless of any rework to balance that takes place. This is a f2p game, do you think they would ever risk their well being as a business to appease anyone here? The answer is a big NOPE.

A game does not have to be rocket science to be appropriately challenging. Usually, even if you know all the tactical ropes and got your strategies down there's still some skill involved in actually executing those. In warframe however that often comes down to pressing one single button over and over and over...

 

56 minutes ago, (PS4)KikoEschobar said:

Honestly I think that last part is the reason for all this talk of balance lately. All many of us really want is a rework of how rewards are given and are trying to hide that behind an arbitrary since of thrill seeking. I can respect and get behind people who will actually say that for once in a thread.

At least in my case i can clearly deny that. I accepted DEs business model and made my peace with it. Thing is: I firmly believe that when you are actually on your toes while playing a game, time flies subjectively alot faster. The problem is not only having to repeat content over and over again... it's that content being a snorefest.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[DxAdder]

Balance in a PvE is hard and subject to peoples perspective.

 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

2 minutes ago, DxAdder said:

Balance in a PvE is hard...

Yup.

2 minutes ago, DxAdder said:

...and subject to peoples perspective.

Nope.

[(PSN)KikoEschobar]

Here is why I am so against a rework of this magnitude. We have no influence as to how it will turn out. You can say "DE will take our suggestions into account during the process" to which I say look at it realistically. Damage 2.0 is an example of what they consider balanced. Corrosive and viral have to be the most run elemental combinations used by far. IPS damage is so lacking in potency that most see the use of their mods as suboptimal (speaking of which, why is buzzkill so coveted when 90% of melee weapons see no benefit from it?) and not worth a slot. Corrosive Projection might as well be built into every warframe because it is basically the only aura worthy of being called an aura (energy siphon and steel charge maybe). I could go on and on.

You guys should know by now that entrusting DE with anything outside of content creation is sketchy at best and downright dangerous at worse. Let's see what damage 3.0 is like and how many "WTF" threads pop up.

[(PSN)horridhal]

This isn't Dark souls and, hopefully, it never will be.  The game is balanced around being a horde game, not a "This single enemy is as powerful as you" type of game.  Stop expecting that to change and I'd bet you'd have more fun.

[Fifield]

3 hours ago, ThorienKELL said:

I don't use best weapons, but ones I enjoy using. And if somebody is dumb and uses only OP gear whole the time - let them be, whatever makes them happy. 

Whilst everyone else is using OP ones and *@##$es at you for using junk?

[Cloud]

You know why Balance will never be possible in this game ?

The answer is one : MODS

This feature is really original and interesting and allows unlimited customization.

BUT, how can you think that a bonus which can be applied universally to any weapon of the class (or Frame) could not cause immense balance issues?

I mean, take for example 2 frame : Valkyr and Mag.

Now the possibility to reach 200%+ range on Valkyr is balanced, cause she does not become broken with it. Instead on Mag it let her become an OP Nuker frame.

Or again take Rhino and Nova and power strenght. The possibility to achieve 200% str on Rhino does not broken him, on Nova instead gives her the ability to turn an entire map of enemies in a "Terracotta Army ".

And the same happens with the weapons , one thing is to boost 165% damage on a braton, one thing is to do it on a tonkor !

Now I do not say that every frame, every weapon, etc should have their personal mods. Because this would saturate in an absurd manner the drop tables .... BUT each weapon / frame should have the opportunity to be enhanced within controlled limits.
For example I would make "universally usable" only mods that have a functional effect (such as the one that allows to the bullets of a launcher to attach to surfaces and to detonate on command), whereas all the mods which involve an increase of damage should be converted in a sort of advancement system which is calibrated on the weapon / frame.

So for example in this new advancement system Braton Damage could be increased to 200%, Tonkor to 100% (just an example) . This is Balance or at least a serious attempt to achieve it. And after balancing the players De could start to touch enemies, (WHICH ARE BROKEN BECAUSE OUR FRAME ARE BROKEN).

[(PSN)KikoEschobar]

7 minutes ago, LordCloud00 said:

You know why Balance will never be possible in this game ?

The answer is one : MODS

This feature is really original and interesting and allows unlimited customization.

BUT, how can you think that a bonus which can be applied universally to any weapon of the class (or Frame) could not cause immense balance issues?

I mean, take for example 2 frame : Valkyr and Mag.

Now the possibility to reach 200%+ range on Valkyr is balanced, cause she does not become broken with it. Instead on Mag it let her become an OP Nuker frame.

Or again take Rhino and Nova and power strenght. The possibility to achieve 200% str on Rhino does not broken him, on Nova instead gives her the ability to turn an entire map of enemies in a "Terracotta Army ".

And the same happens with the weapons , one thing is to boost 165% damage on a braton, one thing is to do it on a tonkor !

Now I do not say that every frame, every weapon, etc should have their personal mods. Because this would saturate in an absurd manner the drop tables .... BUT each weapon / frame should have the opportunity to be enhanced within controlled limits.
For example I would make "universally usable" only mods that have a functional effect (such as the one that allows to the bullets of a launcher to attach to surfaces and to detonate on command), whereas all the mods which involve an increase of damage should be converted in a sort of advancement system which is calibrated on the weapon / frame.

So for example in this new advancement system Braton Damage could be increased to 200%, Tonkor to 100% (just an example) . This is Balance or at least a serious attempt to achieve it. And after balancing the players De could start to touch enemies, (WHICH ARE BROKEN BECAUSE OUR FRAME ARE BROKEN).

That's an excellent point LordCloud00. Modding in most other games involves gaining small percentage boosts to items. However in this game you cannot get past Jupiter without a serration on your burston, or power strength mods on your Excal. Personally, I'd prefer the ME3 way of modding ( yes I mentioned it again I know) where weapons had attachments that offered boost to damage, and upgrading a classes skills would give you access to different passives within skill trees. Say for example you leveling a Loki. Your first ability upgrade is invisibility and you have two choices: longer duration or an incremental damage boost firing weapons. I think that would be a welcome change to the current system.

[carnaga]

2 hours ago, (PS4)KikoEschobar said:

That's an excellent point LordCloud00. Modding in most other games involves gaining small percentage boosts to items. However in this game you cannot get past Jupiter without a serration on your burston, or power strength mods on your Excal. Personally, I'd prefer the ME3 way of modding ( yes I mentioned it again I know) where weapons had attachments that offered boost to damage, and upgrading a classes skills would give you access to different passives within skill trees. Say for example you leveling a Loki. Your first ability upgrade is invisibility and you have two choices: longer duration or an incremental damage boost firing weapons. I think that would be a welcome change to the current system.

When I first started to play warframe it was quite different to what I've been used to: character level progression with cards. And you could use just handful of them. It was something completely new and fresh. And now when I mod my frames: if I want maximum range for my skills, it eats my power strength. If I want to utilize my all skills it makes my character vulnerable against incoming damage. So when you build your frame you are doing some kind of a compromise. And I find it fascinating. If I was to chose, I would put all available cards in but we are limited for few of them.

And most of the weapons have their strengths and weaknesses and finding their potential is fun. Does it have good status chance, critical chance or multiplier or is it good with specific damage type. And when we take damage 2.0 in-to count: it gets complex and you need carefully chose what weapon you use depending on the fraction and enemy type you are up against: ferrite armor, alloy or machinery. So you have primary weapon to deal corrosive, secondary dealing blast damage and melee dealing radiation damage. The gameplay is quite fun and strategical while swapping your weaponry depending on what enemy unit you are facing. I think the whole idea and the concept regarding the compromises you are facing is something wonderful.

But at the current state of the game you just run with corrosive and the most op weapon and boom (normal nodes).

Edit: so yes, I believe balancing is possible at the current state of the game. Digital Extremes can do miracles - they were the ones who created the game in the first place - including the evolution engine, mobile app, tennogen and so on.

Edited March 17, 2016 by carnaga

[Fifield]

2 hours ago, LordCloud00 said:

You know why Balance will never be possible in this game ?

The answer is one : MODS

Incorrect.  Balancing merely needs to take mods into account and vice versa.  Mods make it more difficult, and make OP combinations inevitable -- but they should be nerfed asap.

[Eminem2420]

6 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

No, it is not. The game itself presents various tasks with various difficulty levels, which work as perfectly objective measurement instruments:  To master those we are provided with certain tools, some more, some less effective. If some of those make content intended as endgame a complete cakewalk and alternatives redudant in the process: That's a case of disbalance, period. Powercreep IS a thing. It hurts variety and challenge, the latter being, like i already quoted, a key element to any game. The biggest challenge in this game are probably hacking minigames in sorties... I mean c'mon...

Sure, there also is subjective difficulty since not all humans are blessed with the same degree of dexterity and or experience etc... But this isn't about that. A freaking chimp could be trained to press one button over and over to get some random reward and i'm not being sarcastic. I apologize if this sounds demeaning.

I do not want this game to be impossibly hard from beginning to end. There should be fitting obstacles for anyone, ideally within a certain curve. But "endgame" (in this case sorties and raids) should at least provide some kind of difficulty and not only an artificial one after 3 hours of camping in t4 surv.

Hack n slash might be associated with button mashing, but not necessarily the utterly braindead variety...

utterly brain dead? Yeah whatever.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

8 minutes ago, Eminem2420 said:

utterly brain dead? Yeah whatever.

Blimey, good point!

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Sure they make two star maps. One we have now with everything removed except for one frame with no powers and looks like a Soldier from COD and he has a Branton and the enemy can only scale to 35. 

and then there's the other star chart meant for endless scaling and why I @(*()$ came here to play Warframe. 

[Ohmlink]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

Sure they make two star maps. One we have now with everything removed except for one frame with no powers and looks like a Soldier from COD and he has a Branton and the enemy can only scale to 35. 

and then there's the other star chart meant for endless scaling and why I @(*()$ came here to play Warframe. 

No one in this thread has stated they wanted anything close to what you said, quitthrowing S#&$ for the sake of it.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Ohmlink