Margulis, Natah, and the Warframes - How are they all Connected?

[stratavar]

Alright, well I've gotten into a typing frenzy thanks to having to delve into the lore surrounding the Warframes, and it left me with a feeling that I wanted to share my thoughts on the Warframes, Margulis, and Natah, and how they might possibly be connected to one another.

I actually typed a tad of this up as a response in another theory-crafting thread a few weeks ago, so if you by chance have seen this, bear with me.  I'll be making use of Spoiler Tabs, simply to make this thread more readable.

Margulis

Spoiler

First, let's explore Margulis and her part that she plays in the story of the Tenno.  Margulis is first encountered(possibly, as it was never confirmed, and the original entry states that the character's name was "Kaleen") finding children aboard the Zariman 10-0.  She was afflicted by their Void Powers, blinding and scarring her face.  There is still a possibility that this was not Margulis, but most of Margulis's interaction with the Tenno and her ultimate fate seems spot-on for a link to be drawn to this "Kaleen" character, who has never been mentioned since the Ember Prime Codex Entry.

From what we know if Kaleen is indeed Margulis, she saw the fearful children aboard the Zariman 10-0, and despite affliction she was faced with, she pushed on and held the children dear.  Margulis was a mother to them after they lost their families, and she may have even developed an interest for motherhood, in a similar fashion to what we see in the "Natah" quest for Lotus.

Transference becomes a possibility thanks to the the scientific efforts of Margulis and the Orokin, but it doesn't take long to realize what this means for the Tenno.  The Orokin intend to build a super-weapon to conquer their enemies(ironically enough, the enemies that they themselves created) - The Warframes.  Margulis would naturally object to this, so it's questionable as to if she was even still alive after the creation of the first Warframes.  Saryn Prime's Reveal certainly suggests that at the very least, she was dead before Saryn's creation.

Setting the Stage: Story-line Progression

Spoiler

Really, the whole time frame is very fractured at the moment.  If you follow the Corpus Detron Crewman's Entry and consider the scientist being executed mentioned in the beginning to be Margulis, then this means that the events of the Zariman 10-0 occurred before the creation of the Sentients and Infested.  That really wacks with a lot of the possibilities of the timeline, but at the same time, would suggest that Transference came a good time after the Tenno were first placed in Cryostasis.

So if that's actually the case, then that puts the creation of the Sentients, Infested, and Warframes within a somewhat small window, assuming that the Orokin age like a human would be expected to.  I would personally expect no more than 30 years from the events of the Zariman 10-0 and the beginning of the Great War if that were the case, as I'm doubtful that Ballas could keep such a job past his 50s and 60s.  Executing people is hard work....  Ballas even mentions Transference's inception into the story-line, and mentions the "rejects" that were sent to Lua:

Quote

"...it's about the other rejects we consigned to Lua a few years ago. They're calling it... Transference."

That still doesn't place a pin on the introduction of the Tenno, but if the consigning occurred shortly after the children came back, then that shortens the time-frame considerably.
If we make some assumptions for this story-line here, and say that Margulis was executed within a year's time of the return of the Zariman 10-0, and that was indeed her in the both the Ember Prime and Corpus Detron Crewman Entries, then we can assume that the creation of the Sentients and Infested occurred either before or around the time of the discovery of Transference.

Personally though, I believe that this individual wasn't Margulis in the Detron Crewman's Entry simply for the fact that shifting the Sentient and Infested timeframe ahead of the Zariman 10-0 helps flesh out a timeline that doesn't seem so crazily rushed.  It was mentioned somewhere, but I can't seem to find where, that the Zariman 10-0 was jumping to the Lua system as a part of the first wave of ships to arrive after the terraforming that would've been completed by the Sentients.  It could indeed be that the Sentients were waiting for them there, the Tenno actually "lucked out" that the jump failed, and weren't annihilated on arrival like the rest of the Orokin who arrived on the other side.

 

So to hopefully mock up a plausible timeline, we have this:
Items with Question Marks Can easily be adjusted accordingly to fit different storyline criteria.

Spoiler

• Creation of the Sentients - Sentients sent to Terraform Lua
• Zariman Jump to Lua(Zariman 10-0 incident)
• Sentients begin travelling to Terminus
• Tenno Placed in Cryostasis
• Margulis Executed
• First combat encounters of Sentients(?) - Technological Improvements
• Infestation Created(?)
• Tenno subjected to Experiments on Lua
• Warframe Creation(?(Possibly hinted in Rhino Prime Codex))
• Sentients arrive in full force(?) - Infestation uncontrollable(?)
• Great War Erupts - Tenno and Warframes show great Success
• Natah sent through Void to infiltrate Orokin Empire and manipulate Tenno
• Great War Continues, exhausting Orokin Empire - Natah Successful
• Supposed End of Great War - Sentients hide away - Tenno Betrayal
• Moon placed in Void by Natah - Tenno in Cryostasis - Warframes scattered across System

Now with a plausible timeline in place, I'll begin covering the topics of Warframes, Natah, and Margulis a little more in-depth.

 

What are Warframes exactly?
This is copied from a response to another post earlier.  I'll be revising it to make it fall more in line with this post here.

Spoiler

Pretty much all content in the Codex that talks about the creation of Warframes suggests that they are some kind of culmination of the orokin's 3 most potent technologies, or at least 2.  Sentient and Infested technology, and possibly even Grineer Cloning seem make up the Warframes.

 

The thing that seems most likely have caused the events in the Second Dream quest(breaking War without the assistance of the Operator) is the infested flesh of the Warframe.  The infested is a Hive-mind, as shown by both codex entries and gameplay.  What this means is that infested flesh shares a will across all other forms of infestation.  If you've ever seen the movie "Edge of Tomorrow", which is based off of the novel "All You Need is Kill", the enemies there are also a Hive-mind.  Infested flesh lives independently of the main source of consciousness, but essentially follows the "Queen's" will(Queen being the main source of consciousness).  That flesh can also communicate to other organisms that share similarities with one another, which is shown by Infested bosses communicating with us in dialogue, and referring to us as "one of us."  Another thing that you can find in the codex, and also by listening to the operator, is that the older infested entities that have fed on creatures are more powerful, and possibly posses more of a consciousness than younger, weaker infested bodies. 

 

If the Warframes are indeed made of infested flesh, then it is possible that they do in fact contain a form of consciousness within them.  But the question has to be asked - How does the Warframe not simply join the ranks of the infested Hive-mind if it is made of infested flesh?  For one, the operator when talking about the infested suggests that we are "immune" to them, but they still attack us.  Infested attack for the purpose of spreading their infestation, and expanding their ranks.  They're essentially a virus or bacteria.  Every action is for the sake of survival and expansion.  There is something that separates the infested flesh found in our enemies and the infested flesh found inside our Warframes.  This starts moving on to my personal theory about the Warframes at this point, which are two potentially conjoined theories as well.  Sentients continually adapt and build, while Grineer flesh rapidly decomposes.

 

What if the infested flesh inside of our Warframe is continually decomposing, like the Grineer, and then being rebuilt, by the Sentient technology, making it an entirely new substance?  This would allow a fairly potent regeneration factor while being incredibly resilient to damage.  All the while, the current infestation cannot affect the flesh nor conscious if adapted by the Sentient technology, and the flesh cannot continue to age and build a progressively complex conscious, essentially stunting and freezing its intelligence to a similar level that was displayed during the Second Dream quest.

 

This could be a possible explanation for what we witnessed in the Second Dream Questline, and if the Rhino Prime Codex entry is mentioning the first attempts at creating a Warframe, that as well.

 

What about the Void?

Spoiler

My theory on this is a fairly simple one, considering what we currently understand of the void.  
The void is essentially a dimension that contains immense energy, and defies most standard laws of logic and physics.  This can be seen in a multitude of ways.  The new Moon Spy missions allow traveling through time and space.  It's possible that through this, we could even travel back in time and interact with characters in the story-line, but personally, I believe that DE will show some restraint in using the Void as the catch-all excuse to get away with weak plot-holes.
Another thing that is suggested through a few points of lore and game-play is that the Void somehow connects or possibly bombards the consciousness of individuals that have an affinity with it.  Vor, after being afflicted with void energy, suddenly becomes a wacko.  Is he just a nut-job, or has he possibly transcended his original level of intellect and consciousness?  Is it possible that The void, much like the Infestation, eventually inflicts a very Hive-mind-like state on its victims?  This could also be hinted in the Second Dream, where Margulis mentions voices.
 

Quote

"This will stop the voices from taking hold. You will have to dream, my angel..."

What voices could possibly be "taking hold" of the Tenno?  Could the void even be something much like a dimension where the consciousness of the dead gather?  It would be comparable to Heaven at that rate.  A gathering of lost souls if you will.

Now with that segway rolling right in: Margulis and Natah.

Spoiler

Margulis is clearly dead well before the events of the Great War.  Now, glancing back at the questions  about the Void, this is where my theory on these two starts moving into the picture.  What would it be like as a consciousness in the Void?  Would you be in a Limbo-like state (pun intended)?  Would it all be a haze?  Could you even possibly connect to the minds of others that are under the influence of Void energy?  It's no secret that Sentients are weak to the void.  Codex entries, including the Detron Crewman's entry, suggest that the void is like a "poison" to them.  But it could simply be that Sentients begin to notice the effects of the Void at an accelerated rate.  This could be something that happens to any and all living beings with a conscious.

This argument, while somewhat weak, could lead to the explanation of many events that we've seen so far.  Returning to the topic of the Void being a "gathering of souls".  Margulis was afflicted by Void energy, but survived her encounter with the Tenno.  Vor slowly poisoned himself with his Janus key, and was eventually killed by void energy as well.  Basically what I'm getting at, is that Margulis's conscious may still very well be or could've been alive, but trapped in the void.  The void may take on a role where it always reclaims what belongs to it in the end.
Natah, to come back to the Terminus and facilitate the betrayal of the Tenno, had to travel via Void Jump.  Doing this made her sterile, but what if it did even more than that?  What if even inhabiting the Void exposes your consciousness to those "souls" that are forever linked to the Void?  My theory is that while Natah was traveling to the Terminus, Margulis, or what may have been left of her consciousness, noticed Natah, and was able to see her intent of manipulating, and eventually ultimately killing the Tenno, by invading her mind.  With what energy Margulis may have had, she planted a seed inside of Natah's head.  It was the seed of herself.  Her desire to protect her "children."  It may even be possible that Margulis planted a portion of her own consciousness inside of Natah to protect the Tenno.

 

With this, Natah arrives in the Terminus, intending to manipulate the Tenno, but she then becomes torn by an unexplained maternal instinct or "desire" of motherhood.  Remember that Sentients are born with a goal.  The entirety of their existence is built around following through with their goal.  Do you think that an intelligence of this level would just inadvertently develop and interest in children, and betray its kind so readily?

The final events of the Great War and Natah's deception transpire, leaving the Tenno in Cryostasis on the Moon, and Warframes scattered across the Terminus.  And now here we are, playing Warframe.

TL:DR, because it was super long:  Margulis while in the Limbo of the Void after Death, plants seed in Natah's head, protecting the Tenno from her plan to kill them.  AKA Space-Ghost-Mom saves the day.

Super long post.  Feel free to talk, comment,  flame, or do whatever.  I'm just glad to type it for the hell of it.

[SilvaDreams]

Not this whole ghost of Margulis again...

The sentients where made to be livingterraformers, sent to the tau system to pave the way and construct a rail gate.... They did it then wanted to return home.

The Orokin being the pricks they were already thought ahead and had engineered a flaw which destroyed their ability to reproduce if they used the rails to traverse thevoid and thus kicked off the war.

 

Now have you ever met a woman who found out they can never have kids?

They get stupidly maternal over children and adopt them..... Or become the crazy cat lady.

We're a little bit of both.

[stratavar]

11 minutes ago, SilvaDreams said:

Not this whole ghost of Margulis again...

The sentients where made to be livingterraformers, sent to the tau system to pave the way and construct a rail gate.... They did it then wanted to return home.

The Orokin being the pricks they were already thought ahead and had engineered a flaw which destroyed their ability to reproduce if they used the rails to traverse thevoid and thus kicked off the war.

 

Now have you ever met a woman who found out they can never have kids?

They get stupidly maternal over children and adopt them..... Or become the crazy cat lady.

We're a little bit of both.

Now have you ever met a Sentient being well beyond our level of intelligence, capable of continually adapting the entirety of their being to resist nearly all forms of external damage, created for the sole purpose of a single mission to eradicate the people that basically betrayed them from the start?  Expecting a being like that to want to be a mother is honestly more far-fetched than somebody essentially brainwashing her into it.

[SilvaDreams]

4 minutes ago, stratavar said:

Now have you ever met a Sentient being well beyond our level of intelligence, capable of continually adapting the entirety of their being to resist nearly all forms of external damage, created for the sole purpose of a single mission to eradicate the people that basically betrayed them from the start?  Expecting a being like that to want to be a mother is honestly more far-fetched than somebody essentially brainwashing her into it.

We've only run into two in game,  Hunhow and Natah (aka space mom)

The other things you are thinking of are merely shards or drones of Hunhow, and yes they are quite focused on their singular job.

But Natah is his daughter or child a full separate thinking entity like you orI and not a drone.I

[stratavar]

1 hour ago, SilvaDreams said:

We've only run into two in game,  Hunhow and Natah (aka space mom)

The other things you are thinking of are merely shards or drones of Hunhow, and yes they are quite focused on their singular job.

But Natah is his daughter or child a full separate thinking entity like you orI and not a drone.I

You're really implying that these things that are basically highly functioning computers with biomechanical structures can be reasoned into a category that suggests that they're totally morally and intellectually comparable to a human being?  I would expect DE to take a more complex route honestly than just "feelings made it so".  Seems too much of a trope.  If it hasn't hit you yet,  I think I-Robot was a bad movie.

Besides, we don't know how they reproduce, other than what seems to be some obscure evidence from the Detron Crewman Synthesis that suggests mitosis is the closest thing to what we observe here in our world.  Expecting a "normal" Father-Daughter relationship from that is kinda.....weird to begin with.

[SilentMobius]

 

Quote

 I would personally expect no more than 30 years from the events of the Zariman 10-0 and the beginning of the Great War if that were the case, as I'm doubtful that Ballas could keep such a job past his 50s and 60s.

 

Just FYI the devs have repeatedly commented on how they wanted to represent the Orokin's "Immortality" often talking about seeing them in sealed containers where they only show projections, etc etc. I think that all bets are off as far as being able to attribute normal living timescales to the highest ranks of the Orokin Empire.

Another note. The infestation may well be a result of a "backfire" in the development of the "Golems" that we now see as Lephantis, J3, etc, etc. Whatever they were made from may well have existed before that point.

As far as the timeline goes, my current assumptions are as follows:

1. Resources become scant in the Origin System
2. Many programs are set up to solve this problem
3. One of them is a far-jump capable ship the Zariman Ten-Zero. Loaded with colonists who were not told how risky the jump was.
4. The Zariman disappears before it's scheduled long-jump to Tau because of experimental engines
5. The Zariman children are found and Margulis tries to care for them.
6. The Executors terminate her project, along with her.
7. Perintol receives approval to use the starfish-robots
8. They are sent to Tau in real-space
9. They get there and build the Solar Rail
10. The Orokin try to eliminate them
11. War starts in the Tau system as the evolved machines fight back.

Edited March 17, 2016 by SilentMobius

[SilvaDreams]

31 minutes ago, stratavar said:

You're really implying that these things that are basically highly functioning computers with biomechanical structures can be reasoned into a category that suggests that they're totally morally and intellectually comparable to a human being?  I would expect DE to take a more complex route honestly than just "feelings made it so".  Seems too much of a trope.  If it hasn't hit you yet,  I think I-Robot was a bad movie.

Besides, we don't know how they reproduce, other than what seems to be some obscure evidence from the Detron Crewman Synthesis that suggests mitosis is the closest thing to what we observe here in our world.  Expecting a "normal" Father-Daughter relationship from that is kinda.....weird to begin with.

Well the sentients are a bit weird to begin with, they were a technology that the Orokin had already banned previously but in their desperation as resources dwindled changed their minds.

From what I can tell they were a lower being that was brought up to human levels in mental capacity.

Also it's not like Hunhow hasn't shown sighs of emotions, otherwise why would the sentients begin a war? They were mad at being denied at not being allowed to return to their birth place.

[SilentMobius]

Just now, SilvaDreams said:

Also it's not like Hunhow hasn't shown sighs of emotions, otherwise why would the sentients begin a war? They were mad at being denied at not being allowed to return to their birth place.

I think it's more that the Orokin tried to eliminate them once they'd performed their task and built the Tau solar rail.

The Mag Prime codex shows that the Orokin were sending Troops to Tau to assault "Sentient Worm Ships" given the presence of a Mag Warframe that suggests that the War was significantly in progress at that point, yet still being fought in Tau.

IMHO the sentients only sent Hunhow, Natah and however many others, back to the Origin system in order to wipe out humanity so prevent further attacks. Not because they wanted to be there.

[rand0mname]

On 17.03.2016 at 2:18 PM, SilentMobius said:

 

1. Resources become scant in the Origin System
2. Many programs are set up to solve this problem
3. One of them is a far-jump capable ship the Zariman Ten-Zero. Loaded with colonists who were not told how risky the jump was.
4. The Zariman disappears before it's scheduled long-jump to Tau because of experimental engines
5. The Zariman children are found and Margulis tries to care for them.
6. The Executors terminate her project, along with her.
7. Perintol receives approval to use the starfish-robots
8. They are sent to Tau in real-space
9. They get there and build the Solar Rail
10. The Orokin try to eliminate them
11. War starts in the Tau system as the evolved machines fight back.

5. “Project Crewmen” - mindless bodies from an proto infestation virus tissue crafted by Margulis for kids to inhabit and not set things on fire? "Your mind - projected into a surrogate strong enough to withstand your power". Hey, it could be a rejected idea and sleeping was what she stopped at. Edit: I stand corrected: If Zariman was a colonization ship sent into Tau after Sentients finished terraforming and building Relay... No way it was Margulis being killed in Crewman entry.

6. It was scrapped and for an for unknown amount of time kids were put in an endless dream without a dream on Lua. "This is where they keep them. The ones from Zariman".

7-11. This give space for Hunhow and company to evolve and become angry enough with Orokin to try to wipe them out (second part probably was easy and fast, Orokin do seem very unlikable).

12. War. Orokin loose slowly. Rhino Prime entry can describe later attempts to use Project Crewman in attempts to find some weapon against starfish-robots (what can possibly go wrong?). Probably very changed from the Margulis original drafts, hmm, maybe they tried to cross it with humans, so it will not be mindless. "They stole her research". Kids were not part of it. "I never seen this room".

13. Then another science research go wrong AGAIN and Proto Rhino stumbles close enough to sleeping kids and Transference happens. Hence stopping the rampage and looking at his hands. May explain why scientist was expecting this too – if Rhino and others was based on Margulis research he (scientist not Rhino) could see the original notes. “Big, fat promotions.” = We finally managed to get control over golems, they seem pretty docile now and they can set things on fire if they want! New weapon against Hunhow!

Of course all this have so many holes and contradicts some of the lore.

Edited March 19, 2016 by rand0mname
Typos. Edit.

[SilentMobius]

1 minute ago, rand0mname said:

5. “Project Crewmen” - mindless bodies from an proto infestation virus tissue crafted by Margulis for kids to inhabit and not set things on fire? "Your mind - projected into a surrogate strong enough to withstand your power".

6. It was scrapped and for an for unknown amount of time Tenno were put in an endless dream without a dream on Lua. "This is where they keep them. The ones from Zariman".

7-11. This give space for Hunhow and company to evolve and become angry enough with Orokin to try to wipe them out (second part probably was easy and fast, Orokin do seem very unlikable).

12. War. Orokin loose slowly. Rhino Prime entry can describe later attempts to use Project Crewman in attempts to find some weapon against starfish-robots (what can possibly go wrong?). Probably very changed from the Margulis original drafts, hmm, maybe they tried to cross it with humans, so it will not be mindless. "They stole her research". Tenno was not part of it. "I never seen this room".

13. Then another science research go wrong AGAIN and Proto Rhino stumbles close enough to sleeping Tenno and Transference happens. Hence stopping the rampage and looking at his hands. May explain why scientist was expecting this too – if Rhino and others was based on Margulis research he could see the original notes. “Big, fat promotions.” = We finally managed to get control over golems, they seem pretty docile now and they can set things on fire if they want! New weapon against Hunhow!

Of course all this have so many holes and contradicts some of the lore.

I think it's a mistake to jam the infestation into "Project crewman" where there is zero need to do it. There is nothing suggesting that the Orokin weren't capable of creating modified clones capable of doing the above.

Also I strongly disagree with calling "The Beast" in the RPC a "Proto Rhino", this is before anyone had thought to try to weaponise transference so the idea that anything they were working on could be described as a "Warframe" is a mistake IMHO. Sure, parts of that "Beast" may have ended up in the mix for the Rhino Warframe but that doesn't imply anything else.

E.G. Cows eat grass, cows can move and procreate. A Leather Jacket can do none of these things despite being made using a cow.

[SilvaDreams]

26 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

 

 

Just FYI the devs have repeatedly commented on how they wanted to represent the Orokin's "Immortality" often talking about seeing them in sealed containers where they only show projections, etc etc. I think that all bets are off as far as being able to attribute normal living timescales to the highest ranks of the Orokin Empire.

Another note. The infestation may well be a result of a "backfire" in the development of the "Golems" that we now see as Lephantis, J3, etc, etc. Whatever they were made from may well have existed before that point.

As far as the timeline goes, my current assumptions are as follows:

1. Resources become scant in the Origin System
2. Many programs are set up to solve this problem
3. One of them is a far-jump capable ship the Zariman Ten-Zero. Loaded with colonists who were not told how risky the jump was.
4. The Zariman disappears before it's scheduled long-jump to Tau because of experimental engines
5. The Zariman children are found and Margulis tries to care for them.
6. The Executors terminate her project, along with her.
7. Perintol receives approval to use the starfish-robots
8. They are sent to Tau in real-space
9. They get there and build the Solar Rail
10. The Orokin try to eliminate them
11. War starts in the Tau system as the evolved machines fight back.

The problem with that time line is, the Zimmerman was specifically revered to as a warship and thus the questions of why there were children on it as it was against regulations.

And I'll have to look it up but I believe the Zimmerman was missing for over seven years so it's not like this was a short war.

[Yrveth]

2 hours ago, stratavar said:

TL:DR, because it was super long:  Margulis while in the Limbo of the Void after Death, plants seed in Natah's head, protecting the Tenno from her plan to kill them.  AKA Space-Ghost-Mom saves the day.

I don't like your theory. Not only do you seek to eliminate characters by merging them into one, you also take away their agency. Is it that far-fetched that women can experience more emotions than an overwhelming desire to have children? Why couldn't Natah, during her time undercover among the Orokin, gradually come to care about those children, used and abused by the Empire (just like her own kind)? Couldn't she empathize with their situation, being herself a child used to carry out her leader's agenda? The Tenno hated the Orokin, and so did she, as a Sentient. But she had a lot in common with the Tenno and probably couldn't bear destroying them for being anti-Sentient weapons when she knew they are more than that. When people discuss this line

Quote

Natah was the daughter, until I destroyed her. Now I am the Lotus. Now I am the mother.

they often focus way too much on the last part and not nearly enough on the rest. It's not about playing house with her tiny murder machines, she cast away her past and her nature of an instrument in someone else's plan, and became her own person who makes her own choices. Saying "she's an alien her morals are not comparable to ours" is just as much of a trope as "feelings made it so", only a worse one.

I don't understand why people want every single female character in this story to be the same person, honestly. While it's plausible that her desire to help the Zariman children could drive Kaleen to quit the military and become "the greatest scholar of genetics who ever lived", lumping her together with the Lotus is too much. I truly hope the writers can do better than that.

 

10 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

Also I strongly disagree with calling "The Beast" in the RPC a "Proto Rhino", this is before anyone had thought to try to weaponise transference so the idea that anything they were working on could be described as a "Warframe" is a mistake IMHO. Sure, parts of that "Beast" may have ended up in the mix for the Rhino Warframe but that doesn't imply anything else.

Aww but it's a lot shorter than "the creature parts of which eventually ended up in the mix for the Rhino Warframe". Also I'm unsure no one had thought of weaponizing Transference. At least one person in the Rhino codex lab knew that the children were there. I am wondering if Davis wasn't intentionally leading the "beast" closer to them, seeing how he pieced what was happening so quickly.

 

8 minutes ago, SilvaDreams said:

The problem with that time line is, the Zimmerman was specifically revered to as a warship and thus the questions of why there were children on it as it was against regulations.

The focus school choice dialogue does make the Zariman 10-0 sound like a colony ship, in direct contradiction of the Ember codex. To reconcile them we'd have to assume that Kaleen wasn't aware of the true purpose of the vessel. Alternatively the unnumbered Zariman in the Ember codex is not the 10-0 but an attempt to recreate that accident. The Ember codex either needs an expansion or some sort of retcon for it to work with what we know now.

[rand0mname]

On 17.03.2016 at 2:38 PM, SilentMobius said:

I think it's a mistake to jam the infestation into "Project crewman" where there is zero need to do it. There is nothing suggesting that the Orokin weren't capable of creating modified clones capable of doing the above.

The only reason i jammed it in, was the low possibility that Margulis can be the one killed in Crewman entry. I stand corrected: If Zahriman was a colonization ship sent into Tau after Sentients finished terraforming and building Relay... No way it was Margulis being killed in Crewman entry.

And i do not think that Margulis come up with a "sleep" immideatelly. She could spent some time searching and rejecting other ideas. Like using the "modified clones" out of infested tissue. 

"Organic components are difficult to construct and even more tedious to properly store for future use. The Foundry, while capable of replicating natural and synthetic materials such as fabric or metals, is not properly equipped for the growth of organic life. This also does not take into consideration the complications in growing 'living' subjects -- a point of difficulty the Grineer have long tried to overcome. Infested tissue is the only known exception to this parameter as it can be easily grown and thrives in any environment." Yeh, Orokin probably had something much better then Foundry, but notice: easy, any enviroment and no complications. I do suspect that infested tissue was used othen if you needed some modified clones. I am aware that "Ask a Cephalon" is not the best sourse of lore, but what else we have exept several Codex entries and some flashbacks?

On 17.03.2016 at 2:38 PM, SilentMobius said:

Also I strongly disagree with calling "The Beast" in the RPC a "Proto Rhino", this is before anyone had thought to try to weaponise transference so the idea that anything they were working on could be described as a "Warframe" is a mistake IMHO. Sure, parts of that "Beast" may have ended up in the mix for the Rhino Warframe but that doesn't imply anything else.

"The hulking mass, flickering red, glinting like steel and fresh blood. Its skin changes, flowing like mercury when I'm blinded by the sudden muzzle-flashes. They do no good. The beast surges forward and the security men become crimson mist and gore." Seems like Iron Skin and Charge. Of course with the addition of Eximus it seems like anyone can use Warframe-like abilities, but why this story is in Rhino's codex entry at all then? And why Davis was not closing the door then? Why he expected that something will happen? And why the Beast had a Transference-like moment?

Edited March 18, 2016 by rand0mname
Stupid formating cut the end of a post -_-

[(PSN)robotwars7]

5 hours ago, stratavar said:

assuming that the Orokin age like a human would be expected to.

I highly doubt it, given that the Corpus, who's tech is still not quite on the same level as the Orokin's, are capable of living exceedingly long lives. Darvo is 150, and he's considered young for a Corpus. if the Corpus can live for hundreds of years with their tech, the Orokin could have lived for thousands, if they weren't eradicated that is. Ballas could spend Millennia as an executor if he wanted.

5 hours ago, stratavar said:

How does the Warframe not simply join the ranks of the infested Hive-mind if it is made of infested flesh?

likely because the Transference could override the will of the Infested matter and only grant the Operator control of the Warframe. I imagine that before being used to make a Warframe, the Flesh has to be "processed" first - having any and all signs of sentience removed, essentially tuning it into meat. though I reckon this process could also be reversed, which might explain the scene where we break War: without an operator, any semblance of an infested will is allowed to take over, and obviously the first thing it would do is remove the Sword impaling it.

5 hours ago, stratavar said:

Vor, after being afflicted with void energy, suddenly becomes a wacko.  Is he just a nut-job, or has he possibly transcended his original level of intellect and consciousness?

there is still the possibility that it isn't Vor in control so much as it is the Janus key. The Janus Key's power is clearly immense, a "special" Void Key compared to the rest, which I believe was probably designed as the key to some kind of Orokin WMD, something they might have used against the Sentients.  that's still a stretch, but remember: every key fits a lock somewhere, so the Janus key must open something.

5 hours ago, stratavar said:

Margulis while in the Limbo of the Void after Death, plants seed in Natah's head, protecting the Tenno from her plan to kill them. 

yeah, this is a LOOOONG stretch, It just seems too simple IMO. however, there is something that could link this, something which many of us keep forgetting about: Oro.

Oro, the essence of life that comes from the dead, is hardly explored. all living things in Warframe, aside from robots of course, are supposed to release Oro upon death, so there is a chance that if Oro can bind to Void Energy in some way, that could be what happened with Margulis: she was executed, but her Oro fled to the Void and became trapped there. for all we know, the Void itself could even be made of Oro, or at least have some concentration of Oro within it's energies. until we learn more about the Void itself though, we can only speculate.

[SilentMobius]

2 hours ago, Belgard said:

Aww but it's a lot shorter than "the creature parts of which eventually ended up in the mix for the Rhino Warframe". Also I'm unsure no one had thought of weaponizing Transference. At least one person in the Rhino codex lab knew that the children were there. I am wondering if Davis wasn't intentionally leading the "beast" closer to them, seeing how he pieced what was happening so quickly.

Yeah, but then people start claiming that "Because 'Proto Rhino' was eating, Warframes must be living sapient entities" and "Proto Rhino shows that Warframes can operate on their own" Which are all huge assumptions. Unless otherwise stated the beast is just that "A Beast" not any kind of Warframe. 

Sure, Davis was leading that event and deliberately set up the situation, but I'm including that. But Davis was not performing his "experiment" as part of the wider project, he was already so far out-of-bounds that he had to get guards and almost himself killed in order to test his hypothesis. So whatever the Protagonist and Davis were doing before that point it wasn't making Warframes.

2 hours ago, rand0mname said:

"The hulking mass, flickering red, glinting like steel and fresh blood. Its skin changes, flowing like mercury when I'm blinded by the sudden muzzle-flashes. They do no good. The beast surges forward and the security men become crimson mist and gore." Seems like Iron Skin and Charge. Of course with the addition of Eximus it seems like anyone can use Warframe-like abilities, but why this story is in Rhino's codex entry at all then? And why Davis was not closing the door then? Why he expected that something will happen? And why the Beast had a Transference-like moment?

As I said, elements of the beast would most likely go into making a Warframe, Sure those responses look like they made their way into the Rhino Warframe, and thats obviously why in in the RPC. Obviously Doing this deliberately, but also obviously it wasn't the intent of the project they were working on.

But 

It doesn't work the other way, you can't take all the attributes of that pre-Warframe "Beast" and state that therefor they must apply to Warframes , like the independent action, eating, etc. A leather jacket is not a cow even though a leather jacket shares some of the attributes of cow-skin.

Edited March 17, 2016 by SilentMobius

[Yrveth]

4 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

Yeah, but then people start claiming that "Because 'Proto Rhino' was eating, Warframes must be living sapient entities" and "Proto Rhino shows that Warframes can operate on their own" Which are all _huge_ assumptions. Unless otherwise stated the bease is just that "A Beast" not any kind of Warframe. 

Yikes. Alright, I see your point now. Definitely wouldn't want to wake up to a "So What Are We Feeding The Warframes" thread tomorrow because I overused proto-Rhino here. But at the same time, I can't say with confidence that a warfame couldn't do these things, under certain conditions. It's all assumptions here anyway, and they're bound to change with each piece of lore that is revealed.

14 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

So whatever the Protagonist and Davis were doing before that point it wasn't making Warframes.

Not in the same sense as the frames we have today, sure. But then what? Void-channeling technocyte-based humanoid(?) weapons... that just happened to be Transference-compatible? Is it a matter of how much they changed/improved upon the prototypes before calling them "warframes"? (yes I read about the cow jacket)

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

that's still a stretch, but remember: every key fits a lock somewhere, so the Janus key must open something.

Universal key for tier 4 Orokin vessels!

[rand0mname]

Ah, now I see what you was saying with that beef references, SilentMobius.

For the record, I do think that warframe could be alive. I also think it can be a cyborg. Or anything in between. There are little pointers that can prove any theory.

Interesting idea that Davis was in any way related to the release of the Beast. Love it.

We take the small bits of lore and jam them in any way we think they fit. Rigth now we have so few pieces of a puzzle, that we have to hit them a couple of times to make them to connect in any way. Pretty sure that reveal of a WF insides will leave someone giggling "i knew it" and others will be not happy at all (like the nature of Operator). But there else can we come up with all kinds of crazy theories and find headcannons that other people have if not here?

Prototype can be very different from the end result. It's only in games MK-0 better then the MK-VII ;) Or even look alike.

Just now, Belgard said:

Universal key for tier 4 Orokin vessels!

*reloads The Boomstick. Yes, please. Is it reusable?

*returns to the little camp near The Door and waits for it to open

Edited March 17, 2016 by rand0mname

[SilentMobius]

58 minutes ago, Belgard said:

Not in the same sense as the frames we have today, sure. But then what? Void-channeling technocyte-based humanoid(?) weapons... that just happened to be Transference-compatible? Is it a matter of how much they changed/improved upon the prototypes before calling them "warframes"? (yes I read about the cow jacket)

There are lots of things they could be doing. If that moment was the point that the Orokin were trying to make "Golems" (EG Lephantis, J3) it could have been a "Known dangerous" creature (A possible pre-cursor of the Infestation) to be investigated for stability. There is no reason to assume that the "Void channeling" part wasn't accidental but equally, once you see that the Tenno can control a known-unsafe thing where would you go from there? What if the next step was to isolate the absolute minimum elements that were needed, stabilize them and refine them. What if the only parts in a Rhino Warframe that owe anything to the Beast are techno-organic power conduits and techno-organic receiving network in the helmet? Is that more or less likely that "A Warframe Is an infested beast in armour"? I don't think you can reasonably say that "beast-in-a-suit" is more likely or supported.

In fact, given the corpus' dislike of the infestation, If that's what Alad-V found inside Warframes I doubt he's have been able to sell anything to the other Corpus board members, and I think Zanuka would look very different.

But if he was then looking at just the specific subsystems related to transference and found techno-organic material in there, I can see him experimenting with other techno-organic materials, leading to... issues like the Mutalist plotline.

IMHO the whole story-setup makes Warframes feel like machines with "Something special" not "Infested lumps, in armour", to me that is an important distinction.

And just for clarity I think I should reiterate some terms:

• Alive: Having life, which is a very low-level state, bacteria are "alive" a virus is not. definitions include some measure of reproduction
• Sapient: Capable of reason, the attribute that confers "person-ness"
• Sentient: Capable of having feelings, humans are both sentient and sapient. It could be said that some animals are sentient without being sapient.

I have no issues with Warframes being alive but I think that sapient is well out and sentient is... unlikely

Edited March 17, 2016 by SilentMobius

[SilverBones]

Natah becoming a maternal figure could also be a product of her wishing to become a fully living organism, as reproduction is one of the key aspects of life. Since she had lost that ability by heading through the void, she could only exercise that existential imperative by adopting. The Tenno were perfect candidates due to their history; tools used by the Orokin after being abandoned by them, created for a purpose they outgrew - and in that common ground, Natah (now The Lotus) had her perfect children, and it is well known that the Sentinets were experts at turning Orokin technology back on it's masters.

Given that the Warframes seem to be Tenno controlled, organic battle-platforms, it stands to reason that it was only an amount of time before the Sentients co-opted that as well. After the slaughter of the Orokin, the Tenno were meant to be destroyed, but I think the memories of Margulis had converted Natah by then and instead, they were put in safe keeping, partly to remove them from a destroyed world and also so they could be removed from the memories of the horrors they were destined to inflict.

I think the memory of Margulis - perhaps even the dreams of her - helped sway Natah into becoming her surrogate mother for the children she left behind. There is no reason to think that the Sentient - having desires, wishes and a plan of their own - would not also be capable of sharing a sense of responsibility while also pursuing a dream to become an independent life of her own.

I think the way the Sentients converted them was through the use of the long-distance Transference technology. Remember the attempted interception signal message during the loading screens when the Sentients showed up? In the Rhino codex, the beast had to be right in the same room as the Tenno before it was possessed. If they used technology to amplify that effect, then I assume it was the entry point for the Sentient Natah to take control, wait for the Orokin to claim victory after the 'death' of Hunhow, then when they were all gather in celebration, murder them all.

The Stalker was powerless because I beleive Natah - the Sentient - made him so. His story of being separated from the Tenno while they wholesale slaughtered the Orokin is most likely his broken mind trying to justify actions he was forced to do. And like an edgy, rebellious teen, he and his 'mother' do not get along and he is doing whatever he can to get back at her and his siblings.

[Yrveth]

@SilentMobius definitely not "infested lumps" but to me it seems more likely that they are part technocyte tissue, rather than being, what, robots? with just some "techno-organic" materials inside. Infested bosses keep insisting we are the same. I do think this is significant.

On the matter of Golems now, ingame texts seem to agree that the Infestation/Lephantis in particular was created as an anti-Sentient weapon. However the J3 Golem is not the same category of creature at all. Unless I missed something, it's a contemporary infested Corpus vessel, not something dating back to the days of the Empire. Probably unrelated but, "golems" are mentioned during the 2nd dream, most likely in reference to warframes* ("I know we are desperate, Executor, but these aren't Dax soldiers. These are golems possessed by devil minds.")

 

4 minutes ago, SilverBones said:

Natah becoming a maternal figure could also be a product of her wishing to become a fully living organism

... she was a fully living organism to begin with, being unable to conceive does not disqualify her from that?..

17 minutes ago, SilverBones said:

I think the memories of Margulis had converted Natah by then (...) I think the memory of Margulis - perhaps even the dreams of her - helped sway Natah

What memories or dreams of Margulis are you referring to?

[rand0mname]

Just now, SilverBones said:

Natah becoming a maternal figure could also be a product of her wishing to become a fully living organism, as reproduction is one of the key aspects of life. Since she had lost that ability by heading through the void, she could only exercise that existential imperative by adopting. The Tenno were perfect candidates due to their history; tools used by the Orokin after being abandoned by them, created for a purpose they outgrew and in that common ground. Natah (now The Lotus) had her perfect children, and it is well known that the Sentinets were experts at turning Orokin technology back on it's masters.

All this can aplly to Natah without her being connected in that way to Margulis. And it do not make it all less interesting. Even more.

But one funny detail - Sands of Inaros make it look like Tenno can make ghosts talk. This “flashbacks” seem specifically tailored for the people around you. Pretty sure that there were a lot Sand People leaving around and yet Baro hears the voice of his mother in a very specific moment. He is shaken, he is in denial and then he pleads for just one more chance to hear her voice again.

Who knows what Natah and other people did heard and seen then they interacted with Tenno. Also, could be one of the reasons why kids were called demons and why Orokin disliked them so much. Pretty sure with that long lifespan and Blue and Orange Morality they had quite a body count. Imagine hearing the people you was thinking dead and buried talking to you because of that “Tenno soma-void-resonance 'thing'”. Any reminder that Orokin was not perfect was not welcome.

Or it could be just Inaros passive ability. Then again, Second Dream flashbacks, anyone?

 

Edited March 17, 2016 by rand0mname

[rand0mname]

Just now, SilentMobius said:

IMHO the whole story-setup makes Warframes feel like machines with "Something special" not "Infested lumps, in armour", to me that is an important distinction.

And just for clarity I think I should reiterate some terms:

• Alive: Having life, which is a very low-level state, bacteria are "alive" a virus is not. definitions include some measure of reproduction
• Sapient: Capable of reason, the attribute that confers "person-ness"
• Sentient: Capable of having feelings, humans are both sentient and sapient. It could be said that some animals are sentient without being sapient.

I have no issues with Warframes being alive but I think that sapient is well out and sentient is... unlikely

Some definition of terms being used certanly helps to awoid Proto Rhino debacle. 

A question: how will you rate a Beast then?

[SilentMobius]

33 minutes ago, Belgard said:

@SilentMobius definitely not "infested lumps" but to me it seems more likely that they are part technocyte tissue, rather than being, what, robots? with just some "techno-organic" materials inside. Infested bosses keep insisting we are the same. I do think this is significant.

On the matter of Golems now, ingame texts seem to agree that the Infestation/Lephantis in particular was created as an anti-Sentient weapon. However the J3 Golem is not the same category of creature at all. Unless I missed something, it's a contemporary infested Corpus vessel, not something dating back to the days of the Empire. Probably unrelated but, "golems" are mentioned during the 2nd dream, most likely in reference to warframes* ("I know we are desperate, Executor, but these aren't Dax soldiers. These are golems possessed by devil minds.")

I still think we're going much further than we need to with the term "technocyte", it is used in only two places, once in the game and then in an ask Cephalon Cordylon article. We have no clear understanding of how it should be used, so I wouldn't apply it to anything Warframe without much more clarification.

While I prefer "tissue" to the term "flesh" that other keep using. I still think it may be a step too far, I see no reason to assume that the material isn't completely counter to our understanding of what "organic" means. After all the devs did spend a lot of devstream 10 talking about "living metal" in a manner that sounds a lot like morphics/forma so without confirmation I prefer to allow for a more general assumption along the lines of:

"It's likely that at least some material related to the infestation are used"

But that is my limit.

Examples of possibilities that sloppy terms can preclude for no reason:

• The Warframe appear to be all tech, but key parts of their systems use a "living metal" that is the basis of forma and is derived from the technocyte disease that is a superset of materials including the later infestation.
• Technocyte actually applies only to specific viral forms of a techno-organic tech that the Orokin have had for a long time.
• Technocyte is a structure that the infestation creates, however it can exist without the viral nature of the Infestation

etc etc

The point is that any of these could be "true" as far a DE is concerned and that if we care about the lore as much as we seem to we should be clear about any assumptions we make that are unsupported

Now, about the J3. First of all in the game before the launch of the "new" J3 it was explicitly an Orokin creation as were all the golems. I'm not sure that this is no longer the case. Obviously the ship is a very old Corpus one ("I would never abandon a fellow Cephalon, but, centuries adrift- have fried his -have not been kind.")  infected by the Infestation, but I don't believe that precludes the infecting agent not being a similar old-Orokin golem, after all Jordas constantly refers to "The Golem" as the infecting agent. Even though the reveal is that Jordas has been corrupted that doesn't preclude "The Golem" existing, just not longer as an entity discreet from Jordas

Edited March 17, 2016 by SilentMobius

[SilverBones]

19 minutes ago, rand0mname said:

All this can aplly to Natah without her being connected in that way to Margulis. And it do not make it all less interesting. Even more.

But one funny detail - Sands of Inaros make it look like Tenno can make ghosts talk. This “flashbacks” seem specifically tailored for the people around you. Pretty sure that there were a lot Sand People leaving around and yet Baro hears the voice of his mother in a very specific moment. He is shaken, he is in denial and then he pleads for just one more chance to hear her voice again.

Who knows what Natah and other people did heard and seen then they interacted with Tenno. Also, could be one of the reasons why kids were called demons and why Orokin disliked them so much. Pretty sure with that long lifespan and Blue and Orange Morality they had quite a body count. Imagine hearing the people you was thinking dead and buried talking to you because of that “Tenno soma-void-resonance 'thing'”. Any reminder that Orokin was not perfect was not welcome.

Or it could be just Inaros passive ability. Then again, Second Dream flashbacks, anyone?

 

You make a good point. If they experience memories or emotions through the Transference link, then there is no reason a digital consciousness who was using that link to take over the Tenno would not experience them too. I agree that Margulis may have had a huge hand in helping the Sentient Natah convert to the motherly figure of The Lotus, but I think that desire was not solely born of that. In fact the Lotus mentions that her dissatisfaction with her loss of reproduction was potentially a motivation to assume a motherly role.

[SilentMobius]

11 minutes ago, rand0mname said:

Some definition of terms being used certanly helps to awoid Proto Rhino debacle. 

A question: how will you rate a Beast then?

Depends on the beast, but if we're talking about the RPC beast I'd say:

Assuming it was acting without any form of transference up until the point at the "morgue door" I'd say that it was possible that it was sentient (Like a lion or other predator) Alternatively it could have been acting in a manner closer to bacteria, simply attacking and consuming, only alive not sentient. It's also possible that the Beast was very close to what we seem to see with the modern infestation, that is functioning very much like a cell in a larger organism, but currently deprived of that guiding intellect.

I don't think we have any way to know which that beast was at the moment.