Margulis, Natah, and the Warframes - How are they all Connected?

[SilentMobius]

40 minutes ago, friendofvampires said:

Ok, from what i remember of the lore (grain of salt, I'm no lore-hound):

Natah, Hunhow, and other sentients came from the Tau system to kill the Orokin. They were all rendered infertile. While the others made war, Natah was tasked to turn the tenno, the one thing that could effectively kill them, on their masters, the Orokin, and then kill them all. Natah in part succeeded, taking the form of Margulis, gaining the Tennos trust, and having them kill almost all of the Orokin. However, she viewed them as her children, and could not bear to kill them. To hide them from Hunhow she put them in cryo sleep and scattered them across the system. Unable to (sense/find/discover) the tenno, Hunhow went into stasis himself.

Margulis was the "Mother of the Tenno", the one who cared for the Zariman children, at one point being struck blind by one of their lashes of power. Her research lead to Transference, though it was terminated along with her, and the Zariman children were put into stasis.

Later the project was re-opened during the old war. The children channeled the void, sentients were weak to the void, perfect solution! The Orokin used their tech and bio-engineering to craft the Warframes, surrogate bodies that could withstand and channel the power of the Zariman children.

 

Various bits about:

Tau system being terraformed by sentients to get STUFF

Orokin were good at tech, but REALLY good at bio-engineering

Stalker was at the betrayal of the Orokin, wasn't put into stasis, found the operators and was driven mad by it

Grineer were a slave class

Note: there was fighting in the (Most likely) Tau system before the destruction of the Pluto rail, most likely this was before Hunhow and Natah made the journey to the Origin system

Edited March 18, 2016 by SilentMobius

[SilentMobius]

22 hours ago, rand0mname said:

One possible explanation that anything twisted so much with Infestation is refered that way. *ducks a Tonkor missle from Silent Mobius I said "possible" ;)

Hey I'm all the way down with "possible" I can discuss anything in the context of "possible" I just object to things like "Warframes are made of infested flesh" or "Warframes are sentient" or "The Stalker is an independent warframe" that's when I start spitting tacks.

This last argument about "golem" is a good example.

• We know the Orokin created discrete infested entities (Lephantis is explicitly one of those)
• We know that the J3 Golem and J-2000 Golem were previous names for the bosses that filled these slots and that they were explicitly made by the Orokin in the game history.
• Even though those have gone away, without explicit statement of retcon we must assume that they previously existed and now do not (Like the previous Nef anyo, and Vay Hek etc) within the game world. Hence there was IMHO... in the past a J-2000 golem and a J-3 Golem and they were made by the Orokin.

Does that mean that the current J3 was made by the Orokin? No, but It's possible that the thing that infected it was the earlier J3 Golem, or some other golem, or just random infestation. But the existence of the previous data has to be assumed to still be accurate for the things they referred to. Otherwise we start discarding things including events and then it's very difficult where to know to stop.

Certainly we shouldn't assume that the meaning of "Golem" has changed just because some bosses have been revamped. I don't believe DE would be so sloppy with their game-lore.

Should we use the "existence" of Golems to prove anything? No, not at all, it's an assumption, a reasonable one, but not a foundation for proof. But a valuable touch-stone if it meshes with speculation and an important point to consider is it disagrees with current speculation.

Hell even if DE decide that "Golem" no longer means anything then everything I said using the tern "Golem" stands just with the need to substitute a term. And if there was a better term I'd use it.

For example, I'm still wondering is Warframes system are all in a thin suit-like shell. I'm not trying to "prove" that position but if they were:

• Anyone "killing" a Tenno would become confused as to why the suit was empty (E.G Alad "And what I've found didn't make sense" Vor "engineers gesture wildly about nanotechnology, how reactive dissolution hides the answers" )
• If the suit was "full" they the issue of what we put in the suit would be expected to come up and it never does.
• If the things inside appeared to be "infested" surely someone would mention that?
• If the Warframe was solid all the way though surely someone would have mentioned that
• statements like "Hollow" would make much more sense if they really were.

 

 

 

[Yrveth]

4 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

"Doesn't exist then I immediately admit it does" Seriously this is getting really @(*()$ tedious

the perfectly legitimate, understandable and present-in-the-game-right-now label  ("Golem") >> does not exist.

"Golem" does not exist as a perfectly legitimate AND understandable AND present-in-the-game-right-now label.

"Golem" in-the-game-right-now exists as a name of 1 (one) boss and a vague reference, making it incoherent as a label for anything else but that one single boss. In-the-game-right-now nothing else is a "Golem". In the-game-of-the-past other things have been, and that was taken away. The beings in the game are still using the term but not in the way you are using it.

There is no suitable term to replace it with because we don't know what it entails.

It's so bizarre that the same person who was talking about the importance of using precise terms wrt proto-cow-jackets now refuses to acknowledge a documented change in the text. I guess that's as far as people around here are willing to concede when their point of view is challenged -- "you need to bring MORE PROOF of this thing you just proved, because this sufficient proof is not good enough for me".

 

43 minutes ago, friendofvampires said:

Natah in part succeeded, taking the form of Margulis

[SilentMobius]

 

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There is no suitable term to replace it with because we don't know what it entails.

 

Let me ask you: "Did operation Arid Fear happen?"

People have suggested that the victory text for that event has been superseded by the events of the second dream. If the victory condition have been invalidated then surely so has the event. That event sets up the existence of Vor and Letch Kril on Phobos.

Where do we stop?

You seem think to that that the lack of continued accessibility in the game should be interpreted as proof of the removal all related concepts from the game world.

Effectively you are asserting the negative by observing a lack of evidence.

I do not think that missing content should be take as counter-proof, IMHO it exists until invalidated, and it simply has not been.

If DE came out saying "The old J3 golem never existed, neither did the J-2000 Their story never happened" I'd be happy to stop using the term, but I don't believe the devs set up events and bosses without setting up the story context around it. If they acknowledged that the Orokin made "Golems" then that happened, until there is evidence of a retcon in that context IMHO it stands.

And on top of all of that, my original point was:

 

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may well be a result of a "backfire" in the development of the "Golems" that we now see as Lephantis, J3, etc, etc. Whatever they were made from may well have existed before that point.

 

Please note how I use "Golem", in quotes (To make it clear it was a just a label) use of "may" (because it was a possibility, not a hard correlation) notice also how I say "That we now see as"

Let me repeats that and break it down

'In the development of "golems" (Label, in-game historical identifier that still has meaning in the current game) that we now see as (that are now in that game in the form of) Lephantis, J3, etc, etc'

Sure, if you were ignorant of the history of Warframe and the previous "golem" bosses that might confuse you and I would let you off, but at no point do I state that:

"The J3 golem is an Orokin created Golem" or similar, I simply compare older terms that had an explicit meaning (and may well still do) with the current state of things, in order to be clear because, as you agreed, there is no explicit term that has replaced "golem" as it was used

Edited March 18, 2016 by SilentMobius

[friendofvampires]

1 hour ago, Belgard said:

I was pretty sure that was always part of the lore, and that was the reason she looks human. I'm not saying body possession or clone, just "normal" shapeshifting

[SilentMobius]

6 minutes ago, friendofvampires said:

I was pretty sure that was always part of the lore, and that was the reason she looks human. I'm not saying body possession or clone, just "normal" shapeshifting

All we know about Natah's form is that Hunhow said "Natah, who have you become? Does this form remind you of what you once were? " While looking like a burnt version of the Lotus, thats it, there is no further lore on the topic. Everything else is speculation

Edited March 18, 2016 by SilentMobius

[friendofvampires]

Just now, SilentMobius said:

All we know about Natah's form is that Hunhow said "Natah, who have you become? Does this form remind you of what you once were? " While looking like a burnt version of the Lotus, thats it, there is no further lore on the topic. Everything else is speculation

Fair enough, as i said, i'm no lore hound and that's just what i remembered

[Muminidas]

 I'd like to adress some points discussed here (sorry for no quotes coz thing I'd have to quote are too long and I am too lazy). 

The Sentients are no normal machines/drones - so far, all known Sentients are Hunhow and Natah, rest are still to be awakened or sth (as far as I remember). What we fight on Moon tileset are Hunhow's "shards", parts of his core or just replicas ( Sentients can divide/replicate as we know from Crewman Synthesis). Sentients are capable of having feelings what was mentioned here before, shards cannot ... but who said shards can't grow, evolve? Natah could be his shard that evolved into ... well uhh Natah, thus the name (or somehow was a being born from Hunhow's essence, we don't know the nature of the Sentients yet). Ok, my intro blabbering done! 

Natah is a full-homegrown Sentient being with a goal to accomplish in Sol system. She and by "she" I mean her "core", coz what we saw as Sentients always appear with strange forms called their "skeletons" or sth like that. So, her core/heart merged with Margulis' body. Ok, strange theory but look at our Lotus, she has a human form(or Orokin as you like to call it), human body but her helmet on the other hand... yes, her helmet looks strange, as if other being was there inside her head, instead of her brain. I believe it's safe to theorize that Natah's core merged with Marguli's body still in possesion of it's own brain and this mix brought forth our beloved Lotus. Ta dah! 

How Margulis' body was preserved long enough without brain dmg to merge with Natah? Orokin had hybernation maybe, duh. 
Why Natah merged with Margulis' body? Not sure, but I can guess it was to get more knowledge about the Tenno. 
Does Lotus share Margulis' memories? I believe yes, since she knew how much Margie did for us and how she cared about us (she tells us this at the end of 2nd dream). Although, I don't know if Lotus is the mix of Natah/Margie consciousnesses or is it just transformed Natah with Margie memories. 

Why she helps us? Well, we all know the answer, Natah wanted children, Margie loved us, Lotus is the mix, everyone's happy. 


What I want to know more than Lotus personality is:
how many other big Sentients beside Hunhow are there?
do they have some sort of a hierarchy or are they like ... all equal?


Void. This is a bit tricky thing to theorize. From what I read here so far, the "Heaven" theory fits most to it's nature. However, we could also call it some sort of Astral dimension and the so called "voices" Tenno and Vor could hear, astral beings that live outside of boundaries of our 3 dimensions, outside of boundaries of time and space (yeah, Interstellar much). It could also be some sort of Universe's core/heart that connects all systems of this universe, thus the voices are just the echos that come across from other stellar systems but it's again my irrational blabbering. 



Warframes. Well it also beats me. Something about them must be Infested/ Infestation based. Tenno/Operators have Void powers but it makes them almost paralyzed (they can't walk either due to excessive power affecting their muscles/neurons or long millenia of hybernation, in both cases it coul lead to muscle hypotrophy/atrophy). 
Warframes are biomechanical. They have to have organic element in them since from what I believe Tenno can Transfer their consciousness/power only to organic beings. Mechanical element helps to direct the Void power into specific powers (like ice, fire etc) and inhibits/stops futher grow of Infestation. Moreover, Infestation affected cells replicate like a tumour, which may also be the reason coz using of Void powers could destroy the cells each time we use powers, thus they replicate again and by this way the organic element of Warframes can regenerate it's health. I can't believe how crazy theories I can make. 

Guess it's enough of text for now, damm it's long. I can believe myslef how much of a lore-fanboy I can become sometimes. 

[rand0mname]

On 17.03.2016 at 11:56 PM, stratavar said:

The only characters that I merged were Kaleen and Margulis.

Take Ember, turn Word on Fire on and run around in Greener base. Will surviving Heavy Gunner have any connection to Kaleen? Since they will be female and burned. Nope, but I bet there were other causalities then "Void-demons" were studied. As for:

On 17.03.2016 at 11:56 PM, stratavar said:

Either way, assuming that they aren't the same person, despite having nearly identical encounters with the Tenno, caring for them as a mother, and then being involved in a situation where they did something "illegal", lets just go ahead and say that they are different people.

Only Margulis in all Origin system would try to comfort a lonely and scared child? But that's me nitpicking. I know you said that Kaleen and Margulis could be different people.

Now to the juicy part: Sentients, while capable at some emotional response, have the purpose they have been born for and are not capable to change (or want to change) that purpose without outside influence. That outside influence was an echo of Margulis. It influenced Natah while she was Void jumping. There is no way for Natah to gain that sudden desire to become mother, since it was not in her programming. Am I correct in understanding your point?

Emotions: 

Hunhow quotes. Call it bad voice acting or me reading too much into it, but he claims to love Natah, says she is capable of fear and states that his hatered is strong enougth.

Sudden desire to become a mother:

Hunhow quotes again: why something above or beyond such desire mentions "wombs in ruin" if it was not important for this creature? Now, I do not claim that Sentient wants to be a parent for the same reasons as human would. Maybe it's part of what they are and one incapable at creating new Sentients is seen as defective or limited in it's functions on the top of my head, other people may come up with other reasons... What's important - desire of Natah to become a mother was not totally alien to her.

Being unable to change or alter their goal without reprogramming:

Small starfish robots had a purpose of arriving to Tau, terraforming a planet, building a Relay. I am sure going at war with Orokin was not part of a plan. But they did. You may say that it was a different "generation" and individual Sentient is not capable to alter a program... But looks like Natah is not the first one to become "riven", since Hunhow knows what will happen to her - "reclaiming". Which he see as something that he would want to protect her from. Also, being able to adapt is one of the Sentient core traits. Who says that with enough new data Sentient can not get a new goal by itself?

If Natah had that sudden desire to cuddle all Tenno after the Void jump, I would say it's not possible at all without yes, brainwashing. But she done all that she was born for - and stopped at the last sequence. And I bet that took some time. Which would give her the opportunity to get to know Tenno and become protective of them (yes, Hunhow quote again) without Margulis whispering in her... "head"?

I am not telling that Sentients are humans, far from it. But they are not machines that have only one goal.

Edited March 18, 2016 by rand0mname
Typosssss

[Yrveth]

3 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

People have suggested that the victory text for that event has been superseded by the events of the second dream.

Is that the "Every time we tear a Tenno corpse from its metal womb" text? If so then it still works, the 2nd dream does not invalidate it. If not you'd need to elaborate.

3 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

You seem think to that that the lack of continued accessibility in the game should be interpreted as proof of the removal all related concepts from the game world.

Once the "related concepts" have nothing to be related to, then they lose their referential value. But are you implying the absence of the big red runner (legacy J3 Golem) is "lack of continued accessibility"?.. I did say before that I want limited time content to be relevant (in addition to becoming unlimited time content :^) but that refers to events, not reworked content. The changes to J3 and J2000 are reworks. J3 Golem eventually became the (J3) Jordas Golem. It shares the name, but not the lore, of the old boss.

Consider for example Sgt. Nef Anyo -- does this character still exist? Currently we have the unnamed Sergeant on Venus, and Nef Anyo of the Corpus Board of Directors (not on Venus). Would you say they are the same character? Is their lore interchangeable?

Well I may be ignorant of the history of Warframe, but saying

3 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

at no point do I state that:

"The J3 golem is an Orokin created Golem" or similar

when

11 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

it's a label, one for specific entities created by the Orokin to fight in the Old War

and

19 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

Certainly "Golem" when referring to Infested entities that were explicitly created by the Orokin seems to remain as a concept.

is not something I am confused about. Anyway technically it doesn't matter if you rephrase it as

3 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

'In the development of "golems" (Label, in-game historical identifier that still has meaning in the current game) that we now see as (that are now in that game in the form of) Lephantis, J3, etc, etc'

because you're still doing that thing where you're ignoring new lore in favour of outdated lore. Other than that? Yeah. Cool. Nice proposal. Unifies infestation and warframes. I'm here for it.

[stratavar]

18 hours ago, rand0mname said:

Take Ember, turn Word on Fire on and run around in Greener base. Will surviving Heavy Gunner have any connection to Kaleen? Since they will be female and burned. Nope, but I bet there were other causalities then "Void-demons" were studied. As for:

Only Margulis in all Origin system would try to comfort a lonely and scared child? But that's me nitpicking. I know you said that Kaleen and Margulis could be different people.

Now to the juicy part: Sentients, while capable at some emotional response, have the purpose they have been born for and are not capable to change (or want to change) that purpose without outside influence. That outside influence was an echo of Margulis. It influenced Natah while she was Void jumping. There is no way for Natah to gain that sudden desire to become mother, since it was not in her programming. Am I correct in understanding your point?

Emotions: 

Hunhow quotes. Call it bad voice acting or me reading too much into it, but he claims to love Natah, says she is capable of fear and states that his hatered is strong enougth.

Sudden desire to become a mother:

Hunhow quotes again: why something above or beyond such desire mentions "wombs in ruin" if it was not important for this creature? Now, I do not claim that Sentient wants to be a parent for the same reasons as human would. Maybe it's part of what they are and one incapable at creating new Sentients is seen as defective or limited in it's functions on the top of my head, other people may come up with other reasons... What's important - desire of Natah to become a mother was not totally alien to her.

Being unable to change or alter their goal without reprogramming:

Small starfish robots had a purpose of arriving to Tau, terraforming a planet, building a Relay. I am sure going at war with Orokin was not part of a plan. But they did. You may say that it was a different "generation" and individual Sentient is not capable to alter a program... But looks like Natah is not the first one to become "riven", since Hunhow knows what will happen to her - "reclaiming". Which he see as something that he would want to protect her from. Also, being able to adapt is one of the Sentient core traits. Who says that with enough new data Sentient can not get a new goal by itself?

If Natah had that sudden desire to cuddle all Tenno after the Void jump, I would say it's not possible at all without yes, brainwashing. But she done all that she was born for - and stopped at the last sequence. And I bet that took some time. Which would give her the opportunity to get to know Tenno and become protective of them (yes, Hunhow quote again) without Margulis whispering in her... "head"?

I am not telling that Sentients are humans, far from it. But they are not machines that have only one goal.

You certainly love to kick up dust after a part of the conversation is put well in the past.  Ember didn't exist at that point - duh.

Most people were naturally afraid of the Tenno that even knew about their existence.
Few people would've ever had a chance to have an interaction with them.
 

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But that's me nitpicking. I know you said that Kaleen and Margulis could be different people.

And please enlighten me why you bothered to tear into something the way you did, rather than noting my statement beforehand if I made the statement already that it was entirely possible that they were?

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Emotions: 

Hunhow quotes. Call it bad voice acting or me reading too much into it, but he claims to love Natah, says she is capable of fear and states that his hatered is strong enougth.

If they gained Sentience along the way during their time in Tau, then yes.  Development of Emotions, or something resembling them, would be entirely plausible as well.

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There is no way for Natah to gain that sudden desire to become mother, since it was not in her programming.

Wrong.  I never said it was IMPOSSIBLE.  I simply said it was improbable.  It seems more difficult for me to believe that an alien being with a design and intent from the very beginning to stray from said intent and design.  The 4 F's are pretty strong drives for human beings.  If Sentients were made in a way that they felt a similar compelling drive to complete their "sequence" as Hunhow and Natah call it, then I would expect it to be a fairly strong desire.  But it may just be me interpreting the use of this "sequence" word wrongly.  But at the same time, considering that the Sentients are indeed machine-like in origin, then a sequence which would have to do with their programming would make some sense.  And as a note, the word sequence isn't a one-off.  It was used 3 or 4 times in such a short conversation from both Hunhow and Natah.  Seems kind of important.

I still think it is important to remember that we don't have anything locked down as to how they procreate.  It could be something where they bump uglies and have maternal emotions involving their offspring, but we also have the Detron Crewman Synthesis that suggests at the very beginning, it was something resembling Mitosis.  If you could split off something that looks and sounds like you with a near-identical level of intelligence, would you think of it as your child?  I would personally think "Oh man i have a clone now.  Ok man, you play games while I work around the house, and in 3 hours, we'll switch and do the same.  We're gonna get so much s*** done now!"

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But looks like Natah is not the first one to become "riven", since Hunhow knows what will happen to her - "reclaiming".

While that certainly has a stance, it doesn't necessarily mean that it has happened.  Good coding is coding that that ties off loose ends.  If the Sentients think like good coders, then that means they essentially expect the unexpected.  It's entirely possible that they had a contingency in place in the event that a Sentient betrayed them.  I mean look, the Orokin betrayed them, and they split from the Orokin, willing to even fight them.  All it takes is a second to think "What if other Sentients do that to us?"  And I am interested in what this "Reclaiming" that Hunhow mentioned means as well.  Maybe just breaking them down for materials to rebuild?  Even a "reset" event that returns them to an "older version"?  That would prove catastrophic for us if they ever got their hands on Natah.

If another Sentient did betray them, and it was the First Betrayal of the Sentients, then that could make a good story as well that we could delve into in lore passages along the way.

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Almost all that being said here is pure speculation, without ANY sunstantional evidence. Nothing is set in stone till Devs say it. But, some speculations are more plausible then the others. You posted your idea on forum and what you expected? That everyone will agree with you? The fact that people are here is a prove that is an intersting topic to some and if not everyone is: "OMG, you are a rigth" is not a reason to not be respectfull.

It is speculation.  What I'm expecting is a discussion that has more of a basis than "You're wrong because tropes are bad and my idea is a trope that is a better trope than your trope but only really because I like my trope more and it has nothing to do with two tropes being compared on a quantifiable level(because that's not really possible to begin with)".  I used the word trope once(not even in my original post), and somehow, somebody got caught up on it and bothered to make a multi-response forum based on a single word, and still continues to do so.  I continually asked for debunking, and just got this response that can be boiled down to "Free will is good, you take it away, that's bad" despite never at any point saying that it was literally impossible for Natah to do this on her own.  I'm simply arguing my stance that it would be much less likely to happen for her, since she descended from machines that followed code.  My biggest problem with this argument is that all i get is a stone-wall that refuses to believe the possibility that Sentients MIGHT not be human, while I continue to entertain the idea that they could be, but still bring what little evidence exists against it.

Your argument as to "why does everything have to be connected" leaves room for near-endless possibilities.  That makes more sense argumentatively than saying "I don't like your idea."  Naturally, I don't have much of a retort for your argument, because it is entirely possible that it is the truth.

[rand0mname]

3 hours ago, stratavar said:

And please enlighten me why you bothered to tear into something the way you did, rather than noting my statement beforehand if I made the statement already that it was entirely possible that they were?

Partly because you had no trouble tearing into others posts the way you did ;)

Partly to see what your answer for somewhat stretched idea will be. You did took it like I was claiming that Ember was existing at that time, not the: “It's no surprising if Zariman kids hurt many – with their inability to control their powers and Orokin studying them. It's like having Ember's with her 4th firing randomly without ability to turn it on and off at will. One of the possible things for your Operator to say in end of the Second Dream: “We were dangerous, broken. Everytime they tried to fix us, someone always got hurt." 

It took me some time and several posts from you to understand why you come up with the reprogramming idea. I think. Maybe I do not get it at all still. Well, none of us are mind-readers, so it's no surprise that others unable to get your point and that you can not do the same.

I certainly would like to chat about how alien Lotus can be (think I mentioned several times that in my headcanon she is NOT a human), hell, I bemoan the fate of Geth from Mass Effect series and would probably drag them into the conversation...

But it will be kicking up the dust I guess :(

[Yrveth]

5 hours ago, stratavar said:

What I'm expecting is a discussion that has more of a basis than "You're wrong because tropes are bad and

@ me next time it's free. 

I argued from that point because, to the very first person who replied to your thread in disagreement, you responded on the basis of "this is wrong because tropes are bad and" etc. in addition to making claims that are not firmly rooted in canon and further being unwilling to discuss the premises upon which you base your claims.

The more you post though, the more convinced I become that your insistence on "programming" wrt Sentients comes from the Crewman synthesis where they are referred to machines. Theory and philosophy on what constitutes a machine aside, in that very entry, the possibility of these creatures betraying their creators was already discussed. That alone should be an argument enough about their having a free will, even in their initial form.

How they procreate is hardly important. We have already witnessed within the game a conversation between a Sentient and its offspring, one that very heavily implies filial piety as a characteristic of Sentient relationships. It is irrelevant whether they experience love the same way humans do. Emotions are subjective. Even between humans they are not experienced the same way and are not comparable.What's important is that we have shared, relatable concepts.

So from there, the claim that

6 hours ago, stratavar said:

it would be much less likely to happen for her, since she descended from machines that followed code

is not grounded in canon. It is grounded in your flawed reading of canon only. Since you started throwing around academic terms early on i assumed you have some background in analysis and, obviously, incorrectly assumed you would be aware that literary texts do not exist in a vacuum. I now realize it was a mistake to bring up literary arguments about your theory.

 

1 hour ago, rand0mname said:

I certainly would like to chat about how alien Lotus can be

You first! (in case tone does not translate, I say this in a genuinely curious way)

[stratavar]

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Partly because you had no trouble tearing into others posts the way you did ;)

I'm not asking necessarily as to your moral interest, as much as I'm asking as to logical interest, if the evidence was literally in the same post where a counterargument existed.  You doing so hints towards ulterior motive beyond the interest of discussing lore.

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Partly to see what your answer for somewhat stretched idea will be. You did took it like I was claiming that Ember was existing at that time, not the: “It's no surprising if Zariman kids hurt many – with their inability to control their powers and Orokin studying them. It's like having Ember's with her 4th firing randomly without ability to turn it on and off at will. One of the possible things for your Operator to say in end of the Second Dream: “We were dangerous, broken. Everytime they tried to fix us, someone always got hurt." 

Looking at the Rhino Prime Codex entry, it was fairly clear that few ever knew about the Tenno.  Beyond the "High Council" or whatever you want to call them, and a select few scientists, then we are fairly limited with who i could possibly be at that point.  Well beyond the point is that even with Kaleen and Margulis being separate people, it is clear that Margulis was afflicted by the Tenno.  One of the Operator dialogues confirms that Margulis was afflicted and blinded by the Tenno.  Barking up the Kaleen = Margulis Tree is like putting a boot on the wrong car to tow a vehicle off.  I've already stated that I'm fine with either character being or not being the same person.  I did indeed include the possibility that they were one in the same, but mainly due to error.  It wouldn't be the first time that lore went and got revised after a good year or 2 of existing on the back-burner.

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It took me some time and several posts from you to understand why you come up with the reprogramming idea. I think. Maybe I do not get it at all still. Well, none of us are mind-readers, so it's no surprise that others unable to get your point and that you can not do the same.

If you're talking about Sentients having emotions and being human-like, I can completely understand the point.  I'm simply offering another possibility.  If DE opts for saying that Margulis has nothing to do with this, and Natah did in fact make the decision on her own, while I'll be somewhat disappointed to see the Margulis's Last Wish Theory go, it won't by any means blow my brain right out of my eyesockets.

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I certainly would like to chat about how alien Lotus can be (think I mentioned several times that in my headcanon she is NOT a human), hell, I bemoan the fate of Geth from Mass Effect series and would probably drag them into the conversation...

I unfortunately haven't played the Mass Effect games, but I glanced at the Wiki to understand an outline of the Geth.  Most of their outcomes do seem rather dreadful.

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But it will be kicking up the dust I guess :(

If you want to give input towards a topic, feel free.  If you're interjecting into an argument that has moved well past the point of reference, then it generally doesn't do much unless you bring a different perspective.  I was feeling that your input didn't bring new directive to the argument(specifically talking about the part involving Margulis and Kaleen) as it had already been discussed that whether or not they were the same person, neither point could make the vessel take on water.

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I argued from that point because, to the very first person who replied to your thread in disagreement, you responded on the basis of "this is wrong because tropes are bad and" etc. in addition to making claims that are not firmly rooted in canon and further being unwilling to discuss the premises upon which you base your claims.

The very first response to my post brushed the content of my post aside in a fashion that left me with the impression that they simply didn't care to actually have a productive conversation.  They gave an argument that touched on the points that suggest the Sentients are a PRODUCT of something, and never really bothered to convey the idea of emotions, other than emotions of human beings themselves.  I retorted in a way that said it would be less foolish to expect them to have differing values.

Spoiler

Not this whole ghost of Margulis again...

The sentients where made to be livingterraformers, sent to the tau system to pave the way and construct a rail gate.... They did it then wanted to return home.

The Orokin being the pricks they were already thought ahead and had engineered a flaw which destroyed their ability to reproduce if they used the rails to traverse thevoid and thus kicked off the war.

 

Now have you ever met a woman who found out they can never have kids?

They get stupidly maternal over children and adopt them..... Or become the crazy cat lady.

We're a little bit of both.

It talked about how there's no way I could understand maternal instincts, in which I responded just how I responded to you.  I basically asked "How can you be certain that these advanced beings can have morals that align so readily with ours?"

Spoiler

Now have you ever met a Sentient being well beyond our level of intelligence, capable of continually adapting the entirety of their being to resist nearly all forms of external damage, created for the sole purpose of a single mission to eradicate the people that basically betrayed them from the start?  Expecting a being like that to want to be a mother is honestly more far-fetched than somebody essentially brainwashing her into it.

Spoiler

We've only run into two in game,  Hunhow and Natah (aka space mom)

The other things you are thinking of are merely shards or drones of Hunhow, and yes they are quite focused on their singular job.

But Natah is his daughter or child a full separate thinking entity like you orI and not a drone.I

My response, basically repeating the same thing.

Spoiler

You're really implying that these things that are basically highly functioning computers with biomechanical structures can be reasoned into a category that suggests that they're totally morally and intellectually comparable to a human being?  I would expect DE to take a more complex route honestly than just "feelings made it so".  Seems too much of a trope.  If it hasn't hit you yet,  I think I-Robot was a bad movie.

Besides, we don't know how they reproduce, other than what seems to be some obscure evidence from the Detron Crewman Synthesis that suggests mitosis is the closest thing to what we observe here in our world.  Expecting a "normal" Father-Daughter relationship from that is kinda.....weird to begin with.

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The more you post though, the more convinced I become that your insistence on "programming" wrt Sentients comes from the Crewman synthesis where they are referred to machines. Theory and philosophy on what constitutes a machine aside, in that very entry, the possibility of these creatures betraying their creators was already discussed. That alone should be an argument enough about their having a free will, even in their initial form.

My insistence actually comes from most of the content from the Natah Quest.  Hunhow and Lotus both refer to this "Sequence" multiple times.  For the fact that it referred to the same thing multiple times, and was talked about in a way that made it seem very important, I assumed that it was used in more of a literal sense, comparable to Programming.  A Sequence is an order of commands.  They are performed in a very particular order, where the contents and outcomes of past parts of the Sequence ultimately affect future parts.  A Computer sits and waits for the current part of the Sequence to be filled, and then it moves on to the next.  When the Sequence is over, the Program is terminated.  If an action deviates from the Sequence, it will generally create either fatal errors or vastly unreliable values.

All of that aside, I honestly thought there was more that actually confirmed a "compelling desire" to complete the Sequence in the Natah quest.  I went back and watched a play-through, but there wasn't anything concrete.  I apologize for that, as it's been quite a while since I completed the quest.

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How they procreate is hardly important. We have already witnessed within the game a conversation between a Sentient and its offspring, one that very heavily implies filial piety as a characteristic of Sentient relationships. It is irrelevant whether they experience love the same way humans do. Emotions are subjective. Even between humans they are not experienced the same way and are not comparable.What's important is that we have shared, relatable concepts.

Actually it would be still very important.  The maternal instincts and actions of a human parent aren't just because of hormones.  A parent-child bond heavily drives our interest as humans to procreate in this modern setting.  If that bond did not exist between two individuals, but those individuals acted as a typical parent-child group, most people would question that heavily if they knew that those two individuals lacked an actual bond.

Think of how many individuals with biological parents refuse to make contact with their parents if they've lived a good portion of their lifetime without them.  The lack of their parent-child bond is the main contributor in these situations.  It would be somewhat unexpected if they weren't somewhat hesitant or taken aback when asked to meet them.  What about the millions of dollars that have been funneled to research the potential effects of single parenthood?  Lacking role models?  Limited social interaction and a lack of moral and ethical expectations?  These factors very heavily affect developing children.  Suddenly these factors don't matter, but there's a construct of filial piety?

If Natah and Hunhow actually have a bond that suggests filial piety, then suddenly, it would be expected that many other maternal and familial values would be present as well.  So simply put, if they do actually reproduce through mitosis, or even ANY possible form of reproduction that would suggest a lack of a maturity process, but have these values, that's certainly detracts from this model of a character-type that supposedly resembles humans in their values.

You're suddenly wanting to drive this point that we cannot fully comprehend all of their emotional attributes.  Huh....could've sworn I was suggesting the same thing.  Even with shared, relatable concepts, we cannot just assume that suddenly every aspect of our emotions is comparable to theirs, which hinders your points just as much as it does mine.

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is not grounded in canon. It is grounded in your flawed reading of canon only

Feel free to bring me hard concrete "canon" that directly debunks this if you're going to call my reading "flawed", since to be flawed, then that suggests there is some "truth" somewhere.  Is my reading flawed because you disagree with it?  Or do you really know something that the rest of us don't?  Unless of course you know somebody at DE who writes the lore, and I'd love it if you could set me up with a meeting.

Really though, how much is ACTUALLY grounded in canon?  Where is it thoroughly grounded in canon that sentients have maternal interests that are exactly like humans?  And that this theory is just totally wrong?  There isn't jack-diddly-squat really.  I'm bringing what little exists to the table.  The fact that I'm bringing up a theory that does indeed make assumptions about the possibilities in the Warframe universe would suggest that I don't actually believe literary texts exist in a vacuum.  The fact of the matter is though, that when brought such little evidence about this universe, then you need to remember that nearly any assumption you make, whether it be based on character values, traits, social constructs, or even universal and subjective truths could be turned on their head with the introduction of a single line of text.  Again - bring me evidence - I change my mind.  Fairly simple concept.

[Necromanrius]

To think I missed this gem of a topic so long... let me try making a worthy contribution...

Before anything, I gotta ask about that changed lore about the Golems and Zanuka. I never actually heard of that change, and back when I did Jupiter runs there was very little doubt what Zanuka was made of (does it mean the Zanuka Hunter no longer captures you if he wins?? I haven't see him in over a year at least). That feels like a rather large retcon, if that's what DE did. Was there any official statement about it?

 

About the discussions of how Natah became the Lotus (and the possibility of Margulis' involvement)

I do certainly hope you Tenno are having fun with your jabs and arguments, I for one have enjoyed reading through them a lot. Might be how physicists at CERN feel when they accelerate those particles, collide them and watch the results. Would really be a shame if you people didn't manage to get the same satisfaction from your debates.

 

Though, since we mention the Sentients. They were originally sent to the Tau system. What happened to it? and to the Sentients there? While it's said over and over that we've defeated the Sentients, Hunhow is still alive, and there's no news from that sector. I haven't noticed any lore that would shed some light on that subject. Of course, if my question is beyond the scope of this topic and may derail it, feel free to tell me off.

 

Now, let me try to contribute something of my own...

What we do know so far is : There was the Zariman 10 0 'incident', leading to children with Void powers but no control over them.

Margulis, who cared for the children, figured out about how dream can be used to channel their powers, and silence the voices, whatever those voices is. May be the same ghostly voices we heard during Second dream and Inaros' Quest? if so, does it mean our control has waned a little?

Also, Margulis' favourite flower it the lotus flower, thus the design for the reservoir and the somatic links. And most likely the origin of Natah's new name.

Meanwhile, another experiment to create super soldiers didn't really go as planned. But one accident led to discovery that these beast could be controlled by those dreaming children, leading to transference.

How much of it happened before the Sentient war and how much happened during it? The only thing I'm pretty sure of, Natah came into the picture after all these events, since the Warframes were turning the tides of war against the Sentients when they decided to 'sabotage' the Warframes.

The sterile part also confuses me. I mean, Void is supposed to be a poison to the Sentients, something they cannot adapt to, thus their only weakness and the reason for our victory. Then how did Natah adapt, becoming sterile is hardly debilitating, for a soldier unit at least, and she hid the Moon in the void too. Does it mean She's a Sentient that can use the Void somehow? Or that tech can adapt to the Void? Wouldn't that mean the Sentients could therefore do so as well, thus invalidating their only weakness?? I may be getting off topic, but, maybe There's more to Natah's change to the Lotus than just a change of heart. She might not even be fullly Sentient anymore, thus Void doesn't affect her like it affects normal Sentients? Just food for thought here...

[Yrveth]

14 hours ago, stratavar said:

Is my reading flawed because you disagree with it?

I disagree with it because it is flawed, not the other way around. Stuff like this --

14 hours ago, stratavar said:

I honestly thought there was more that actually confirmed a "compelling desire" to complete the Sequence in the Natah quest.  I went back and watched a play-through, but there wasn't anything concrete.

If you only "read" the text once -- and it's hard to call it reading considering how these dialogues come up in the game, often when we're focused on actually playing -- and never revisit it, you're likely to end up with a version of it in your head that is not the same as the original.

So when I talk about grounding theories in canon, I mean grounding them in what the text actually says, and also, not contradicting what the text actually says.

For what it's worth though, you may have been thinking about one of Hunhow's transmissions early in the 2nd dream? "The Tenno hive has corrupted your precepts". Which is an interesting line and could be used to some extent to support your theory. But if you want to go from there please keep in mind that we know very little about what precepts actually are, and the little we know includes that they are not absolute.

On the matter of "Sequence", I as a person with no background in programming, didn't consider it a reference to that. But similar to your explanation of what it means in programming context, to the best of my knowledge, the general use of the word is the same - a particular order in which things are done. The meaning of Hunhow's dialogue doesn't change regardless of how it's interpreted. But there does seem to be a trend in the lore texts to use words and expressions in reference to the Sentients that make them sound ambiguously like automatons.

14 hours ago, stratavar said:

Actually it would be still very important.  The maternal instincts and actions of a human parent aren't just because of hormones.  A parent-child bond heavily drives our interest as humans to procreate in this modern setting.  If that bond did not exist between two individuals, but those individuals acted as a typical parent-child group, most people would question that heavily if they knew that those two individuals lacked an actual bond.

I am uncertain what constitutes "a typical parent-child group" or acting as one, but it's likely that this kind of relationship can actually exist between people who aren't related in this way. Have you heard the expression "he was like a father to me"? Conversely, individuals who don't share such emotional bond but act like they do probably stand to gain something from it. But does that apply to Hunhow and Natah? I don't see how. Skipping the next paragraph because I don't see how it's relevant (in the context of this discussion), sorry, and then 

14 hours ago, stratavar said:

If Natah and Hunhow actually have a bond that suggests filial piety, then suddenly, it would be expected that many other maternal and familial values would be present as well.  So simply put, if they do actually reproduce through mitosis, or even ANY possible form of reproduction that would suggest a lack of a maturity process, but have these values, that's certainly detracts from this model of a character-type that supposedly resembles humans in their values.

You are saying, "if nothing necessitates filial piety but they still act it out, then that concept is no longer relatable because it's not caused by the same that causes it in our society"? That's a good argument especially in the context of them being aliens and thus not the same as us, but I am not sure how much it materially changes anything, notwithstanding that filial piety is respect towards those who brought you into the world. 

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Natah, why did you betray me? Why did you not finish the sequence you started? Why did you stop at the last? We crossed the gap, wombs in ruin, to bring an end to this. We severed the worlds, let them destroy me, why is the sequence not complete? My own daughter. The last of my womb. How can you do this? You betrayed us. As I awake, so will they. They will say you're riven and want to reclaim you. I will not be able to stop them.

This is Hunhow's speech at the end of the Natah quest. The first bolded section puts Hunhow's disbelief at least partially in the context of Natah being his child. Not only did she betray her people, but her own parent -- implying there is a different, more special bond or relationship between parents and their children even among the Sentients, regardless of the way parenthood is realized. The second bolded section implies Hunhow would like to prevent the others from punishing Natah/Lotus - despite her betrayal, he is still concerned with her well-being.

14 hours ago, stratavar said:

You're suddenly wanting to drive this point that we cannot fully comprehend all of their emotional attributes.  Huh....could've sworn I was suggesting the same thing.  Even with shared, relatable concepts, we cannot just assume that suddenly every aspect of our emotions is comparable to theirs, which hinders your points just as much as it does mine.

I am fine with this last part. But I don't think we're suggesting the same thing exactly. I am saying that even if they are not the same as us, that doesn't mean we can't understand their motivations. What you're saying is more like, even if they appear superficially similar to us, they are not the same, so we can't understand their motivations. And I have a problem with this stance above all from a storytelling point of view because I don't believe the genre of Warframe is Lovecraftian horror. Not saying it's a bad genre, it has many charms, but in my experience Warframe lore tries to explain everything, characters talk a lot about their motivations and give a lot of background information (eg Hunhow had no reason to explain their history to his own daughter, that was all for our benefit) so it's easy to conclude that we're meant to be able to understand these motivations.

So going back real quick to this argument

On 17/03/2016 at 10:00 AM, stratavar said:

Expecting a being like that to want to be a mother is honestly more far-fetched than somebody essentially brainwashing her into it.

am I correct to understand that you meant we can't expect her to "want to be a mother" in the same way "humans want to be mothers"? If so we'd be more or less on the same page but your theory in the OP is not about differences between ours and Sentient society, it's a build-up towards "Natah could not have wanted to save the Tenno, someone else put her up to it (it was Margulis)" and that's what I'm arguing against here. I believe Natah didn't need the sort of outside influence that would qualify as "brainwashing" to want to save the Tenno.

In that regard, I want to talk about the closing lines of the Natah quest. When asked what made her reject her mission/nature, the Lotus replies

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All missions to the Origin system required a sacrifice. Me and my kind became barren when crossing the gap. It is the one flaw that we never overcame.

Regardless of how parenthood is experienced and realized among these aliens, she gave this explanation. Becoming unable to reproduce is the root of her betrayal. Then the following exchange takes place

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Teshin: Natah wanted children of her own.
Lotus: Natah was the daughter until I destroyed her. Now I am the Lotus. Now I am the mother.

To me it is interesting that she doesn't say "yes I wanted children". Her answer is more akin to "I didn't want to be a child". So from these lines I take it that she wanted to be in the societal position of a parent, rather than that of a child. Of course one can't be a parent without having children but it's not necessary to actually birth them (regardless of how we call the exact biological process of Sentient reproduction) and it was probably her work with the Tenno that made her realize that even though she can no longer produce offspring, she could still be "a parent".

But being a parent and carrying out her mission were incompatible. If she destroyed the Tenno, her children would be gone, and she wouldn't be a parent anymore. Not only that but she would return to her people where she would again be a child (belong to the category of not-parents). So she rejected not only her mission but her very nature and identity.

As to what being a parent means to the Sentients, we could probably speculate. The Lotus shows a lot of concern for the well-being of the Tenno, but as per the above quote of Hunhow, that is not foreign to the species. And as much as I don't want to bring up feelings (eww!) into this, realizing that she had come to genuinely care about the Tenno's well-being could have played part in realizing that she was now "like a parent" to them. In addition to that, she sends the Tenno to fight for her cause, much like her father who was a warlord. 

You may still claim it is this "coming to care genuinely about them" that must have been Margulis's ghost's work and if that's the case I have no more words to argue except the dreaded "it's not grounded in canon" J

14 hours ago, stratavar said:

Again - bring me evidence - I change my mind.  Fairly simple concept.

Simple but impossible. You can only change your own mind. Like earlier you admitted you revisited the text and found you had wrongly remembered something - you brought the evidence to yourself and changed your own mind.

 

3 hours ago, Necromanrius said:

I gotta ask about that changed lore about the Golems and Zanuka. I never actually heard of that change,

Do you mean this post about Zanuka? If so, that is just an example of a hypothetical retcon. It is not something that actually happened. It was a question - if they did that change that invalidates and contradicts current lore, would we treat it as "historical" truth? Or stubbornly refuse to accept it altogether? 

3 hours ago, Necromanrius said:

Though, since we mention the Sentients. They were originally sent to the Tau system. What happened to it? and to the Sentients there? While it's said over and over that we've defeated the Sentients, Hunhow is still alive, and there's no news from that sector. I haven't noticed any lore that would shed some light on that subject. Of course, if my question is beyond the scope of this topic and may derail it, feel free to tell me off.

It appears that the Old War was mostly(?) fought in their system rather than ours (Hidden Messages okay this is ambiguous and could be the other way around, but at least according to the Mag codex) and I'm unsure how many Sentients besides Hunhow and Natah came to the Origin system. In light of the Natah quest though, it seems that the defeat of the Sentients may not have been what it seemed like, considering Hunhow's destruction was apparently part of their plan. Hunhow also says they "severed the worlds" which is probably reference to the destruction of the Solar Rail (the ingame description of Pluto reads "The shattered Outer Terminus of the Solar Rail Network is located here. The Corpus work to rebuild it.") and without the Rail, the Tau system is inaccessible so technically we have no idea what the Sentients are doing there. 

3 hours ago, Necromanrius said:

How much of it happened before the Sentient war and how much happened during it? The only thing I'm pretty sure of, Natah came into the picture after all these events, since the Warframes were turning the tides of war against the Sentients when they decided to 'sabotage' the Warframes.

I believe this assumption is correct. As for your question, there was some discussion of the timeline on the first page I think but it seems that right now we don't know. The lore is pretty vague.

The Operator says the Zariman 10-0 was to jump to the Tau system. If so, then the Tenno came into existence after the Sentients had completed the Rail, but possibly before the war started? After all it makes little sense to send a colony ship (assuming that's what it was) into a war zone. On the other hand, the Ember codex says the Zariman had her accident on the way to the "Outer Gates" which I assumed means the Outer Terminus at Pluto. But perhaps the "Outer Gates" are at Tau. If it's the same ship, then they should be.

As for Natah and the Void, that's an interesting issue. At the very least, Natah is not special in this aspect - Hunhow confirms they both suffered the same way, and if any other Sentients travelled with them, then they did as well ("We crossed the gap, wombs in ruin"). During the 2nd dream the Lotus insists that the Sentient fighters cannot follow us into the Void, and Hunhow says it is forbidden to their kind. So it doesn't seem they are any closer to overcoming that, even after travelling through the Void once. For what it's worth, the Lotus doesn't seem to have been on the hidden Moon, and when she visited our ship, it wasn't hidden in the Void regardless of what Ordis keeps promising.

It may be that when Perintol said the Void would destroy his creation, he meant that they would die out. After all if they all travelled back to the Origin System and became infertile, their species would soon become extinct. That said we could argue that travelling through the Rail is almost instantaneous so they were exposed to the Void very briefly and it only poisoned them "a little bit". Any longer and they would probably die. What do you think? You can't just observe the discussion, it's a lot more fun if you join in :^

Edited March 20, 2016 by Belgard
typos & stuff

[rand0mname]

*Crawls out of the Void and almost makes a rude gesture at Baro. I am the only one who is going to complain about 4-5 mods per visit? Ohhhh, new stuff in my favorite topic! And I am too brain dead to respond on a level :(

Hello again, Tenno! Welcome, to the wall of text club Necromanrius :) Worry not, while we do sit around a campfire, we do not try to roast each other over it. I think?

And now, to the talks:

Lotus was always a mystery. Now at least we know she is a Sentient. And this is some certainty and we can confuse each other on a lesser scale ^^ Here we have a theory that presents her as being of a logic (mostly), governed by the reason d'etre and definitely not human-like at all. A question if the morals of human are actually had to be applied to her also was asked. And here where the Geth from ME come:

The reason I brought up them up is because that Geth are a take on the “software species” and they (or it) do not want to be human at all. But they also are not hostile or dismissive.

"How I wrote Legion (and EDI) came from sitting down and thinking about how a "real" machine intelligence free of glandular distractions, subjective perceptions/mental blocks, and philosophical angst (fear of death, "why am I here?") would view the world. Star Trek was a minor inspiration, though in the negative -- I didn't want the Geth to be either the Borg ("You are different, so we will absorb/destroy you") or Data ("I am different, so I want to be you").

I believe emotions in "life as we know it" are largely a product of chemical processes in the meat brain; hormones, pheromones, adrenaline, etc. So from my perspective, while organic life may evolve without responses akin to emotions, electronic life cannot evolve with responses akin to emotions.

In humans, the chemical processes in our bodies are involuntary and influence our higher cognitive processes. In other words, our "hardware" has a degree of control over our "software." In an electronic intelligence, hardware is simply a conduit that passes input on to cognitive decision making software to be analyzed. A microphone doesn't flinch from a loud noise.”

Cris L'Etolie on Geth and AI.

His view on AI have something in common with the way stratavar talks about Sentients. And my objections came not because I do not understand that expecting Sentients to be humanlike is a big stretch. They came from a way we seen how Hunhow and Lotus acted in game. There are hints that they are not the beings of pure logic, even if they use terms like "precept" or "sequence".  Why a being of pure logic, "thinking" in numbers and programmed to fulfill a specific goal have to worry about Natah and not just arrive to conclusion: she is "riven", so she have to be "reclaimed" and in the meanwhile we go on with the Plan B. I think, that if Hunhow was as focused on his mission as Natah was supposed to be before Void jump in the stratavar original post - he would not try to spare his seed from a future her "shamefull" actions will bring. No matter how catastrofic for her (and us) it may be.

15 hours ago, stratavar said:

I was feeling that your input didn't bring new directive to the argument (specifically talking about the part involving Margulis and Kaleen) as it had already been discussed that whether or not they were the same person, neither point could make the vessel take on water.

Ehhh, I would say that it is important. While we are talking about where to place Lotus on a scale of "Human/Star Fish Alien/Biorobot/AI/something else" now, your original post is full of information and is a foundation of TL:DR in the end. Margulis and Kaleen do influence directly the time-line. Since we all try to be logical here and managed to misunderstood each other several times already, being clear on the premise is good. As for ulterior motive, why yes, I had it. Wanted for you to start elaborate on your theory instead of mirroring ;) It's much easer for me to understand your points now, then you are not on defensive and do not think that people here dismiss your original post without reading. Also, I wounder, how many information is lost in translation (second language speaker here).

More Geth stuff from Cris L'Etolie. Was not able to find his original post, but parts of it are still floating around.

Spoiler

The geth's whole schtick is -- to paraphrase Legion -- "We do not experience (emotions), but we understand how (they) affect you."

Emotions would ruin the uniqueness of the geth. They're not humans. They're not organics, at the mercy of hormones and subjective senses. They're Different.

Geth are comfortable with what they are. They accept that organics are different, and that their way is not suited for organics (and vice versa). IMO, only an intelligence divorced from emotion could be so completely accepting. Geth are the essence of impartiality. If you pay attention to Legion's dialogue, you'll note it uses "judge" and judgment" quite often. I went out of my way to use that word, since judges in our society are supposed to impartial and unaffected by emotion when they make their decisions.

My broad approach with the geth was that they observed and judged (Legion used that word a lot), but always accepted. "You hate and fear us? Very well. We will go over there so we don't bother you. If you want to talk, come over whenever you want."

I wanted to treat AI with more respect than the tired Pinocchio "I want to be a Real Boy" cliches of Commander Data. The geth are machines. There's absolutely no reason they should want to be organics. They should be allowed to be strong enough to want to better themselves, not change themselves.

A geth wanting emotions would be no less disrespectful a character than a black man who wanted to be white.

I do not have much time, my apologies in advance for possibility of kicking up the dust later. Some dust is too interesting to be left alone ^^

[stratavar]

To sum up my concerns here, now that real discussion is finally rolling:

I don't like dealing in absolutes.  I don't like saying that something is "impossible."  I come from a background and have lived a life where always keeping an open mind and never dismissing anything, no matter how small of a chance, has rewarded me greatly.  To say "It's impossible for Natah to come to the conclusion that she would want children of her own" doesn't sit well with me.  I generally put things on a scale, and try to balance whether or not those points are "more" or "less" believable, and will usually opt for the point that I believe has more chances of success.  I just want to relay this point, as when people say "You think it's impossible" as a direct response to me, it just doesn't bode all that well with me, since it's unlikely that whatever the topic is, that I would believe it to be "impossible."  Thee only absolutes I will ever deal in is those that lock canon in place.

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To me it is interesting that she doesn't say "yes I wanted children". Her answer is more akin to "I didn't want to be a child". So from these lines I take it that she wanted to be in the societal position of a parent, rather than that of a child. Of course one can't be a parent without having children but it's not necessary to actually birth them (regardless of how we call the exact biological process of Sentient reproduction) and it was probably her work with the Tenno that made her realize that even though she can no longer produce offspring, she could still be "a parent".

This seems to push a theme of both maturity and rebirth on a grand scale for Natah.  She even went as far as to change her name.

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I am uncertain what constitutes "a typical parent-child group" or acting as one, but it's likely that this kind of relationship can actually exist between people who aren't related in this way. Have you heard the expression "he was like a father to me"? Conversely, individuals who don't share such emotional bond but act like they do probably stand to gain something from it. But does that apply to Hunhow and Natah? I don't see how. Skipping the next paragraph because I don't see how it's relevant (in the context of this discussion), sorry, and then 

A typical parent-child interaction would be one where parties offer levels of affection that is observed in a normally functioning familial setting.  Children obeying parents, parents providing emotional, nutritional, and really any other need that a developing child needs.  Sharing details of one's life that you wouldn't otherwise share at all with others.  The list goes on.  I'm not saying you have to be biologically connected to share these feelings, but what IS required is that you need prolonged interaction between the "parent" figure and the "child" figure in their respective roles to achieve an emotional connection. 

Maybe there was a lack of clarity about the point, but what I'm mainly driving here is that IF their method of reproduction does not necessitate a physical maturity process where the "child" relies on the "parent" to provide basic needs and wants, then an emotional connection similar to what we observe in our species between both parent and child for all generations would be unusual in their culture, detaching them from our line of thinking.  Logically speaking, parents wouldn't need to care about looking after their children, and children wouldn't need to care about respecting their parents.  Mitosis essentially creates a clone of the cell that it originally split from.  Imagine being a clone of an individual born into this world.  Even if you accepted that you came afterwards as a direct result of some cloning process, and while you would possibly retain some form of respect for your original self, you are your own thinking entity with comparable intellect to your original.  If your level of intelligence and ability to perform is on par with an individual that you work with, what do you consider him/her?  Most would say a colleague.

The rest of that last paragraph from my last post was more-so about laying the groundwork for understanding, as a species, the benefits and deficits that occur in a normal familial setting, and the possibilities that can stem from a lack thereof.  It's not about biology for us, just as you said, as much as it is the experiences that we share with people as we grow.  A basic level of filial piety can indeed exist, but for most, it is the interactions that occur during their maturity that determines their emotional consideration of those around them, and how these interactions even shape the children themselves.

Of course this all assumes that somebody at DE is taking all of these concerns about the maturation process into account when determining "how" Sentients reproduce and function as a society.

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You are saying, "if nothing necessitates filial piety but they still act it out, then that concept is no longer relatable because it's not caused by the same that causes it in our society"? That's a good argument especially in the context of them being aliens and thus not the same as us, but I am not sure how much it materially changes anything, notwithstanding that filial piety is respect towards those who brought you into the world.

And that is the thing that potentially concerns me with our lack of understanding about the Sentients.  Could it be because they intended to replicate or evolve a social structure comparable to that of the Orokin, simply because it is the only example of intelligent life acting out the process of community that they had observed?  It could very well be that they are simply imitating what they know, rather than relying on the benefits of such a system, or even needing it at all.  If they are simply imitating for the sake of a false image, then that opens the door to the Sentients being much more dangerous to everybody - even themselves.

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am I correct to understand that you meant we can't expect her to "want to be a mother" in the same way "humans want to be mothers"? If so we'd be more or less on the same page but your theory in the OP is not about differences between ours and Sentient society, it's a build-up towards "Natah could not have wanted to save the Tenno, someone else put her up to it (it was Margulis)" and that's what I'm arguing against here. I believe Natah didn't need the sort of outside influence that would qualify as "brainwashing" to want to save the Tenno.

As to the first part, basically Yes.  As we don't know enough about the Sentients, then it is much harder to make the leap that motherhood is the same for us, and as such, could be perceived vastly differently because of that lack of understanding.  My post was indeed a buildup saying that Margulis saved us, if the events transpired as they did, but I will admit that "brainwashing" was a slightly rash word.  I was using the most extremes on these spectrums that we're entertaining in that particular reply because the point of that reply seemed to be to drive powerful emotions home.  I would like the think Margulis played a part in the sparing of our lives.  As to how much so, I don't claim to know at all.  My original post deliberately avoided delving into that, because I just can't say.  I used the term "planting a seed" to suggest a vastly varied potential scope on influence.  I would like to think that she hardly did much at all.  A simple "straw that broke the camel's back" as it were.  All it takes for some people to act is to know that there is even just one person that empathizes with you.  You could easily be prepared to do whatever you deem necessary, but the triggerpull could be as small as a kind gesture.  As to whether Natah would've needed it?  I don't know.  I don't see her either needing it or not really being unsurprising no matter which side of the domino fell.

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Regardless of how parenthood is experienced and realized among these aliens, she gave this explanation. Becoming unable to reproduce is the root of her betrayal. Then the following exchange takes place

While that indeed is true, it still leaves the possibility that Margulis could've affected Natah's decision in such a minuscule and/or unperceivable way that Lotus feels that the act and thought was entirely her own.  That is of course if Margulis had done anything at all.  In fact, if Natah had experienced a "soma-void-resonance" event much like Baro due to being near the Tenno, and had heard Margulis's pleas(either from while she was alive, or even her current consciousness reaching out to her), all it really would mean to Natah is an affirmation that she is already doing the right thing by protecting them.

Pinning Margulis's influence(or not doing it at all) on Natah's timeline would be as simple as mocking up a small story of how she did it, and how it helped the gears turn.

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Simple but impossible. You can only change your own mind. Like earlier you admitted you revisited the text and found you had wrongly remembered something - you brought the evidence to yourself and changed your own mind.

I'm not one for delving into the technicals of reassessing one's belief on a topic in such a way, as it's a can of worms where people can derail the conversation quickly.  But of course "you can't change my mind."  Your actions and information can bring me to change my own mind.  What happened with that piece of information was indeed my lack of consistency with properly revisiting the content of the Natah quest before typing, but at the same time, you asked me to bring that information forward.  Your action of a request made me revise information on the topic, and as such, I changed my mind, recognizing that I had misinterpreted a piece of the information.

This by all means follows the concept of  "bring me evidence(or a lack thereof) - I change my mind."

 

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Why a being of pure logic, "thinking" in numbers and programmed to fulfill a specific goal have to worry about Natah and not just arrive to conclusion: she is "riven", so she have to be "reclaimed" and in the meanwhile we go on with the Plan B. I think, that if Hunhow was as focused on his mission as Natah was supposed to be before Void jump in the stratavar original post - he would not try to spare his seed from a future her "shamefull" actions will bring. No matter how catastrofic for her (and us) it may be.

Well we don't actually know the weight of this "Sequence" and these "Precepts", but the Sentients did indeed gain "sentience" along the way while terraforming the Tau system.  Noting that "sentience" is the ability to feel emotion and recognize perspective and subjective thoughts, while intellect is "sapience".  So it is clear that the Sentients do indeed feel some kind of emotion.  As to what though, we can't be entirely sure with so little exposure to the Sentient race.  As Belgard said, the Sentients show familial traits from what we have seen so far.  But again, we don't know the limitations and expectations of these "Sequences".  Is there something that compels the Sentients to complete their sequence?  Does each sentient have it's own, unique sequence that only he/she can fulfill?  Is being considered riven and intended for "reclaiming" spawned from one's inability to complete a sequence, or does it have to do with traitorous intent?  In which case, it most certainly could be that other Sentients could've been "reclaimed", but not from betrayal as much as a logical inability to complete one's sequence(e.g. Capture Target, but Target is dead at time of initial contact).  It would really be nice to get more in-depth explanations about the Sentients and what makes them tick :\

 

[Necromanrius]

57 minutes ago, stratavar said:

A typical parent-child interaction would be one where parties offer levels of affection that is observed in a normally functioning familial setting.  Children obeying parents, parents providing emotional, nutritional, and really any other need that a developing child needs.  Sharing details of one's life that you wouldn't otherwise share at all with others.  The list goes on.  I'm not saying you have to be biologically connected to share these feelings, but what IS required is that you need prolonged interaction between the "parent" figure and the "child" figure in their respective roles to achieve an emotional connection. 

Maybe there was a lack of clarity about the point, but what I'm mainly driving here is that IF their method of reproduction does not necessitate a physical maturity process where the "child" relies on the "parent" to provide basic needs and wants, then an emotional connection similar to what we observe in our species between both parent and child for all generations would be unusual in their culture, detaching them from our line of thinking.  Logically speaking, parents wouldn't need to care about looking after their children, and children wouldn't need to care about respecting their parents.  Mitosis essentially creates a clone of the cell that it originally split from.  Imagine being a clone of an individual born into this world.  Even if you accepted that you came afterwards as a direct result of some cloning process, and while you would possibly retain some form of respect for your original self, you are your own thinking entity with comparable intellect to your original.  If your level of intelligence and ability to perform is on par with an individual that you work with, what do you consider him/her?  Most would say a colleague.

The rest of that last paragraph from my last post was more-so about laying the groundwork for understanding, as a species, the benefits and deficits that occur in a normal familial setting, and the possibilities that can stem from a lack thereof.  It's not about biology for us, just as you said, as much as it is the experiences that we share with people as we grow.  A basic level of filial piety can indeed exist, but for most, it is the interactions that occur during their maturity that determines their emotional consideration of those around them, and how these interactions even shape the children themselves.

Of course this all assumes that somebody at DE is taking all of these concerns about the maturation process into account when determining "how" Sentients reproduce and function as a society.

In interesting insight on the possible working of such a society. That said, Hunhow clearly cares, to a degree, about Natah, as he isn't trying to punish or get revenge, but to bring her back. Though, we could argue that it is not love, or even emotion that drives him. If Natah is his child, and if they reproduce through mitosis, Sentients might have a "crime of the parent is crime of the child" and vice-versa, meaning that Natah's betrayal may screw over Hunhow because he's related. Those assumptions are based on my interpretation of AIs, I'm not sure if Mitosis amongst the Sentients can create sufficient divergence of personalities between parent and child to make such a law useless, and it relies on the possibility that the Sentients are in fact alive and kicking and have been rebuilding in the Tau system, waiting for round 2 (or three, if we consider deploying the Tenno round 2).

 

1 hour ago, stratavar said:

While that indeed is true, it still leaves the possibility that Margulis could've affected Natah's decision in such a minuscule and/or unperceivable way that Lotus feels that the act and thought was entirely her own.  That is of course if Margulis had done anything at all.  In fact, if Natah had experienced a "soma-void-resonance" event much like Baro due to being near the Tenno, and had heard Margulis's pleas(either from while she was alive, or even her current consciousness reaching out to her), all it really would mean to Natah is an affirmation that she is already doing the right thing by protecting them.

Pinning Margulis's influence(or not doing it at all) on Natah's timeline would be as simple as mocking up a small story of how she did it, and how it helped the gears turn.

I believe an argument could be made against that, though it's mostly semantics. when you say affected or influenced, it kind of implies a more direct interaction between Margulis and Natah, or at least an action by Margulis with the intention to sway Natah's decision.

I say it's only semantics because the rest of your argument does give (to me at least) the impression that you do in fact imply more indirect means, such as simply Natah viewing Margulis's plight. Considering how important parenthood seems to be amongst Sentients, if Hunhow and Natah are indeed the norm rather than exceptions, then Natah could have had felt empathy towards Margulis because of her maternal attitude towards the Tenno.

Since she infiltrated the Orokin, there could have been multiple ways for this to happen: that "soma-void-resonance" (note for the future, don't let Baro name new concepts!), interaction with any Margulis symphatizers (or even Ballas, whose relation and reaction to Margulis in the ...auditory flashback.. mirrors Hunhow's reaction to Natah's during her quest, or even some Orokin archives, as it wouldn't be too far fetched to think they recorded everything. There's also reason for Natah to seek that information, as she was supposed to infiltrate, thus gather information relevant to the Warframes and the transference, and Margulis was one of the main building blocks for it.

Continuing. Natah gathers the information, sees Margulis's plight, which she feels empathy for because of her own desire (can we even say need?) for parenthood, and the calling of the Tenno as children (they still look like children after however long cryosleep lasted). Nobody aside from Margulis viewed them as children, and thus nobody 'claimed' them as their own. They might as well be orphans in a box with 'pls adopt me' written on the front. The fact that Natah changed her name and symbol to Lotus is not random.

Take these quotes from the Second dream (Lotus said those) "They were about to destroy the orphans of Ten-Zero but Margulis... She loved you, she found a way..." and "The orokin murdered Margulis..." At the very least, I'd say the Lotus had a deep respect for Margulis and for her efforts to save the Tenno. Maybe she's just acting kind because it's a Tenno she's talking to, but I doubt that's the case.

 

6 hours ago, Belgard said:

It may be that when Perintol said the Void would destroy his creation, he meant that they would die out. After all if they all travelled back to the Origin System and became infertile, their species would soon become extinct. That said we could argue that travelling through the Rail is almost instantaneous so they were exposed to the Void very briefly and it only poisoned them "a little bit". Any longer and they would probably die. What do you think? You can't just observe the discussion, it's a lot more fun if you join in :^

I'd say, not many beings can go in the Void, if the Zariman 10-0 was any indication. But The Orokin made Towers that are in the Void, with the interior safe. Corpus have those nullifier bubbles, which also seem to work against it (one can step within Limbo's Cataclysm without being affected, though I agree that may simply be gameplay and "balance" or lack of, rather than lore). If there are techs that allow it, why can't the Sentients obtain and reverse that tech? they could use pretty much everything else!! to me it just feels inconsistent here. One mystery I'd like to solve though....

[Yrveth]

40 minutes ago, stratavar said:

Your action of a request made me revise information on the topic, and as such, I changed my mind, recognizing that I had misinterpreted a piece of the information.

Well that's surprising! Rather rare occurrence, on online forums, to eventually get someone to reconsider their stance. Now all that's left to worry about is probably, whether we could keep the actual discussion rolling if we're no longer in violent disagreement J

13 minutes ago, stratavar said:

Of course this all assumes that somebody at DE is taking all of these concerns about the maturation process into account when determining "how" Sentients reproduce and function as a society.

That's always an issue when it comes to speculating with unfinished stories, at some point people will always start questioning whether the fans are not taking it too far / did the authors really think of all this. Even on the more basic level, Natah's motivations, I have my doubts and worries. I worry that eventually the author will say "yeah she's, basically, an irrational infertile female, that's all!" but, until this happens, I want to give them more credit and hope that they thought of everything. So let us hope, that somebody at DE is indeed as engaged with this, as we are :^

18 minutes ago, stratavar said:

And that is the thing that potentially concerns me with our lack of understanding about the Sentients.  Could it be because they intended to replicate or evolve a social structure comparable to that of the Orokin, simply because it is the only example of intelligent life acting out the process of community that they had observed?  It could very well be that they are simply imitating what they know, rather than relying on the benefits of such a system, or even needing it at all.  If they are simply imitating for the sake of a false image, then that opens the door to the Sentients being much more dangerous to everybody - even themselves.

I had been thinking about this as well, it seems like a reasonable explanation of this discrepancy. But on the other hand, and honestly I just thought of this now, can we trust that this is the way things worked among the Orokin? We have in the MOA synthesis a mention that under the empire families didn't work that way ("What about your corpus, don't you miss them? Your father?" I say. / "Orokin didn't have parents like you do, it was done differently then.") so that begs the question, what were they imitating? The fake ties between the Orokin, if the Orokin themselves were mimicking such relationships? Or something present among lower castes (I believe implied in Kuria), or emulating knowledge of the past before the Empire? Basically I agree that they are likely to have been following a model, but I am curious not only if, but also what exactly. 

32 minutes ago, stratavar said:

Pinning Margulis's influence(or not doing it at all) on Natah's timeline would be as simple as mocking up a small story of how she did it, and how it helped the gears turn.

It would be very simple indeed, I don't argue this. And I admitted it doesn't go against my theory about her, but I still want it to not happen. It comes from the same place as hoping that the writers are actually thinking about their story as much (or hopefully more) than we are. Margulis is a good and important character and I do want her to get more attention in the lore, but hopefully, not at the expense of the Lotus. I think it would make a better story if Natah's change of heart came from herself, not because another character "opened her eyes". If these two characters could have actual interactions, perhaps it would be different. 

 

1 hour ago, Necromanrius said:

I'd say, not many beings can go in the Void, if the Zariman 10-0 was any indication. But The Orokin made Towers that are in the Void, with the interior safe. Corpus have those nullifier bubbles, which also seem to work against it

You know, I had never considered Nullifier bubbles in this context but you're right, they do block all Void powers. The question is, does that matter when you are already in the void? Remember that the Sentients cannot go there, even to a tower which appears to be shielded from the negative effects of the void (if this is how it actually works at all). I can't remember, do we have a confirmation that the Orokin towers we scour for loot have always been in the void? Or were they hidden there at some point, similar to the Moon? After all lore is consistent that the Void wasn't a friendly place for the Orokin... but again, I really don't remember so I'm going to need someone else to remind me, or else I'll have to look for it myself when i have a bit more time.

 

2 hours ago, rand0mname said:

Also, I wounder, how many information is lost in translation (second language speaker here).

I did wonder about this myself. It takes me a while to reply not only because I'm always re-reading the lore, but also because I always look up words to make sure I know what they mean. But perhaps things do get lost regardless -- not only when we write here, but also when we read the lore in the first place?

Also to your quotes about ME as a whole, it appears that DE do not take a similar stance. Even the Cephalons which I believe are meant to be computers/AI constantly talk about emotions. They may not experience them but at the very least they all (not just poor broken Ordis) mention them a lot as if they do. 

PS. Please do not say Mean things about Baro... he never did anything wrong...... at all,

[(PSN)Lowk721]

On 3/17/2016 at 4:00 AM, stratavar said:

Now have you ever met a Sentient being well beyond our level of intelligence, capable of continually adapting the entirety of their being to resist nearly all forms of external damage, created for the sole purpose of a single mission to eradicate the people that basically betrayed them from the start?  Expecting a being like that to want to be a mother is honestly more far-fetched than somebody essentially brainwashing her into it.

Not that far fetched when you consider who made her. Hunhow is one clingy overprotective dad and that is without having any sort of ghost like brainwashing. 

[rand0mname]

17 hours ago, Belgard said:

It appears that the Old War was mostly(?) fought in their system rather than ours (Hidden Messages okay this is ambiguous and could be the other way around, but at least according to the Mag codex) and I'm unsure how many Sentients besides Hunhow and Natah came to the Origin system.

Maybe. The Mag presence presume that some fighting in the Tau happened at a later stages of the Old War. 

Some questions here: how Perintol star-fishes got to Tau in first place? By “calculating the most optimal way and hoping that the exit will not be in the middle of nothing” and was “flaw” ...coded to become dominant/active only then Sentients reached Tau? Or did they just fly from point A to point B? How long was that travel? If it was fast, why not fly back the same way and instead become barren by Void jumping? And if it was closer to real life speeds then how freaking old Ballas is?

Why gates have not been destroyed by any side till the later stages of the war? Ok, Orokin needed Tau for the "Plan", but Sentients were marroned in Tau system anyway and had humans periodicaly jumping out of the gates waving new weapons. Maybe turning that weapons against Orokin was an interesting challenge - new data was like a chocolate to them? And then Tenno showed up and the threat of being wiped out made the Sentients to "sever the worlds" and sent Hunhow and Natah to end the War. Hmm, I wounder how hard for Sentients was it to blow up the gate, if building them was a reason for their existence at the start. 

17 hours ago, Belgard said:

On the other hand, the Ember codex says the Zariman had her accident on the way to the "Outer Gates" which I assumed means the Outer Terminus at Pluto. But perhaps the "Outer Gates" are at Tau. If it's the same ship, then they should be.

“The Zariman was lost making the fold from Saturn to the Outer gates.” “We were watching the stars, awaiting the jump to Tau.” I think it's safe to assume, that yes, Outer Gates are Tau Gates :) Well, of course it could be that Zariman real purpose was a hush-hush after many failures to colonise Tau, so it made a jump to Outer Terminus gate and was lost on the fold from Terminus to the Tau. As for it being a war ship - I guess the Plan also included getting rid of Sentients. My head hurts now. The ways to interpret that lore we have... Arghhh.

10 hours ago, Necromanrius said:

I'm not sure if Mitosis amongst the Sentients can create sufficient divergence of personalities between parent and child to make such a law useless, and it relies on the possibility that the Sentients are in fact alive and kicking and have been rebuilding in the Tau system, waiting for round 2 (or three, if we consider deploying the Tenno round 2).

"ALL IS SILENT IN THE CALM. HUSHED AND EMPTY IS THE WOMB OF THE SKY." Nothing prevents us from loading in one day and seeing that Sentients had an army that flied close (but not too close) to Origin system by the long route (without Void jumps and all). Just to check on the Hunhow and Natah.

10 hours ago, Necromanrius said:

I'd say, not many beings can go in the Void, if the Zariman 10-0 was any indication. But The Orokin made Towers that are in the Void, with the interior safe. Corpus have those nullifier bubbles, which also seem to work against it (one can step within Limbo's Cataclysm without being affected, though I agree that may simply be gameplay and "balance" or lack of, rather than lore). If there are techs that allow it, why can't the Sentients obtain and reverse that tech? they could use pretty much everything else!! to me it just feels inconsistent here. One mystery I'd like to solve though....

I swear, I seen something about “towers being protected from Void influence” and that going out will be a suicide. I think of it like the sea or sky. As time goes, we can go deeper or higher and survive in conditions we could not 100 years ago. We need to use special tools to deal with pressure and temperature and if they malfunction... Ouch. And how long ago humans did think that Earth is flat?

Maybe then Void jumping was just discovered any "fold" was a Russian roulette? “Nothing ever returns from the fold, so I closed the case”. Then as time was going on, the science (ha!) research was not standing in one place and eventually it become possible to shield a ship and “anchor” it in the “hell-space”. And after that, Towers were build in the our space, "folded" into Void and used as a safe-houses from Sentients? Lotus done same thing to Orokin Moon, only on a bigger scale. EPC entry is about time of air baloons, MPC entry is about time of planes and the present time line is about... idk, Laputa the Castle in the sky?

Now, Sentients could develop some kind of protection that made "folding" for them possible. But it was not perfect and while Void was not outright killing them, they can not stay in it for long and if they "dip a toe" they will become barren.

12 hours ago, stratavar said:

But again, we don't know the limitations and expectations of these "Sequences".  Is there something that compels the Sentients to complete their sequence?  Does each sentient have it's own, unique sequence that only he/she can fulfill?  Is being considered riven and intended for "reclaiming" spawned from one's inability to complete a sequence, or does it have to do with traitorous intent?  In which case, it most certainly could be that other Sentients could've been "reclaimed", but not from betrayal as much as a logical inability to complete one's sequence(e.g. Capture Target, but Target is dead at time of initial contact).  

I do really like the idea of a precept and sequence playing important role to be honest. Maybe going against it is like not thinking about something (white monkey, do not think about it for 5 minutes)? Or is it like holding your breath (we will build the gates again as soon as Hunhow will send "all clear" signal)? Or is it like making your heart stop (Sentient could grow a new heart at the right side of the chest I guess)?

 

12 hours ago, stratavar said:

It would really be nice to get more in-depth explanations about the Sentients and what makes them tick :\

Yes. With the logic defying hell-spaces, Moon being hidden in the Void (do not get me started on “will the lore actually ever address how life on Earth was possible with the Moon going away”), “Soma-void-resonance thing” (Baro Ki-Tir: Adventurer Archaeologist, The Most Rich Person in the Origin System outside a Corpus, The One who makes Tenno cry, Rival of Darvo and Inventor of Silly Terms), Infestation, AI and so on anything can happen. I guess, now we can talk about lore on a “Will it make a good story? Will it not break our generous willing suspension of disbelief? Will it not contradict with what little we know about Warframe Universe too much?” basis.

Edited March 21, 2016 by rand0mname
Typos

[Guest]

On 17.3.2016 at 8:12 AM, stratavar said:

Alright, well I've gotten into a typing frenzy thanks to having to delve into the lore surrounding the Warframes, and it left me with a feeling that I wanted to share my thoughts on the Warframes, Margulis, and Natah, and how they might possibly be connected to one another.

I actually typed a tad of this up as a response in another theory-crafting thread a few weeks ago, so if you by chance have seen this, bear with me.  I'll be making use of Spoiler Tabs, simply to make this thread more readable.

Margulis

  Reveal hidden contents

First, let's explore Margulis and her part that she plays in the story of the Tenno.  Margulis is first encountered(possibly, as it was never confirmed, and the original entry states that the character's name was "Kaleen") finding children aboard the Zariman 10-0.  She was afflicted by their Void Powers, blinding and scarring her face.  There is still a possibility that this was not Margulis, but most of Margulis's interaction with the Tenno and her ultimate fate seems spot-on for a link to be drawn to this "Kaleen" character, who has never been mentioned since the Ember Prime Codex Entry.

From what we know if Kaleen is indeed Margulis, she saw the fearful children aboard the Zariman 10-0, and despite affliction she was faced with, she pushed on and held the children dear.  Margulis was a mother to them after they lost their families, and she may have even developed an interest for motherhood, in a similar fashion to what we see in the "Natah" quest for Lotus.

Transference becomes a possibility thanks to the the scientific efforts of Margulis and the Orokin, but it doesn't take long to realize what this means for the Tenno.  The Orokin intend to build a super-weapon to conquer their enemies(ironically enough, the enemies that they themselves created) - The Warframes.  Margulis would naturally object to this, so it's questionable as to if she was even still alive after the creation of the first Warframes.  Saryn Prime's Reveal certainly suggests that at the very least, she was dead before Saryn's creation.

Setting the Stage: Story-line Progression

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Really, the whole time frame is very fractured at the moment.  If you follow the Corpus Detron Crewman's Entry and consider the scientist being executed mentioned in the beginning to be Margulis, then this means that the events of the Zariman 10-0 occurred before the creation of the Sentients and Infested.  That really wacks with a lot of the possibilities of the timeline, but at the same time, would suggest that Transference came a good time after the Tenno were first placed in Cryostasis.

So if that's actually the case, then that puts the creation of the Sentients, Infested, and Warframes within a somewhat small window, assuming that the Orokin age like a human would be expected to.  I would personally expect no more than 30 years from the events of the Zariman 10-0 and the beginning of the Great War if that were the case, as I'm doubtful that Ballas could keep such a job past his 50s and 60s.  Executing people is hard work....  Ballas even mentions Transference's inception into the story-line, and mentions the "rejects" that were sent to Lua:

That still doesn't place a pin on the introduction of the Tenno, but if the consigning occurred shortly after the children came back, then that shortens the time-frame considerably.
If we make some assumptions for this story-line here, and say that Margulis was executed within a year's time of the return of the Zariman 10-0, and that was indeed her in the both the Ember Prime and Corpus Detron Crewman Entries, then we can assume that the creation of the Sentients and Infested occurred either before or around the time of the discovery of Transference.

Personally though, I believe that this individual wasn't Margulis in the Detron Crewman's Entry simply for the fact that shifting the Sentient and Infested timeframe ahead of the Zariman 10-0 helps flesh out a timeline that doesn't seem so crazily rushed.  It was mentioned somewhere, but I can't seem to find where, that the Zariman 10-0 was jumping to the Lua system as a part of the first wave of ships to arrive after the terraforming that would've been completed by the Sentients.  It could indeed be that the Sentients were waiting for them there, the Tenno actually "lucked out" that the jump failed, and weren't annihilated on arrival like the rest of the Orokin who arrived on the other side.

 

So to hopefully mock up a plausible timeline, we have this:
Items with Question Marks Can easily be adjusted accordingly to fit different storyline criteria.

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• Creation of the Sentients - Sentients sent to Terraform Lua
• Zariman Jump to Lua(Zariman 10-0 incident)
• Sentients begin travelling to Terminus
• Tenno Placed in Cryostasis
• Margulis Executed
• First combat encounters of Sentients(?) - Technological Improvements
• Infestation Created(?)
• Tenno subjected to Experiments on Lua
• Warframe Creation(?(Possibly hinted in Rhino Prime Codex))
• Sentients arrive in full force(?) - Infestation uncontrollable(?)
• Great War Erupts - Tenno and Warframes show great Success
• Natah sent through Void to infiltrate Orokin Empire and manipulate Tenno
• Great War Continues, exhausting Orokin Empire - Natah Successful
• Supposed End of Great War - Sentients hide away - Tenno Betrayal
• Moon placed in Void by Natah - Tenno in Cryostasis - Warframes scattered across System

Now with a plausible timeline in place, I'll begin covering the topics of Warframes, Natah, and Margulis a little more in-depth.

 

What are Warframes exactly?
This is copied from a response to another post earlier.  I'll be revising it to make it fall more in line with this post here.

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Pretty much all content in the Codex that talks about the creation of Warframes suggests that they are some kind of culmination of the orokin's 3 most potent technologies, or at least 2.  Sentient and Infested technology, and possibly even Grineer Cloning seem make up the Warframes.

 

The thing that seems most likely have caused the events in the Second Dream quest(breaking War without the assistance of the Operator) is the infested flesh of the Warframe.  The infested is a Hive-mind, as shown by both codex entries and gameplay.  What this means is that infested flesh shares a will across all other forms of infestation.  If you've ever seen the movie "Edge of Tomorrow", which is based off of the novel "All You Need is Kill", the enemies there are also a Hive-mind.  Infested flesh lives independently of the main source of consciousness, but essentially follows the "Queen's" will(Queen being the main source of consciousness).  That flesh can also communicate to other organisms that share similarities with one another, which is shown by Infested bosses communicating with us in dialogue, and referring to us as "one of us."  Another thing that you can find in the codex, and also by listening to the operator, is that the older infested entities that have fed on creatures are more powerful, and possibly posses more of a consciousness than younger, weaker infested bodies. 

 

If the Warframes are indeed made of infested flesh, then it is possible that they do in fact contain a form of consciousness within them.  But the question has to be asked - How does the Warframe not simply join the ranks of the infested Hive-mind if it is made of infested flesh?  For one, the operator when talking about the infested suggests that we are "immune" to them, but they still attack us.  Infested attack for the purpose of spreading their infestation, and expanding their ranks.  They're essentially a virus or bacteria.  Every action is for the sake of survival and expansion.  There is something that separates the infested flesh found in our enemies and the infested flesh found inside our Warframes.  This starts moving on to my personal theory about the Warframes at this point, which are two potentially conjoined theories as well.  Sentients continually adapt and build, while Grineer flesh rapidly decomposes.

 

What if the infested flesh inside of our Warframe is continually decomposing, like the Grineer, and then being rebuilt, by the Sentient technology, making it an entirely new substance?  This would allow a fairly potent regeneration factor while being incredibly resilient to damage.  All the while, the current infestation cannot affect the flesh nor conscious if adapted by the Sentient technology, and the flesh cannot continue to age and build a progressively complex conscious, essentially stunting and freezing its intelligence to a similar level that was displayed during the Second Dream quest.

 

This could be a possible explanation for what we witnessed in the Second Dream Questline, and if the Rhino Prime Codex entry is mentioning the first attempts at creating a Warframe, that as well.

 

What about the Void?

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My theory on this is a fairly simple one, considering what we currently understand of the void.  
The void is essentially a dimension that contains immense energy, and defies most standard laws of logic and physics.  This can be seen in a multitude of ways.  The new Moon Spy missions allow traveling through time and space.  It's possible that through this, we could even travel back in time and interact with characters in the story-line, but personally, I believe that DE will show some restraint in using the Void as the catch-all excuse to get away with weak plot-holes.
Another thing that is suggested through a few points of lore and game-play is that the Void somehow connects or possibly bombards the consciousness of individuals that have an affinity with it.  Vor, after being afflicted with void energy, suddenly becomes a wacko.  Is he just a nut-job, or has he possibly transcended his original level of intellect and consciousness?  Is it possible that The void, much like the Infestation, eventually inflicts a very Hive-mind-like state on its victims?  This could also be hinted in the Second Dream, where Margulis mentions voices.
 

What voices could possibly be "taking hold" of the Tenno?  Could the void even be something much like a dimension where the consciousness of the dead gather?  It would be comparable to Heaven at that rate.  A gathering of lost souls if you will.

Now with that segway rolling right in: Margulis and Natah.

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Margulis is clearly dead well before the events of the Great War.  Now, glancing back at the questions  about the Void, this is where my theory on these two starts moving into the picture.  What would it be like as a consciousness in the Void?  Would you be in a Limbo-like state (pun intended)?  Would it all be a haze?  Could you even possibly connect to the minds of others that are under the influence of Void energy?  It's no secret that Sentients are weak to the void.  Codex entries, including the Detron Crewman's entry, suggest that the void is like a "poison" to them.  But it could simply be that Sentients begin to notice the effects of the Void at an accelerated rate.  This could be something that happens to any and all living beings with a conscious.

This argument, while somewhat weak, could lead to the explanation of many events that we've seen so far.  Returning to the topic of the Void being a "gathering of souls".  Margulis was afflicted by Void energy, but survived her encounter with the Tenno.  Vor slowly poisoned himself with his Janus key, and was eventually killed by void energy as well.  Basically what I'm getting at, is that Margulis's conscious may still very well be or could've been alive, but trapped in the void.  The void may take on a role where it always reclaims what belongs to it in the end.
Natah, to come back to the Terminus and facilitate the betrayal of the Tenno, had to travel via Void Jump.  Doing this made her sterile, but what if it did even more than that?  What if even inhabiting the Void exposes your consciousness to those "souls" that are forever linked to the Void?  My theory is that while Natah was traveling to the Terminus, Margulis, or what may have been left of her consciousness, noticed Natah, and was able to see her intent of manipulating, and eventually ultimately killing the Tenno, by invading her mind.  With what energy Margulis may have had, she planted a seed inside of Natah's head.  It was the seed of herself.  Her desire to protect her "children."  It may even be possible that Margulis planted a portion of her own consciousness inside of Natah to protect the Tenno.

 

With this, Natah arrives in the Terminus, intending to manipulate the Tenno, but she then becomes torn by an unexplained maternal instinct or "desire" of motherhood.  Remember that Sentients are born with a goal.  The entirety of their existence is built around following through with their goal.  Do you think that an intelligence of this level would just inadvertently develop and interest in children, and betray its kind so readily?

The final events of the Great War and Natah's deception transpire, leaving the Tenno in Cryostasis on the Moon, and Warframes scattered across the Terminus.  And now here we are, playing Warframe.

TL:DR, because it was super long:  Margulis while in the Limbo of the Void after Death, plants seed in Natah's head, protecting the Tenno from her plan to kill them.  AKA Space-Ghost-Mom saves the day.

Super long post.  Feel free to talk, comment,  flame, or do whatever.  I'm just glad to type it for the hell of it.

didnt find anything related to it then by glimpses

i could imagine a full story which is playable, as well as warframe is faar off it (^^

i say it again, the artwork/grafics in warframe is really awsome, the lore too, the playable content is a grindwall or about 20 % according to the "fantasies" around which im close to stop caring about

shure, my wish for more content then frames and weapons grows infinite because we dont have it right now ... and thats it for today to that theme for me

postscriptum: i like to play lore in a game, not dreaming about which im not able to because i support/play with real cash ... and some marketinggenies provoked a grindwall out of the creative people at DE

Edited March 21, 2016 by Guest

[Yrveth]

1 hour ago, rand0mname said:

Some questions here: how Perintol star-fishes got to Tau in first place? By “calculating the most optimal way and hoping that the exit will not be in the middle of nothing” and was “flaw” ...coded to become dominant/active only then Sentients reached Tau? Or did they just fly from point A to point B? How long was that travel? If it was fast, why not fly back the same way and instead become barren by Void jumping? And if it was closer to real life speeds then how freaking old Ballas is?

Old... old as Ballas :^ bad puns aside I was left with the impression that they travelled the "regular" way, without jumping through hyperspace. So it should have taken them quite long especially as they were building along the way. On the other hand it couldn't have taken too long as the Orokin were already struggling with the lack of resources in the Origin system. If they had to wait more than a few hundred years that would be stretching it. Though I really don't know how plausible that would be astronomically. If this assumption is correct then it could explain why they didn't fly back the same way, as the Orokin had immediate access to their system and were attacking them already. Why they didn't blow up the gate on their end though, that I was wondering too. After all it shouldn't have been of any use to them, and the Empire could hardly defend it.

2 hours ago, rand0mname said:

“The Zariman was lost making the fold from Saturn to the Outer gates.” “We were watching the stars, awaiting the jump to Tau.” I think it's safe to assume, that yes, Outer Gates are Tau Gates

If it is the same ship, as I said.

EPC ship: Zariman; likely a military vessel; lost jumping from Saturn to unknown destination*; missing only a few days.
Operator's ship: Zariman 10-0; implied colonist ship; lost jumping from unknown location to Tau; was found years later, drifting through space**

* depending on how the Rails work, the implication is strong for Outer Terminus IMO. If it's a rail, then you have to go through each checkpoint, right? Then again if they have been confirmed to work in a different way during DS conflict availability, I wouldn't know.
** but that's just where they found the ship, it may have been within the Void for years while very little time passed on the outside... or the other way around.

I'm repeating myself but I still think that it is possible that the EPC Zariman is not the 10-0. That they used the same class of ship in an attempt to recreate the incident and make more Tenno, and succeeded. This could clear some discrepancies between the old and new lore and put a nail in the Kaleen=Margulis theory. Ultimately it doesn't matter much for this discussion whether it's the same ship or not. I just like to point out there is an alternative.

2 hours ago, rand0mname said:

"ALL IS SILENT IN THE CALM. HUSHED AND EMPTY IS THE WOMB OF THE SKY."

Didn't this quote ultimately turn out to have been about the Reservoir, specifically the Reservoir-within-the-Void? Though if the above assumption is correct, that it takes few hundred years for the Sentients to travel from Tau to the Origin system the ordinary way, the timeframe would fit for them to return just about now.

I am a bit short on time at the moment so I'll just say you make interesting points about the Void/Towers within it, it's an intriguing topic. Did it have particular effects on the Orokin people if it took a specific ship malfunction to create the Tenno? Certainly nothing of the same magnitude as the effect it has on the Sentients. But prior to the war they simply had no use hiding their structures in there.

Hope you have some more thoughts to share!

[rand0mname]

2 hours ago, Belgard said:

If they had to wait more than a few hundred years that would be stretching it. Though I really don't know how plausible that would be astronomically.

I really tried to avoid thinking about that.

"Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space." — Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Let's Goggle!

Tau Ceti is just under 12 light-years away from our Solar system. Oh-oh. A light-second is the distance light travels in one second, or 7.5 times the distance around Earth’s equator... So, any mentions of FTL travel in lore? At least we can forget about that Sentient Fleet. Damn. Was looking forward to it.

But here is a good news: "Since December 2012, there has been evidence of possibly five planets orbiting Tau Ceti, with two of these being potentially in the habitable zone." I do not think that "habitable zone" in Warframe matters much, but that there ARE planets at all - it is good.

As for several Zarimans... DE do have a lot of room for maneuver, are they not? I think all lore we have can be taken in at least 2 ways.

Edited March 21, 2016 by rand0mname