RIP competitive PvP. Dark Sectors will no longer have PvP according to dev stream 71.

[-InV-Skitz0]

1 hour ago, (XB1)CFE Discord said:

Quoting you in that thread

"In PvE mode the attacker does not have a cap at 20 lives, instead each WarFrame uses the same 4 revives that it would on normal missions. Also the attackers do not bring with them a specter regiment they are playing the enemy's specters with just their squad of four. Now the only thing left is to ensure that PvE players spend an equal amount of time in game as PvP players do, this way no matter the option to PvP or to PvE you are doing around the same amount of damage in about the same amount of time. First the amount of forces the attacker must face is increased both in number and power in later sections. Secondly Items such as turrets should pose much more of a threat to PvE then it's PvP counterpart. Buff the HP/armor of turrets and make them deal a solid amount of damage, having each turrets in each progressing section doing even more damage."

Yeaaa, I dont see how that can work. It would be devastatingly easy to cheese through the PvE mode on rails. Now, I know what you are thinking, "But Discord, cant they do the same thing in the PvP mode and cheese it there too ?" No. They cant. There is always a way to counter something or someone in PvP. Humanity as a whole is good at thinking ourselves out of bad situations and will find an even better strategy to beat the cheese. PvE enemies cant think. They cant adapt. If someone finds a way to do the PvE option in 30 seconds, AI enemies wont stand a snowball`s chance in hell of surviving against that strategy. However, a Human can adapt and beat that strategy. If there is a PvE option, rails would be more exploited than they are accused of already.

I wasn't advocating the systems I laid out back in September 2014 rather jut pointing out historically I was an advocate of PvE and PvP options,  and not simply "rolling over for DE" as Xodus so eloquently put it.  I DO however believe that some system could be put in place to accommodate both.  Perhaps the PvE option could be similar to the mobile defense/sabotage motif of ole DS this way they could be drawn out to ideally be longer then the typical PvP battles and maybe even count for less rail damage or health to incentivize a strong PvP presence. I don't claim to  have all the answers here, but if we cant as a community come together and make compelling compromises then most likely at least one side of this argument is going to get the complete shaft in all of this. And from the sound of the last DEV stream then it will be the PvP players who get the shaft which is not something I want to see happen.

 

55 minutes ago, (XB1)Xodus03 said:

 

 I know you guys both have been fighting for rails like myself and a few others since they have been put on Armistice... and like some of us, even before... but only recently have I seen you guys openly accept/endorse the PvE aspect of it which is why I am wondering what has changed over the last year? If all you are talking about with PvE intertwining with PvP is reminiscent of what Rails used to be (PvP with NPC's running around to kill in a mode who's purpose is conquering territory), then yeah I wouldn't be against that at all... but I won't settle for something silly like a Leaderboard to track PvE progress for the system... I still want a fight of some sort. The problem is that it sounds like DE is wanting to turn Rails from a competitive Clan/Alliance based system into a fully PvE system that mirrors basically the rest of the entire game and caters to everyone BUT the competitive. It is funny how you guys are advocating the PvE version of Rails while saying the PvP system benefits you more, while I am over here advocating the PvP version even though I know the PvE version would accommodate my clan and group much more than the PvP would due to us holding majority of the top PvE clans in the game in a single Alliance lol... not that we aren't ready for PvP either.

 You may be right in some of my posts seeming like "personal attacks" and I will fully admit that I take alot of aspects of Solar Rails personal in general and do get offended.... not by the accusations, insults or any of that, but the complete upheaval of a system that I have put 1000's of hours and almost equal amounts of money into only to have all of the purpose and previous hard work/investment be stripped away due to the creating company jumping ship rather than answering the call for help that it actually needed. Also rarely, if ever, do I recall attacking someone unwarranted before they brought up something directly involving me, and if I do acknowledge or debate a specific point or person, it is usually in effort to defend myself as well as bring the true information regarding the topic to light.

 

I feel you man I really do. I know what it's like to dedicate thousands of hours for your alliance. Unless you are there to witness it first hand the no one would have any idea the amount of time and work it takes to organize and run a competitive alliance. Same Days I struggle to find time to simply run my sorties or other things or even spend the amount of time with my clan as I would like. But if you let your emotions get the best of you when conveying your position on the  matter it only works to undermine your own efforts in the long run. Typically no matter how valid a point you may have if someone fells like your personally attacking them or others they will only respond to that and forgo any logical point you may have had. And like I said before you do have a LOT of points I agree with on  this matter.

 

55 minutes ago, (XB1)Xodus03 said:

 Anyway, to a certain extent I agree with the mentality that it doesn't matter what happens to Solar Rails as long as they remain competitive in nature and we actually get them back soon. Please keep the really adamant and passionate player base for the mode in mind when working on the new system... there is no way to make EVERYONE happy but atleast give the people who have been here fighting for this, a path to enjoy your game once again rather than neglect us over the opinions of people who have always had the choice to not play something rather than come here and ruin it for everyone who did enjoy it.

I completely agree with this statement.

Edited March 24, 2016 by --Skitz0--
clarfication error

[(XBOX)Xodus03]

10 minutes ago, --Skitz0-- said:

 I don't claim to  have all the answers here, but if we cant as a community come together and make compelling compromises then most likely at least one side of this argument is going to get the complete shaft in all of this. And from the sound of the last DEV stream then it will be the PvP players who get the shaft which is not something I want to see happen.

^This... so please all of you PvP advocates start showing your support as well as contribute some constructive input if you have any.

[(XBOX)BroadsideMobsta]

In order to keep this aspect of the game truly competitive and interesting it needs to remain competitive. It is in no way rewarding to think that one can beat out an entire alliance by simply having a better day at pve. There are too many people that have stopped playing the game because of the armistice, but still say they will be back when armistice is over! But to not bring them back as pvp would almost be unheard of. Rails without pvp is like snapple peach tea, without the peach. If you want to make solar rails have more of a pve aspect to it than what it had before then maybe take a page out of how the MOBA's do things. Consider a boss at certain parts of the conflict where if you kill it, it increases secondary weapon damage, or fire rate. While I liked rails how they were before and would love to see them return to there original state, if you truly wish to incorporate more pve in the mode then this may be an option to consider. Lets also not forget why rails were put under armistice in the first place, DE didn't think they fell in line with their goals of conclave 2.0. So DE please keep that state of mind, conclave 2.0 was a success!

[(XBOX)StealthinWolf]

25 minutes ago, (XB1)BroadsideMobste said:

In order to keep this aspect of the game truly competitive and interesting it needs to remain competitive. It is in no way rewarding to think that one can beat out an entire alliance by simply having a better day at pve. There are too many people that have stopped playing the game because of the armistice, but still say they will be back when armistice is over! But to not bring them back as pvp would almost be unheard of. Rails without pvp is like snapple peach tea, without the peach. If you want to make solar rails have more of a pve aspect to it than what it had before then maybe take a page out of how the MOBA's do things. Consider a boss at certain parts of the conflict where if you kill it, it increases secondary weapon damage, or fire rate. While I liked rails how they were before and would love to see them return to there original state, if you truly wish to incorporate more pve in the mode then this may be an option to consider. Lets also not forget why rails were put under armistice in the first place, DE didn't think they fell in line with their goals of conclave 2.0. So DE please keep that state of mind, conclave 2.0 was a success!

That sounds cool PvE helps the PvP

[(XBOX)Xodus03]

1 hour ago, (XB1)BroadsideMobste said:

In order to keep this aspect of the game truly competitive and interesting it needs to remain competitive. It is in no way rewarding to think that one can beat out an entire alliance by simply having a better day at pve. There are too many people that have stopped playing the game because of the armistice, but still say they will be back when armistice is over! But to not bring them back as pvp would almost be unheard of. Rails without pvp is like snapple peach tea, without the peach. If you want to make solar rails have more of a pve aspect to it than what it had before then maybe take a page out of how the MOBA's do things. Consider a boss at certain parts of the conflict where if you kill it, it increases secondary weapon damage, or fire rate. While I liked rails how they were before and would love to see them return to there original state, if you truly wish to incorporate more pve in the mode then this may be an option to consider. Lets also not forget why rails were put under armistice in the first place, DE didn't think they fell in line with their goals of conclave 2.0. So DE please keep that state of mind, conclave 2.0 was a success!

 I think combining aspects of a MOBA with the Solar Rail system is a great way to incorporate more PvE into a PvP game mode... and mentioned it in some of the earlier Solar Rail discussions. The ground work is already laid out for a MOBA with the way the power system works, with 4 abilities like most MOBAs. All that would need to be added would be cool down timers on all of the abilities to balance strength and eliminate power spammers. For the layout, like you said, adding some points where there would be special boss encounters you needed to beat in order to progress or gain advantages would also add more of both a PvE and MOBA aspect to it as well, and I don't think anyone from the PvP side of the discussions would even be upset about it as long as we had equal sized teams on either side of each match in each conflict.

Edited March 25, 2016 by (XB1)Xodus03
Fixed Errors

[-InV-Skitz0]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Xodus03 said:

 I think combining aspects of a MOBA with the Solar Rail system is a great way to incorporate more PvE into a PvP game mode... and mentioned it in some of the earlier Solar Rail discussions. The ground work is already laid out for a MOBA with the way the power system works, with 4 abilities like most MOBAs. All that would need to be added would be cool down timers on all of the abilities to balance strength and eliminate power spammers. For the layout, like you said, adding some points where there would be special boss encounters you needed to beat in order to progress or gain advantages would also add more of both a PvE and MOBA aspect to it as well, and I don't think anyone from the PvP side of the discussions would even be upset about it as long as we had equal sized teams on either side of each match in each conflict.

One of the biggest turn off for me in the  last PvP system was the whole attacker / defenders system. But if it was set up more like a moba as you suggest this would remove that old annoyance completely. Instead of only one side attacking and one side defending players would spawn at their own rails core, You meet in the middle to fight and take out turrets (towers) in order to  progress to the other teams core.

Of course how would hosting be handled then? Unless it's server side I don't see it not being exploitable.

[(XBOX)Xodus03]

 

14 hours ago, --Skitz0-- said:

One of the biggest turn off for me in the  last PvP system was the whole attacker / defenders system. But if it was set up more like a moba as you suggest this would remove that old annoyance completely. Instead of only one side attacking and one side defending players would spawn at their own rails core, You meet in the middle to fight and take out turrets (towers) in order to  progress to the other teams core.

Of course how would hosting be handled then? Unless it's server side I don't see it not being exploitable.

 You are probably right, but that pretty much goes the same for absolutely ANY type of PvP experience we could ever want to experience... It all falls back to the root of the original problem for Solar Rails in the first place, dedicated servers... or lack there of. 

 Fun Fact: Our clan offered to buy a dedicated server and have it sent to DE for our Clan Dojo... also allowing them to use any extra space that was available on it for anything they saw fit (other clan's dojos, relays, PvP servers, ect).... and they turned us down for some reason lol. 

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

24 minutes ago, (XB1)Xodus03 said:

 

 You are probably right, but that pretty much goes the same for absolutely ANY type of PvP experience we could ever want to experience... It all falls back to the root of the original problem for Solar Rails in the first place, dedicated servers... or lack there of. 

 Fun Fact: Our clan offered to buy a dedicated server and have it sent to DE for our Clan Dojo... also allowing them to use any extra space that was available on it for anything they saw fit (other clan's dojos, relays, PvP servers, ect).... and they turned us down for some reason lol. 

This is true. It's a Fact, but it wasn't very Fun because DE turned it down. :(

[(XBOX)o0ZombieFreak0o]

This shouldn't even be an option. Why would DE ruin the very thing that seperated this game from the rest? Half of the people on Warframe are here for that second to none type of gameplay(Solar Rails). Take that away and all that's left is a couple fan boys beating off in region chat phishing for the next troll. Everyone here knows what kind of B.S is in there(including DE). Why not fix that? So what's the deal DE? Is this a game that is heading in the direction of "whine enough and get what you want", or can we count you to bring back the very thing that got us to come together?

[CandyDragon]

Global agenda really highlighted the flaws in an alliance/guild based power struggle for locations.

Invariably the alliances will start sniping the good players from the weaker ones, eventually those guys do get tired of losing, and the existing power of the strongest alliance increases. All the while the smaller alliances get subsumed into this sort of "join or fail" type paradox for any hint at winning the dark sectors. (not that this didn't happen already to some degree, but dark sectors are pretty irrelevant now and the drama is almost all gone.)

pvp being missing from a mode, to fight over a PVE node is reasonable enough to understand. 

That being said, it would be nice to see more PVP modes that replicated the nature of your darksector combat. 

Edited March 27, 2016 by Nariala

[Leyers_of_facade]

Well, I did see someone suggest having pve and pvp aspects and so I thought of an idea (I hope no one mentioned it before)

I suggest having both aspect, we get the pvp like the old dark sector but we implement current conclave settings into it to make it "balanced" (although conclave is still not balanced, it is better)

Then we also can have pve part similar to formorian alert style, where players can sabotage the enemy rail to reduce the % health of an item (cryogenic controller, gravity controller), and if they succeed in destroying the said item, there will be a negative status placed on enemy team (eg, half shields... eg low gravity, but not sur if that is better or worse)

What do you all think?

Edited March 27, 2016 by 14159265358979323846

[CandyDragon]

2 hours ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

What do you all think?

I think it ends up making the pvp section of the game unfun, and generally will cause this frustration of "PVE players should not be able to influence pvp" through contribution.

[(XBOX)Xodus03]

7 hours ago, Nariala said:

I think it ends up making the pvp section of the game unfun, and generally will cause this frustration of "PVE players should not be able to influence pvp" through contribution.

 This is a good point. A big argument for the PvE side and Solar Rails not coming back is "PvP should never influence PvE", and the only factors that affected PvE was the conflicts covering the nodes for 12 hours (max), and tax values placed on the nodes... all the meanwhile Solar Rails, being a PvP game mode is being influenced by PvE players in a major way. Said it before, if you want to keep them separate, then just separate them the using the same system you use for planets with an infestation; give the players a choice to play the conflicts in progress, or the mission underneath... simple. Paying any extra mind to any of the discussion regarding tax values and people not wanting to pay them really is irrelevant to the actual topic at hand. If people don't want to pay taxes, they don't have to play those nodes.

 

Main problem: Solar Rails are gone/ being turned into PvE

Reason: Poor P2P matchmaking problems leading to community dissatisfaction

Minor Problems: Balancing issues

Solution: Dedicated servers eliminating poor P2P connections. Reinstating Solar Rails. Actively Balancing Solar Rails same way CC is being actively balanced now.

Edited March 28, 2016 by (XB1)Xodus03
Added more/spelling

[(XBOX)BroadsideMobsta]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Xodus03 said:

 This is a good point. A big argument for the PvE side and Solar Rails not coming back is "PvP should never influence PvE", and the only factors that affected PvE was the conflicts covering the nodes for 12 hours (max), and tax values placed on the nodes... all the meanwhile Solar Rails, being a PvP game mode is being influenced by PvE players in a major way. Said it before, if you want to keep them separate, then just separate them the using the same system you use for planets with an infestation; give the players a choice to play the conflicts in progress, or the mission underneath... simple. Paying any extra mind to any of the discussion regarding tax values and people not wanting to pay them really is irrelevant to the actual topic at hand. If people don't want to play taxes, they don't have to play those nodes.

 

Main problem: Solar Rails are gone/ being turned into PvE

Reason: Poor P2P matchmaking problems leading to community dissatisfaction

Minor Problems: Balancing issues

Solution: Dedicated servers eliminating poor P2P connections. Reinstating Solar Rails. Actively Balancing Solar Rails same way CC is being actively balanced now.

Would love to see some dedicated servers in dark sector conflicts! And i think bringing in the conclave aspect to rails would be a great idea, maybe even make it so only the conclave mods could be used as well to further balance it even more, and stay in line with DE's original plan for dark sectors when they first put them under armistice. And to everyone posting their ideas on how to improve dark sector conflicts while keeping the pvp aspect involved thank you! Our voices should be heard as a community.

Edited March 27, 2016 by (XB1)BroadsideMobste

[Stormdragon]

Time to ask for pvp dark sectors back.

Go! Go! Go!

[(XBOX)Xodus03]

1 hour ago, -----LegioN----- said:

Time to ask for pvp dark sectors back.

Go! Go! Go!

I wish that vote lasted longer. We were only just hearing about it and spreading the word to go vote by the time it ended... oh well it went from 42% down to 36% on "No PvP" altogether so that is a positive atleast. 

Edited March 28, 2016 by (XB1)Xodus03

[(XBOX)Aeries Vendetta]

On 3/18/2016 at 1:51 PM, Trimaxsingi said:

Ok guys... I get you, but think about this... Think about conclave, everyone thinks that aklato's are bad compared to dex furis right? So howcome that aklato weapon (even a really low lvl guy can get it) dominates dex furis??? I mean you call that balance? pff... The "balance" you talk about is about skill and tactics and preparation. It was nothing to do with balance, it was all about how you build your weapons (elementals, weapon types, melee types).

So it was all about experience, not balance...

I don't think u fully understand what u are talking about. Balance of the weapons is half of the battle. I'm an explosive user. Any buff it nerf any direction and my weapons become either op or unusable. Skill comes in after. 

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

16 hours ago, (XB1)Xodus03 said:

I wish that vote lasted longer. We were only just hearing about it and spreading the word to go vote by the time it ended... oh well it went from 42% down to 36% on "No PvP" altogether so that is a positive atleast. 

It's kind of odd that they gave us no forewarning.

[(XBOX)Warlord Wolfy]

I like the moba idea.  The pvp pve mash up also wouldnt be a bad thing if done properly.  Granted its getting mixed reviews look at Halo 5s Warzone.  It mixs pvp for those that want it and pve in mini bosses.  As for the complants that I read a couple pages ago about this supposed unplayable nodes.  How about DE just removes the dark sectors from every planet.  Then they give them there own area, kinda like the void and OD is currently.  Then us players that want a pvp system can have our pvp.  Without the need for the pure pve player to have to ever see it on the planets.  Again just my opions on what was my favorite part of WF.

Edited March 28, 2016 by (XB1)Warlord Wolfy

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

45 minutes ago, (XB1)Warlord Wolfy said:

I like the moba idea.  The pvp pve mash up also wouldnt be a bad thing if done properly.  Granted its getting mixed reviews look at Halo 5s Warzone.  It mixs pvp for those that want it and pve in mini bosses.  As for the complants that I read a couple pages ago about this supposed unplayable nodes.  How about DE just removes the dark sectors from every planet.  Then they give them there own area, kinda like the void and OD is currently.  Then us players that want a pvp system can have our pvp.  Without the need for the pure pve player to have to ever see it on the planets.  Again just my opions on what was my favorite part of WF.

There was already a PvP and PvE mash up. Specters and corrupted enemies would attack the rail. I support the idea of the rail planet though. But what about the resources? Would it be limited to just the 4 or would ALL resources drop ? Causing these nodes to become excellent farming nodes. Giving a reason for PvErs and us PvP players a reason to fight on the nodes.

[(XBOX)Warlord Wolfy]

17 minutes ago, (XB1)CFE Discord said:

There was already a PvP and PvE mash up. Specters and corrupted enemies would attack the rail. I support the idea of the rail planet though. But what about the resources? Would it be limited to just the 4 or would ALL resources drop ? Causing these nodes to become excellent farming nodes. Giving a reason for PvErs and us PvP players a reason to fight on the nodes.

Yes, I now there was already a mash up.  I was just pointIng out with an example of another game.  That with a better system it could be possible.  To still have a similar feel to the rails we all loved.  As for resources for our own planet/area.  If they would be the way DE would go with it.  I would hope that DE would make a pole.  For use to give our imput on what would be fair resources.  It supplying all resource would make it the common farming area.  An I have a feeling would just make the pure pve players complain about that.  So why not make it a combination of 4 resources.  That isnt found on any other 1 planet.

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Warlord Wolfy said:

I like the moba idea.  The pvp pve mash up also wouldnt be a bad thing if done properly.  Granted its getting mixed reviews look at Halo 5s Warzone.  It mixs pvp for those that want it and pve in mini bosses.  As for the complants that I read a couple pages ago about this supposed unplayable nodes.  How about DE just removes the dark sectors from every planet.  Then they give them there own area, kinda like the void and OD is currently.  Then us players that want a pvp system can have our pvp.  Without the need for the pure pve player to have to ever see it on the planets.  Again just my opions on what was my favorite part of WF.

I'm a big fan of Halo 5 Warzone as you already know cause we've played lol. I think Warzone is a lot of fun however the drawback to warzone is that it is highly farmable in terms of kills. This is due to the fact that H5 is a very competitive FPS. And while CSR playlists are limited to Arena modes, it bleeds over to the "casual" playlists especially when commendation related rewards are being offered. And I think the major complaint is when guys go in there and get farmed and they can't stop it because Halo 5 is a game that you need absolute coordination if you want your team to succeed above an average level. So you got 12 guys all from Tryhard Company A smashing on a squad of randoms who 2 minutes in already has 3 members leave and the writing is already on the wall. This is what I think the major complaint is. But honestly there's not much anyone can do about it. The nature of the game is it's built for major league competitive play. So just because there is a built-in "casual" mode doesn't mean tryhards won't flood it. This really has nothing to do with what you're saying but since you brought up H5 and Warzone I just thought I'd add my opinion about warzone cause I wanted to talk about it lolol

Warframe on the other hand won't ever have this problem because instead of tryhards we have people who don't even want to pvp or rail to begin with. Instead of guys looking to rank Diamond and Onyx every season we have people who are so afraid of rails that the mere mention of them causes them to panick and liter the forums with uninformed phobic opinions. So we won't ever have to worry about the same type of complaints lolol. Not only do we not have a pvp-centric community in Warframe we have people who are squirmish at the mere mention that they have to fight an actual person and proceed to plead with every last fiber of strength to DE to dumb down PVP to the most basic and simple form so that everyone can kill someone. It's like participation awards. No need to get 1st or 2nd place, cause we're all getting a trophy today. lolol.
 

Edited March 28, 2016 by (XB1)Lorewalker1022

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

16 minutes ago, (XB1)Lorewalker1022 said:

I'm a big fan of Halo 5 Warzone as you already know cause we've played lol. I think Warzone is a lot of fun however the drawback to warzone is that it is highly farmable in terms of kills. This is due to the fact that H5 is a very competitive FPS. And while CSR playlists are limited to Arena modes, it bleeds over to the "casual" playlists especially when commendation related rewards are being offered. And I think the major complaint is when guys go in there and get farmed and they can't stop it because Halo 5 is a game that you need absolute coordination if you want your team to succeed above an average level. So you got 12 guys all from Tryhard Company A smashing on a squad of randoms who 2 minutes in already has 3 members leave and the writing is already on the wall. This is what I think the major complaint is. But honestly there's not much anyone can do about it. The nature of the game is it's built for major league competitive play. So just because there is a built-in "casual" mode doesn't mean tryhards won't flood it. This really has nothing to do with what you're saying but since you brought up H5 and Warzone I just thought I'd add my opinion about warzone cause I wanted to talk about it lolol

Warframe on the other hand won't ever have this problem because instead of tryhards we have people who don't even want to pvp or rail to begin with. Instead of guys looking to rank Diamond and Onyx every season we have people who are so afraid of rails that the mere mention of them causes them to panick and liter the forums with uninformed phobic opinions. So we won't ever have to worry about the same type of complaints lolol. Not only do we not have a pvp-centric community in Warframe we have people who are squirmish at the mere mention that they have to fight an actual person and proceed to plead with every last fiber of strength to DE to dumb down PVP to the most basic and simple form so that everyone can kill someone. It's like participation awards. No need to get 1st or 2nd place, cause we're all getting a trophy today. lolol.
 

That's based TBQH fam. The PvE people in this game throw a fit each time rails are mentioned and then proceed to lie about them so almost nobody but us OG railers will ever know the truth.

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

1 minute ago, (XB1)CFE Discord said:

That's based TBQH fam. The PvE people in this game throw a fit each time rails are mentioned and then proceed to lie about them so almost nobody but us OG railers will ever know the truth.

Yep. All they do is throw fits about something that a lot of them admit they have very little experience in. It's ashame.

[(XBOX)Warlord Wolfy]

Yeah I could have explained why I brought Warzone up better.  The idea behind the mechanic is what truely makes it function.  An well yes you could farm kills on there.  You could do the same on rails and every other pvp mode on other games out there, against lesser skilled players of course.  That though is also the nature of the beast with objective style game modes.