An Objective Look at Trinity

[ShardsSuperior]

Whenever I look at another Trinity thread, the response it invariably a kneejerk reaction against calling to nerf Trinity. It's gotten to the point where "better nerf Trinity" has become a joke. Because of this, it's basically impossible to have a good discussion about where Trinity stands in the game.

What does Trinity actually bring to the squad? 

• The ability to provide energy to players without having to actually kill enemies
• An insta-heal with conditional damage immunity

Since Warframe's entire ability economy is solely based on having enough energy to cast an ability vs. not having enough, Trinity's Energy Vampire effectively means infinite casting.

This is nearly impossible to balance around. It's like having a character in a MOBA who could refresh the entire team's cooldowns constantly, to no cost to himself.  If such a character existed, subsequent characters would no longer have powerful skills with long cooldowns, or would have an mechanic outside cooldowns to limit their casting, or have a built in limitation that meant their cooldown could no longer be refreshed as easily. 
Of course, Warframe is not a MOBA. But you can see the shift in Warframe design away from Nuke abilities:

 Pre-update 13, most frame's 4th abilities felt like an ultimate with strong AoE damage or, in Loki's case, strong CC. Update 13.3 is when Trinity's perma-squad-invincibility with Blessing was removed, and Energy Vampire's effect allowed all the energy to be replenished, even if the target died. 

Then with Update 14, Mesa's Peacemaker arrived, who had to be changed so that she couldn't regain energy from EV while active.
Chroma, Equinox, Atlas, Wukong, Ivara, Nezha, Inaros all have a less powerful interaction with EV. They either don't really need the energy because their skills aren't particularly spammable, or their abilities are hardwired to not allow EV.

While I am all for more interactive abilities, I think any frame that inhibits future frame designs should be looked at. What if there was a really cool ability the the Devs had thought of, but couldn't add it in because it'd be gamebreaking with EV Trinities running loose? Every ability now is built to be spammed, and the frames who weren't built to be spammed are now elevated as gods because of their interactions with EV.

 

The other part of Trinity's kit is Blessing. She can nearly instantly heal everyone to full HP & give damage immunity based on how much she healed. 
Blessing is objectively better than every other heal in the game. In fact, I'm not sure it is POSSIBLE to have a stronger healing skill than Blessing.

Whenever another frame with a heal is released, it is immediately discarded as "not as good as Trinity." This is a ridiculous viewpoint; those frames are good at their own combination of things. However, because of a certain portion of the playerbase who really try to min-max their squad, there's no reason to take those frames over Trinity, and if frames aren't played, there is no reason for them to exist. This once against very much inhibits design. No frame can be released with an ability that is JUST a heal because it'd be useless in a pre-made squad - see Oberon's Renewal.

 

tl;dr: Basically, Trinity's design is objectively terrible. There is evidence to support this in both newer frame designs and in Recruiting chat. But because of the playerbase, nothing will happen to her unless we get over this kneejerk reaction against nerfing her. So don't use the joke, "better nerf Trinity," Trinity needs a hard look at by the Dev, and we have to allow it.

[Inmemoratus]

It's this thread again.

[ShardsSuperior]

Just now, Inmemoratus said:

It's this thread again.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. A kneejerk reaction against actually examining the effects of Trinity on the game. Not constructive in any way. Its only purpose is draw attention from the fact that Trinity is not healthy for the game.

[Inmemoratus]

2 minutes ago, ShardsSuperior said:

This is exactly what I'm talking about. A kneejerk reaction against actually examining the effects of Trinity on the game. Not constructive in any way. Its only purpose is draw attention from the fact that Trinity is not healthy for the game.

Nope it's the same as the other trinity threads and it'll be like 100 pages of the same people saying the same things as they say in other trinity threads.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Inmemoratus

[ShardsSuperior]

Just now, Inmemoratus said:

Nope it's the same as the other trinity threads and it'll be like 100 pages of the same people saying the same things as they say in other trinity threads.

:/ I feel like posts that say "It's this thread again" are part of that problem.

[Inmemoratus]

1 minute ago, ShardsSuperior said:

:/ I feel like posts that say "It's this thread again" are part of that problem.

But I mean everyone knows where they stand on this topic. She's been the same forever and it's been one of the most highly discussed topics.

[ShardsSuperior]

Just now, Inmemoratus said:

But I mean everyone knows where they stand on this topic. She's been the same forever and it's been one of the most highly discussed topics.

I know. But the point of this asking people to reconsider. That's why it's an *objective* look.

Honestly, I know that people are unlikely to change their opinions. It's like American politics. 
The thing is, I don't think a reasonable feedback forum for a game SHOULD act like that.

[Hellmaker2004]

1 hour ago, ShardsSuperior said:

A lot.

Although you are not wrong about Energy Vampire on Trinity, but as long as energy can be obtained with all our current methods ( Pickups, Pizza's Zenurik and if Mag goes trough she will be part of it as well) this is all but a null point, the problem that exist is not because of Trinity, it will exist even if they remove it from her and the only way to "fix" this is either assume that we will power spam (make foes more resistant than they are). Or actually make energy a resource you have to manage.

 

And about her Blessing, yes she is arguably the best healer, (Although Iranos can now with certain "teamwork" provide insane healing as long as allies do not kill the debuffed foes). This is however everything she has, true it is a lot stronger than all other healing skills but what they lack are not healing number, like Iranos they are situational and require allies to play around you skills and therefore it is much more reliable to press a button and ~1 second later full heal. Ratter than learning what targets to not kill and stay close to, what targets to kill fast or in Oberon's case he need to lead the healing before allies take damage and that by itself is a terrible design in late game where damage is recived in burst.

People keep saying that we need to look at Trinity with new eyes and objectively and sure i will look at her energy giving skill once a few changes have been made in the game.

"

Rework drop rate of Energy orbs and health orbs. Decrease Energy orbs drops.

Pizza's have a cool-down.

And Zenurik get Nerfed.

Maximum efficiency one can reach with both the normal and the corrupt mod is at best 150%

"

 

If those conditions are meet i will agree that Trinity especially the negative Duration Energy Vampire needs to get a sever look at. But to me it seems like they are adding more frames and tools to compete with Trinity in energy ratter than reduce the amount of energy we have at our disposal.

And a bigger issue with Trinity before we even should worry about the Energy gain is the self damage "exploits" people use to ignore a part of the game by a numeric value of 99.6% This if anything is what needs to be fixed.

[blaes]

the thing is, you try to compare this game with mobas (or equivalents), where both teams are approximately of equal strength, fights take some time and the natural behaviour is to struggle.

but warframe is nothing like that. if you want a fair comparison, it would be a hack and slash or a beat'em all, where you rofl-stomp hordes of enemies at a fast pace without ever stopping.

[Feallike]

Their are basically 2 things that need to happen to EV to make it not stupidly OP:

1.) Killing a enemy early DOESN'T give full energy value. If you want energy you better wait. (Their that is 90% of exploiting fixed)

2.) EV no longer effects Trinity only her allies.

She is a support frame she is supporting not buffing. NO ability should ever counteract its own cost that is stupid. For EV to ever be fair it needs to not effect trinity and only her allies. These changes would ruin Draco farming, and also severally nerf trinity as being the best support frame allowing other frames to take her role.

 

Blessing also needs 2 changes:

REDUCE ITS RANGE DRASTICALLY. It is super good but doesn't need infinite range, now that she isn't stupidly OP with EV this skill is more on the fair side so just make its range about 10 fully ranked. This forces players to stay together if they even want the benefit and is a buff for Inaros and Oberon.

2. SELF DAMAGE DOESN'T COUNT TOWARD BLESSING. This is stupid no need to explain.

 

She NEEDS a rework but these are 2 changes that would take 5 minutes to implement since the DE loves to tweak frames rather then rework them.

[PsiWarp]

Indeed, the problem is that Trinity's an enabler of spam. She enables her team to endlessly cast abilities by providing large quantities of energy repeatedly as long as an enemy is alive (then often promptly killed to yield high energy in an instant) when her team is in range to receive. There is no need to strategically/tactically use abilities when you can do it again and again anytime between playtime and extraction.

What's more, Trinity herself is a caster-type Warframe that thrives on spamming; she needs to keep using abilities to support her team and survive. This is why I'm an advocate of a charge-based system built into new Energy Vampire changes, that have in-built anti-team-spam restrictions in place but allow Trinity to freely cast as she needs. I suggested one such example in my thread here, alongside many sweeping changes for Trinity as a whole:

 

[Hellmaker2004]

22 minutes ago, Feallike said:

Their are basically 2 things that need to happen to EV to make it not stupidly OP:

1.) Killing a enemy early DOESN'T give full energy value. If you want energy you better wait. (Their that is 90% of exploiting fixed)

2.) EV no longer effects Trinity only her allies.

She is a support frame she is supporting not buffing. NO ability should ever counteract its own cost that is stupid. For EV to ever be fair it needs to not effect trinity and only her allies. These changes would ruin Draco farming, and also severally nerf trinity as being the best support frame allowing other frames to take her role.

 

Blessing also needs 2 changes:

REDUCE ITS RANGE DRASTICALLY. It is super good but doesn't need infinite range, now that she isn't stupidly OP with EV this skill is more on the fair side so just make its range about 10 fully ranked. This forces players to stay together if they even want the benefit and is a buff for Inaros and Oberon.

2. SELF DAMAGE DOESN'T COUNT TOWARD BLESSING. This is stupid no need to explain.

 

She NEEDS a rework but these are 2 changes that would take 5 minutes to implement since the DE loves to tweak frames rather then rework them.

 

EV

1: Is how it used to be, it was changed for a very good reason. It was very ineffective, it caused massive toxic behavior towards both Trinity users for not EV the "right" targets, and damage frames were directly making it worse by automatically killing VIP's.

2: Ev no longer affecting Trinity would only mean that the Trinity would have to substitute it with Zenurik or with the help of pizza's nothing that can can't already be done and is in fact done often.

 

Blessing

1: Blessing does not need a range reduction, it is in fact the only thing that can even come close to behave as a correct healing skill in a fast paced game such as this. It would promote stacking instead of being mobile and if anything the other heals need to learn something after blessing how healing should be. You even compare it towards Inaros who not only can in theory heal every other frame (except himself) more effectively than Blessing but his spell also stuns all the foes as well.

2: I agree completely

[torint_man]

I made this long shpeel in a thread just like this, so I'm copy-pasting it to here, and made a few modifications.

Right now, Trinity is dominant in the team healing niche, with the only competition being oberon, equinox, and maybe nekros. She is alone in the team energy restoration niche, and has the best damage resistance (DR) potential in the game. However, she can't be all three at once. An EV trin can fulfill the team healing and restoration niche, but not the DR niche. A bless trin fulfills the healing and DR niche, but struggles with the energy niche, as her range is borked by narrow minded, and she doesn't have enough mod slots for strength. Now, I think the most important thing to consider is that she basically needs a team built around her to succeed in higher levels. IMO, her abilities reward setting up a team. In a random PUG, her abilities are still wonderfully effective, don't get me wrong, but in order to get the OP team setups that go to 2 hours or 100 waves, the team needs to fill the niches she doesn't fill. 

She has little CC, and sure, her 1-2 wombo combo does scale infinitely, but so does Inaros's pocket sand with covert lethality, which works much faster (Before you say that you can't finish some enemies, recently moas and ancients can be finished) (The only way to have a wombo combo that's less than 5 seconds requires an EV trin, and by the time the wombo combo becomes viable, the enemy damage is so high, you need a bless trin or naramon). She needs other frames with her to provide the killing power and CC. But don't get me wrong, her abilities are still so powerful on their own that even in the sortie 3 level, she can carry a PUG by herself (A blessing trin is more likely to do that than an EV trin).

Now I will analyze the two trin builds to determine what makes them powerful, and why they are often considered OP. Let's start with the bless trin. The ability of DR is not unique to trin, just they don't apply to the whole team. Iron skin, shatter shield, turbulence, and hysteria are all examples of this. If all the other DR abilities didn't apply to the whole team, that wouldn't be okay, as no other frame could fill the niche. However, she is arguably outdone by limbo. Literal 100% invincibility for a full minute, and abilities are still able to be used. A limbo plus ash could go for hours against grineer, and adding an EB excal would extend that to the void. But let's not get sidetracked with comparisons. The 99% DR is only considered OP because the enemies effectiveness at dealing damage scales much faster than their ability to take it. Damage 3.0 might or might not fix that, but if it did, the DR would simply become unnecessary, with CC being just as effective at filling the "not making the team die" niche. Also, with enemy health being higher, damage augmenting abilities would be much more desirable, shifting the meta in favor of EV. That would make EV trin OP right?

IMO, it would not. I do not think that EV trin is OP at all. In most situations, even in wave 100/2 hours, she is simply unnecessary(Except in LoR, due to the bombs taking so much energy to charge, and RJ excals in draco). The focus meta is basically all zenurik and naramon, with naramon being used in solo situations, and zenurik in team situations. 4 energy per second is hard to outspend, especially when using efficiency mods, and the fact that enemies drop energy orbs. Also in the rare emergency, we always have energy pizzas. EV trin does not allow the game to be broken in ways we don't already, so, IMO, she is not OP.

On the topic of removing the ability to allow self damage for the damage reduction on bless, it wouldn't change anything, because I can always either get teammates to get damaged by enemies, or get damaged by enemies myself, which is perfectly safe because of melee blocking and link. Even getting a 90% bless would still be enough for the vast majority of situations.

IMO, in order for an ability to be considered OP, it has to allow something highly desirable that can't be done without it, or not anywhere near as well. It must greatly outdo the large majority of abilities in its niche. EV trin is not OP by this definition because we have zenurik and energy plates. In current energy economy meta, EV is largely unnecessary due to how rare it is to outspend a passive 4 energy per second.  Bless trin is OP by this definition, as the only competition it has is limbo, and I don't see anyone saying "Limbo OP". 

At the end of the day, I don't think trinity should be changed right now. With damage 3.0 on the way, any changes to her blessing should be after damage 3.0 drops, not before. Her EV does not need changes because it doesn't allow trivialization of the energy economy in ways we can't do already, because zenurik and pizzas.

[torint_man]

1 hour ago, Feallike said:

2.) EV no longer effects Trinity only her allies.

Never, under any circumstances, should an ability apply its effect exclusively to allies and not to the caster in a game like warframe. If that change was made, if she was playing solo, EV wouldn't do anything, so she'd have an ability that did literally nothing for her. If you made it affect herself only when playing solo, it would be arbitrary as hell(which interferes with immersion), and just not make sense from a lore/"physics of the warframe universe" standpoint. If you made it so it only gives you the energy it took you to cast it, EV would still be useless in solo play. 

This suggestion is not an option for the devs to take in modifying EV.

Also, I don't consider EV to be OP anyways because the energy economy's meta right now is all zenurik. EV in the great majority of situations is simply unnecessary, as it's difficult to practically use abilities often enough to outspend 4 energy per second, and even if it did, enemies drop energy orbs, making up for the difference 

Edited March 24, 2016 by torint_man

[torint_man]

1 hour ago, Feallike said:

2. SELF DAMAGE DOESN'T COUNT TOWARD BLESSING. This is stupid no need to explain.

Forgive me for triple posting and copy pasting a paragraph from my shpeel, I just want this to be seen in its own post.

On the topic of removing the ability to allow self damage for the damage reduction on bless, it wouldn't change anything, because I can always either get teammates to get damaged by enemies for me, or get damaged by enemies myself, which is perfectly safe and easy because of melee blocking and link. Even getting a 90% bless would still be enough for the vast majority of situations.

Edited March 24, 2016 by torint_man

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

Or just remove the restrictions. People want spammable nukes that kill the whole map. Stop ruining the godlike feel of the game. 

As for blessing, just hard cap damage reduction at 50%.

[Mmmeep]

2 things to balance Trinity.

1. Remove duration from EV or make it the opposite effect of what it is now.

2. Bless is affected by range. 

Do this and Trinity is still objectively the best support class in the game, but isn't nerfed to obsolescence.

[ShardsSuperior]

1 hour ago, blaes said:

the thing is, you try to compare this game with mobas (or equivalents), where both teams are approximately of equal strength, fights take some time and the natural behaviour is to struggle.

but warframe is nothing like that. if you want a fair comparison, it would be a hack and slash or a beat'em all, where you rofl-stomp hordes of enemies at a fast pace without ever stopping.

Nothing about the MOBA aspect matters. Just how design of subsequent frames has had to change because of it, which is the sign of a feature unhealthy for the game. It limits future designs.

10 minutes ago, torint_man said:

*snip*

I would like to make a distinction between calling "OP" and calling unhealthy.

If she only restored 25 energy per pop or something weird like that, there would be no way anyone would call it OP. But it still wouldn't be healthy.

The thing about Zenurik is because it's still a trickle instead of instantly getting 200 energy. While Energy Pads (theoretically) can be run out. 
And besides, neither is as ubiquitous as the LF EV Trin in recruit.

[NeomanSeraph]

It's impossible to be "objective" on an issue OP. Don't chase that white whale.

Don't nerf Trin. Buff non-Trin frames to have Trin-level healing

Also Trin is a staple of RAID CONTENT. A lack of Bless' damage reduction would immediately bottleneck the frame selection (I mean the LoR switch puzzle in particular here), which is equally unhealthy to the game and would inspire even more elitism.

[AlteredGenetics]

i want to say just one thing :

 

you can't solo anything with trinity.

 

(and don't tell me ''oh yeah ? check my build i link and i blablabl'' no. that's trying hard to achieve something whereas the purpose of a game with different characters is to just pick a character for what they are. not doing EVERYTHING you can to turn said character into a somewhat viable something-else)

 

her kit isn't design for solo play. you almost have no 1. your 2 well.. if you have the energy why spend it to gain it back right ? unless you want it for cc worst case scenario. your 3 is good. and 4 is all right, can save you but still mediocre compared to other kits (take ash for example)

for this and sole reason you cannot compare trinity on the same scale as the rest.

 

now. hear my counter argument on your thesis that she is ''unhealthy for the game'' (because of the reasons you mentioned) :

 

think of all the beautiful things she achieves. the very fact that she gives infinite energy (the very fact you consider she 'breaks' the game in a way) opens up this one discussion : TEAM COMPOSITION. you know you have a trinity who will give you infinite energy ? sweet. how about you use that full duration slow nova whose molecular prime costs half your energy pool ? or how about you make a cheesy team where you have a rhino spamming rhino stomp with max range and strength not caring about efficiency. whatever. you get the point. TEAMWORK. not that any other frame prevents this in any way, don't get me wrong. not at all. but the very fact that you don't care about energy lets you pick whichever you want. now think about going for example blind mirrage or slow nova on a sortie interception without either a trinity or 250 energy restores. think about it.

[torint_man]

Just now, ShardsSuperior said:

I would like to make a distinction between calling "OP" and calling unhealthy.

If she only restored 25 energy per pop or something weird like that, there would be no way anyone would call it OP. But it still wouldn't be healthy.

The thing about Zenurik is because it's still a trickle instead of instantly getting 200 energy. While Energy Pads (theoretically) can be run out. 
And besides, neither is as ubiquitous as the LF EV Trin in recruit.

Sure, 4 energy per second is technically a trickle compared to 200 energy a pop, BUT, there are very, very few situations I can think of that require(literally require) more energy than the energy economy that zenurik provides(The only situations I can think of are energy reduction sorties, RJ spam on draco, and sonar spam in high level defense/survival). Also, in high level team play, zenurik is ubiquitous. Why do I make this assertion? Because there are only really two viable focuses for endgame, zenurik and naramon, with the latter mainly being a selfish one delegated primarily to 2 hour solo survivals. In optimized team situations, everyone uses zenurik.

It wouldn't matter if EV did 100 or 1000 a pop, it would fulfill the exact same niche that it already does, always having energy. With zenurik's prevalence, the majority of the time that niche is already filled. EV is as unhealthy as zenurik's passive 4 energy per second is(whatever you're opinion on that is).

[AlteredGenetics]

2 hours ago, torint_man said:

I made this long shpeel in a thread just like this, so I'm copy-pasting it to here, and made a few modifications.

Right now, Trinity is dominant in the team healing niche, with the only competition being oberon, equinox, and maybe nekros. She is alone in the team energy restoration niche, and has the best damage resistance (DR) potential in the game. However, she can't be all three at once. An EV trin can fulfill the team healing and restoration niche, but not the DR niche. A bless trin fulfills the healing and DR niche, but struggles with the energy niche, as her range is borked by narrow minded, and she doesn't have enough mod slots for strength. Now, I think the most important thing to consider is that she basically needs a team built around her to succeed in higher levels. IMO, her abilities reward setting up a team. In a random PUG, her abilities are still wonderfully effective, don't get me wrong, but in order to get the OP team setups that go to 2 hours or 100 waves, the team needs to fill the niches she doesn't fill. 

She has little CC, and sure, her 1-2 wombo combo does scale infinitely, but so does Inaros's pocket sand with covert lethality, which works much faster (Before you say that you can't finish some enemies, recently moas and ancients can be finished) (The only way to have a wombo combo that's less than 5 seconds requires an EV trin, and by the time the wombo combo becomes viable, the enemy damage is so high, you need a bless trin or naramon). She needs other frames with her to provide the killing power and CC. But don't get me wrong, her abilities are still so powerful on their own that even in the sortie 3 level, she can carry a PUG by herself (A blessing trin is more likely to do that than an EV trin).

Now I will analyze the two trin builds to determine what makes them powerful, and why they are often considered OP. Let's start with the bless trin. The ability of DR is not unique to trin, just they don't apply to the whole team. Iron skin, shatter shield, turbulence, and hysteria are all examples of this. If all the other DR abilities didn't apply to the whole team, that wouldn't be okay, as no other frame could fill the niche. However, she is arguably outdone by limbo. Literal 100% invincibility for a full minute, and abilities are still able to be used. A limbo plus ash could go for hours against grineer, and adding an EB excal would extend that to the void. But let's not get sidetracked with comparisons. The 99% DR is only considered OP because the enemies effectiveness at dealing damage scales much faster than their ability to take it. Damage 3.0 might or might not fix that, but if it did, the DR would simply become unnecessary, with CC being just as effective at filling the "not making the team die" niche. Also, with enemy health being higher, damage augmenting abilities would be much more desirable, shifting the meta in favor of EV. That would make EV trin OP right?

IMO, it would not. I do not think that EV trin is OP at all. In most situations, even in wave 100/2 hours, she is simply unnecessary(Except in LoR, due to the bombs taking so much energy to charge, and RJ excals in draco). The focus meta is basically all zenurik and naramon, with naramon being used in solo situations, and zenurik in team situations. 4 energy per second is hard to outspend, especially when using efficiency mods, and the fact that enemies drop energy orbs. Also in the rare emergency, we always have energy pizzas. EV trin does not allow the game to be broken in ways we don't already, so, IMO, she is not OP.

On the topic of removing the ability to allow self damage for the damage reduction on bless, it wouldn't change anything, because I can always either get teammates to get damaged by enemies, or get damaged by enemies myself, which is perfectly safe because of melee blocking and link. Even getting a 90% bless would still be enough for the vast majority of situations.

IMO, in order for an ability to be considered OP, it has to allow something highly desirable that can't be done without it, or not anywhere near as well. It must greatly outdo the large majority of abilities in its niche. EV trin is not OP by this definition because we have zenurik and energy plates. In current energy economy meta, EV is largely unnecessary due to how rare it is to outspend a passive 4 energy per second.  Bless trin is OP by this definition, as the only competition it has is limbo, and I don't see anyone saying "Limbo OP". 

At the end of the day, I don't think trinity should be changed right now. With damage 3.0 on the way, any changes to her blessing should be after damage 3.0 drops, not before. Her EV does not need changes because it doesn't allow trivialization of the energy economy in ways we can't do already, because zenurik and pizzas.

 

 

ok i think that this guy said everything. honestly the best, most accurate analysis i've seen in a long time

[Hellmaker2004]

35 minutes ago, Mmmeep said:

2 things to balance Trinity.

1. Remove duration from EV or make it the opposite effect of what it is now.

2. Bless is affected by range. 

Do this and Trinity is still objectively the best support class in the game, but isn't nerfed to obsolescence.

 

With Inaros during solo i can reach around 1000 HPs for a maximum of 18 seconds reliably at only 100% Power strength before we calculate enemy armor. This is to every allie  within 24 meter and it will also stuns the hostiles effected for ~18 seconds. Do you want to know why it is almost worthless even though it heals for a ridiculous amount, It has a limited range and the mobs need to be alive for it to work.

The problem is not the amount most of the frames do heal, it is how they heal with it. Most of them have ridiculous conditions that need to be meet in order to achieve healing. Some of them have very small range, most of them require mobs, this is the problem the other healers have. Removing range from Trinity will only leave her in the same spot the other healers have, and that is a very frustrating position where either you allies are hindering your healing by killing foes to fast or that whenever you use your healing it has no effect because they are outside of range.

 

Inaros may not need a range improvement considering he can with only base strength reach a ridiculous amount of healing per second for almost no energy cost, his problem however is that whenever you attempt to heal the hostiles will die shortly after from a allie.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Hellmaker2004

[Mmmeep]

13 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

 

With Inaros during solo i can reach around 1000 HPs for a maximum of 18 seconds reliably at only 100% Power strength before we calculate enemy armor. This is to every allie  within 24 meter and it will also stuns the hostiles effected for ~18 seconds. Do you want to know why it is almost worthless even though it heals for a ridiculous amount, It has a limited range and the mobs need to be alive for it to work.

The problem is not the amount most of the frames do heal, it is how they heal with it. Most of them have ridiculous conditions that need to be meet in order to achieve healing. Some of them have very small range, most of them require mobs, this is the problem the other healers have. Removing range from Trinity will only leave her in the same spot the other healers have, and that is a very frustrating position where either you allies are hindering your healing by killing foes to fast or that whenever you use your healing it has no effect because they are outside of range.

 

Inaros may not need a range improvement considering he can with only base strength reach a ridiculous amount of healing per second for almost no energy cost, his problem however is that whenever you attempt to heal the hostiles will die shortly after from a allie.

Some effect by range would be be best. Current healers practically all need buffs but that's another topic. Bless needs range. Not cripplingly small range but some range. The same range that EV currently is. Blessing allies from 3 tiles over is blatantly OP. 

Trinity is stupidly easy to play, even in NM LoR.

[ShardsSuperior]

1 hour ago, torint_man said:

Sure, 4 energy per second is technically a trickle compared to 200 energy a pop, BUT, there are very, very few situations I can think of that require(literally require) more energy than the energy economy that zenurik provides(The only situations I can think of are energy reduction sorties, RJ spam on draco, and sonar spam in high level defense/survival). Also, in high level team play, zenurik is ubiquitous. Why do I make this assertion? Because there are only really two viable focuses for endgame, zenurik and naramon, with the latter mainly being a selfish one delegated primarily to 2 hour solo survivals. In optimized team situations, everyone uses zenurik.

It wouldn't matter if EV did 100 or 1000 a pop, it would fulfill the exact same niche that it already does, always having energy. With zenurik's prevalence, the majority of the time that niche is already filled. EV is as unhealthy as zenurik's passive 4 energy per second is(whatever you're opinion on that is).

The point is there's still a cap at how much you can spam because 4 energy/second means you still need ~7 seconds to cast a 25 energy skill. Besides, it's also deactivated during almost all channeled abilities. Besides, You could reach 2.4 energy/second from nearly the very beginning of the game with 4x Energy Siphon and DE still created frames with powerful abilities. The point is that there is still a limit to the spam. You have a 300 energy pool without Primed Flow with most frames, which is still a limited number of casts, even with an in-trickle of energy.

3 hours ago, torint_man said:

I made this long shpeel in a thread just like this, so I'm copy-pasting it to here, and made a few modifications.

Right now, Trinity is dominant in the team healing niche, with the only competition being oberon, equinox, and maybe nekros. She is alone in the team energy restoration niche, and has the best damage resistance (DR) potential in the game. However, she can't be all three at once. An EV trin can fulfill the team healing and restoration niche, but not the DR niche. A bless trin fulfills the healing and DR niche, but struggles with the energy niche, as her range is borked by narrow minded, and she doesn't have enough mod slots for strength. Now, I think the most important thing to consider is that she basically needs a team built around her to succeed in higher levels. IMO, her abilities reward setting up a team. In a random PUG, her abilities are still wonderfully effective, don't get me wrong, but in order to get the OP team setups that go to 2 hours or 100 waves, the team needs to fill the niches she doesn't fill. 

She has little CC, and sure, her 1-2 wombo combo does scale infinitely, but so does Inaros's pocket sand with covert lethality, which works much faster (Before you say that you can't finish some enemies, recently moas and ancients can be finished) (The only way to have a wombo combo that's less than 5 seconds requires an EV trin, and by the time the wombo combo becomes viable, the enemy damage is so high, you need a bless trin or naramon). She needs other frames with her to provide the killing power and CC. But don't get me wrong, her abilities are still so powerful on their own that even in the sortie 3 level, she can carry a PUG by herself (A blessing trin is more likely to do that than an EV trin).

Now I will analyze the two trin builds to determine what makes them powerful, and why they are often considered OP. Let's start with the bless trin. The ability of DR is not unique to trin, just they don't apply to the whole team. Iron skin, shatter shield, turbulence, and hysteria are all examples of this. If all the other DR abilities didn't apply to the whole team, that wouldn't be okay, as no other frame could fill the niche. However, she is arguably outdone by limbo. Literal 100% invincibility for a full minute, and abilities are still able to be used. A limbo plus ash could go for hours against grineer, and adding an EB excal would extend that to the void. But let's not get sidetracked with comparisons. The 99% DR is only considered OP because the enemies effectiveness at dealing damage scales much faster than their ability to take it. Damage 3.0 might or might not fix that, but if it did, the DR would simply become unnecessary, with CC being just as effective at filling the "not making the team die" niche. Also, with enemy health being higher, damage augmenting abilities would be much more desirable, shifting the meta in favor of EV. That would make EV trin OP right?

IMO, it would not. I do not think that EV trin is OP at all. In most situations, even in wave 100/2 hours, she is simply unnecessary(Except in LoR, due to the bombs taking so much energy to charge, and RJ excals in draco). The focus meta is basically all zenurik and naramon, with naramon being used in solo situations, and zenurik in team situations. 4 energy per second is hard to outspend, especially when using efficiency mods, and the fact that enemies drop energy orbs. Also in the rare emergency, we always have energy pizzas. EV trin does not allow the game to be broken in ways we don't already, so, IMO, she is not OP.

...

IMO, in order for an ability to be considered OP, it has to allow something highly desirable that can't be done without it, or not anywhere near as well. It must greatly outdo the large majority of abilities in its niche. EV trin is not OP by this definition because we have zenurik and energy plates. In current energy economy meta, EV is largely unnecessary due to how rare it is to outspend a passive 4 energy per second.  Bless trin is OP by this definition, as the only competition it has is limbo, and I don't see anyone saying "Limbo OP". 

At the end of the day, I don't think trinity should be changed right now. With damage 3.0 on the way, any changes to her blessing should be after damage 3.0 drops, not before. Her EV does not need changes because it doesn't allow trivialization of the energy economy in ways we can't do already, because zenurik and pizzas.

I actually do no understand what you are arguing Just because there are other methods of slowly regaining energy makes a method where you instantly fill up your reserves not OP? Zenurik is only a trickle, with a guaranteed pause between hard spamming, and pizzas (theoretically) can run out.

That's just like saying that because the cops can look the other way for speeding 5 miles above the speed limit, it's okay to commit hit and run. It just doesn't work out.