Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Xardis

(Resolved) Issue with Steam Tennogen skins on Prime frames

Recommended Posts

kitsu    471
2 minutes ago, MathiasGrim said:

well i want a bloody refund or an option to have it stay because i bought multiple tennogen skins for the primes as they were and this is effectively throwing my money in the dumpster. Thanks mate

Hey, if worse comes to worse, you should be able to report this to valve, since it uses their system. Legally, when you purchased those skins, you got them for how they worked, bugged or not. Now it is debatable if DE can or can not do this, but I think it be better to have valve come in and decided on this if DE chooses not to put a toggle option in. Its one thing to change systems that uses plat, its another when it uses actual cash, and a 2nd provider.

This kind of reminds me of how DE handled Excalibur prime and his primed goods.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Drakanius1    17

I think all the controversy is swirling around this issue would be alleviated if someone from DE would explain the problems with what we want to us. It seems that the solution we have been presented is based on what they can presently do with how the models/designs function. Yet that solution seems to increase the divide on what we actually want. You have people that just want an end to the clipping of models for their own sanity, another side that wants the choice to customize how they want, and maybe even people like me that just want a happy medium where everything flows together. The way I see it (and I hope someone can correct me if I'm wrong) prime frames are customs of the originals. Though they have the capacity to be re-skinned, because of all of the permanent bells and whistles, you're still playing a mash-up game with tennogen skins, hoping it comes out looking alright.

The bottom line is, we as paying players would like a little more control when it comes to customizing our prime frames with content that wasn't specifically made for them. And this is the problem. DE's solution is to make it so that your prime frames look as the new skin intended rather than the mashup we've come to expect and in some cases hope for. Because Primes are derived from their original models, this seems a lot simpler than potentially redesigning all of the primes nearly from the bottom up to better reflect the original and allow for further customization.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Paroxen    21

So presuming a toggle isn't going to be made.
Couldn't the Tennogen creators make two variants of the skin?
One that has the prime bits in mind (clipping, model differences, etc.) and the original?
And if they don't want to, then just give refunds to those of us who want one.
I mean, if really isn't possible to make a toggle like you claim DE, surely this is a good compromise?

Or at the very least, add two duplicate skins in the menu?

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Xardis    1,816
33 minutes ago, Drakanius1 said:

I think all the controversy is swirling around this issue would be alleviated if someone from DE would explain the problems with what we want to us. It seems that the solution we have been presented is based on what they can presently do with how the models/designs function. Yet that solution seems to increase the divide on what we actually want.

The solution most of us want, optional prime details, is possible. The heart of it is how much work does it require and is it worth implementing to DE. A dialoge about it would prove very constructive. Right now we are throwing stuff at a wall with a hole that we dont know the shape.

One idea was to just force normal models but, right now, I, and many other people came to the conclusion that it should be the last resort. It would be fine if it was implemented a few days after Tennogen program started, in that way people would know it and wouldnt buy skins in the first place. And other would.

Another one was to add a option to change models on frame by frame basis but as we now know, its very hard to implement due to technical limitaions of the code supporting that part of the game. We dont know exacly what is the problem.

And finaly, make it a option in the menu options akin to colour one, 2 separate filters. That one would work analogus. All Tennogens you see would force frame image on your side to normal model or all would be as they are now. I proposed it very resently and we dont know if it would be easier to implement than 2nd solution.

Right now, I do belive, we need a dialoge on this issue. Forcing normal models would give lots of people a reason to buy skins but also take that reason away from other group of people. We should try to go for 2nd but the 3rd is, at least in my eyes, more realistic. The 1st should be the last resort and as such, only if there is no other way to implement less intrusive solution it should not be attempted. People who want to buy clean skins can wait, they have only to gain, as oposed to the people who have the skins and want the the way they are.

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[DE]Taylor    4,631
16 hours ago, Dequire said:

Glad you're taking note of problems and taking action against them, but, this isn't an all or nothing problem.

In terms of technical implementation, it might be. "Just add a toggle" does not do justice to how complex this request is for the Devs to implement in-game, but we absolutely want to make sure that we can find a solution for everyone. I have passed on your guys' feedback to the Devs and the team is discussing yet again how viable a toggle option would be, but I cannot make any promises.

  • Upvote 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Stalker_Cake    623
1 minute ago, [DE]Taylor said:

In terms of technical implementation, it might be. "Just add a toggle" does not do justice to how complex this request is, but we absolutely want to make sure that we can find a solution for everyone. I have passed on your guys' feedback to the Devs and the team is discussing yet again how viable a toggle option would be, but I cannot make any promises.

i think we can wait a litle longer to get the toggle option, if that is possible

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
NightmareT12    6,220
1 hour ago, [DE]Taylor said:

In terms of technical implementation, it might be. "Just add a toggle" does not do justice to how complex this request is, but we absolutely want to make sure that we can find a solution for everyone. I have passed on your guys' feedback to the Devs and the team is discussing yet again how viable a toggle option would be, but I cannot make any promises.

Taylor, it's pretty easy (requires some hard coding, I know). Make everyone be able to choose the non-Prime mesh (basically use the normal variation that already exists in the game for non-Primes) or the Prime mesh. It makes it possible, it doesn't require changes to Prime models, avoiding issues with animations and placement due stretching (unlike how armor had to be treated).

You'll need a new UI space right above the "Body"/"Skin" we currently have though.

Just include the mesh and not the textures though. No non-Prime unless it's a skin if you get what I mean ;P

EDIT: Just to make it clear though: I don't want to see a single Prime Warframe with issues in the extra bits where there normally wouldn't be. If I see a single bit becoming a different part from the mesh just like how Armor was treated because some people wanted to use skins in a way not actually intended... I'm going to be really frustrated honestly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[DE]Taylor    4,631
Just now, NightmareT12 said:

Taylor, it's pretty easy. Make everyone be able to choose the non-Prime mesh (basically use the normal variation that already exists in the game for non-Primes) or the Prime mesh. It makes it possible, it doesn't require changes to Prime models, avoiding issues with animations and placement due stretching (unlike how armor had to be treated).

Just include the mesh and not the textures though. No non-Prime unless it's a skin if you get what I mean ;P

If it was that simple, I assure you the team would have already done it.

  • Upvote 11

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
NightmareT12    6,220
Just now, [DE]Taylor said:

If it was that simple, I assure you the team would have already done it.

I know, I actually stated it. But I wanted to emphasaize on separate mesh >>>>>>>>>> toggle parts of a mesh like armor.

The better solutions are after all the hardest to implement, for a reason or another. Freaking life ;w;

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Geraion    225
1 hour ago, [DE]Taylor said:

In terms of technical implementation, it might be. "Just add a toggle" does not do justice to how complex this request is, but we absolutely want to make sure that we can find a solution for everyone. I have passed on your guys' feedback to the Devs and the team is discussing yet again how viable a toggle option would be, but I cannot make any promises.

How is it a problem?

The current models now clearly don't cover the primed attachments on a frame that has them. So. Since the skins are made with the base model in mind, then why is it difficult to just not mess around with the current model, and simply add a variant path to the base model w/o the primed attachments? That would make -everyone- happy, instead of pissing off some people, and attracting maybe some other people who didn't like the prime parts. Atm it's a win/lose instead of a win/win that *is* possible...

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
NightmareT12    6,220
Just now, Geraion said:

How is it a problem?

The current models now clearly don't cover the primed attachments on a frame that has them. So. Since the skins are made with the base model in mind, then why is it difficult to just not mess around with the current model, and simply add a variant path to the base model w/o the primed attachments? That would make -everyone- happy, instead of pissing off some people, and attracting maybe some other people who didn't like the prime parts. Atm it's a win/lose instead of a win/win that *is* possible...

Simply put the engine isn't thought for that.

Long story: Prime Warframes usually have extra bits added on top of the mesh, yes... But they're all part of a single mesh piece unless:

a) It's armor
b) It's something like Nekros Prime's wings

That means they'd have to, in case they ever implement something like this, either:

a) Take every single extra bit, separate it from the mesh, separate the textures and channel tints file, make a new UI toggle, prepare the right code for that. Then, you'd have a model that unlike now, wouldn't be completely cohesive when moving because the extra bits wouldn't stretch anymore with animations and instead move on the supposed "glued" part.

b) Do what I said (make a new UI button, put a selectable mesh), which would require some quite coding efforts (and I guess it's got to be a lot because the game was thought so it loaded the mesh in another way). It would yield the better results, but the programmers are in for some fun rides. Where fun isn't actual fun.

I think that should sum up why the "best" outcome for DE was to force the intended model for it, just like the Deluxe skins.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Geraion    225
Just now, NightmareT12 said:

Simply put the engine isn't thought for that.

Long story: Prime Warframes usually have extra bits added on top of the mesh, yes... But they're all part of a single mesh piece unless:

a) It's armor
b) It's something like Nekros Prime's wings

That means they'd have to, in case they ever implement something like this, either:

a) Take every single extra bit, separate it from the mesh, separate the textures and channel tints file, make a new UI toggle, prepare the right code for that. Then, you'd have a model that unlike now, wouldn't be completely cohesive when moving because the extra bits wouldn't stretch anymore with animations and instead move on the supposed "glued" part.

b) Do what I said (make a new UI button, put a selectable mesh), which would require some quite coding efforts (and I guess it's got to be a lot because the game was thought so it loaded the mesh in another way). It would yield the better results, but the programmers are in for some fun rides. Where fun isn't actual fun.

I think that should sum up why the "best" outcome for DE was to force the intended model for it, just like the Deluxe skins.

Yes, you have prime models, and a basic model. How is it difficult to create a toggle between the models, not just toggling the primed parts themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
NightmareT12    6,220
1 minute ago, Geraion said:

Yes, you have prime models, and a basic model. How is it difficult to create a toggle between the models, not just toggling the primed parts themselves.

Again: Because the engine is built around making/associating them in a way that didn't at any point foresee this. You've got to tell it to call in the right items without loading the textures and stuff I guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Geraion    225
5 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

Again: Because the engine is built around making/associating them in a way that didn't at any point foresee this. You've got to tell it to call in the right items without loading the textures and stuff I guess.

So tell it to use the entire prime model if you like the prime bits with your skin, or tell it to use the vanilla non-prime model if you don't like the prime...with a toggle. The stats will still be the same...so it's just a model swap, which already exists with Proto Excal skin and Nemesis NYx, Knave Loki etc...so it is very possible to just use the primed or non-primed models the same way...it's lazy not to, not impossible...

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Azrael    6,127
9 minutes ago, Geraion said:

Yes, you have prime models, and a basic model. How is it difficult to create a toggle between the models, not just toggling the primed parts themselves.

I have no idea. But we have DE staff telling us that it IS a problem. We are being told "I know it sounds simple but it's actually much more complex than that, please understand that we are looking into it but if it were easy we would have done it already." I think we can trust what we're being told.

  • Upvote 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
NightmareT12    6,220
2 minutes ago, Geraion said:

So tell it to use the entire prime model if you like the prime bits with your skin, or tell it to use the vanilla non-prime model if you don't like the prime...with a toggle. The stats will still be the same...so it's just a model swap, which already exists with Proto Excal skin and Nemesis NYx, Knave Loki etc...so it is very possible to just use the primed or non-primed models the same way...it's lazy not to, not impossible...

Don't miss my point! :P

The engine is built in a way that an item is loaded with the right mesh and a texture. Then you can override the texture or you can make it load that specific item load with its own skin by having the UI tell the game to load a different path (because I'm pretty sure the Deluxe Skins load the model alongside the skin because they share names. Kind of like "PrimeNyx" and all of its associated files or "ProtoNyx" or any WIP name they give it).

It's a bit weird to explain/understand unless you've started to notice how the file paths work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Xardis    1,816
1 minute ago, Azrael said:

I have no idea. But we have DE staff telling us that it IS a problem. We are being told "I know it sounds simple but it's actually much more complex than that, please understand that we are looking into it but if it were easy we would have done it already." I think we can trust what we're being told.

Exacly, aspecialy since they are the experts at it, coz they coded it.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LazerSkink    11,822

So Rebecca just confirmed on Prime Time that Prime frame bits will be hidden when equipped with a TennoGen skin. Request granted I suppose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Geraion    225
5 minutes ago, LazerSkink said:

So Rebecca just confirmed on Prime Time that Prime frame bits will be hidden when equipped with a TennoGen skin. Request granted I suppose.

So they can hide them, but not toggle them...sounds so sketchy...

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we please get an option if we want the Prime parts removed from the TennoGen Skins we use? I personally love they way the TennoGen and Prime parts mesh together and look. Really hope that we get an option to remove them or not. Hopefully I am not the only one that feels this way.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Brachion    1,569

Already confirmed to be happening.

From [DE]Taylor

Hey Tenno!

In honour of the hard work that our creators have put into their TennoGen creations, we are changing Skins to use the original models for Prime Warframes to prevent any unwanted clipping or concealment of textures. This is an all or nothing process due to technical limitations, so all TennoGen Skins will get this treatment.

Thank you all for your feedback and patience on this matter. :community:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
D4N13L_LV    32

But the synergy between Valkyr Prime and the Graxx skin was the sole reason for me to this skin! 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Xardis    1,816
10 minutes ago, MortalMercenary said:

Can we please get an option if we want the Prime parts removed from the TennoGen Skins we use? I personally love they way the TennoGen and Prime parts mesh together and look. Really hope that we get an option to remove them or not. Hopefully I am not the only one that feels this way.

No, you are not the only one that wants it optional. We can hope for the best now.

9 minutes ago, Brachion said:

Already confirmed to be happening.

Not so fast.

3 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

In terms of technical implementation, it might be. "Just add a toggle" does not do justice to how complex this request is for the Devs to implement in-game, but we absolutely want to make sure that we can find a solution for everyone. I have passed on your guys' feedback to the Devs and the team is discussing yet again how viable a toggle option would be, but I cannot make any promises.

Hopefully we can expect a statment from DE on the Devstream.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
NightmareT12    6,220
15 minutes ago, Geraion said:

So they can hide them, but not toggle them...sounds so sketchy...

What they did is change them so they behave like Deluxe skins. Might just be easier.

What I don't really understand is, if after all these years of Immortal Skins and seeing people have some issues and what not... Why didn't they make the TennoGen items work like Deluxe skins from the very get go.

Welp.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Geraion    225
3 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

What they did is change them so they behave like Deluxe skins. Might just be easier.

What I don't really understand is, if after all these years of Immortal Skins and seeing people have some issues and what not... Why didn't they make the TennoGen items work like Deluxe skins from the very get go.

Welp.

So make them work both as they do now, AND as deluxe skins...model swaps. :I They can do it, just sounds like they don't want to and use the 'technical limitations' as an excuse.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites