(Resolved) Issue with Steam Tennogen skins on Prime frames

[LazuliLapis]

16 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

The default mechanism for applying texture-based skins to prime Warframes is that all the prime-specific sections stay and the main body of the Warframe uses the new skin, you might not like the results but the application of these skins to Nova Prime is completely consistent with other primes, obviously other primes don't have custom sections of chest.

If you really don't like it, use Nova, there is no way to "fix" this without ruining it for other people. Outside of custom UIU changes which aren't even remotely cost-effective.

There is a way and that way is adding an option to toggle off the Prime Bits of the warframes. However, they're planning for when you equip a tennogen skin, it will use the base warframe model rather than the prime fixing missing details on Tennogen skins. 

[Xardis]

7 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

It's not getting "fixed" because it's behaving as intended.

No, its not working as intended. I dont see my Nova Prime with cygni skin looking like the one in market or on steam.

[Sold0ut]

Nevermind the fact that according to Hitsu, this is unintended behaviour.

[SilentMobius]

14 hours ago, Xardis said:

No, its not working as intended. I dont see my Nova Prime with cygni skin looking like the one in market or on steam.

That's because it's a skin for Nova not Nova Prime.

16 hours ago, Nevaris said:

There is a way and that way is adding an option to toggle off the Prime Bits of the warframes. However, they're planning for when you equip a tennogen skin, it will use the base warframe model rather than the prime fixing missing details on Tennogen skins. 

A toggle takes UI and infrastructure work. Removing Prime parts from Tennogen skins will ruin these skins for people who are happy for the Prime parts to remain as they do for all other texture skins.

You many not like the results right now but they are working as intended.

Assuming the main issue is the chest piece, DE could remesh Nova Prime and move that chest section back onto the main body, and regenerate the normal/diffuse/specular and tint maps I don't believe there is much going on with that chest piece that required a unique mesh section. But I doubt DE would make a sweeping change because of one Prime 

Edited June 4, 2016 by SilentMobius

[Xardis]

56 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

That's because it's a skin for Nova not Nova Prime.

A toggle takes UI and infrastructure work. Removing Prime parts from Tennogen skins will ruin these skins for people who are happy for the Prime parts to remain as they do for all other texture skins.

You many not like the results right now but they are working as intended.

Assuming the main issue is the chest piece, DE could remesh Nova Prime and move that chest section back onto the main body, and regenerate the normal/diffuse/specular and tint maps I don't believe there is much going on with that chest piect that required a unique mesh section. But I double DE would make a sweeping change because of one Prime 

I see that we wont come to any agrement on this issue - you dont want DE to either give UI option to turn prime parts off or jus do it outright for Tennogen skins. They can do this, the script to turn it off is in the game. Tennogen gives DE a big cut, more and more primes come with new details and skins for those primes will sell much less without this option.

[SilentMobius]

3 hours ago, Xardis said:

I see that we wont come to any agrement on this issue - you dont want DE to either give UI option to turn prime parts off or jus do it outright for Tennogen skins. They can do this, the script to turn it off is in the game. Tennogen gives DE a big cut, more and more primes come with new details and skins for those primes will sell much less without this option.

You are mistaken, doubly.

Firstly I'd be happy for DE to make a "switch" for people to "turn off" Prime parts (Actually it would simply switch out for the non-prime mesh)  but DE are unlikely to do what. They don't like cluttering up the UI and they don't like spending UI dev time when they don't need to. Secondly there is no instance in the game where this already exists. everywhere else there is one hard-set option, one entry in the database, like-it-or-lump-it.

The rules are thus.

1. If an item has an optional different mesh with a different UV map then selecting texture-only skins switches to the "normal" mesh

2. Prime Warframes (unlike Prime weapons) use the same underlying mesh and UV map as normal Warframes but with additions that have their own textures and UV map, texture-only skins swap out the Warframe textures and don't modify the prime bits.

These rules apply to everything, weapons, Warframes etc and Nova isn't going to get it's own set of rules.

I get that you don't understand why this is unlikely to happen, perhaps you don't have a software background so think on this.

Firstly you need UI set up this switch. Then you need to make sure it's stored. because it's completely different to any other cosmetic item which are either there or aren't, this is a matrix operation that works differently depending on the source warframe and the currently equipped skin, but only in specific combinations. Then you need to make sure it's passed along to all the clients and host in the current lobby, adding a new parameter to every negotiation that adds or subtracts a player (remember how DE sometimes mess up and new things/systems don't proliferate to clients or only work for the host, that's when this part isn't set up right)

Or maybe every tennogen Warframe skin adds two skins, one using the prime mesh and One using the non-prime mesh. But the UI is tweaked to not show the prime skin if you have the non-prime Warframe selected and every single tennogen skin needs to have this "hidden" other skin retrofitted with a fix-up script, and DE need to double-up the DB work for ever Tennogen skin from this point onwards.

All because some people don't like the way one Prime Warframe look with some skins.

Doesn't seem cost effective does it?

Edited June 5, 2016 by SilentMobius

[Flatflyer]

The main reason why this is an issue is because every other prime only has minor differences to their normal variant when applying skins, most if not all of them only keep the small gold pieces such the the wind up piece on rhino prime's back or the golden shoulder pieces, however on Nova prime in particular, a large chunk of the old models chest is kept too, which is much more than what any other prime keeps with other skins on.

 

also its obviously unintended considering DE made a note in one of their recent patch notes claiming they fixed issues with Nova prime and tennogen skins while linking to this thread specifically

its just for whatever reason that patch never went through as nothing had changed, so hopefully DE sees that its still not fixed and pushes out another patch for it.

[Neptlude]

Yeah that chest plate doesnt even pop up in normal Nova prime, So why does it transfer to other skins? Its usually just the metal parts `-`

[Xardis]

4 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

These rules apply to everything, weapons, Warframes etc and Nova isn't going to get it's own set of rules.

I get that you don't understand why this is unlikely to happen, perhaps you don't have a software background so think on this.

I dont want it for Nova, I want it for every frame and weapon, Vectis Prime has this problem too. But most primes for some reason have prime bits turned off already - Lex, Vasto, Nikana ect.

No, I dont have software background, but it cant be that hard since DE repeatedly done it before - all armor, movember, sigils. Thats the mechanism for UI, they also turned off prime bits from all delux skins. Its not new mechanic, all part are already in the game.

[Neptlude]

Well the deluxe skins use a different model than the regular warframes `-`

Nova is the only one with the issue of her prime texture(not the prime bits) getting overlayed on skins `-`

[SilentMobius]

8 hours ago, Xardis said:

I dont want it for Nova, I want it for every frame and weapon, Vectis Prime has this problem too. But most primes for some reason have prime bits turned off already - Lex, Vasto, Nikana ect.

No, I dont have software background, but it cant be that hard since DE repeatedly done it before - all armor, movember, sigils. Thats the mechanism for UI, they also turned off prime bits from all delux skins. Its not new mechanic, all part are already in the game.

You are mistaken, again. I must not be explaining this well.

A "skin" can do the following things:

1. Change the mesh
2. Change the normal, specular, emmisive and diffuse maps
3. Change the tint maps

Skins on prime weapons do all three, the single entry in the database swaps out all three things, the mesh and normal map comes from the non-prime version and the rest come from the skin, but it is one entry.

Immortal skins just do #3, Tennogen skins do #2 and #3

There is no mechanism for "maybe the non prime nova mesh or maybe the Prime Nova mesh" that switch doesn't exist. The armour and sigils are just more mesh+texture additions, they are binary, the sigils either there or they aren't.

What you want is either two separate skins for every tennogen skin or a completely new operator, essentially a second skin modifier with all the associated plumbing. This is a lot of infrastructure work for something that really doesn't achieve much.

IMHO they will edit Nova Prime's chest (if they can) and bake the prime content onto the normal nova mesh, but even that is a fair amount of work but at least it doesn't have ongoing maintenance and the need for across-the-board retroactive work. I strongly suggest adjusting your expectations because what you are asking for is not a cost effective use of time.

[SilentMobius]

7 hours ago, Neptlude said:

Well the deluxe skins use a different model than the regular warframes `-`

Nova is the only one with the issue of her prime texture(not the prime bits) getting overlayed on skins `-`

Yes and DE could force all skins to switch the prime mesh for the non-prime mesh, annoying all of the players that bought skins wanting that to be the case. Hence it's not likely to happen.

[Xardis]

3 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

You are mistaken, again. I must not be explaining this well.

A "skin" can do the following things:

1. Change the mesh
2. Change the normal, specular, emmisive and diffuse maps
3. Change the tint maps

Skins on prime weapons do all three, the single entry in the database swaps out all three things, the mesh and normal map comes from the non-prime version and the rest come from the skin, but it is one entry.

Immortal skins just do #3, Tennogen skins do #2 and #3

There is no mechanism for "maybe the non prime nova mesh or maybe the Prime Nova mesh" that switch doesn't exist. The armour and sigils are just more mesh+texture additions, they are binary, the sigils either there or they aren't.

What you want is either two separate skins for every tennogen skin or a completely new operator, essentially a second skin modifier with all the associated plumbing. This is a lot of infrastructure work for something that really doesn't achieve much.

IMHO they will edit Nova Prime's chest (if they can) and bake the prime content onto the normal nova mesh, but even that is a fair amount of work but at least it doesn't have ongoing maintenance and the need for across-the-board retroactive work. I strongly suggest adjusting your expectations because what you are asking for is not a cost effective use of time.

Then make all skins go thought that process. It was a mistake that DE didnt implement the mechanism from weapons into frames. Yes, it wouldnt be cost effective. But a lot of people wont buy Nova skins, that woudnt be cost effectve for DE too. And if Nova skins wont be as profitable as the rest, there wont be any more new skins for Nova.

As I recall, on one of the Devstreams, when creating Knave deluxe skin, DE had used prime mesh instead of normal like it uses now. Exacly same issue.

4 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

Yes and DE could force all skins to switch the prime mesh for the non-prime mesh, annoying all of the players that bought skins wanting that to be the case. Hence it's not likely to happen.

It would be preferable. Author of one skin already declared that he wanted his skin to take non prime mesh.

[SilentMobius]

1 hour ago, Xardis said:

Then make all skins go thought that process. It was a mistake that DE didnt implement the mechanism from weapons into frames. Yes, it wouldnt be cost effective. But a lot of people wont buy Nova skins, that woudnt be cost effectve for DE too. And if Nova skins wont be as profitable as the rest, there wont be any more new skins for Nova.

No you're misunderstanding again. "using the prime mesh" isn't DE failing, it's a feature, seriously, they had to go out of their way to make sure that existing skin UV mapping worked on prime Warframes with all the prime stuff intact. It was deliberate

Switching to the "Prime weapon" mechanism is a retrograde step and will simply piss off all the people who like the prime bits with their skins, and there are plenty of them, people who have bought immortal skins from DE an who use them on Prime warframes and don't want the prime "bling" switched off.

1 hour ago, Xardis said:

As I recall, on one of the Devstreams, when creating Knave deluxe skin, DE had used prime mesh instead of normal like it uses now. Exacly same issue.

It would be preferable. Author of one skin already declared that he wanted his skin to take non prime mesh.

Yes, and when they fixed it, there was only one option, the mesh (on the skin) is different so the prime things go away, one option. You don't get to chose, if you want to use that skin (Which is a #1+#2+#3 skin like prime weapons) then you don't get the prime addons. The tennogen skins are #2+#3 skins and those always leave the prime parts behind, by design, and the fact you don't like one skin with one prime warframe doesn't trump the people who have bought skins that do-and-should apply to a prime Warframe while retaining the prime parts.

You are asking for either 

• Change everyone else's skins underneath them
• spend significant UI and infrastructure time to accommodate one skin and one Warframe

It's kind of like a kid like asking for a pony, sure they like the idea, sure I believe they really want it, but the reality is it's very expensive and a significant burden to others.

Edited June 5, 2016 by SilentMobius

[Xardis]

2 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

No you're misunderstanding again. "using the prime mesh" isn't DE failing, it's a feature, seriously, they had to go out of their way to make sure that existing skin UV mapping worked on prime Warframes with all the prime stuff intact. It was deliberate

Switching to the "Prime weapon" mechanism is a retrograde step and will simply piss off all the people who like the prime bits with their skins, and there are plenty of them, people who have bought immortal skins from DE an who use them on Prime warframes and don't want the prime "bling" switched off.

Yes, and when they fixed it, there was only one option, the mesh (on the skin) is different so the prime things go away, one option. You don't get to chose, if you want to use that skin (Which is a #1+#2+#3 skin like prime weapons) then you don't get the prime addons. The tennogen skins are #2+#3 skins and those always leave the prime parts behind, by design, and the fact you don't like one skin with one prime warframe doesn't trump the people who have bought skins that do-and-should apply to a prime Warframe while retaining the prime parts.

You are asking for either

• Change everyone else's skins underneath them
• spend significant UI and infrastructure time to accommodate one skin and one Warframe

It's kind of like a kid like asking for a pony, sure they like the idea, sure I believe they really want it, but the reality is it's very expensive and a significant burden to others.

Exept DE didnt create those skins, individual players did. DE only taken those which people most liked and implemented them into the game, and author says that the effect in game on prime was not his intention. It should be ultimately his decision, and DE done a disservice to his skin. Also, its not just me, its a good portion of other people. Also not one skin, all nova tennogen skins. And all future nova tennogens skins too.

Again, this is not me and one skin, its a group of players willing to give money to Steam, DE and authors and a bunch of skins, possibly even more.

Cost efficiency aside. DE has gone multiple times out of their way for changes that werent cost effective at all - all reworks.

[SilentMobius]

On 6/5/2016 at 8:47 PM, Xardis said:

Exept DE didnt create those skins, individual players did. DE only taken those which people most liked and implemented them into the game, and author says that the effect in game on prime was not his intention. It should be ultimately his decision, and DE done a disservice to his skin. Also, its not just me, its a good portion of other people. Also not one skin, all nova tennogen skins. And all future nova tennogens skins too.

Again, this is not me and one skin, its a group of players willing to give money to Steam, DE and authors and a bunch of skins, possibly even more.

Cost efficiency aside. DE has gone multiple times out of their way for changes that werent cost effective at all - all reworks.

Doesn't matter who creates them, the work I'm referring to is in the game database side, that DE have to do regardless of the origin of the textures.

Here's the thing, lets say that DE make the effort and allow Tennogen authors to decide what happens with prime Warframes altering the Tennogen tool and the submission process. So now we have a sea of different skins, where maybe you get to keep the Prime parts, maybe you don't, there is no reliable standard, nothing DE can point to an say "It always works like this" and trust me Steve hates case-by-case systems that require manual work and don't solve a problem systemically, he's said as much many times in the devstreams.

On top of that, the people who want to keep the prime parts because they earned their Nova prime and would prefer that skins apply just like any other texture skin, well apparently they're SOL. 

So in that situation DE have spent time an money to implement a solution that takes content away from the people who have already spent money to create a new, unpredictable system to pander to a subset of people who want break the established rules of how skins work because of their personal aesthetic taste ignoring anyone else.

As I've said before, it's not a good solution and I strongly doubt DE would do it.

A switch would satisfy everyone but that is even more work.

Editing the Nova Prime mesh to re-bake the extra chest piece onto the default mesh and maps is a one-off piece of work with not infrastructure modifications, IMHO it's the most likely. If indeed anything further is done.

Edited June 14, 2016 by SilentMobius

[Neptlude]

Please DE just remove the chest plate texture, its not even a prime bling!! =3= Ye can keep the prime bling(it actually looks good on some of the skin specially Visage)

[GreenVajene]

On 6/3/2016 at 8:24 PM, Yato69 said:

Though you still have to admit that the said skins just don't match the prime bits. I don't hope for a fix of the textures, but i do hope for a way to switch on or off the bits of said primes.

The Tennogen skins look great on their own. Nova P looks pretty great on her own (best helmet of all Nova models IMO).

But Nova P bits with Tennogen skins don't match at all. I don't think it can even be disputed.

It's not impossible for them to have the new skin revert the model in some way. I mean, Trinity does it.

Proof _{(ignore ugly color scheme)}

Why not Nova, too? Shouldn't we get what we're paying for?

[Airwolfen]

5 hours ago, GreenVajene said:

The Tennogen skins look great on their own. Nova P looks pretty great on her own (best helmet of all Nova models IMO).

But Nova P bits with Tennogen skins don't match at all. I don't think it can even be disputed.

It's not impossible for them to have the new skin revert the model in some way. I mean, Trinity does it.

Proof _{(ignore ugly color scheme)}

-snip-

Why not Nova, too? Shouldn't we get what we're paying for?

IMO the only part that would need removal is the chest part but I like the rest and its the combination that I bought it for. Otherwise I would simply use regular nova

"But Nova P bits with Tennogen skins don't match at all. I don't think it can even be disputed."
For me it can :| I mean me mostly liking it would already dispute that no?

To me it would be a big loss if the skin pulls a trinity immortal. the moving pack on nova p her back combined with the visage skin is just to great to give up for me :,(

[GreenVajene]

8 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

IMO the only part that would need removal is the chest part but I like the rest and its the combination that I bought it for. Otherwise I would simply use regular nova

"But Nova P bits with Tennogen skins don't match at all. I don't think it can even be disputed."
For me it can :| I mean me mostly liking it would already dispute that no?

To me it would be a big loss if the skin pulls a trinity immortal. the moving pack on nova p her back combined with the visage skin is just to great to give up for me :,(

When I say that they don't match, I don't mean that they can't be made to look good together, but the aesthetics of each element are diametrically opposed. The African neck rings, especially, share no qualities with the Grineer aesthetic, sleek Mass Effect look, or WWII-uniform-style of the Tennogen skins.

However, forcing us to use a frame with worse stats just to please aesthetic sensibilities isn't really worth $6.

But people like you who have already bought and liked the skins as they are now shouldn't be screwed either. It should be toggle-able, I just meant to indicate that Immortal Trinity shows that adapting an old mesh to a prime frame is perfectly reasonable and has already been done (though Trinity still keeps her boobphysics lobster butt).

[LazuliLapis]

Just now, GreenVajene said:

When I say that they don't match, I don't mean that they can't be made to look good together, but the aesthetics of each element are diametrically opposed. The African neck rings, especially, share no qualities with the Grineer aesthetic, sleek Mass Effect look, or WWII-uniform-style of the Tennogen skins.

However, forcing us to use a frame with worse stats just to please aesthetic sensibilities isn't really worth $6.

But people like you who have already bought and liked the skins as they are now shouldn't be screwed either. It should be toggle-able, I just meant to indicate that Immortal Trinity shows that adapting an old mesh to a prime frame is perfectly reasonable and has already been done (though Trinity still keeps her boobphysics lobster butt).

I love this! Honestly, you spoke the words right out of my heart. I was very tempted to forma regular nova today just to use Visage but I stopped myself because of the superiority of Nova Prime's stats compared to regular Nova.

[Larsurus]

I personally don't like the Prime bling on Visage, but I love it on the Lamia skin. If I could use Visage without the bling on Nova Prime I would, but at the same time I want the bling to remain on Lamia (minus the chest plate).

[FollowTheFaceless]

As I said already: we simply need a switch for swapping models from prime to normal look. I don't think it's THAT MUCH difficult.

[Sold0ut]

On 5.6.2016 at 10:09 PM, SilentMobius said:

to pander to a subset of people who want break the established rules of how skins work because of their personal aesthetic taste ignoring anyone else

Hahaha, including the people that made them? Yes, Hitsu_San is not happy with this missing, and he hoped they would have it fixed for Prime Frames on release of the Tennogen batch.

http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/discussion/665040825/364040166677317790/?ctp=2#c364040797995387051

Read this before you keep implying that the vast majority of people that don't like this chestplate are 'a subset of people who want to break the established rules'. The very author of them already has been in contact with DE, but they didn't deliver this on the patch, and the guy that made not only Visage, but also Atlata and Hagoromo wants the Prime Issue to be resolved. The same way it is for Deluxe skins.

 

[SilentMobius]

14 hours ago, Sold0ut said:

Hahaha, including the people that made them? Yes, Hitsu_San is not happy with this missing, and he hoped they would have it fixed for Prime Frames on release of the Tennogen batch.

http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/discussion/665040825/364040166677317790/?ctp=2#c364040797995387051

Read this before you keep implying that the vast majority of people that don't like this chestplate are 'a subset of people who want to break the established rules'. The very author of them already has been in contact with DE, but they didn't deliver this on the patch, and the guy that made not only Visage, but also Atlata and Hagoromo wants the Prime Issue to be resolved. The same way it is for Deluxe skins.

 

Yeah, including the people who made them, they are just players who happen to be good with Z-Brush, they don't get special consideration. The rules were known, I think it's the height of hubris to want to either change base rules that have a wide impact on other Warframes or expect other people (AKA DE) to spend time fixing problems you should have thought of. The immortal skin for Nova existed from the second nova Prime was available, it has been obvious that all of the prime cosmetics remain including the extra chest piece since that point.

As I have said, if DE have the inclination to pay for the time to allow either a switch or a doubling of all tennogen skins to accommodate the subset of people who don't like it then great, everyone wins. but if they just forcibly remove prime parts for this and all other Tennogen skins (By model swapping back to Nova, breaking the existing rules) there will be a (probably larger) outcry, and I will be part of that.

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by [DE]Taylor
removed inflammatory comment.