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(Resolved) Issue with Steam Tennogen skins on Prime frames


Xardis
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23 minutes ago, Geraion said:

So make them work both as they do now, AND as deluxe skins...model swaps. :I They can do it, just sounds like they don't want to and use the 'technical limitations' as an excuse.

Are you a coder hired by Digital Extremes with intimate knowledge on how DE has structured their mesh system? Because without that knowledge, you are honestly just blowing hot air. If they had a system that was easily usable for doing this already, they said they would have already used it.

Edited by NeithanDiniem
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1 minute ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Are you a coder hired by Digital Extremes with intimate knowledge on how DE has structured their mesh system? Because without that knowledge, you are honestly just blowing hot air. If they had a system that was easily usable for doing this already, they said they would have already used it.

No, but since they're not telling us specifically what the problem is, I can speculate all I want, and since they are already showing that both methods of skin usage are in the game, it is a reasonable suspicion to have.

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Just now, Geraion said:

No, but since they're not telling us specifically what the problem is, I can speculate all I want, and since they are already showing that both methods of skin usage are in the game, it is a reasonable suspicion to have.

Yes because the thing they should be doing right now in detail is spelling out why it wont work in a concise understandable form to people that cant tell the difference from a mesh to a texture just to end your speculations instead of actively working on finding a solution to the problem or working on other issues... If you cant take their word that "Its difficult" then what would make you believe them after a technical explanation that you would hardly understand?

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3 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Yes because the thing they should be doing right now in detail is spelling out why it wont work in a concise understandable form to people that cant tell the difference from a mesh to a texture just to end your speculations instead of actively working on finding a solution to the problem or working on other issues... If you cant take their word that "Its difficult" then what would make you believe them after a technical explanation that you would hardly understand?

I understand the mesh thing, hence I said there should be a toggle between a 'deluxe skin' model swap if you don't like the currently implemented skinning on the prime models.

I.e. it'd be;
Option A; Use the prime models as they are now with the tennogen skin equpped.
Option B; Swap whatever prime model you use with the vanilla model the skin was painted on, like how the deluxe skins work.

So it's a toggle between using model A and model B. So they don't need to remove the way the tennogen skin interacts with a primed warframe mesh, they simply need to add a path to swap the primed mesh with the vanilla mesh the tennogen skin is painted on.

Both methods are in the game already. How is it in any way unreasonable to have both options available other than if a creator would like it to be available or not, and not blame it on 'technicalities'.

Arguably, they'd maybe have to create a seperate 'tennogen' model...which already exists as the creators already created them for tennogen...

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9 minutes ago, Geraion said:

I understand the mesh thing, hence I said there should be a toggle between a 'deluxe skin' model swap if you don't like the currently implemented skinning on the prime models.

I.e. it'd be;
Option A; Use the prime models as they are now with the tennogen skin equpped.
Option B; Swap whatever prime model you use with the vanilla model the skin was painted on, like how the deluxe skins work.

So it's a toggle between using model A and model B. So they don't need to remove the way the tennogen skin interacts with a primed warframe mesh, they simply need to add a path to swap the primed mesh with the vanilla mesh the tennogen skin is painted on.

Both methods are in the game already. How is it in any way unreasonable to have both options available other than if a creator would like it to be available or not, and not blame it on 'technicalities'.

Arguably, they'd maybe have to create a seperate 'tennogen' model...which already exists as the creators already created them for tennogen...

The toggle is the very thing DE has stated is the difficult system to implement. They have said "Yes it seems like it would be simple but it is more complicated than that." A toggle is not in the game already, what is in is forced model calls for specific skins and since we don't know how the file system is set up or how a toggle would interrupt the current call system no one here can accurately know how easy/difficult it would be to add. Any concept can seem perfectly simple but integrating it with an almost 4 year old system can in fact not be easy without rebuilding the system. Its like requesting someone to replace the foundation of a house without knowing if it can be done without having to tear the whole building down and rebuilding it.

Edited by NeithanDiniem
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Fun programming story:

I used to play Planetside 2 for a bit right around its launch with some friends. We had a clan, and things were good.

And then, the leader of our clan decided he didn't want to run things anymore and dropped out of the leader position for someone else to take. However, there was a bug, and the person set to take over didn't get promoted to top spot clan became completely leaderless instead. There were still people with the authority to invite people, but no grand pumba to promote and set roles within the clan. So, obviously, we poked the devs to set the guy who was suppose to be leader the leader.

It took them nearly two months to do that. Why? because the never thought what happened to our clan could ever happened, and they had to program, more or less from scratch, the GM tools that would let them change a clan's leadership like that.

The moral: do not assume simple problems have simple programming solutions, because you have NO IDEA how the coding is actually set up.

Or to put it another way...

Still, I hope for the day they can let me have both Saryn Graxx w/o Prime parts and Nyx Athena w/ Prime parts.

Edited by Foefaller
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3 hours ago, LazerSkink said:

So Rebecca just confirmed on Prime Time that Prime frame bits will be hidden when equipped with a TennoGen skin. Request granted I suppose.

I sure hope it's an optional thing. Personally, I like to see the Prime differences in my Tennogen skins...even when it means the Nova Prime chest area is sort of messed up.

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Another possible solution besides a toggle could be to implement a script that gave evryone who purchased/purchases a tennogen skin a second copy of that skin for prime warframes that uses the prime model. It is a bit more clunky than a toggle, but seems a bit easier on the coding side as a possible stop gap measure.

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On 04/01/2017 at 9:53 PM, [DE]Taylor said:

Hey Tenno!

In honour of the hard work that our creators have put into their TennoGen creations, we are changing Skins to use the original models for Prime Warframes to prevent any unwanted clipping or concealment of textures. This is an all or nothing process due to technical limitations, so all TennoGen Skins will get this treatment.

Thank you all for your feedback and patience on this matter. :community:

Out of interest, what are the technical contraints that prevent a toggle? Might give a clearer understanding of what challenges you peeps face :)

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6 hours ago, Vrcross said:

Another possible solution besides a toggle could be to implement a script that gave evryone who purchased/purchases a tennogen skin a second copy of that skin for prime warframes that uses the prime model.

That'd mean they'd have to create a second version for each Tennogen skin, though. Which is probably just as much work.

Just now, Juvieus_Kaine said:

Out of interest, what are the technical contraints that prevent a toggle?

See the previous page. ;)

Edited by czcbibliothekar
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14 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

If it was that simple, I assure you the team would have already done it.

Ah, but surely it is that easy but the Devs are evil goblins that revel in cruelty.

I joke XD

Also, i actually like the way its different on primes.

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1 minute ago, czcbibliothekar said:

See the previous page. ;)

I just went through the previous 4/5 pages but Taylor or anyone else hasn't actually said why they can't do it - only that it's not straitforward to implement like most of us think it is.

 

I was just curious what the Devs had to say is all

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I'm telling you right now, if they do this change and don't give a toggle i except a full refund on the Warframe skins i purchased.

Because I bought the nova one and volt because they look good on prime. If they take that away that's completely unfair. That's like giving you something then completely changing it on you months later.

Edited by Dioxety
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11 hours ago, Geraion said:

I understand the mesh thing, hence I said there should be a toggle between a 'deluxe skin' model swap if you don't like the currently implemented skinning on the prime models.

I lothe this change but really as a developer myself I can absolutely see why this would be a nightmare. It's pretty obvious how their item switching works and adding a new axis of information to a slot would need to push through all the way to the net code, including the super-shakey host-client code. Alternatively they could build into the market the ability to deliver multiple items without classification as a bundle even when gifting and the retroactively script giving everyone with each skin a second non-prime-mesh version, then alter all the CS tools so that if the skin is removes it looks up if there are anyone other "attached" skins and removes them, then alter all their deployment spreadsheets that get compiled into the item DB and the build script so that they can support the extra "attached skins" then teach the non-developer content people how it works.
It would be really laborious to do and test. And when communicating with end users I too would call it "technical limitations"

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So I've heard that DE want to actually remove the Prime Parts on Prime warframes when a TennoGen skin is applied. This might be a great idea for Valkyr, no questions. But what if some warframes look better with Prime Parts + TenoGen skins?

DE wanted to remove the Prime Parts, that means for me as much as there won't be any ''Toggle'' options. But I think that we need a ''Toggle'' option since some warframes are just way cooler with the Prime Parts (Volt, for example, looks pretty great with the Graxx skin and the Prime Parts [my opinion]).

 

What I, and many more, want: a simple ''Toggle'' option for the Prime Parts. Nothing else. DE, this can't be too hard.

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7 minutes ago, MrM1 said:

So I've heard that DE want to actually remove the Prime Parts on Prime warframes when a TennoGen skin is applied. This might be a great idea for Valkyr, no questions. But what if some warframes look better with Prime Parts + TenoGen skins?

DE wanted to remove the Prime Parts, that means for me as much as there won't be any ''Toggle'' options. But I think that we need a ''Toggle'' option since some warframes are just way cooler with the Prime Parts (Volt, for example, looks pretty great with the Graxx skin and the Prime Parts [my opinion]).

 

What I, and many more, want: a simple ''Toggle'' option for the Prime Parts. Nothing else. DE, this can't be too hard.

Eh... Did you watch Steve's stream per chance on Sunday?

Edited by NightmareT12
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3 minutes ago, MrM1 said:

ehh.. not really. But I guess I already know what it was about, according to your answer. Thx anyway.

Nah, it was him playing and talking a bit about how the Engine works (he showed up the tools and all in a dev envoriment) and what they do.

One of the points was: "we've got programmers compiling this code several times a day to make sure it works". Taking into account the EE wasn't thought for the purpose of mesh swapping, it takes time to code. But then they have to make sure that code doesn't break...

It can be done, but it's most likely honestly a handful.

Edited by NightmareT12
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7 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

Nah, it was him playing and talking a bit about how the Engine works (he showed up the tools and all in a dev envoriment) and what they do.

One of the points was: "we've got programmers compiling this code several times a day to make sure it works". Taking into account the EE wasn't thought for the purpose of mesh swapping, it takes time to code. But then they have to make sure that code doesn't break...

It can be done, but it's most likely honestly a handful.

The money Tennogen generates for DE is more then enough to hire 2 developers for a year+ to do it :P Unless it would just absolutley wreck their system that is.

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12 hours ago, Vrcross said:

Another possible solution besides a toggle could be to implement a script that gave evryone who purchased/purchases a tennogen skin a second copy of that skin for prime warframes that uses the prime model. It is a bit more clunky than a toggle, but seems a bit easier on the coding side as a possible stop gap measure.

So much UI clutter but I like this solution as a temporary fix. Please don't take my Mag Prime holsters DE.

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5 hours ago, czcbibliothekar said:

That'd mean they'd have to create a second version for each Tennogen skin, though. Which is probably just as much work.

 

Not really any more work than what the currently plan will need.  If the current plan is to change all Prime frames to revert to standard model when using Tennogen skins then they are already doing the work required to change it.  I can't imagine it would be that hard to do that and make it a separate item instead of overwriting the existing one that works as it currently does.  So instead of changing 'Valkyr Graxx' to be standard Valkyr model, leave it as is using the model of Valkyr or Valkyr Prime depending on which you are using but also add 'Valkyr Graxx (non-prime)' to the skins available to Valkyr Prime.  'Valkyr Graxx (non-Prime)' would then be the version of 'Valkyr Graxx' that they are proposing, standard Valkyr model despite being Prime.  Deluxe skins show that it is possible for some skins to use the standard model and others to override it so it shouldn't be a problem to have two skins that are almost identical but one replaces the model and the other doesn't. 

This would be a simpler solution than the toggle which would need a new UI button (although Equinox and Nidus get a button to switch form so that shouldn't be hard either).  Only problem I see would be clutter later on but down the line UI can be tweaked to deal with that anyway by adding filters in addition to the search options we already have (and it's not like Arcane Helmets and reskinned Syandanas aren't causing this issue already). 

3 minutes ago, xRufus7x said:

So much UI clutter but I like this solution as a temporary fix. Please don't take my Mag Prime holsters DE.

This is my fear!  I've grown quite attached to Mag's floating hip widgets.  I lived through them being forced gold while I had alternate skins to reduce the rest of the bling then they got PBR'd and I could make them a nice silvery colour fitting the rest of my colours.  I don't want to lose them now and I don't want to have the default Prime pattern be the only skin I can use that has them!

Edited by Katinka
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Like the title suggests. Sometimes I want a new look for my Nova, and I've been eyeing at the Visage Skin for a while, but what bothers me about getting it on my Nova Prime I spent so much hard work getting, is that some prime parts are still there and kind of make the skin look ugly. For example, her left breast, and the gold bits that seperate it, her back flaps that don't look good with some mounted weapons and syandanas (in my opinion), her knee gaurds, and her neck peice.

 

For Reference (Back flaps not shown; everyone knows what that is :v):

https://gyazo.com/40a6fc8b92ceff4fdcc3176d0aaa9260

Not to say the Prime Variant is ugly. I loved it since I made Nova Prime, but I like a new look once a while. I would not mind paying real money to get the skin.

 

I'm sure this could apply to other skins, like the Volt Graxx skin

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On 05.01.2017 at 1:53 AM, [DE]Taylor said:

Hey Tenno!

In honour of the hard work that our creators have put into their TennoGen creations, we are changing Skins to use the original models for Prime Warframes to prevent any unwanted clipping or concealment of textures. This is an all or nothing process due to technical limitations, so all TennoGen Skins will get this treatment.

Thank you all for your feedback and patience on this matter. :community:

Why can't we have an option to keep/remove prime bits? Many players including me bought some tennogen skins because they were a nice addition to primey look. Why ruin it in favor of other skins?

Edit: just seen your second post about discussing it, thanks!

Edited by Ksaero
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