(Resolved) Issue with Steam Tennogen skins on Prime frames

[Sold0ut]

"The height of hubris". Yes, it is totally "the height of hubris" that the people creating the skins want their skins to work properly. The HEIGHT of hubris. In a game that features Deluxe skins that actively disable Prime parts, even if they use incredibly similar body shapes like the Loki one. I'm honestly looking forward to your outcry then, because you could have informed yourself that DE indeed had planned to change all the Tennogen skins to work without the Prime parts, and they had confirmed it to the authors themselves before 18.13, and it was publically posted at least by Hitsu. Stop actively insulting everyone with a different opinion than you, and stop insulting the authors of the Tennogen skins you use.

STAYING ON THE TOPIC: The chestplate needs to go. It currently has incredibly problematic interactions with the skin, and I really hope we will get to see things like the Visage skin without the Prime parts, much like Hitsu_San himself intended. We either need the Prime parts removed, need an on-off switch (which would make everyone happy, and would be ideal) or at the very least, this chestplate has got to go the same way it should have gone for Cygni, as it does NOT work with the Tennogen skins at ALL and is clearly meant to be part of the Nova Prime base model.

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2016 by [DE]Taylor
removed inflammatory comment

[GreenVajene]

I'm sure this is one of those fixes we'll eventually get anyway, we just might get it sooner if we clamor more.

Then the people who hate that fix can get on here and the cycle can continue :)

[Xardis]

55 minutes ago, GreenVajene said:

I'm sure this is one of those fixes we'll eventually get anyway, we just might get it sooner if we clamor more.

Then the people who hate that fix can get on here and the cycle can continue :)

The point of this post is to make DE fix this problem in such a way that there wont be any outcry, to produce a win-win situation for owners of those skins. A switch for prime to nonprime model on weapons and frames (and maybe sentinels in the future).

[Ceirne]

The issue with Nova Prime and her skins has returned and it's still a glaring fault in the design. Tennogen skins are completely ruined with it and it's totally a contrast against it. People who have bought it are let down and the creators I imagine aren't too content with it lasting.

[SilentMobius]

On 6/8/2016 at 8:58 AM, Sold0ut said:

"The height of hubris". Yes, it is totally "the height of hubris" that the people creating the skins want their skins to work properly. The HEIGHT of hubris. In a game that features Deluxe skins that actively disable Prime parts, even if they use incredibly similar body shapes like the Loki one. I'm honestly looking forward to your outcry then, because you could have informed yourself that DE indeed had planned to change all the Tennogen skins to work without the Prime parts, and they had confirmed it to the authors themselves before 18.13, and it was publically posted at least by Hitsu. Stop actively insulting everyone with a different opinion than you, and stop insulting the authors of the Tennogen skins you use.

When a player is trying to made far-reaching decisions about everyone else's game experience because of their opinion on what DE should be doing in direct opposition of the plain-as-day existing way of doing things. Then yes, IMHO hubris.

On 6/8/2016 at 8:58 AM, Sold0ut said:

The chestplate needs to go. It currently has incredibly problematic interactions with the skin, and I really hope we will get to see things like the Visage skin without the Prime parts, much like Hitsu_San himself intended. We either need the Prime parts removed, need an on-off switch (which would make everyone happy, and would be ideal) or at the very least, this chestplate has got to go the same way it should have gone for Cygni, as it does NOT work with the Tennogen skins at ALL and is clearly meant to be part of the Nova Prime base model.

I disagree, I do not want the prime parts to be removed I do not believe it "needs to go", I'm happy with the current situation and the Tennogen skins I have purchased, I have done so in full understanding of how all Prime Warframes interact with texture-only skins Nova Prime and the Visage skin included.

The skin functions as expected on the Nova Warframe if you do not want the Prime parts applying to this skin, use Nova. It functions as expected on Nova Prime, (complete with prime parts) as expected from looking all other Prime Warframes and texture-only skins.

You all have an option to use the skin with or without prime parts by using Nova or Nova Prime. You are stating that if no "switch" can be made (Which likely will not happen, but I would welcome it if it did) then all choice should be taken away and this skin should force the Nova mesh regardless.

You are petitioning for removing options from other players because you feel that your stat increases are worth more than other players (already existing) freedom of choice.

[Xardis]

1 hour ago, SilentMobius said:

You are petitioning for removing options from other players because you feel that your stat increases are worth more than other players (already existing) freedom of choice.

Ok, I will restate my petition to DE:

Add a new UI toggle for prime to nonprime model for all prime frames or add an auxiliary slot for those prime parts like Banshee sholderplate. (The 2nd option was implemented  several times in similar degree, Armor slots, Movember staches, Easter Leptus headgear, Halloween Dullahan mask and auxiliary cosmetics for Valkyr and Nekros) I dont want those prime bits automaticly turned off like with Deluxe skins. I do not expect any change to happen overnight, I only expect a public statemeant from DE about their decision on this issue and, if possible, a rough estimete on implementation date of any change.

Now when we have this out of the way, there shouldnt be any more problems with what this topic (well, at least in my case) is advocating for. I will also repost this petition into my first post.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Xardis

[SilentMobius]

2 minutes ago, Xardis said:

Ok, I will restate my petition to DE:

Add a new UI toggle for prime to nonprime model for all prime frames or add an auxiliary slot for those prime parts like Banshee sholderplate. The 2nd option was implemented  several times in similar degree, Armor slots, Movember staches, Easter Leptus headgear, Halloween Dullahan mask and auxiliary cosmetics for Valkyr and Nekros. I now dont want those prime bits automaticly turned off like with Deluxe skins. I do not expect any change to happen overnight, I only expect a public statemeant from DE about their decision on this issue and, if possible, a rough estimete on implementation date of any change.

Now when we have this out of the way, there shouldnt be any more problems with what this topic (well, at least in my case) is advocating for. I will also repost this petition into my first post.

My statement was directed at SoldOut. I have no issue with your suggestion other than I feel it is unlikely to happen based on my understanding of DE, their priorities and my own software engineering experience, I'm happy to be wrong though.

[GreenVajene]

13 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

yes, IMHO hubris.

Well, actually, you said the "height" of hubris.

To put that into perspective, for something to be the "height," or "pinnacle," of hubris suggests that things like, for example, a couple notable invasions of Russia were equal to or lesser examples of hubris than... wanting a model in a game to reflect the model upon which its cash shop skin was originally advertised with.

There's hyperbole, and then there's whatever that is. ^{I mean, come on, these are skins in a game. Sheesh.}

It's safe to say this is an issue which affects all prime frames that also have Tennogen offerings. It's safe to say some people will prefer those cash shop skins with or without prime greebles. Nova is an especially pronounced example as her prime parts are especially distinct. Future prime frames still on or pre-drawing board may suffer the same issues. A toggle-able on/off is a pretty reasonable thing to start working towards if it's not in the works already. Considering people are shelling out ~$6 for individual skins it's not at all an unreasonable option to be adding in, or requesting to get added in.

Edited June 14, 2016 by GreenVajene

[SilentMobius]

6 hours ago, GreenVajene said:

Well, actually, you said the "height" of hubris.

To put that into perspective, for something to be the "height," or "pinnacle," of hubris suggests that things like, for example, a couple notable invasions of Russia were equal to or lesser examples of hubris than... wanting a model in a game to reflect the model upon which its cash shop skin was originally advertised with.

There's hyperbole, and then there's whatever that is. ^{I mean, come on, these are skins in a game. Sheesh.}

It's safe to say this is an issue which affects all prime frames that also have Tennogen offerings. It's safe to say some people will prefer those cash shop skins with or without prime greebles. Nova is an especially pronounced example as her prime parts are especially distinct. Future prime frames still on or pre-drawing board may suffer the same issues. A toggle-able on/off is a pretty reasonable thing to start working towards if it's not in the works already. Considering people are shelling out ~$6 for individual skins it's not at all an unreasonable option to be adding in, or requesting to get added in.

You got me, I used the term "height" as an unneeded superlative, that was hyperbole. I stand by "hubris" though, when people are campaigning to alter existing systems of the game that provide all possible visual options for a more limited state because their desire for more points overrides others existing ability to choose the display state of the skin. Also, I mean there is hubris: "I want my thing my way because I made it" and then there is "I want my thing my way because I made it and I want to change everyone else's experience as a result and get other people to make changes to their systems to accommodate me" that certainly seems to be a "higher" form of hubris, when it actively affect others.

Anyway...

I also think it's not unreasonable at all for players to want a "switch", I absolutly see why people want it. But I'm also a software dev myself and I can see how awfully messy such a thing would be for DE and thus feel it's unlikely to happen. All of the DB mistakes that we see every update tell me that their asset committing process is painfully manual, probably text files that are hand-written and composed into the asset register, I've seen systems like this, and I can see anything that makes that process more annoying (and this "switch" would) would never see the light of day.

Given DE's previous solutions to things like arcane helmets, Trial arcanes an the suchlike I think they put a high value on minimizing systemic impact on the content queue.

But as I said, I'm happy to be wrong.

Edited June 14, 2016 by SilentMobius

[Sold0ut]

No, there is nothing even slightly 'hubris' about it. The people that made it have some rights to get what they created put into the game. There is no 'wanting to change everyone's experience'. The creator of the Visage Skin at the very least was in communication with DE for his skin to work like a normal Nova skin BEFORE the patch, not afterwards, so your argument is moot. And DE agreed to that. It's sure as heck not hubris of them to expect that the promises DE made will be actually followed up on. Which I stated like twice now.

Nevermind the hyperbole you had follow that. Bringing up some extremely negative supposed experiences you had does not mean DE have the same process, so this reduces the claim to some sort of imaginary hogwash.

[SilentMobius]

8 hours ago, Sold0ut said:

No, there is nothing even slightly 'hubris' about it. The people that made it have some rights to get what they created put into the game. There is no 'wanting to change everyone's experience'. The creator of the Visage Skin at the very least was in communication with DE for his skin to work like a normal Nova skin BEFORE the patch, not afterwards, so your argument is moot. And DE agreed to that. It's sure as heck not hubris of them to expect that the promises DE made will be actually followed up on. Which I stated like twice now.

Nevermind the hyperbole you had follow that. Bringing up some extremely negative supposed experiences you had does not mean DE have the same process, so this reduces the claim to some sort of imaginary hogwash.

You are mistaken,

The immortal skins existed well before Tennogen, how texture-only skins work with prime Warframes is-and-was clear. The author of the Visage skin didn't like that and wanted special treatment for their skin, which simply breaks the rule and requires additional work from DE creating confusion in the player base because nobody can rely on how a given skin is going to look with a prime Warframe. In addition you are changing assets that people have already purchased, and those who were paying attention to how Prime Warframes interacted with texture-based skins (like myself) have bought those skins on the understanding that the expected functionality would continue.

So we have three options:

1. Alter the existing ruleset for texture skins and either have inconsistent rules or take away all prime parts from all texture/tennogen skins. taking away any ability to retain prime parts regardless of opinion.
2. Leave it as it is and people who want the Prime parts use the Prime and people who don't use the Non Prime.
3. Create a switch, which requires notable work from DE and (IMHO most likely) additional ongoing development time per skin.

• For #3 all the cost is lumped on DE
• For #2 The only cost is some people choose to not get the additional prime stats
• For #1 Everyone is forced to use the skin your way regardless of why they purchased it.

When someone is requiring work or compliance from others, because of their self-perceived entitlement then yes, it's hubris.

Edited June 15, 2016 by SilentMobius

[Sold0ut]

3 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

You are mistaken

Nope. DE agreed they would change it to Hitsu_San before the patch came in, as simple as that.

[SilentMobius]

8 minutes ago, Sold0ut said:

Nope. DE agreed they would change it to Hitsu_San before the patch came in, as simple as that.

It really isn't, DE decides what constitutes a "fix" and that is far from synonymous with your opinion on what should be done.

The existence of, and implied contract with the immortal skins predates any DE agreement on a "fix" and also doesn't specify what "fix" they intend to make.

So again... you are mistaken.

Edited June 15, 2016 by SilentMobius

[Sold0ut]

 

1 minute ago, SilentMobius said:

It really isn't, DE decides what constitutes a "fix"

Nope. Again. They confirmed to Hitsu_San, before the patch hit, that they eventually will make his skin - and other Tennogen skins - use the base Frame model instead of a Prime version. Probably not on the actual patch the Tennogen batch got introduced during either, but instead somewhere during the U19 patches because they were and are rather busy with that. 

Whether you like this fact or not.

[SilentMobius]

3 minutes ago, Sold0ut said:

 

Nope. Again. They confirmed to Hitsu_San, before the patch hit, that they eventually will make his skin - and other Tennogen skins - use the base Frame model instead of a Prime version. Probably not on the actual patch the Tennogen batch got introduced during either, but instead somewhere during the U19 patches because they were and are rather busy with that. 

Whether you like this fact or not.

You think so? Because on steam there is only "Should be fixed" (Opinion on Hitsu's part) and "fix", the only part Hitsu related about DE was that they were "looking into it"

None of that is confirmation of your position on the matter "Whether you like this fact or not"

[Sold0ut]

2 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

You think so? Because on steam there is only "Should be fixed" (Opinion on Hitsu's part) and "fix", the only part Hitsu related about DE was that they were "looking into it"

None of that is confirmation of your position on the matter "Whether you like this fact or not"

 

http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/discussion/665040825/364040166677317790/?ctp=2#c364040166684538779

http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/discussion/665040825/364040166677317790/?ctp=2#c364040166687655882

 

There you go.

 

Quote

I've asked about that problem and it should be solved by model swapping to original nova when you're using nova prime and the visage skin (it should be like that for other skins too) and they're looking into it. I'm not sure it will be implemented by the release of this skins batch but it shouldn't take too long either ;) So Yes it will work for Nova Prime too.

Quote

Uhm no you got that wrong, it will work on Nova Prime but not like the Immortal skin (if DE makes the change soon enough, but eventually it should happen). No prime bits, just this model as you see it.

 

So there, it's established fact, no matter how much you go against it.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Sold0ut
Added second link.

[Sold0ut]

Ouchy!

 

Don't think I need to draw a rectangle around that one! Cutoff line under the left arm is bruuuutal!

Edited June 19, 2016 by Sold0ut

[Flatflyer]

Another Major update and still no word on a fix for this, hoping DE notices soon.

[ZetraThorn]

8 hours ago, Flatflyer said:

Another Major update and still no word on a fix for this, hoping DE notices soon.

I'm starting to get a strong feeling that we wont get this fixed untill the War within.

[LascarCapable]

I just saw that thread. I also think an option to switch between old/new model when using skins on prime frames would be pretty awesome, or at least they should disable the golden parts. Some skins are pretty badly affected by it. I pretty much approve the idea.

[Brynslustafir]

The texture on the anatomical left side of Nova Primes chest never changes, even though the Tennogen item pictures visible in the market clearly show how they are supposed to look. 

This bug has been around for months, and seeing as how it affects every last one of these expensive skins, it really ought to be fixed.

Picture Evidence:

 

[Hamu_]

Thank God someone else notices this. I've been wanting to get a TG skin for Nova but I can't do that without having to deal with the prime bits sticking around. They could easily just make TG skins swap to the non-prime model since that's what they seem to be made for anyways. There was even the one time when Loki Prime's prime bits were on his deluxe skin. I understand that the deluxe skins are completely different models, but the fact that it stuck there and DE being able to remove it so easily should mean they could do so with Nova Prime. I really hope they've notice this issue before, because it's something I believe needs to be touched. I'm the kind of person that cares a lot about these tiny details, because it's the tiny details that can make a big difference.

Please, DE, fix this ASAP.

[Volatice]

17 minutes ago, Hamu_ said:

Thank God someone else notices this. I've been wanting to get a TG skin for Nova but I can't do that without having to deal with the prime bits sticking around. They could easily just make TG skins swap to the non-prime model since that's what they seem to be made for anyways. There was even the one time when Loki Prime's prime bits were on his deluxe skin. I understand that the deluxe skins are completely different models, but the fact that it stuck there and DE being able to remove it so easily should mean they could do so with Nova Prime. I really hope they've notice this issue before, because it's something I believe needs to be touched. I'm the kind of person that cares a lot about these tiny details, because it's the tiny details that can make a big difference.

Please, DE, fix this ASAP.

I don't think they should completely remove it, but rather make it an option to toggle on and off. There are some frames where the prime stuff works well with the skin.

[Hamu_]

1 minute ago, Volatice said:

I don't think they should completely remove it, but rather make it an option to toggle on and off. There are some frames where the prime stuff works well with the skin.

That's an even better idea.

[Brynslustafir]

I just want this stuff fixed. I don't even care how it's done. I'm just tired of every last one of these expensive skins being bugged out. After paying a good amount of money for something, it generally doesn't feel really good to find out that it's defective or broken. 

But what bothers me most is that this bug has been around since the first piece of Tennogen merch became available for nova. I sincerely hope this fix gets bundled in with with the War Within. 

Edited August 5, 2016 by Plasmaface