Lost Clans; Disapearance Of The Small Clan

[Loswaith]

At this point our smalller clan is starting to consider disbanding or retiring, as the costs are simply to much for us to actually see a future with our dojo.  With more of our members moving into completion, dojo weaponry is becoming more and more of a want.

 

It is also a consideration for adding new members, as its a consideration whether the dojo weapons will be seen by new prospective members in 4-6 weeks of the joining or 6+ months, making it actually very hard to grow what is a smaller guild to become a viable one.

 

Also with costs being uncertain for a shadow clan, we are just not certain whether that costing is even going to eventually work for clans with less than initially 15 members or so, presuming any smaller shadow clans will remain at the point of scalled clan release.

 

Which got me curious as to how many other smaller clans have found this to be an issue, thusly are now 'lost' or retired and any advice that they can be given to fellow smaller clans considering disbanding/retiring or even moving options.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Loswaith

[inthephonebox]

Some IRL friends and I set up a clan. It was just the four of us originally. We wanted to keep it just us four but it was clear we weren't going to be able to do anything with the current demands. Two of them actually stopped playing because of it. I moved to a slightly larger clan which was then absorbed by a larger clan, which was then absorbed by an even larger clan....etc, etc. I am now a member of a clan of over 2000. Didn't need to put any materials in, and now have a couple research weapons. Sure it got me the perks but thats not really what I cared about. I wanted to form a tight-knit gaming commmunity of me and my friend who could work together to build a headquarters of our very own and feel a sense of accomplishment after making rooms and completing research. Unfortunately the was dojos/research is currently set up clans under 50 cannot even make a dent, and even 50 members is on the low side for actually making this all feasible. It certainly needs an overhaul and I'm pretty sure the Devs said it was coming. But again, they considered 50 members to be a small clan...not 4.

[MetalGerbil]

my clan has one corridor built.

we also have enough for a reactor but waiting for the rebalance to put it in place. see what extra mats we can get to expand.

also its a solo clan, just me. still gona truck on.

while the entirety of the dojo is a lot to take in you can easily hit it in stages to get where you need to go. if a long term investment is enough to break up your motivation to play then maybe you should have shifted your focus to just having fun and getting there along the way.

too many people want everything now.

[Tayot84]

Most MMO's ive played had clan ownership for only premium members and that worked well because the premium members could just buy stuff for the clan.  But all of these clans made up of 6-10 free to play players wiil get swept up by large thousand member clans.  

[Andels]

Clan of 23 people, with only few daily players. Try to recruit people into the clan... Won't work.

"This clan has around 6 million people and everything done and more, why should i bother with those smaller clans".

Now, nobody appears to be willing to join smaller clans, because smaller clans don't have dojos done or research done.

Then again... with high resource cost, especially forma costs prevent smaller clans from ever being anything else than lost.

That said, our clan will not rest... We'll just keep spending what little time we can afford nowadays to farm resources, totally ruining the game experience. And hope that they weren't lying when they said they'll balance clans. Make smaller more viable.

[Mak_Gohae]

If your small clan broke up because of this it wasnt "tight knit."

 

Metal just mentioned he build one corridor and is going for the reactor which is exactly what i am doing. Forma is the one real problem here if you wanted to build it totally free but with friends you could, i guess, all contribute some cash to get it. 

[-Krux-]

I have a clan of about 70 ~ 80

That's just a number, there's gotta be like...idk.. 7 or 8 of us that keep close comms with each other and actively put materials in our dojo.

It's taking us a while, but we're not giving up. All I can see doing is continuing to recruit and hope more people can contribute and be a part of our little team.

 

Even forma, itself, is not an issue. We play together, as a clan... We do a run where there happens to be forma, well, that's 4 forma for the clan right off the bat. Keys are no issue for us for the same reason.

 

So if anyone here feels "defeated" and wants to join a tightly-knitted group of guys who keep working together, pm me and I'll shoot u an invite. We got teamspeak as well, and most importantly...we're not giving up. We're a team you can actually participate with.

[Aranhor]

My Clan members are 40. Its pretty hard, pretty hard.
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/54037-clan-armada-latina/?hl=%2Barmada+%2Blatina

Edited June 11, 2013 by Aranhor

[MajorLeakage]

Large clans make sense if you played large 40-50 player maps but in this you run in groups of four? So a large clan is not needed? 8-16 can play as a group everyday, that is what a clan is about! 4 member squads [as the game requires] running tight comms and strats...

 

I just don't want to be a forever trapped "in the mines"

Edited June 12, 2013 by Das-Boom

[LongDraw]

Yeah, my clan has roughly 20 members total, of which about 4-5 are more active.  We've already finished the cross connector hallway and have about 2500 Alloy Plate to finish our reactor.  Yeah, it's very difficult to expand as a smaller clan, but is it impossible?  No.  It just means that those members that do stick with you will appreciate your time and effort that you put in to make the dream become a reality.

 

Also, feel free to comment in the thread I started in this forum section about rebalancing dojo pricing.  I welcome comments both for and against as long as the reasoning is justified.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/62783-inter-clan-discussion-on-clan-dojo-pricing/

Edited June 12, 2013 by LongDraw

[Loswaith]

If your small clan broke up because of this it wasnt "tight knit."

...

Actually we havent broken up, we are considering our options as to what is best for the clan and it's members, which got me curious about what other small clans have done/doing to combat this issue.

 

Yes, sure we can get the rooms eventually, but we honestly dont care for grinding/farming and dont see the costs reducing that much (expecting them to maybe halve at most) for what will be a shadow clan.

With new content also still coming for the dojo and more weapon/warframe blueprints, the drain on member resources will only continue or increase.

 

As a member of a smaller clan I cant also in good concience tell potential recruits that we will get the new weapons anytime soon, which is a consideration for everyone, as there realy isn't anything stopping people being a part of different clans or even the same clan and still solely playing with only that smaller group of people they would otherwise have had as their own clan, so they get the best of both situations.

Having many subsets of cliques/groups in a larger guild isnt realy a good option for the running of those guilds either, I would expect.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Loswaith

[VScipii26]

There are exactly three people in my clan. Three real life friends. One is relatively inactive, one is active every two or three days, and I'm active essentially every day. We decided not to start anything drastic, due to costs apparently being scaled soon, but because of this we cannot gain any new members.

It's the "We currently have little done, but we have plans of staying small but building everything we can." vs. "We have 1462 members, everything built, you know absolutely nobody in it, but here have a BP."
Nobody wants to be in a clan that has plans. I want to be in a clan were being in a clan matters, which is the second biggest reason I started my own.

[Mak_Gohae]

Actually we havent broken up, we are considering our options as to what is best for the clan and it's members, which got me curious about what other small clans have done/doing to combat this issue.

 

Yes, sure we can get the rooms eventually, but we honestly dont care for grinding/farming and dont see the costs reducing that much (expecting them to maybe halve at most) for what will be a shadow clan.

With new content also still coming for the dojo and more weapon/warframe blueprints, the drain on member resources will only continue or increase.

 

As a member of a smaller clan I cant also in good concience tell potential recruits that we will get the new weapons anytime soon, which is a consideration for everyone, as there realy isn't anything stopping people being a part of different clans or even the same clan and still solely playing with only that smaller group of people they would otherwise have had as their own clan, so they get the best of both situations.

Having many subsets of cliques/groups in a larger guild isnt realy a good option for the running of those guilds either, I would expect.

 

Well, if it comes down to not wanting to wait any period of time... yeah go for a bigger clan.

 

Everyone that is in a smaller clan should be very aware of the advantages and disadvantages of doing this.

Like i said above, i play alone and i know it's going to be a loooong time before i see one new weapon and im ok with that.

[Loswaith]

The general presumption that small clans arent willing to wait is fallacious, however there are limits to how long you are willing to wait, as with everything else in the world.

 

Small clans are willing to wait (its why I put effort into the grindless Dojo method as an option for waiting allot longer on build times, thogh other sugestions were given too), though being expected to wait months at a time for individual hallways (let alone rooms) is a bit much to ask for what is essentially entertainment.  This is the current major issue for small clans, not that they have to wait maybe 1-2 months to start working on researching weapons, thus about 2 months to actually get the weapons, but 6+ months to get

 

Having played 6-8 weeks before the dojos and needing 3-4 people (playing 2-6 hours a day) to dump all resources gained (just by playing the game, with minimal grinding) in that 6-8 weeks to gather the resources for a simple hallway is an excessive wait.  We are actually lucky enough to have people willing to pay for the forma.  I'd hate to think how long it would take clans that dont have that option.

 

So your willing to wait 6+ months (I'm presuing you dont play 12 hours a day) to get the first weapon, given by that time there are likely many more rooms/weapons you want to research too?

Even the resarch costs to get everything will take about 7500 or so of the resources that drop as singles (abet fairly)

 

We are willing to wait out for the new costs to make our final decision but still dont see them being reduced to what is essentially about a quater of the current listing, which is a point at which it does become viable for smaller clans (even tiny you could say) to not have an excessive wait or grind.

 

Unfortunatly this wasnt what my aim was to discuss, but methods/plans/ideas other may have that we or other small clans may not have considered as an option.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Loswaith

[VanillaRegal]

Why would you possibly want to have fun with your friends? Become part of the horde and assimilate into the unknown. After all, strength in numbers is the only option if you have (1) a job, (2) a life outside of warframe, or (3) don't like to grind for s*** just so you can have a hallway leading to another empty room.

[Mak_Gohae]

The general presumption that small clans arent willing to wait is fallacious, however there are limits to how long you are willing to wait, as with everything else in the world.

 

Small clans are willing to wait (its why I put effort into the grindless Dojo method as an option for waiting allot longer on build times, thogh other sugestions were given too), though being expected to wait months at a time for individual hallways (let alone rooms) is a bit much to ask for what is essentially entertainment.  This is the current major issue for small clans, not that they have to wait maybe 1-2 months to start working on researching weapons, thus about 2 months to actually get the weapons, but 6+ months to get

 

Having played 6-8 weeks before the dojos and needing 3-4 people (playing 2-6 hours a day) to dump all resources gained (just by playing the game, with minimal grinding) in that 6-8 weeks to gather the resources for a simple hallway is an excessive wait.  We are actually lucky enough to have people willing to pay for the forma.  I'd hate to think how long it would take clans that dont have that option.

 

So your willing to wait 6+ months (I'm presuing you dont play 12 hours a day) to get the first weapon, given by that time there are likely many more rooms/weapons you want to research too?

Even the resarch costs to get everything will take about 7500 or so of the resources that drop as singles (abet fairly)

 

We are willing to wait out for the new costs to make our final decision but still dont see them being reduced to what is essentially about a quater of the current listing, which is a point at which it does become viable for smaller clans (even tiny you could say) to not have an excessive wait or grind.

 

Unfortunatly this wasnt what my aim was to discuss, but methods/plans/ideas other may have that we or other small clans may not have considered as an option.

 

 

Yes, the general presumption that small clans arent willing to wait is fallacious as shown in this thread where two people, one of them being me, mentioned that they are building their dojos alone and they are fine with the wait time. But there ARE a number of people who are not willing to wait and this includes you and your buddies as you explain on this thread. The system is now three weeks old and people are/were flipping out at 3, 2, even when it wasnt one week old. There are folks that have more likely not even attempted to get anything going to actually test how the system is and complaining about it like they know exactly what should be adjusted. So these estimates being thrown around about wait times very likely mean nothing at all as they are not based on actual attempts. 

 

If you are going to build a Dojo, much like weapons, you have to put time and work into gathering the recourse so dont, my any means at all, make a judgement on the mats based on how long it took you to gather what you have now because im sure this number was likely reached by people just running through a mission and picking up what was in front of them. If you are going to farm for a dojo you NEED to farm for a dojo, you NEED to open most, if not all, container, lockers, and kill as many things as you can.

 

Here is my thread where i am documenting my building of the dojo and you can take those numbers and multiply them by four or how many members of your clan to see what a group of people should probably be getting if they are actually putting some of their play time to actually farming materials for the dojo. These types of numbers are the numbers you should be basing your estimates on.

 

Basing your estimates on general play is the completely wrong way to look at this thing, which seems to be way a lot of folks did. Those numbers should be looked at based on actual farming times. I never had a problem building any of my stuff because i always picked up as many things as i could but in this board you get endless threads being made about "getting X thing for X weapons is too much"  because folks dont really go to open containers or lockers. You are not going to be able to build a dojo playing like that.

 

There are enough weapons in the game that going for dojo weapons is not needed but if you want to get those weapons you need to work for them. You are not going to get those weapons by just doing general play where you just run through a mission. People have been complaining for ever that they hate RNG and they rather have an extremely loooong goal to reach and when this is added people start flipping tables two seconds into release.

 

By the way, this post is not taking Forma into consideration because i DO agree that the forma requirements are bit of a road block. But DE has slightly adjusted the key drop rather so that should alleviate this a bit.

[-Krux-]

 

 

Yes, the general presumption that small clans arent willing to wait is fallacious as shown in this thread where two people, one of them being me, mentioned that they are building their dojos alone and they are fine with the wait time. But there ARE a number of people who are not willing to wait and this includes you and your buddies as you explain on this thread. The system is now three weeks old and people are/were flipping out at 3, 2, even when it wasnt one week old. There are folks that have more likely not even attempted to get anything going to actually test how the system is and complaining about it like they know exactly what should be adjusted. So these estimates being thrown around about wait times very likely mean nothing at all as they are not based on actual attempts. 

 

If you are going to build a Dojo, much like weapons, you have to put time and work into gathering the recourse so dont, my any means at all, make a judgement on the mats based on how long it took you to gather what you have now because im sure this number was likely reached by people just running through a mission and picking up what was in front of them. If you are going to farm for a dojo you NEED to farm for a dojo, you NEED to open most, if not all, container, lockers, and kill as many things as you can.

 

Here is my thread where i am documenting my building of the dojo and you can take those numbers and multiply them by four or how many members of your clan to see what a group of people should probably be getting if they are actually putting some of their play time to actually farming materials for the dojo. These types of numbers are the numbers you should be basing your estimates on.

 

Basing your estimates on general play is the completely wrong way to look at this thing, which seems to be way a lot of folks did. Those numbers should be looked at based on actual farming times. I never had a problem building any of my stuff because i always picked up as many things as i could but in this board you get endless threads being made about "getting X thing for X weapons is too much"  because folks dont really go to open containers or lockers. You are not going to be able to build a dojo playing like that.

 

There are enough weapons in the game that going for dojo weapons is not needed but if you want to get those weapons you need to work for them. You are not going to get those weapons by just doing general play where you just run through a mission. People have been complaining for ever that they hate RNG and they rather have an extremely loooong goal to reach and when this is added people start flipping tables two seconds into release.

 

By the way, this post is not taking Forma into consideration because i DO agree that the forma requirements are bit of a road block. But DE has slightly adjusted the key drop rather so that should alleviate this a bit.

tl;dr

 

DE will fix dojo req's, small clans will work in the near future.

[MyXmaN]

1) I was in a small clan some time ago. But, being the only active player in a 10-man clan is tough - if not impossible.

"oh, hey, you got a lot of resources - can you build us a cross-connector? whaddya mean you cannot? cant you farm some more?"

That was tough, to say the least.

 

2) I joined a HUUUGE clan. All the labs built, all the research done. Got all the blueprints for free. However it was close to impossible to find a stable party to play with. Huge clans are pretty much the same as public matches. You dont ever get to know anyone.

 

3) I joined a 30-man clan. Now this is something. We are building dojo together - even though the prices are high. I get to know people and play together and have fun.

[Mak_Gohae]

tl;dr

 

DE will fix dojo req's, small clans will work in the near future.

 

No, dojo req's are fine now, small clans work now.

People not wanting to put some work and wait a bit has nothing to do with the size of your clan. Like MyXman just mentioned, he was in a 10 man clan where he was the only one actively playing. The problem here was the time spent by the players and not the size of the clan.

 

The only problem with clans is the forma which DE has slightly corrected with the better key drop rate.

 

BTW, im sure people will STILL complain when the new numbers are released. Because i think they are not going to be that far off from what we got now.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Mak_Gohae

[LongDraw]

No, dojo req's are fine now, small clans work now.

People not wanting to put some work and wait a bit has nothing to do with the size of your clan. Like MyXman just mentioned, he was in a 10 man clan where he was the only one actively playing. The problem here was the time spent by the players and not the size of the clan.

 

The only problem with clans is the forma which DE has slightly corrected with the better key drop rate.

 

BTW, im sure people will STILL complain when the new numbers are released. Because i think they are not going to be that far off from what we got now.

Well, there was and still is a problem with dojo pricing.  The problem is that it is identical for a one man clan and a 2000 man clan.  Now who do you think can build their rooms faster?  Not saying it is impossible for a one man clan since there are days where I'm the only one doing gathering, and it is tough, but it is also not impossible.

[Gorillabear]

Near future... would love DE to respond to know what they think is NEAR though... days, weeks... months? Our 4 man group (only 2 active) alrdy got 2 crossconnectors, 1 reactor, 1 elevator, the oracle and almost done with the bio lab... Probably donated around 60-70% bij myself.

It sucks not knowing when they will fix this, cuz yes it is a FIX

[VER1]

It only takes a few shepards for the flock to follow I have found.

Once there are a few people 4 in a clan of 15 contributing, the sheep will follow and start doing the same.

 

A strong leader or leaders who contributed significant amounts towards the dojo is important for the lower ranked contributors to want to contribute.

 

A leader who is barely there, and does not contribute a significant amount tends to make the rest of the clan go the same way.

[Loswaith]

... Basing your estimates on general play is the completely wrong way to look at this thing, which seems to be way a lot of folks did. ...

So your basically saying that DE themselves have it wrong because they have stated on many occasions that farming is not the intended goal for the game, it is just the current state.

 

Though lets assume this is the case:

 

If I take your numbers, it takes a 4 person crew (1 squad) 2 weeks to get a single cross connector (lets assume without forma costs).

 

To get the basics of a room you need a minimum of 5 ends (oracle, power and the 3 labs), each cross connector nets you 2 additional ends, thus you need at a minimum 3 cross connectors (to not cripple future builds, keeping  a minimum of 2 spare).  Thusly 6 weeks of farming.

 

Now for the labs lets assume the same rate as the cross connectors so thats 2 weeks per room, so thats another 8 weeks.

 

Add to that a power plant, so another 2 weeks for that.

 

Giving a total of 16 weeks (ie. 4 months) for a functional for purely research dojo for 4 people constantly farming.

 

16 weeks to get to a point where you can even start researching anything you want.  Or 8 weeks (2 months) to simply get to start a single research station.  This is all presuming the gather rates are much the same as for the halls.

 

How can that not be considered an excessive wait?  To get to the point you can even start researching, you cant yet even get a blueprint.

 

Clearly what we consider a reasonable wait time is different.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Loswaith

[Taisho207]

 

Clearly what we consider a reasonable wait time is different.

 

I hear lots of "YOU dOnT waNT T0 W0rk for your D0j0" when we want more reasonable scaling. I think that your statement says how all of us in smaller clans feel when we get this response.

[FieryDrakkon]

I think that the amount of resources that construction requires should scale based on the amount of clan members you have. It could be based on an arithmetic sequence, for example: If you have one clan member, you need 5,000 of a common material. But for each clan member you add, the amount of resources that you need increases by 2,500 or something. It could be expressed as Tn (amount of resources needed) = 5,000 (initial amount of resources when you are the only member of a clan) + (n (total amount of clan members) -1) x 2,500 (amount of resources added for each additional clan member). Tn = 5,000 + (n - 1) 2,500. That way it would be more fair to smaller clans, while not favoring smaller or larger clans.