Lost Clans; Disapearance Of The Small Clan

[Mak_Gohae]

So your basically saying that DE themselves have it wrong because they have stated on many occasions that farming is not the intended goal for the game, it is just the current state.

 

 

They said grinding, grinding is not farming.

 

Though lets assume this is the case:

 

If I take your numbers, it takes a 4 person crew (1 squad) 2 weeks to get a single cross connector (lets assume without forma costs).

 

To get the basics of a room you need a minimum of 5 ends (oracle, power and the 3 labs), each cross connector nets you 2 additional ends, thus you need at a minimum 3 cross connectors (to not cripple future builds, keeping  a minimum of 2 spare).  Thusly 6 weeks of farming.

 

Now for the labs lets assume the same rate as the cross connectors so thats 2 weeks per room, so thats another 8 weeks.

 

Add to that a power plant, so another 2 weeks for that.

 

Giving a total of 16 weeks (ie. 4 months) for a functional for purely research dojo for 4 people constantly farming.

 

16 weeks to get to a point where you can even start researching anything you want.  Or 8 weeks (2 months) to simply get to start a single research station.  This is all presuming the gather rates are much the same as for the halls.

 

How can that not be considered an excessive wait?  To get to the point you can even start researching, you cant yet even get a blueprint.

 

Clearly what we consider a reasonable wait time is different.

 

Clearly we do, i've played a good amount of MMORPGS and for building homes or, hek, trying to get some kick &#! armor set, this is a normal wait time. 

 

Plus i mention again, a lot of folks complain about the game having nothing to do and they said they would be fine with having a goal that takes a long time to reach. Fine, they added something like this and now there is some complaining because its tooooo long a wait. If you arent willing to work and wait for it then dont do it, It's that simple. But then.... you know..... you are left with the,  "There is nothing to do in this game."

 

The game gives you X amount of time of content while during that time new things will be added and you complain? Come on. You are complaining that the game has now given you 4 months to play. That's hooooooorrible!

[Loswaith]

Actually I'm saying the game is forcing small clans to do months of constant grinding/farming being the only way to get some weapons or join bigger ones.  Though the discussion was about finding alternatives to disbanding because of the grind/farm.  Not about who is or isnt willing to wait, farm/grind, but thanks for devolving my topic into that.

 

Farming/Grinding is not content nor fun for long (unless you actually enjoy doing that), it's work (thats what a job is for).  Games are about entertainment.

 

Grinding and farming are exactly the same thing, repeating the same processing in order to get what you are after.  Farming is the term typically used for gaining items, while grinding is the term typically used for gaining levels.  Levels (ranks in the case of warframe) are a moot point in Warframe and easy to get, clearly DE was talking about the gaining of mods, though the same factor can be subsumed into resource gathers as it is the same process you would use to gather mods.

Farming is also often used as the positive term while grinding is the negative term of the same process.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Loswaith

[Mak_Gohae]

Actually I'm saying the game is forcing small clans to do months of constant grinding/farming being the only way to get some weapons or join bigger ones.  Though the discussion was about finding alternatives to disbanding because of the grind/farm.  Not about who is or isnt willing to wait, farm/grind, but thanks for devolving my topic into that.

 

 

Yes, pretty much ANY game out there where people can work in teams has the result of people working in fewer numbers taking longer to achieve a task. How is this news? Like i've been saying for a while now, both choices have advantages and disadvantages, so acknowledge your choice of a small clan and accept your disadvantages.  Forma needs to be looked at but if it's treated like Orokin stuff by DE that is unlikely to change dramatically. The rest of the mats are completely fine.

 

 

 

Farming/Grinding is not content nor fun for long (unless you actually enjoy doing that), it's work (thats what a job is for).  Games are about entertainment.

 

Grinding and farming are exactly the same thing, repeating the same processing in order to get what you are after.  Farming is the term typically used for gaining items, while grinding is the term typically used for gaining levels.  Levels (ranks in the case of warframe) are a moot point in Warframe and easy to get, clearly DE was talking about the gaining of mods, though the same factor can be subsumed into resource gathers as it is the same process you would use to gather mods.

Farming is also often used as the positive term while grinding is the negative term of the same process.

 

Farming and grinding are not the same thing, how you farm is entirely up to you and you can turn that into a grind but you can turn anything into a grind.

[Aranhor]

This game requires the players to feel that they really belong to a clan. because so far no clear advantages in this respect, it is beyond the classroom or laboratory duels. Half of my clan, keeps asking me what's so good to play in a clan? and try to explain that we can develop new weapons. and they just say:-uhm. but we are few and costs a lot. -

 

Having a more direct communication with members of the clan is hard difficult, because the chat is too hidden, and messages are not saved.

 

So I as a player, I think I speak for all the warlords, to seek a better system of internal communication with members of the Clan, also raise the identity of the same, as many players have wanted to recruit express their lack of interest is in a clan.

 

(if I do not speak for everyone, I apologize.)

(I'd like someone to take account of founder and whose flag this topic, because I think it would be more taken into account.) **

(sorry this mistranslation.)

[FLSH_BNG]

50 members is small? I can't remember that many names without a list and a photo of the person in question!

 

I'd hate to see what constitutes a large clan... the entire population of the US eastern seaboard?

[Invino]

For a game that tops out at 4 in group, DE sure thinks everyone is in a 100+ strong clan.

Even with 10 folks actively farming flipping Polymer and Circuits .. since all stocks are gone, takes 2 weeks per item almost.

Calling something Alpha and then saying everyone is too busy to fix obviously exaggerated cost is a bit of cop out and sadly Has dragged a great game into disrepute. Forging small strong groups and then requiring everyone to be in 100 man guild (with this chat system no less) is going to cost.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Invino

[Fluffbane]

First, note that I'm in a relatively small, quiet clan, and am constantly impressed by how much we have accomplished with the 'few obsessive, many casual' distribution described here. However, this really is a major sticking point at the moment for a lot of people.

 

There are two main issues people seem to have here, both more or less relating to what people find entertaining and worthwhile. First, many people playing a game want to turn it on, mess about for a bit, and feel like they've accomplished something. Doing the same mission repeatedly for three hours so you can throw 3,000 beans into a bin that holds 50,000 beans doesn't feel like an accomplishment. It just feels like throwing away good beans, especially when you also have things you want to do with your beans. Then you look over at the three other 50,000 bean bins you have to fill to get anything. Human beings, in general, just don't seem to like performing what appears to them like sisyphean labor.

 

The second issue is that, sure, a dojo with stuff is indeed a fine end goal. But let's contrast the gameplay of that with your normal MMORPG raid progression. In the normal MMO dungeon experience, you might spend months trying to beat a particular boss with your little close group. You get closer and closer, and then finally there's a victory, a payoff of months of learning difficult patterns, etc. Then, once that's done, you have a new, completely different boss and collection of content to work on.

 

Now look at what we have here: there's not a great and complicated wall of skill that must be surmounted. It is, in its entirety, a time sink. So you spend months killing basic enemies repeatedly, and the big payout is...a hallway. And then, beyond that is more of the exact same enemies you were killing before, to reach the grand payout of another hallway. There's a very distinct difference between those two things, one has challenge and constant novelty, the other is, well, picking beans and throwing them in a bin to the exclusion of all other activities. Which might work great preparing for winter, but really doesn't sell as a video game.

 

That said, I do think there is probably some sort of middle ground that can be reached, since as other games have shown some people are entertained by endless mining or shoe making, and that's totally groovy. It probably describes me a lot of the time. On the other hand, many people will want to feel some sort of progression, and even moderate requirements would alleviate a lot of that tension.

 

P.S. Pretty please don't use that analogy to derail us into the Harvest Moon games.

[Invino]

Polymer and Circuits are a huge sticking point now. Each planet they drop on has other things that seem to drop more often.

[GTG3000]

Welp. I said it before and I'll say it again - the dojo system is too simple, especially since it revolves around a slider of headcount, that goes from "you gotta work for it" and then straight through the roof of what the prices are intended to be balanced for. 

 

I have a clan of 30, and I wouldn't say that the prices are prohibitive, even though most of my clanmates don't come in daily. I wouldn't say I would want to go bigger, either. But I guess we all feel the same - the feeling of accomplishment the dojo is supposed to bring is somewhat diluted when you are compared to a clan, that can afford to have hundreds of leeches and has everything built.

[Ced23Ric]

Near future... would love DE to respond to know what they think is NEAR though... days, weeks... months?

 

Here's the answer, directly from DESteve:

(jumps directly to the answer)

[LongDraw]

 

Here's the answer, directly from DESteve:

(jumps directly to the answer)

Uhh, without making any promises, a few weeks???  How does that answer the question?  If I told the bank I would be, without making any promises, making a payment in a few weeks on my mortgage, they'd foreclose on me.

 

How about, we anticipate within 3 weeks, or less than a month, or something to that effect?

[Ced23Ric]

The question is: When does the change come?

The answer is: When it's ready - looks like a few weeks.

 

Why is not clearer? Because he cannot give you a distinct date and doesn't want to disappoint with an answer he cannot uphold. Don't promise things you cannot make come true. Giving an estimate sounds like a fair deal to me.

[LongDraw]

A clearer answer would be something like "Our goal is to have this change come in X time frame".  It doesn't make a promise, but it also imforms the playerbase about what realistic timeframe the developers are thinking the changes will take.

[Ced23Ric]

At that point, you are argueing semantics past the actual content, LongDraw. Both "a few weeks" and "aiming for 2 to three weeks" claim more or less the same.

[VER1]

IMO when someone says a few weeks, it means less than a month.

 

So most likely to expect the update to arrive before a months time e.g. 30-31 days fromp when Steve stated 'weeks' for the next update.

 

The big guy (Scott?) next to Steve also mentioned other projects are coming to a close and the people from those projects are getting diverted straight to Warframe.

[LongDraw]

At that point, you are argueing semantics past the actual content, LongDraw. Both "a few weeks" and "aiming for 2 to three weeks" claim more or less the same.

I don't know Ced23Ric.  Kind of reminds me of a joke another game's developers had when responding to questions about their next updates "It'll be before Christmas".  Which Christmas, who knows?  But it'll be before it!  LOL!  Seriously, at least tell us if your time frame goal is for before August at least.  At least we know what the developers are realistically hoping for.

[Ced23Ric]

I'd hope for two weeks and expect a peak of five. Does that help you? Hardly. My guess is as good as anyone's, I presume.

[GTG3000]

I guess we'll all see it done someday. The only problem I have is that large chunk of my clan decided to stop farming for dojo until that update is done. But eh.

[bluehawk1976]

"We are the Borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. "

I don't think so. If you are a group that enjoys playing with each other, and you are having fun, I would digest waiting for clan fix.

I noticed that once DE said they were going to do something, those that did not wait regreted their hasty action.

I find the tendency to want everything NOW! both weird and worrying. I have played this game for 307 hours so far, built 4 warframes and have 3 more cooking (the result of farming for parts). Yes I want to explore more, get some interesting weapons, but this doesn't define the game for me. I think all those who only want the new will stop playing eventually, the amount of new content will be reduced a lot once the game launches officially.

Those of us who enjoy the game itself will still have fun then.

[Eidolus]

I've really honestly hated the whole clan research deal personally.

But I suppose that'd be because of the way I play this game, or rather how I don't play this game as I aparently was intended to.

 

I usually play with one (or two sometimes) other good friends of mine,

and dislike the run-and-gun shenanigans that happen when four people are in play.

No show of skill or amount of play nor grinding will ever probably allow us to get our hands on any of those new weapons.

 

Most people I've spoken to about it tell me upfront that I should join a large clan and "Leave once you get what you wanted, they'll be too big to notice anyway" which kind-of utterly defeats the point of ever contributing anyway. And I usually avoid clans as a rule of thumb due to the incredible drama that always ensues at the drop of a hat. Kind of makes sense to do so even if you're fond of the idea because all it would take is one angry clan-leader and then bam, all that stuff you contributed doesn't matter because they kicked you out.

 

I don't know honestly, it is really cool people got to get together and work on something and got something neat out of it, But I feel like they forgot about the few of us who like to play with a couple of buds to just relax.

 

I'm still pretty irked about my snipetron only having four shots too, I miss my fifteen-round-per-mag sniper.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Eidolus

[GTG3000]

Yeah, the whole clan deal is there for me only because of the new weapons... And, quite honestly, the game isn't too much fun when all your friends are tired of doing same grindy farming over and over. 

 

I don't think I'd be able to bring them all back into the game easily. Well, at least the people who hoped for quick clan weapons left, so we fit under "shadow" clan limit.

Edited June 25, 2013 by GTG3000

[JustDont]

I find such topics kind of weird given that current construction costs are pretty much manageable even for a single person to get. Although it will definitely take time, but "manageable" amounts of time, months instead of years for a relaxed tempo. Maybe except forma costs.

 

Compared to games like EVE or some korean or korean-like grindfests, where some "special" kinds of stuff are COMPLETELY out of reach for a single person.

[GTG3000]

Well, there's little BUT grind in this game right now. And this topic dates back to the whole negativity sudden prices brought. Sure we all understand that they are manageable, it just doesn't stop us from chatting about them.

[JustDont]

Well, there's little BUT grind in this game right now.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was like that from the very beginning, and it doesn't look like it's going to change any time soon.

 

At the moment, there's nothing to do but run missions, and even the hardest missions aren't really that hard if you got proper equipment and teammates who know how to play.

 

PS: And I find it really unlikely that future end-game content will be skill-based (i.e. shoot & run & kill things like you did in good old multiplayer Quake), because it's the consoles generation nowadays, and people are playing with controllers. And we all know you can't shoot with a controller the same way you do with mouse. So, I'd say 95% chance that even the future end-game content will be grind-based too.

[GTG3000]

Well. How about another grind idea then? Go and spit into the face of every person, who plays shooters with a controller. That will at least bring satisfaction.

 

On a serious note, the grind is supposed to be diluted in the game content, not to mention leaning less on RNG. I can see future updates bringing more and more clarity to "you want this, you go there". I certainly hope thought that DE will aim at keeping players, rather than providing a game that will live on new players while not providing much endgame besides self-inflicted challenges. There can be much more to skill than rungunfun (which we already have), not to mention that I don't mind grinding through mission if they adjust reward to be worth the effort. A really tough and long non-defence mission that gave a big reward would be splendid indeed.