*Sortie third mission now has a chance to be an Assassination mission against a functionally unkillable boss!

[rawr1254]

10 minutes ago, Retepzednem said:

definetly this even without the sortie he is the most hated boss in the game

 

with the exception of people running specific warframes and specific loadouts such as loki , not only is hek a bullet sponge but he has a 4 pixels wide hitbox wich rotates while hovering and rotating  midair  and is invulnerable most of the time, sadly i wasnt lucky to run with a party with one of the chosen warframes and my party gave up after an hour  as it took  50 minutes just to defeat  him on  flying form 

 

he has too much of everything, mobility, armor,hp, invulnerability, heal, energy drain, passive attacks  

Let me guess. Everyone used Rhino. Everyone used Soma P/Boltor P. None of the 4 rhinos used roar. No one had corrosive projection since everyone had rhinos with minimum formas. No one killed the other enemies so he kept healing.  

Edited April 1, 2016 by rawr1254

[Vohim]

Just now, rawr1254 said:

Let me guess. Everyone used Rhino. Everyone used Soma P/Boltor P. None of the 4 rhinos used roar. No one had corrosive projection since every had rhinos with minimum formas. No one killed the other enemies so he kept healing.  

no one used rhino nor nova nor loki  1 had a paris 1 had a boltor and idk about the other guy had  and no one had corrosive projection  we did kill the other enemies just fine just werent doin much damage  mostly cuz he kept spinning   we only got him to phase two because i  and other guy had explosives

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 minutes ago, rawr1254 said:

Let me guess. Everyone used Rhino. Everyone used Soma P/Boltor P. None of the 4 rhinos used roar. No one had corrosive projection since everyone had rhinos with minimum formas. No one killed the other enemies so he kept healing.  

That moment when someone is referring to Soma/Boltor Primes implicatively as bad weapons.

The power creep is real. Spare a thought for the fact that those used to be absolutely top tier and haven't been nerfed in order to make them such 'bad' weapons in your current perspective.

Edited April 1, 2016 by EDYinnit

[rawr1254]

1 minute ago, Retepzednem said:

no one used rhino nor nova nor loki  1 had a paris 1 had a boltor and idk about the other guy had  and no one had corrosive projection  we did kill the other enemies just fine just werent doin much damage  mostly cuz he kept spinning   we only got him to phase two because i  and other guy had explosives

No CP :| Your shooting through tons of damage reduction. go with cp and you could even win with limbo...

[rawr1254]

2 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

That moment when someone is referring to Soma/Boltor Primes as bad weapons.

The power creep is real. Spare a thought for the fact that those used to be absolutely top tier and haven't been nerfed in order to make them such 'bad' weapons in your current perspective.

In a situation where you're fighting a bullet sponge, yea soma p/boltor p is a bad choice. Youll run out of ammo real quick and get tired of doing nothing but 0-100 damage per hit.

Edited April 1, 2016 by rawr1254

[Vohim]

and what  i did next was go   full cp and red crit tonkor  went from 4-40 damage to 4x1000+ per shot   

took about 15 mins to beat 

Edited April 1, 2016 by Retepzednem

[TheLexiConArtist]

5 minutes ago, rawr1254 said:

No CP :| Your shooting through tons of damage reduction. go with cp and you could even win with limbo...

2 minutes ago, rawr1254 said:

In a situation where you're fighting a bullet sponge, yea soma p/boltor p is a bad choice. Youll run out of ammo real quick and get tired of doing nothing but 100 damage per hit.

Freedom of choice.

Just because you can go 4CP doesn't mean you should have to in static content. Not everyone even owns it - what about people who just haven't spotted an alert for one yet?

Same with having Corrosive on your weapon. My Toxin/crit Dread dealt 500 damage on a redcrit for crying out loud. And toxin even provides a 25% armour ignore due to the weakness!

 

Oh, and there's also the fact that Vay Hek ignores most proc effects. Slash bleeds still ticked for 0 even before he'd closed his face off. Yeah, well there goes my major anti-armour damage despite the target not even being conventionally proc immune.

 

Look, we've known scaling is absolutely ridiculous for a long time, but there's a big difference between it getting completely unmanageable without specifically targeting it at levels only accessed in Endless missions and being unmanageable in defined, preset levels.

[Stratego89]

9 hours ago, WolfTitan said:

I spent 15 minutes using Boltor Prime on today's boss (Vay Hek) and only got his heath down by only 5%. I would imagine that soloing this boss would use up tremendous ammo/health refills and take a few hours to kill.

I'm against Level 100 bosses.

Well that's because Boltor Prime sucks... It's probably possible with most other weapons. :D

Being more serious though- yeah. This is absolutely ridiculous. I saw the mission and did not even attempt the sorties. It's not worth it because there's no way I could do it alone- don't feel like finding (competent) players to do it with- and it would just waste my time if I did try because I probably would not succeed or at least it would be so slow going that it would be literally not worth the TIME.

[JHarlequin]

 It is a bit of info about a couple of basic things.  Some bosses have way too much invulnerability time to be reasonable and thus they aren't challenging, just crap.  And the sortie still just reinforces the same old crappy tricks.  No skill, no effort, just find a gimmick and abuse it.

 Though someone was right, the weapon only limitations which have been mentioned as problems before are still going to be even worse sometimes if it ever happens on an assassination.

[Nazrethim]

I like that Sorties now have bosses. The only bad part is that it started with the sh*ttiest boss EVER. It could have been Lephantis, Hyena Pack, Alad V, Raptor or hell even the godam Jordas! But no, it was the must dumb and annoying boss in the whole origin system.

[Giantconch]

I just completed this, and it took under 10 minutes total for the final mission.

 

Team:

 

Slow Nova

EV trin

Bless trin

Bladespam ash

 

Weapons: Boltor prime, 2 tonkors, vaykor hek, set up for radiation, all secondaries were sonicor

 

3x corrosive projections, only 1 coaction drift, and 1 rejuvination

 

Tactic for Flying Screaming Prick stage:

 

Sonicor when he starts screaming. Ash to bladestorm and take out all the little chumps that spawn around.

 

Tactic for Turkey:

 

Shoot. Shoot lots.

 

***This was neither too horribly difficult nor too easy IMHO. Imagine how much hate DE would be recieving if this was something actually REALLY hard like a sniper/bow only challenge...

Edited April 1, 2016 by giantconch

[-Temp0-]

1 hour ago, giantconch said:

I just completed this, and it took under 10 minutes total for the final mission.

 

Team:

 

Slow Nova

EV trin

Bless trin

Bladespam ash

You just literally used the most broken combo, not only the whole team had 1. energy at will (and that under energy reduction condition) 2. was invincible 3. used the most cheesy as they call it here frame that ignore armor and hits like a truck 4. everything else was slowed to a crawl and damage buffed because of nova. 5. oh and of course cp (tho not that needed here). Well, Ash's rework is on the way tho. 

[Giantconch]

12 minutes ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

You just literally used the most broken combo, not only the whole team had 1. energy at will (and that under energy reduction condition) 2. was invincible 3. used the most cheesy as they call it here frame that ignore armor and hits like a truck 4. everything else was slowed to a crawl and damage buffed because of nova. 5. oh and of course cp (tho not that needed here). Well, Ash's rework is on the way tho. 

 

Actually, its Mags rework thats on the way.

 

WE picked a team combination that we knew would work great on completing the task at hand. Like, are you trying to give me grief because of that? Are you angry at me because I didnt run in with crap like a wukong, zephyr, nezha and banshee and get my &#! kicked around 5 times struggling?

[CY13ERPUNK]

15 hours ago, WolfTitan said:

I spent 15 minutes using Boltor Prime on today's boss (Vay Hek) and only got his heath down by only 5%. I would imagine that soloing this boss would use up tremendous ammo/health refills and take a few hours to kill.

I'm against Level 100 bosses.

there is nothing technically wrong with lvl 100 bosses in general

the problem is largely very specific to the vay hek encounter itself, most other boss fights would not be this awful

also let me be clear, im fine with the boss being difficult/hard/etc, but vay hek's specific boss fight design is just awful in a 1000 different ways and needs an overhaul

even more specifically, invul phases for bosses are incredibly poorly done in WF, they need more counterplay and telegraph, as well as being reduced to 90-95% dmg reduc and not complete invul

15 hours ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

Melee only boss fight vs Vay Kek. I... I don't want to think too much about it.

^^^^^^^^^^^ and  of course this, would probably be largely functionally impossible, considering the technical design of the vay hek bossfight encounter, just another reason for it to be reworked

Edited April 1, 2016 by CY13ERPUNK

[Nesit1]

You actually need just those things:

1).SlowNova.

2).Any possible way to reduce armor.

3).Snipers/Bows

4).Eagle eye (not mod, i mean good aim, you got it).

Seeking Shuriken Ash is most easy choice for that. I completed it by playing this Ash with Snipetron V (and SlowNova in team). Never had a problem with his "regeneration"

[IceColdHawk]

6 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Same with having Corrosive on your weapon. My Toxin/crit Dread dealt 500 damage on a redcrit for crying out loud. And toxin even provides a 25% armour ignore due to the weakness!

Wrong. Toxin doesn't ignore 25% armor. It only does +25% more damage to ferrite armor. And that's low. It gets completely nullified by the sheer amount of armor grineer have.

Also i got a question, are you still struggling with the boss?

[OvAeons]

my Pug squad had no issue fighting him... load out was Inaros(me)/ /Frost/ /Trin/ /Mirage

i used kohm, wrecks him but i used it too much before the final fight so i was low on ammo.

ways to make it easier: 4x CP and viral weapons. ANY kind of buff. Banshee might still work, not sure, Chroma is a good solo buff which would make him laughably easy. otherwise TE mirage is good too. pretty sure avalanche will still freeze him solid

anything that can slow him before final fight will work wonders as well.

Edited April 1, 2016 by OvAeons

[EvilChaosKnight]

Just now, IceColdHawk said:

Wrong. Toxin doesn't ignore 25% armor. It only does +25% more damage to ferrite armor. And that's low. It gets completely nullified by the sheer amount of armor grineer have.

Also i got a question, are you still struggling with the boss?

My corrosive-puncture 5 forma Opticor with displayed damage of well over 23k was doing a whooping 2x 1165 per fully charged shot (no CP). Seems legit.

Better yet. Terra frame is reported to have 200 base ferrite armor by the codex which is 3 times lower than heavy gunner base armor. So where's all the damage reduction is coming from?

[IceColdHawk]

Just now, EvilChaosKnight said:

My corrosive-puncture 5 forma Opticor with displayed damage of well over 23k was doing a whooping 2x 1165 per fully charged shot (no CP). Seems legit.

Better yet. Terra frame is reported to have 200 base ferrite armor by the codex which is 3 times lower than heavy gunner base armor. So where's all the damage reduction is coming from?

Level 100 and...

• Vay Hek can deploy up to 2 Propaganda Drones at once, which hover slowly above the field. They constantly emit a field that buffs the damage and defenses of any nearby Grineer. At the same time, Tenno within range have their maximum shields reduced.

[--Q--uaint]

20 hours ago, WolfTitan said:

would imagine that soloing this boss would use up tremendous ammo/health refills and take a few hours to kill.

19 hours ago, MyTagforHalo said:

Corrosive projection shouldn’t be required to complete a mission. I dont care if it takes a inventory of ammo plates to beat something, it shouldn’t be capable of then healing itself back to max health -.-  

16 hours ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

Yep, basically go meta or go home boss fight. No fun allowed, folks!

_{*This advertisment is sponsored by the Anti-Fun Police. Sign up today for a free bundle of Tonkor, Loki, and War!}

A public service announcement by Oberon: 

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

5 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

A public service announcement by Oberon: 

That 240p video. Don't know if Youtube is just refusing to give better options or you recorded it in Vaseline-o-vision.

 

What I can see still proves cheapmoding it:

Tonkor

Infinite energy because Rage doesn't get penalised by energy reduction (patch pls)

using the most broken weapon in the game

Infinite energy allows ignoring magnetic procs without having to stay at range (and the likelihood of Vay Hek leeching from enemy units)

Tonkor autokills all enemies in range, further avoiding any possibility of healing

Infinite energy also allows practically infinite health in this case

did I mention the Tonkor

 

I don't see how this proves anything. Except maybe that Oberon isn't quite as bad as people claim.

10 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Wrong. Toxin doesn't ignore 25% armor. It only does +25% more damage to ferrite armor. And that's low. It gets completely nullified by the sheer amount of armor grineer have.

Also i got a question, are you still struggling with the boss?

Don't all armour weaknesses also confer the same in effective armour ignorance? Corrosive deals +75% and also ignores 75% of the armour value, etc.

I mentioned already that I defeated him in the end, mainly due to him getting stuck where he couldn't heal and the Tonkor-using allies wearing him down. Can't say exactly what proportion of the damage was mine, but I have my doubts that it was much, after being reduced to a pitiful 250-500 per arrow.

 

Honestly, it's just the flying phase with its temporary and tiny hitbox, making it too difficult to actually wear him down reliably (and the spammed instant megnetic procs forcing distance or death); the Terra Frame itself was nothing in comparison. I just couldn't get to that phase solo. Wasn't even using my Dread that first time either, had a corrosive sniper (under the concept that making every shot count on small and temporary hitboxes is best, and hitscan would mitigate the erratic motions that deny traveltime arrows)... the healing was just too strong.

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts, an always-damageable boss could have been worn down despite the healing, or the temp-vulnerable hitbox annoying but defeatable if not healing back up... But we have to nip this in the bud before we get even worse mixtures of augment and boss mechanics. Playtesting please.

 

A higher level and augmented Lephantis or Rotten Salad.. don't sound pleasant.

If they allow these missions to continue being significantly less approachable than the normal sortie 3 missions, there should at least be additional reward for completing it. An extra 25*r5 pack, like we had temporarily a while back, perhaps.

[IceColdHawk]

Just now, EDYinnit said:

Don't all armour weaknesses also confer the same in effective armour ignorance? Corrosive deals +75% and also ignores 75% of the armour value, etc.

Nope. It only increases your damage. But the armor is not touched and will still reduce your damage from the target's armor.

1 minute ago, EDYinnit said:

If they allow these missions to continue being significantly less approachable than the normal sortie 3 missions, there should at least be additional reward for completing it. An extra 25*r5 pack, like we had temporarily a while back, perhaps.

I'm all in for extra loot! But don't make sorties easier than they already are. The only thing we need is a better reward system so people can actually feel rewarded. 

[--Q--uaint]

13 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

That 240p video. Don't know if Youtube is just refusing to give better options or you recorded it in Vaseline-o-vision.

 

What I can see still proves cheapmoding it:

Tonkor

Infinite energy because Rage doesn't get penalised by energy reduction (patch pls)

using the most broken weapon in the game

Infinite energy allows ignoring magnetic procs without having to stay at range (and the likelihood of Vay Hek leeching from enemy units)

Tonkor autokills all enemies in range, further avoiding any possibility of healing

Infinite energy also allows practically infinite health in this case

did I mention the Tonkor

 

I don't see how this proves anything. Except maybe that Oberon isn't quite as bad as people claim.

Sorry lol. I recorded it in higher quality, but youtube hates me.

Tonkor? You mean bringing a weapon that deals actual damage? Hek is overly-difficult to hit without full auto, hitscan, and/or AoE. I had one of those things and a lot of damage output. Also, Tonkor is far from cheap since it requires actual ability to aim, IMO. I didn't use it for quite a while because I didn't think I was good enough to use it well enough to be worth using.

I still had a cap of 150 energy, with a R9 Primed Flow. That sharply reduces the utility of Rage.

Infinite energy does no such thing. Magnetic procs destroy you however much energy and energy income you have, if they happen at the wrong time. Hek does them all the time. Rage will NOT help you if Hek can freely magnetic proc your face off.
I used Hallowed Ground's proc-immunity to keep my energy stores intact.

Tonkor does no such thing. You have to aim and hit people, and the AoE is definitely not huge. It's bigger than it looks, sure, but it's not huge.

There was definitely no "practically infinite health." I died more than once.

Yes, you mentioned the Tonkor.

 

Eh, you may be right. Except that Oberon really is as bad as people claim.

CC immunity is not particularly niche, but Hallowed Ground is not a particularly good vehicle for delivering it unless you're camping. Smite is good, as #1 powers go. #3 isn't bad, but it's eclipsed by Trinity by so much it's not funny. #4 is Irradiated Disarm with less range and without the disarm... the fact that it does damage is mostly irrelevant.

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 minute ago, IceColdHawk said:

Nope. It only increases your damage. But the armor is not touched and will still reduce your damage from the target's armor.

I'm all in for extra loot! But don't make sorties easier than they already are. The only thing we need is a better reward system so people can actually feel rewarded. 

That doesn't seem to correspond with the wiki's stated fact or the effect that my aforementioned corrosive sniper enjoyed compared to my Dread, getting >5k on a yellow crit where my Dread got only 10% of that on a redcrit (and with a far higher on-paper damage after crit multiplier). Armour calculations are hilariously awkward and oppressive, there's no wonder most people would rather just run 4CP than contend with 'can I actually damage this unit effectively y/n'.

 

It's not about making sorties easier, it's about opposing an oppressive increase in difficulty with no compensation.

Arguably, when the elemental and physical enhancements got their offensive and defensive properties merged, it should have had the exact same opposition. There's nothing but artificial difficulty in making enemies incredibly stronger in both axes at once.

But because the meta still wins no matter how artificial the difficulty gets, it only hurts people who would like to play the rest of the game's offerings and further enforces the comparitive strength of the favoured options. That's what happens when you address a symptom instead of a cause.

I for one do not enjoy being instantly killed in less than the average human reaction time by as few as 2 or 3 mook enemies if they're ever not crowd controlled. Including the fact that unlike most people, I generally beef my EHP up with redirection and vitality.

3 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Sorry lol. I recorded it in higher quality, but youtube hates me.

Tonkor? You mean bringing a weapon that deals actual damage? Hek is overly-difficult to hit without full auto, hitscan, and/or AoE. I had one of those things and a lot of damage output. Also, Tonkor is far from cheap since it requires actual ability to aim, IMO. I didn't use it for quite a while because I didn't think I was good enough to use it well enough to be worth using.

I still had a cap of 150 energy, with a R9 Primed Flow. That sharply reduces the utility of Rage.

Infinite energy does no such thing. Magnetic procs destroy you however much energy and energy income you have, if they happen at the wrong time. Hek does them all the time. Rage will NOT help you if Hek can freely magnetic proc your face off.
I used Hallowed Ground's proc-immunity to keep my energy stores intact.

Tonkor does no such thing. You have to aim and hit people, and the AoE is definitely not huge. It's bigger than it looks, sure, but it's not huge.

There was definitely no "practically infinite health." I died more than once.

Yes, you mentioned the Tonkor.

 

Eh, you may be right. Except that Oberon really is as bad as people claim.

CC immunity is not particularly niche, but Hallowed Ground is not a particularly good vehicle for delivering it unless you're camping. Smite is good, as #1 powers go. #3 isn't bad, but it's eclipsed by Trinity by so much it's not funny. #4 is Irradiated Disarm with less range and without the disarm... the fact that it does damage is mostly irrelevant.

I've had a long argument about the fact that the Tonkor is utterly broken. It's inarguably cheap, because zero of its downsides aren't already fully compensated for, and it essentially completely lacks the biggest one of all (self damage). You have an aim-guide, that's more than I get with a precision weapon like a bow, which has to actually aim for heads.

It's less about the cap and more about the mannerisms of generating it in that infinite cycle. I separated the points of the whole, but remember that these were only specifically capable to the Oberon (and Trinity, although she'd have just as much issue with staying alive with her lack of armour despite extra DR from Link, and energy is actually harder to come by since I'm pretty sure she can't EV Hek, at least while he's hiding his ugly mug). What about the other 27 warframes without such luxuries? Most of them will be procced and killed, or at the very least worn down because of the non-cyclic Rage health->energy conversion (lacking heals from that energy).

 

The title of the thread may be hyperbole, but you can't expect people to have a certain one of 2-3 warframes out of 29. They might not have the slots, or just don't favour those frames enough to potato and forma them up. You can't expect everyone to subject themselves to abject easymoding by using a Tonkor. Can't stand it myself, noobiest noob tube in the history of noob tubes.

It's just badly designed if a player can get into a stalemate position like I was in. I couldn't die, but I couldn't win through attrition either because he'd just heal up - and I wasn't close enough to easily clear out the enemy spawns with my weapon choices and for fear of Magnetic death. Meanwhile the player is getting frustrated, due to it being difficult enough to even hit Hek most of the time (again, without using... certain weapons).

[--Q--uaint]

8 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

But because the meta still wins no matter how artificial the difficulty gets, it only hurts people who would like to play the rest of the game's offerings and further enforces the comparitive strength of the favoured options. That's what happens when you address a symptom instead of a cause.

This is my main problem with Sorties, and with the "difficulty" of this game in general. Nullifiers? Boltor Prime, Soma Prime, Tonkor, Synoid Simulor. Bursas? CC or DR and a Sancti Tigris/Tonkor.

The sad thing is that there are other setups that also deal with them well, but they are more difficult to make work and generally have more downsides.

12 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

I've had a long argument about the fact that the Tonkor is utterly broken. It's inarguably cheap, because zero of its downsides aren't already fully compensated for, and it essentially completely lacks the biggest one of all (self damage). You have an aim-guide, that's more than I get with a precision weapon like a bow, which has to actually aim for heads.

The biggest downside for the Tonkor is lack of ease of use. The trajectory is not particularly easy to get used to, even/especially when you've spent a good amount of time with other projectile weapons.

When playing with the Tonkor, missing is almost a fact of life. You can't hit 100% of the shots you make in a combat situation, and the Tonkor's ammo economy isn't especially great. The Ogris has guaranteed impact detonation. The Penta can detonate any time you like. If you miss with the Tonkor, you're SoL. This also makes the Tonkor significantly less useful against enemies with defensive measures, since the grenades almost invariably bounce off and do little productive (err, destructive? lol). This means you have to get your projectiles around or behind that barrier... and you only have two shots before you reload.

The aim-guide is necessary for being able to learn the weapon in any reasonable frame of time. Zooming in in a combat situation (barring aimglides) is generally a bad idea. Carefully lining up your shots? Generally will get you killed.

The end result is that you either have to be very practiced with the Tonkor or use it as a shotgun. Using it as a shotgun brings in its own problems, since non-hitscan weapons have serious problems hitting targets that are close to you (without the player adjusting for it by not aiming at the target). This gives you a pretty narrow effective range.

Sure, it's a strong weapon, but it's not as brain-dead as you claim.

Also, I believe I could do it with other weapons, but I was tired at the time and I can't do it again at this point.

22 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

It's less about the cap and more about the mannerisms of generating it in that infinite cycle.

I disagree. It's less the infinite cycle (Anyone can do it with Life Strike. Yes, even Banshee. Against level 135 Corrupted Heavy Gunners.) and more the ability to ignore procs.

IMO the worst part of the fight is the energy denial. Without Hek and his constant magnetic proccing, keeping him from regenning very often or at all is totally doable. Every 'frame that I can think of either has some significant damage boost (to kill him before he has a chance) or the ability to deny him access to food in some way... as long as they have energy. Note here that I was effectively stationary for most of the fight, against level 100 enemies and no real source of DR... and was almost entirely fine because Hek couldn't steal my energy.

28 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

don't favour those frames enough to potato and forma them up.

I literally only potato'd Oberon for the purposes of proving I could do the fight with him. No forma; no time to put any on him.

29 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

You can't expect everyone to subject themselves to abject easymoding by using a Tonkor. Can't stand it myself, noobiest noob tube in the history of noob tubes.

That's fair, but there are other weapons that would be quite capable. Notice that at the end of both fights Hek had no armor. I promise you that the Tonkor had nothing to do with that.

31 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

It's just badly designed if a player can get into a stalemate position like I was in. I couldn't die, but I couldn't win through attrition either because he'd just heal up - and I wasn't close enough to easily clear out the enemy spawns with my weapon choices and for fear of Magnetic death. Meanwhile the player is getting frustrated, due to it being difficult enough to even hit Hek most of the time (again, without using... certain weapons).

Utterly agreed. Hek's movement "patterns" are horrible and should be removed from the game. In addition to that, extremely small vulnerable spot + extremely limited timing + erratic timing is ridiculous and should never have been a thing... especially in a game with networked play and all the issues with that (bad ping etc).