*Sortie third mission now has a chance to be an Assassination mission against a functionally unkillable boss!

[-Temp0-]

14 hours ago, giantconch said:

 

Actually, its Mags rework thats on the way.

 

WE picked a team combination that we knew would work great on completing the task at hand. Like, are you trying to give me grief because of that? Are you angry at me because I didnt run in with crap like a wukong, zephyr, nezha and banshee and get my &#! kicked around 5 times struggling?

Ash's too. Pray that they won't nerf his damage or ability to ignore armor/shields otherwise some sortie missions will become basically unbearable soon.

I'm only telling you that the more you use broken combos and more importantly go on a forum and say "it was ez just use this and that next time gg", the more people are gonna whine and ask to nerf something (Ash in that case, some asking to nerf ev and bless also) simply because they believe you should suffer. Or because they don't want to be bound to use 4 cc or ev+bless just in order to complete trivial sortie for the reward. And when they'll have their way, you will face the same problems as them, in that case will have to actually shoot a bulletsponge boss and pick up teammates from the floor several times during the mission.

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Tonkor

 

The biggest downside for the Tonkor is lack of ease of use. The trajectory is not particularly easy to get used to, even/especially when you've spent a good amount of time with other projectile weapons.

When playing with the Tonkor, missing is almost a fact of life. You can't hit 100% of the shots you make in a combat situation, and the Tonkor's ammo economy isn't especially great. The Ogris has guaranteed impact detonation. The Penta can detonate any time you like. If you miss with the Tonkor, you're SoL. This also makes the Tonkor significantly less useful against enemies with defensive measures, since the grenades almost invariably bounce off and do little productive (err, destructive? lol). This means you have to get your projectiles around or behind that barrier... and you only have two shots before you reload.

The aim-guide is necessary for being able to learn the weapon in any reasonable frame of time. Zooming in in a combat situation (barring aimglides) is generally a bad idea. Carefully lining up your shots? Generally will get you killed.

The end result is that you either have to be very practiced with the Tonkor or use it as a shotgun. Using it as a shotgun brings in its own problems, since non-hitscan weapons have serious problems hitting targets that are close to you (without the player adjusting for it by not aiming at the target). This gives you a pretty narrow effective range.

Sure, it's a strong weapon, but it's not as brain-dead as you claim.

Also, I believe I could do it with other weapons, but I was tired at the time and I can't do it again at this point.

Energy

 

I disagree. It's less the infinite cycle (Anyone can do it with Life Strike. Yes, even Banshee. Against level 135 Corrupted Heavy Gunners.) and more the ability to ignore procs.IMO the worst part of the fight is the energy denial. Without Hek and his constant magnetic proccing, keeping him from regenning very often or at all is totally doable. Every 'frame that I can think of either has some significant damage boost (to kill him before he has a chance) or the ability to deny him access to food in some way... as long as they have energy. Note here that I was effectively stationary for most of the fight, against level 100 enemies and no real source of DR... and was almost entirely fine because Hek couldn't steal my energy.

I literally only potato'd Oberon for the purposes of proving I could do the fight with him. No forma; no time to put any on him.

That's fair, but there are other weapons that would be quite capable. Notice that at the end of both fights Hek had no armor. I promise you that the Tonkor had nothing to do with that.

W/r/t Tonkor:

 

You don't lose the grenades when they miss, giving you a second chance at the damage, and the net result of a hit defeats the downside of a miss. It's so enormously powerful you can safely sacrifice a mod slot to compensate and

still do far and away the most damage with no personal risk - Adhesive Blast makes it Ogris-like with only a slight delay, or Terminal Velocity to give you a better trajectory for hitting at ranges. (Does the aim guide compensate for TV bonus projectile velocity? Never really thought to check.)

Reloading time itself is very par at 2 seconds, and the actual calculated downtime impact in terms of DPS isn't too far away from some others. Compare 33% Tonkor burst->sustained with 38% for a Brakk (with Lethal Torrent increased fire rate). The longer you take to empty a mag, the more you keep DPS, but that doesn't mean much when it comes at the cost of that burst to start with; the Ogris being the perfect example at 0.4 rockets/sec, meaning it keeps 83%.. of a pitiful 210 base dps, where Tonkors shoot 2/sec and keep only 33% of a much more punchy 991 base dps. 175 sustained Ogris, 330 sustained Tonkor, and that's before we explore the damage values from modding (headcrits!)

The only real issue is with bubbled enemies, and the Tonkor isn't exactly alone in that, as we see every time there's a Sniper Only Corpus Sortie. It socs sucks.

If you brave the linked thread, you'll see me going over all of these suppositions of extra difficulty and pointing out how the mechanisms already exist to counteract them.

Anecdotal though it may be, the difficulty of use can't be that burdensome when it fills up at least 25% of an average Sortie (and often even any Void) party... which itself is skewed because I'm always not using it, so it's safer to say it's at least 33% used. A weapon requiring such finesse as alleged would not be used a large proportion of players both 'casual' and 'hardcore'.

W/r/t Energy: As I said, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Without the infinite cycle you wouldn't be able to keep riding Broberon's Magic Carpets to avoid that godawful proc. Without EV, Trinity doesn't keep up Link for proc-resists and QT survivability (or include Blessing for avoiding getting simply worn down through shield breaks).

With only Rage to work with, a Rhino wouldn't be able to maintain his Iron Skin proc immunity (assuming it even works, I vaguely remember Magnetic 'shock' eximi bypassed it or somesuch recently, so.. reliability, please?), for example. My own strategy of simply avoiding it entirely (Ivara bubbles to stay untargeted and at range) led to the problem of being outhealed.

 

And you needed the above energy, health and proc immune cycling to wear away Hek's armour, since you had him so close you would always be at risk. Mentioned the Kogake in the youtube description, I'm guessing that's where your Corrosion procs were mainly coming from? Getting him trapped under the Terra Frame deployment platform so you could punch him was an interesting tactic, but again, without sustainable health and proc immunity you wouldn't have such luxury.

Most of all, the thing to remember is that just because it can be soloed, doesn't mean it's reasonable to do so. Sorties are open for MR4 (which is contentious enough right now), and you just can't have people relying on restores, CP or any specific warframe builds to have a shot at accomplishing it.

I may own every warframe and almost every weapon myself, but I shouldn't be forced into choosing from only a tiny portion of them. Frost excavation sorties are already bad enough. I haven't even acquired Life Strike in my thousands of hours played.

I don't expect my otherwise solid weaponry to be reduced to hitting for pitiful amounts in static content, and I certainly expect to have my status procs functional when they can happen. It's one thing to be immune (Regulator Eximus comes to mind, they're my go-to target dummy in the Simulacrum), it's another entirely to simply ignore procs that are sustained. If Slash damage ticked like it ought to, he wouldn't have lasted five minutes in the partied run (which was still devoid of Corrosive Projections, as it happens) when I actually did bring my stab-bow. Even if his face doesn't count as a head, ticks of over 2000 per second add up fast enough to count.

Edited April 2, 2016 by EDYinnit
autoformatting please stahp. Every time with this.

[--Q--uaint]

9 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Anecdotal though it may be, the difficulty of use can’t be that burdensome when it fills up at least 25% of an average Sortie (and often even any Void) party… which itself is skewed because I'm always not using it, so it’s safer to say it’s at least 33% used. A weapon requiring such finesse as alleged would not be used a large proportion of players both 'casual' and 'hardcore'.

Sorties are definitely more on the side of 'hardcore'. I suppose you do make good points, though.

I would say it'd be fair to give it full self-damage, but then people who use it for its unique mechanics would be upset. I really think nerfing its damage is unreasonable at this point in time, given the ridiculousness of enemy scaling and the like.

I suppose a decent compromise would be: give it full self-damage, but give it an alternate fire for mobility. I think it’d be reasonable for it to consume no ammo, but force a reload to create a knockdown in the full AoE of the normal blast that flings the user skyward.

Another reasonable compromise might be to nerf the level of AoE it has. Make it the precision weapon it demands to be. The Tenno-flinging AoE could stay the same, though.

9 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

I'm guessing that’s where your Corrosion procs were mainly coming from?

Hek does not appear to be affected by Corrosive procs. Tested extensively and ineffectually.

10 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

With only Rage to work with, a Rhino wouldn’t be able to maintain his Iron Skin proc immunity

Sure, but ES+EO would most likely allow him to maintain his Iron Skin if he’s careful, and the augment would allow him to refresh on his terms so he doesn’t have awkward moments of vulnerability.

9 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

My own strategy of simply avoiding it entirely (Ivara bubbles to stay untargeted and at range) led to the problem of being outhealed.

Loki’s invisibility is superior. With a maxed Energy Overflow and the right build, you even get energy-positive in energy reduction missions.

9 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

I may own every warframe and almost every weapon myself, but I shouldn’t be forced into choosing from only a tiny portion of them.

Agreed.

10 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Most of all, the thing to remember is that just because it can be soloed, doesn’t mean it’s reasonable to do so. Sorties are open for MR4 (which is contentious enough right now), and you just can’t have people relying on restores, CP or any specific warframe builds to have a shot at accomplishing it.

This was mostly a joke post… It got a little out of hand, but then so did the QQ-ing.

I think you're actually somewhat wrong on this point, though. The Sorties are supposed to be a gear and skill check for a largely variety-based game. They're implementing that by punishing you for not having the correct gear. I think this sortie may have gone a little too far in that regard, but the principle is fine IMO.

I don’t like restores as a game mechanic, but it stands to reason that they're a reasonable way for a player to bridge the gap between their gear and what’s required.

If an MR4 has the gumption and the gear to take on those enemies, I think he should be able to do it. Honestly, I think the gate should be MR 6–8… but only exist for running on Public. This would allow you to run with premade groups at whatever MR you like, but you only get to go public if you're determined to be “qualified.”

10 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Getting him trapped under the Terra Frame deployment platform so you could punch him was an interesting tactic

It legitimately happened by chance. I just took advantage of it.

10 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

I haven’t even acquired Life Strike in my thousands of hours played.

Have you been doing Dark Sector Survivals? It’s not really that rare.

10 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

I don’t expect my otherwise solid weaponry to be reduced to hitting for pitiful amounts in static content, and I certainly expect to have my status procs functional when they can happen.

Utterly agreed.

10 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

If Slash damage ticked like it ought to

I'm pretty sure the reason is that proc damage targets the main body. Hek’s is invincible.

[TychusMechanicus]

Heh... Read through this thread...

There are definitely some impossible combinations for certain bosses and sortie limitations, however, Vay Hek this time was very well within doable limits. This was really the case of "git gud"...

1. Grab a gun that you can hit accurately with and maxed it out already. I used my Vaykor Hek. Fitting punishment for Hek, right? :D
2. Learn the mechanics of Vay Hek: he drains health from allies. Kill the highlighted enemies and you don't see him heal back up. We pretty much prevented him from doing that and just kited him when he was invulnerable.
3. Get a group that knows all his mechanics. You don't want to carry 3 clueless players when all they do is increase Vay Hek's pool of drainable allies. If you get a PUG then tell them what to do.
4. ???
5. PROFIT

Mind you me and my friend used our Vay Heks, he was a Loki with a freshly formad kubrow so I needed to revive them a lot, and I used Inaros so I would be tanky and need little energy only. Took us about 10 minutes to go through him mostly because we needed to wait out the invulnerability phases. Was a nice bit of work but very far from impossible.

However, I do feel there could be one specific very bad combination for assasinations:

Melee only for Vay Hek, Raptor and Lephantis? Yeah, that is indeed unsolvable.

Though there are other not so good ones too: bow only/sniper only would be comfortable...

And I shudder at the thought of fighting Lech Kril anyway. Not because he is a hard boss to beat but beacause he is a huge pain in the &#! with being invulnerable 99% of the time and only taking capped amounts of damage on a specific attack for the better half of the fight. God forbid someone keeps stunning him or uses a slow nova... That will be the most boring bossfight to last an hour in this game.

I just hope they actually did add limitations on what boss/restriction combinations cannot appear in sorties to prevent impossible missions.

One final note: Sorties do need specific set ups. This is why they were aimed at "veteran" players. You need a large pool of maxed gear to be able to pick from the blast through these. By design. So yes, sorties are the type of content that does require you to gear up for the missions appropriately.

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Sorties are definitely more on the side of 'hardcore'. I suppose you do make good points, though.

I would say it'd be fair to give it full self-damage, but then people who use it for its unique mechanics would be upset. I really think nerfing its damage is unreasonable at this point in time, given the ridiculousness of enemy scaling and the like.

I suppose a decent compromise would be: give it full self-damage, but give it an alternate fire for mobility. I think it’d be reasonable for it to consume no ammo, but force a reload to create a knockdown in the full AoE of the normal blast that flings the user skyward.

Another reasonable compromise might be to nerf the level of AoE it has. Make it the precision weapon it demands to be. The Tenno-flinging AoE could stay the same, though.

Wasn't just referring to Sorties; I still see it relatively commonly in Tower 2 Void missions, hardly the epitome of difficult content.

Let's be fair with its "unique mechanics", they were relevant for three months. Then Parkour 2.0 happened, and bullet jump obsoleted it entirely, because everyone has access to whatever vector of motion they please instead of being largely tied to the presence of scalable walls. I wouldn't be against giving a (non-damaging offensively or personally) alt fire, but really.. every single other source of explosive ordnance has scaling/proportional self-damage, even the ones that come from mods. At this point, 'grenade jumps' are just an excuse for the current lack of risk, and not a particularly strong one.

3 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Hek does not appear to be affected by Corrosive procs. Tested extensively and ineffectually.

Didn't you say yourself (and from what I could see in 240p, I thought I saw red health bars) that you wore off all of Hek's armour? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I thought the only way to achieve that was Corrosive procs, given Oberon doesn't have armour shredding augments/abilities as far as I recall, and your soloing obviously precludes 4CP.

3 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Sure, but ES+EO would most likely allow him to maintain his Iron Skin if he’s careful, and the augment would allow him to refresh on his terms so he doesn’t have awkward moments of vulnerability.

Most likely, but.. Well, it was just an attempted example of where the closer alternatives still had at least more potential pitfalls.

Ultimately, this isn't a case of the Bursas where there is a way for 90% of Warframes to have reasonably fought them from abilities alone, and several other mechanisms (especially procs, doubly especially bullet jump elementals barring Toxin) that can provide reliable staggers and CC to allow hitting the weakspot very reliably.

Proc immunity is a lot rarer, and.. due to Magnetic's particulars, even Rapid Resilience wouldn't help much in the end.

3 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Loki’s invisibility is superior. With a maxed Energy Overflow and the right build, you even get energy-positive in energy reduction missions.

I just like Ivara. Before CC got shafted, she was actually excellent for Hek (and most bosses, really), kept him actually steady without luckily getting him trapped on the side of the arena. Alas, straight damage is allowed to trivialise things but frames that rely on their controlling aspects get broken utterly. I tried sleeping Hek and he just carried on flying around, magnetising and all, despite being asleep (and wreathed in my energy colour accordingly). Upcoming augments hype, even though my build is already tight for space...

3 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I think you're actually somewhat wrong on this point, though. The Sorties are supposed to be a gear and skill check for a largely variety-based game. They're implementing that by punishing you for not having the correct gear. I think this sortie may have gone a little too far in that regard, but the principle is fine IMO.

I don’t like restores as a game mechanic, but it stands to reason that they're a reasonable way for a player to bridge the gap between their gear and what’s required.

If an MR4 has the gumption and the gear to take on those enemies, I think he should be able to do it. Honestly, I think the gate should be MR 6–8… but only exist for running on Public. This would allow you to run with premade groups at whatever MR you like, but you only get to go public if you're determined to be “qualified.”

Well, you may misunderstand. I don't expect to contest it with a Braton and an unmodded warframe, but I do expect to have a reasonable chance with honed warframes and high-grade weapons without it being mandatory to find a superior cheese tactic (or spam restores) to succeed at all (as opposed to it just being easier) because the enemies are using their cheese tactics.

Most Sortie missions fall under the 'easier if cheesed' category. Sortie 3s with damage+defensive enhancements are on the fence, as are Interceptions because of how easy it is to be overwhelmed into an impossible-to-recapture situation. Interceptions with enhancements are awful no matter what.

_{I've been commented against for having little use for the million-and-a-half Nano Spores because I don't tend to throw down restores and Spectres in every mission I run. I see it as a crutch to be avoided as much as possible, and an abjet failing if I have to throw down more than a couple in a given mission unless it's something at least as strenuous as the April Fools' GFTL survival.}

3 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Have you been doing Dark Sector Survivals? It’s not really that rare.

I don't really have much call for Dark Sectors. I gave up Focus capping before I even started (no, Draco, go away), credits are never a problem, and I've built pretty much everything so neither are resources. More reasons to spend my time in the Void to prepare myself for Baro's next offerings... or keep grinding Caelus for those last damned Archweapon parts that never want to drop. _{Besides, my builds are too tight, I have no spare slots for it.}

3 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I'm pretty sure the reason is that proc damage targets the main body. Hek’s is invincible.

Considering I sliced him in the face with my arrows, this is pretty obviously something that should really be looked at. Hitting a vulnerable point should apply DoTs to a vulnerable point. I don't care what coding shenanigans would need to be put in place to sort out actual weakspot modifiers not double-dipping on hits that then cause DoT status procs, it's inexcusable to allow them to just be 'lolnoped' like that.

15 minutes ago, TychusMechanicus said:

There are definitely some impossible combinations for certain bosses and sortie limitations, however, Vay Hek this time was very well within doable limits. This was really the case of "git gud"...

1. Grab a gun that you can hit accurately with and maxed it out already. I used my Vaykor Hek. Fitting punishment for Hek, right? :D
2. Learn the mechanics of Vay Hek: he drains health from allies. Kill the highlighted enemies and you don't see him heal back up. We pretty much prevented him from doing that and just kited him when he was invulnerable.
3. Get a group that knows all his mechanics. You don't want to carry 3 clueless players when all they do is increase Vay Hek's pool of drainable allies. If you get a PUG then tell them what to do.
4. ???
5. PROFIT

Mind you me and my friend used our Vay Heks, he was a Loki with a freshly formad kubrow so I needed to revive them a lot, and I used Inaros so I would be tanky and need little energy only. Took us about 10 minutes to go through him mostly because we needed to wait out the invulnerability phases. Was a nice bit of work but very far from impossible.

The V.Hek [shotgun] is probably tied for third strongest with its sister boomstick the S.Tigris, behind the SySim and King Tonkor.

That aside, I used a maxed weapon (two different ones, in fact, both accurate precision weapons). They usually have no issues with beefy foes, but apparently Vay Hek has 500 times the armour and 5000 times the health in comparison, for all the good it did. Both being sniper-class weaponry meant that I had to make each shot count, and.. well, that is difficult between proc ignorance and having to waste ammo killing other units, eventually running out while he tags something that runs out of my LOS, meaning I have to go in and get Magnetised (and die) or he gets free health. Lose-lose.

 

I added the caveat of "at least unless partied", and you yourself had two people to ease the load, one could hit Hek while the other dealt with potential heal targets.

Now, it's not impossible solo (as proven earlier), but consider the burden of attention that is levied upon a player - avoiding procs, avoiding damage, having to aim at an erratic, small hitbox as they try to wear down Hek with outrageously weakened weapons and objectively broken status proccing (and not in the good way). Then add in clearing out other Grineer - it just wasn't balanced for. In the Raid there is no healing, flying annoyance stage, it's straight to Terra Frame with extra mechanics and four people to execute them.

 

Being completable does not mean it's okay. Someone has to address design issues like this for the sake of people that don't have access to all the tools in the game. I wouldn't mind so much if it came with bonus rewards, because let's face it, almost any boss amped up in level and augmented is magnitudes more problematic to deal with than your average Sortie mission. Except maybe The Sergeant, but he hasn't led any Sorties that I remember, forever the placeholder even though he's no longer identified as Nef...

Come to think of it, Nef interestingly does lead sorties. Level 100 Razorback warning!

[EvilChaosKnight]

2 hours ago, TychusMechanicus said:

Heh... Read through this thread...

There are definitely some impossible combinations for certain bosses and sortie limitations, however, Vay Hek this time was very well within doable limits. This was really the case of "git gud" //anti-fun police...

1. Grab a gun that you can hit accurately with and maxed it out already. I used my Vaykor Hek. Fitting punishment for Hek, right? :D  //So Opticor or Bolotor Pr are not sortie material even though they have high puncture and high base DMG? Since neither performed well really. Corrosive 5-forma Staticor did jack sh... Hek is also immune to procs. GG.
2. Learn the mechanics of Vay Hek: he drains health from allies. Kill the highlighted enemies and you don't see him heal back up. We pretty much prevented him from doing that and just kited him when he was invulnerable. //Too bad it takes less than a second, he can feed through walls, and highlights aren't even visible at night. Oh and sometimes mooks just spawn on Hek himself for free food. Oh and he can feed on thin air also sometimes.
3. Get a group that knows all his mechanics. You don't want to carry 3 clueless players when all they do is increase Vay Hek's pool of drainable allies. If you get a PUG then tell them what to do. //A friend of mine and I knew what we were doing, still took a ton of time. Prob. longer than Def/Surv mission in fact and certainly was even less fun than that.
4. ???
5. PROFIT \\Uniaru lens get. Several of my clannies got that.

[TychusMechanicus]

3 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

The V.Hek [shotgun] is probably tied for third strongest with its sister boomstick the S.Tigris, behind the SySim and King Tonkor.

That aside, I used a maxed weapon (two different ones, in fact, both accurate precision weapons). They usually have no issues with beefy foes, but apparently Vay Hek has 500 times the armour and 5000 times the health in comparison, for all the good it did. Both being sniper-class weaponry meant that I had to make each shot count, and.. well, that is difficult between proc ignorance and having to waste ammo killing other units, eventually running out while he tags something that runs out of my LOS, meaning I have to go in and get Magnetised (and die) or he gets free health. Lose-lose.

 

I added the caveat of "at least unless partied", and you yourself had two people to ease the load, one could hit Hek while the other dealt with potential heal targets.

Now, it's not impossible solo (as proven earlier), but consider the burden of attention that is levied upon a player - avoiding procs, avoiding damage, having to aim at an erratic, small hitbox as they try to wear down Hek with outrageously weakened weapons and objectively broken status proccing (and not in the good way). Then add in clearing out other Grineer - it just wasn't balanced for. In the Raid there is no healing, flying annoyance stage, it's straight to Terra Frame with extra mechanics and four people to execute them.

I said that I used that. I know how powerfuk that VHek is.

We did the mission just the two of us and I ended up carrying my friend and minding the mobs most of the time as Hek decided to pay attention to my friend covering his face from me.

I'm not saying it is easy, but as a third mission for a sortie I think the difficulty was justified. All I am saying is that that round was nowhere near as impossibly hard as some of you point it out to be.

1 hour ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

3 hours ago, TychusMechanicus said:

Heh... Read through this thread...

There are definitely some impossible combinations for certain bosses and sortie limitations, however, Vay Hek this time was very well within doable limits. This was really the case of "git gud" //anti-fun police...

1. Grab a gun that you can hit accurately with and maxed it out already. I used my Vaykor Hek. Fitting punishment for Hek, right? :D  //So Opticor or Bolotor Pr are not sortie material even though they have high puncture and high base DMG? Since neither performed well really. Corrosive 5-forma Staticor did jack sh... Hek is also immune to procs. GG.
2. Learn the mechanics of Vay Hek: he drains health from allies. Kill the highlighted enemies and you don't see him heal back up. We pretty much prevented him from doing that and just kited him when he was invulnerable. //Too bad it takes less than a second, he can feed through walls, and highlights aren't even visible at night. Oh and sometimes mooks just spawn on Hek himself for free food. Oh and he can feed on thin air also sometimes.
3. Get a group that knows all his mechanics. You don't want to carry 3 clueless players when all they do is increase Vay Hek's pool of drainable allies. If you get a PUG then tell them what to do. //A friend of mine and I knew what we were doing, still took a ton of time. Prob. longer than Def/Surv mission in fact and certainly was even less fun than that.
4. ???
5. PROFIT \\Uniaru lens get. Several of my clannies got that.

1. Boltor P and Opticor are good, not great. Again, as above, I only said I used the Hek. I like my Hek. I would've used Soma P or a bow too if I felt like it. Tonkor is hard mode with Vay Hek's small weakspots.
2. Yeah, true, Hek has wonky behaviour.
3. Your results may vary. If Vay Hek didn't focus my friend so much he would've died sooner. Most of the time I had to chase my friend to hit his weakspots. Actual play greatly defines your results.
4. ???
5. I got a Nezha helmet. Unairu lens the next time. Neither is the Snipetron Vandal I want. Reward is RNG but still is a reward even if you hate it.

[--Q--uaint]

2 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

At this point, 'grenade jumps' are just an excuse for the current lack of risk, and not a particularly strong one.

Pfft. It’s fun, and can hit you in midair if you're good enough. The variety and the extra bonus for skill both give it a leg up on standard parkour. Also, it looks less $&*&*#(%& than bunnyhopping across a wall, IMO.

2 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Didn’t you say yourself (and from what I could see in 240p, I thought I saw red health bars) that you wore off all of Hek’s armour? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I thought the only way to achieve that was Corrosive procs,

I did.

Corrosive procs are not. Heard of Shattering Impact? Lame mod… usually.

2 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Proc immunity is a lot rarer

Yep. I think Trinity and Oberon are the only ones that don’t have it tied to an external HP pool.

2 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

I tried sleeping Hek and he just carried on flying around, magnetising and all, despite being asleep (and wreathed in my energy colour accordingly).

A wise man once said: "OMGWTFBBQ"

2 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Alas, straight damage is allowed to trivialise things but frames that rely on their controlling aspects get broken utterly.

Rhino would like to have a chat with you about his Stomp.

2 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Well, you may misunderstand. I don’t expect to contest it with a Braton and an unmodded warframe, but I do expect to have a reasonable chance with honed warframes and high-grade weapons without it being mandatory to find a superior cheese tactic (or spam restores) to succeed at all (as opposed to it just being easier) because the enemies are using their cheese tactics.

What do you consider “honed” and "high-grade“?
I don’t know how you would define a “honed“ category. Is that a certain threshold of forma or something? Because that’s a bass-ackwards way of quantifying it and it’s the closest thing I can think of for something objective. My Volt Prime has 5 forma, but I wouldn’t call him ”good" in the same sentence as I applied that term to my Trinity Prime with only 2 or 3. (She’s got 4 now, but that’s because I have lulz builds and too many forma)
At this point, the weapons I use generally go into either or both of the categories “brokenly OP” and “lulz”, so I don’t think I have an understanding of ”high grade”.

Superior cheese tactics is all Warframe is in high-level play. Just look at the LoR. If that’s not bad enough, the NM version has instant core death regardless of health as a mechanic on two separate mechanisms to ruin your day.

Spamming restores is a cheese tactic, just more expensive than most in the long run.

3 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

I've been commented against for having little use for the million-and-a-half Nano Spores because I don’t tend to throw down restores and Spectres in every mission I run. I see it as a crutch to be avoided as much as possible, and an abjet failing if I have to throw down more than a couple in a given mission unless it’s something at least as strenuous as the April Fools' GFTL survival.

I agree with this entirely. Well, aside from the spelling of “abjet” The real question is why I have more than a thousand large energy restores. And I really don’t have a good answer.

3 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

I don’t really have much call for Dark Sectors. I gave up Focus capping before I even started (no, Draco, go away), credits are never a problem, and I've built pretty much everything so neither are resources. More reasons to spend my time in the Void to prepare myself for Baro’s next offerings… or keep grinding Caelus for those last damned Archweapon parts that never want to drop. _{Besides, my builds are too tight, I have no spare slots for it.}

Clearly you do, if you want Life Strike.

I don’t normally focus-farm, though that’s mostly because I've got all the stuff I actually care about enough to get already.

Dark Sectors grant void keys, if you don’t have a bunch already. Which you probably do. *shrug*

The Archwing weapon grind is infinitely worse than the Focus grind.

Sure, Life Strike sacrifices a critical mod slot on something that’s not DPS… but it’s the difference between winning and dying pathetically if you're fighting 20 level 135 Heavy Gunners with melee only using Saryn (and no Shadow Step cheese, ofc).

3 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Considering I sliced him in the face with my arrows, this is pretty obviously something that should really be looked at. Hitting a vulnerable point should apply DoTs to a vulnerable point. I don’t care what coding shenanigans would need to be put in place to sort out actual weakspot modifiers not double-dipping on hits that then cause DoT status procs, it’s inexcusable to allow them to just be 'lolnoped' like that.

I agree. I didn’t say it made sense or was good, I said that’s what I think happened :P

I also think it’s ridiculous that you can make someone bleed through their shields. DE don’t care.

3 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

it just wasn’t balanced for.

inb4 this was DE’s true plan all along and they think people whining on the forums are funny.

3 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

almost any boss amped up in level and augmented is magnitudes more problematic to deal with than your average Sortie mission.

Ambulas is cute. Almost none of them have any real defense against a bored Invis Loki who wants to make them suffer. Let alone a focused, determined one who wants to kill them quickly.

3 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Level 100 Razorback warning!

As long as the Bursas aren’t level 100, I'm chill with that. If they're not, I'm taking Loki and no one will ever see me for long enough to react.

[TheLexiConArtist]

41 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Pfft. It’s fun, and can hit you in midair if you're good enough. The variety and the extra bonus for skill both give it a leg up on standard parkour. Also, it looks less $&*&*#(%& than bunnyhopping across a wall, IMO.

Tastes differ. But like I said, I don't ultimately mind the function - just what it entails in throwing the risk/reward completely off.

41 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I did.

Corrosive procs are not. Heard of Shattering Impact? Lame mod… usually.

I forget that exists. How many punch-procs it must take to wear down that much armour 6 at a time frankly terrifies me.

_{Still doesn't explain why that proc-based effect works but Corrosive doesn't, but isn't that just Warframe in a nutshell?}

41 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Rhino would like to have a chat with you about his Stomp.

Stomp-stasis been a special-case for a long time, but I think it finally got its diminishment or flat-out removal of effect against bosses alongside all the other CCs recently, didn't it? Not that Rhino has to rely on control in the same way frames like Banshee do. He's a beefy enough frame without. The bigger picture is how Exalted weapons (besides Artemis Bow and its completely unfriendly spread) and things like Bladestorm tend to cut through bosses just as easily as regular enemies, while the concept of victory through control just gets diminished to irrelevance.. if it even works at all (as I mentioned with Hek's sleep-fighting).

41 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

What do you consider “honed” and "high-grade“?

I don’t know how you would define a “honed“ category. Is that a certain threshold of forma or something? Because that’s a bass-ackwards way of quantifying it and it’s the closest thing I can think of for something objective. My Volt Prime has 5 forma, but I wouldn’t call him ”good" in the same sentence as I applied that term to my Trinity Prime with only 2 or 3. (She’s got 4 now, but that’s because I have lulz builds and too many forma)
At this point, the weapons I use generally go into either or both of the categories “brokenly OP” and “lulz”, so I don’t think I have an understanding of ”high grade”.

It's anecdotal, for obvious reasons, but if I can take it into other Sortie 3 missions and have a solid function and survivability I'd consider the build as honed enough; it shouldn't be completely rendered useless because of mission type alone, static content considering.

High grade weapons (again, not objectively defined) but the old crowd of top-end weapons; your well-built Paris Primes and Dreads, your upper echelons of Clantech, Somas and Boltor Primes.. All should be considerable as high-end weapons, but completely crowded out by power creeping risk-free AOE and to a lesser extent, syndicate shotguns. _{I'd be a lot less salty about the latter if my Brakk got put back to how it was before the nerf because it overshadowed the old primary shotguns...}

Balancing the new 'endgame' content for the over-crept power level of most Syndicate primaries and the big T just makes everything else so irrelevant despite statistical superiority amongst them. It doesn't matter if one turd has one piece of corn in it, and another has three. They're still just turds.

41 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I agree with this entirely. Well, aside from the spelling of “abjet” The real question is why I have more than a thousand large energy restores. And I really don’t have a good answer.

goddamnit. I'm usually better at picking out spelling mistakes before I throw the post out, I swear.

41 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Clearly you do, if you want Life Strike.

I don’t normally focus-farm, though that’s mostly because I've got all the stuff I actually care about enough to get already.

Dark Sectors grant void keys, if you don’t have a bunch already. Which you probably do. *shrug*

The Archwing weapon grind is infinitely worse than the Focus grind.

Sure, Life Strike sacrifices a critical mod slot on something that’s not DPS… but it’s the difference between winning and dying pathetically if you're fighting 20 level 135 Heavy Gunners with melee only using Saryn (and no Shadow Step cheese, ofc).

Well, I don't particularly want it since I don't have room for it and I've made do without it for this long. But people continue to use it as a reason why things are fine whenever health gets involved. Ridiculous toxic Mutalist Osprey ticks? Life strike. Bleed for days in Thousand Cuts? Life strike. Rage getting you down? Life strike. There's a line between "nice to have" and "mandatory solution to core problems", and from my observance it seems like Life Strike is dangerously close to overstepping.

_{I have enough Void keys to be getting on with, since I've been up and down through all the Syndicates to have every mod, sigil and equipment piece, there's nothing more to spend Standing on than packs... It's a steady flow.}

_{Archwing is tedious.. but thrills! I got my Fluctus stock, finally. Now just the Centaur blade and... and... then I get to move to Salacia for the Defense-reward weapon parts. Yay.}

41 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

As long as the Bursas aren’t level 100, I'm chill with that. If they're not, I'm taking Loki and no one will ever see me for long enough to react.

I mainly find myself concerned that CC diminishment was added since then, and I won't be able to make nearly as much use of that sweet Sleeping stealth-melee-multiplier with my baby Ivara. Stealth does make it supremely manageable, though there's something fundamentally wrong when adding another player makes it less easy to kill... Unless they're also stealthed, they coax those almost invisible super-homing F*** You rockets out, and those do not care how invisible you are.

[BlackCoMerc]

So the already poorly designed, tedious and pointless sortie system got worse. This is full on "throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks" development and I honestly think its time to step back and actually ask yourself what you want Warframe to be. 

Skill based shooter with support abilities? Gear based ARPG with guns? Come up with a solid, core direction for the game, cause right now it honestly feels like development is all over the place. Sorties are terrible experiences, full of bullet sponges and tedium. And now its gotten worse...

[GrimAtrament]

On 3/31/2016 at 11:21 AM, WolfTitan said:

I spent 15 minutes using Boltor Prime on today's boss (Vay Hek) and only got his heath down by only 5%. I would imagine that soloing this boss would use up tremendous ammo/health refills and take a few hours to kill.

I'm against Level 100 bosses.

hmm i think i can see the problem 

you have to have a team for the boss i beat it by having one person kill the girneer so he could not heal  and then we used the highest damaging weapons with crit and status.  dps does nothing to him without something else to back it up like crit or status chance or  extremely high damage like the opticor we used the kohm to shread his armor and hp away 

Edited April 2, 2016 by hazerddex

[Igrithys]

Honestly I had a lot of fun with level 100 Vay Hek. He actually lived long enough for me to learn that he can heal by eating smaller Grineer. But yeah, the first time I did it I was in a duo and we just didn't have enough damage to overcome that healing. So we brainstormed for a little bit and decided what we should go with, burst damage. So I rigged up a power strength Ivara, whipped out the Artemis Bow and killed his second form in about 10 seconds.

All in all, I'd like to see more level 100 assassinate missions.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Igrithys

[--Q--uaint]

11 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

I forget that exists. How many punch-procs it must take to wear down that much armour 6 at a time frankly terrifies me.

It’s base armor. The number of punches does not vary with level. It’s still a lot, but quite achievable.

It’s actually pretty hilarious how fast my Kogake strip the armor of Butchers at any level. It’s depressing how long it takes to kill them, though.

11 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Still doesn’t explain why that proc-based effect works but Corrosive doesn’t, but isn’t that just Warframe in a nutshell?

Yes, yes it is.

11 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

The bigger picture is how Exalted weapons (besides Artemis Bow and its completely unfriendly spread) and things like Bladestorm tend to cut through bosses just as easily as regular enemies, while the concept of victory through control just gets diminished to irrelevance.. if it even works at all (as I mentioned with Hek’s sleep-fighting).

I think you have a valid point here… but if you could just CC a boss, he couldn’t fight back at all. CC is pretty binary, while bosses are meant to resist high damage output.

11 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Balancing the new 'endgame' content for the over-crept power level of most Syndicate primaries and the big T just makes everything else so irrelevant despite statistical superiority amongst them. It doesn’t matter if one turd has one piece of corn in it, and another has three. They're still just turds.

Balance? There’s no balance here.

11 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

But people continue to use it as a reason why things are fine whenever health gets involved. Ridiculous toxic Mutalist Osprey ticks? Life strike. Bleed for days in Thousand Cuts? Life strike. Rage getting you down? Life strike. There’s a line between “nice to have” and “mandatory solution to core problems”, and from my observance it seems like Life Strike is dangerously close to overstepping.

It already has overstepped. Honestly, it overstepped the day Damage 2.0 came out due to the Grineer and their ridiculous slash-proc spam.

11 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

there’s something fundamentally wrong when adding another player makes it less easy to kill…

Also Warframe in a nutshell, except when the addition of another player trivializes it further.

Both of those “Warframe in a nutshell” things only really apply at high-level stuff, since the game is actually pretty decent until around mid-game… _{And people wonder why I made alt accounts}

11 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

then I get to move to Salacia for the Defense-reward weapon parts.

The only Archwing weapons I don’t have came out with Defense, and there’s a reason for that.
I had to run untold numbers of Ext/Sab for the Dual Decurions, but that grind is nothing compared to Defense.

^{And this game is supposed to be played for fun? Come on, DE. Make it less obvious that you want us to buy stuff instead of farming it.}

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

It’s base armor. The number of punches does not vary with level. It’s still a lot, but quite achievable.

It’s actually pretty hilarious how fast my Kogake strip the armor of Butchers at any level. It’s depressing how long it takes to kill them, though.

Well, that's.. inadequately explained, then. Much like how Berserker stacks its attack speed instead of just refreshing it, which you have no way of knowing without using (and observing).. or the wiki.

Impact is finally good for something, at least.

4 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I think you have a valid point here… but if you could just CC a boss, he couldn’t fight back at all. CC is pretty binary, while bosses are meant to resist high damage output.

As the Tonkor users consistently prove, bosses still do a poor job of resisting outright damage, invulnerability zones/periods notwithstanding. I'm no creative lead designer but I can still see a problem with having survivability-through-control then just putting "well, control doesn't work any more" into effect.

Being fair, they tried in some places, like Frost's complete freeze effects still afflicting with cold status/slowing. Just didn't properly extrapolate that in other places it was necessary. My Ivara's sleep arrows are my main source of offense and defense, control the enemy while I use the melee multiplier to deal heavy damage (or kill outright, Covert Lethality style). When that doesn't actually do anything (or lasts for 1.8 seconds instead of 18.3), it just utterly shafts the entire build I went for, which doesn't exactly make me feel good when it was perfectly functional before.

I'm not going to lie, I was concerned when I read those changes, thinking Bursas might actually become a challenge because they wouldn't just be Slept and Stabbed with absolutely no worry.. luckily, not the case, they didn't inherit the diminished effect and return.

4 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

It already has overstepped. Honestly, it overstepped the day Damage 2.0 came out due to the Grineer and their ridiculous slash-proc spam.

I was giving the benefit of the doubt by saying it was only threatening to overstep. If health orbs weren't so hard to come by, without certain warframes, it wouldn't be quite so much of a problem, I think... Never understood why they didn't also drop from enemies in general, as energy orbs do.

4 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

The only Archwing weapons I don’t have came out with Defense, and there’s a reason for that.

I had to run untold numbers of Ext/Sab for the Dual Decurions, but that grind is nothing compared to Defense.

^{And this game is supposed to be played for fun? Come on, DE. Make it less obvious that you want us to buy stuff instead of farming it.}

I feel you on the Dual Decs. Grind forever, get the most unwieldy, borderline unusable arch-gun for mastery purposes. Such fun.

At least with Defense you can get double chances per run, though. The enemies aren't quite as cheap, either. _{Shield-Hellion Dargyns are the worst. Let's make a unit immune to damage from the front, turn too fast to get behind, and unmeleeable because the shield dow constact damage on every strike, while its rockets stun you in place constantly! YES.}

 

[--Q--uaint]

4 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Impact is finally good for something, at least.

lol? You just have to have any Impact at all. There’s like maybe 5 melees with physical damage that don’t have at least a little.

5 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

As the Tonkor users consistently prove, bosses still do a poor job of resisting outright damage, invulnerability zones/periods notwithstanding.

And Excalibur users and Valkyr users and Ivara users and Banshee users and Sancti Tigris users…

6 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

When that doesn’t actually do anything (or lasts for 1.8 seconds instead of 18.3), it just utterly shafts the entire build I went for, which doesn’t exactly make me feel good when it was perfectly functional before.

What should it do, then? Letting you put the boss to sleep for any real amount of time trivializes the fight entirely. I suppose it could act as a slow or make them attack less, but that’s not what the ability does.

8 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

If health orbs weren’t so hard to come by, without certain warframes, it wouldn’t be quite so much of a problem, I think… Never understood why they didn’t also drop from enemies in general, as energy orbs do.

Really, they should just swap where energy and health orbs drop from normally and give us base energy regen. They already kinda did that for Archwing…

10 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

At least with Defense you can get double chances per run, though. The enemies aren’t quite as cheap, either. _{Shield-Hellion Dargyns are the worst. Let’s make a unit immune to damage from the front, turn too fast to get behind, and unmeleeable because the shield dow constact damage on every strike, while its rockets stun you in place constantly! YES.}

Defense also takes almost as much time as a whole run of Sabotage for each wave, and takes 5 to get each drop.

Shielded Grineer enemies in Archwing are really not cool. Shield Lancers have the same mechanic, but they always have vulnerable spots and punchthrough can be added to any weapon. Those things do NOT hold for the Archwing enemies.
Not sure, but I think the Fluctus might trivialize them. Haven’t tested and don’t really care to atm XP

[Inmemoratus]

I brought Inaros, revived my allies whenever they went down, shot the boss a lot, and eventually he died.

Definitely a stupid fight, but not actually difficult if you have the right frame. Just time consuming and boring.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Inmemoratus

[TheLexiConArtist]

9 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

lol? You just have to have any Impact at all. There’s like maybe 5 melees with physical damage that don’t have at least a little.

I was under the impression (purely from reading the mod card) that it would be based on triggering Impact procs. Having 'just a little' makes that rather unlikely, but still; it does give some relevancy to the otherwise worst physical damage type.

9 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

And Excalibur users and Valkyr users and Ivara users and Banshee users and Sancti Tigris users…

What should it do, then? Letting you put the boss to sleep for any real amount of time trivializes the fight entirely. I suppose it could act as a slow or make them attack less, but that’s not what the ability does.

I might slightly be biased on the Ivara front, but modding for Artemis to match up to what EB and Hysteria can put out does rather tank her other abilities (plus the per-shot issue, and spread). I'm an Ivara that builds for everything but Artemis.

I'm for diversity, and it just stands to no reason that Strongest Individual Enemies suffer less from supportive/debilitating powers than just straight damage, to my mind.

Hard control is perhaps out of the question, but.. I don't know. Can't really say myself, but surely there's a middle-ground between trivialisation and tantamount uselessness.

9 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Really, they should just swap where energy and health orbs drop from normally and give us base energy regen. They already kinda did that for Archwing…

I'd be on board with that, except for the forced downtime issues with drain abilities and destrategising effect of not being able to 'bank' energy in ungrabbed energy orbs any more.

Having a base energy regen separate from any changes to orbs they might make though, that should've been the case from the start. Warframes are defined by powers after all, not being able to access them as a new player very often.. that detracts from the experience.

10 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Defense also takes almost as much time as a whole run of Sabotage for each wave, and takes 5 to get each drop.

Shielded Grineer enemies in Archwing are really not cool. Shield Lancers have the same mechanic, but they always have vulnerable spots and punchthrough can be added to any weapon. Those things do NOT hold for the Archwing enemies.
Not sure, but I think the Fluctus might trivialize them. Haven’t tested and don’t really care to atm XP

Well, yeah. Same goes for normal game though, really. I was only really comparing it to Archwing Interception. Maybe it takes longer, but at least you get twice the drop and don't have to deal with buggy "guidelines" that usually fail to show you where the unit capping a point actually is (hint - it's probably 2000m away from the point it's capturing, because logic)

Fluctus does trivialise Shielded Grineer, but I distinctly remember the shield not having contact damage and not being 100% immunity in the past. Getting either of those back would cut a lot off that particular frustration value. I don't mind having to melee to kill them if they're focused on me, but don't punish me for doing that as well.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Today we had another Assassination Sortie, and another complete tedium of a fight.

At least this one was reasonably contestable without risk of stalemate, but it's pretty much exactly as bad as I expected since I started this thread - having to pump in 60 Dread arrows to Kela's head, including a lot of Slash damage ticks to drain her obscene health value down.

 

Plus, as per usual with 'enhancement' Sortie 3s, a single Seeker shot was enough to oneshot me, or a single wayward Scorpion swing when I irradiated Kela that caught where I was stealthed.

Such fun, being oneshot even by the grunt enemies, isn't it? Seems totally healthy. Sarcasm.

[IceColdHawk]

Just now, EDYinnit said:

Today we had another Assassination Sortie, and another complete tedium of a fight.

At least this one was reasonably contestable without risk of stalemate, but it's pretty much exactly as bad as I expected since I started this thread - having to pump in 60 Dread arrows to Kela's head, including a lot of Slash damage ticks to drain her obscene health value down.

 

Plus, as per usual with 'enhancement' Sortie 3s, a single Seeker shot was enough to oneshot me, or a single wayward Scorpion swing when I irradiated Kela that caught where I was stealthed.

Such fun, being oneshot even by the grunt enemies, isn't it? Seems totally healthy. Sarcasm.

R.I.P EDYinnit. And then getting rewarded with a lens probably.

But once in a while having a challenge is okay, just not if you're not getting properly rewarded for it.

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

R.I.P EDYinnit. And then getting rewarded with a lens probably.

But once in a while having a challenge is okay, just not if you're not getting properly rewarded for it.

Nezha helmet. Strictly less useful. I'll never turn down more lenses until I have a Greater of each school in each equipment slot at the very least, to mix and match as I please.

There's a big difference between challenge and cheapness. I wish I'd taken a screenshot of Kela's platform during the fight, there must have been at least 40 Grineer on and around it. When all of those are capable of oneshotting the player, honestly, what can you do but cheese right back, such as by stealthing the whole way through?

[IceColdHawk]

Just now, EDYinnit said:

Nezha helmet. Strictly less useful. I'll never turn down more lenses until I have a Greater of each school in each equipment slot at the very least, to mix and match as I please.

There's a big difference between challenge and cheapness. I wish I'd taken a screenshot of Kela's platform during the fight, there must have been at least 40 Grineer on and around it. When all of those are capable of oneshotting the player, honestly, what can you do but cheese right back, such as by stealthing the whole way through?

That's why we got the cheese! No seriously, you don't need stealth. Bring a frost with you who defends you, a chroma, valkyr or excal who takes care of the damage and maybe a looter nekros for giggle reasons who can also terrify the enemies away. Don't expect to enter the battle with a banshee and get out safely.

I remember from my good old days and my first fight against vay hek (the old one, with the hek as a weapon). We were in a squad and i was there with my standard equip. We shot all our ammo into him and proceeded to skana him while reviving each other the whole time since he's been like 2 or 3 shotting us.

It was fun, believe it or not. Felt like a true battle. With cover and all that stuff.

It feels like you haven't played borderlands 2.

[TheLexiConArtist]

5 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

That's why we got the cheese! No seriously, you don't need stealth. Bring a frost with you who defends you, a chroma, valkyr or excal who takes care of the damage and maybe a looter nekros for giggle reasons who can also terrify the enemies away. Don't expect to enter the battle with a banshee and get out safely.

I remember from my good old days and my first fight against vay hek (the old one, with the hek as a weapon). We were in a squad and i was there with my standard equip. We shot all our ammo into him and proceeded to skana him while reviving each other the whole time since he's been like 2 or 3 shotting us.

It was fun, believe it or not. Felt like a true battle. With cover and all that stuff.

It feels like you haven't played borderlands 2.

Well I did say such as stealthing, and I'm a solo kind of player wherever I can get away with it, obviously bringing more allies gives you the luxury of bleedout and possibly being revived, if nothing else.

Why shouldn't a Banshee be able to fight too, y'know?

 

I totally know what you mean about fighting old content with old power levels. I have more fun lately waiting for alerts with something marginally useful like a helmet blueprint I haven't bothered to get, or a Nitain (never not prepared!), and a non-'endless' mission type, then just use the Randomiser to give me a set of crappy gear to play through the mission with. Even try to use a little of everything, both guns, melee and frame abilities over the run, just to keep things fresher.

It's even challenging sometimes! But then there's the times I random the Tonkor or SySim and it's over before it began despite the lack of mod capacity I have in the god-tier weapons...

Anyway, point is, there's no challenge, no cover fun, when one unceremonious attack is enough to drop you instantly with nothing to do but spend a revive (soloing). As if it wasn't bad enough to give everything that oneshotting power, the fact that they combined the defensive aspect in to make the enemies all spongy too, giving you even more opportunities to get cheaply screwed out of life before you take the enemies out... that's just ridiculous.

[IceColdHawk]

1 minute ago, EDYinnit said:

Why shouldn't a Banshee be able to fight too, y'know?

She is. But not as effective as others. This is a coop game, don't expect things to be on the same level as solo, especially sorties. Banshee solo is weak and frail. But as a damage supporter in a TEAM, she excels. Frames got their own strengths and weaknesses. If everyone would be equally good at everything, what's the point then?

Sometimes you just need the right tools for the job.

[Igrithys]

46 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Sometimes you just need the right tools for the job.

I agree. Sure I die as soon as anything looks at me but playing it smart is enough to get you by.

Spoiler

 

[--Q--uaint]

19 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

based on triggering Impact procs

lol nope.

20 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

I don’t mind having to melee to kill them if they're focused on me,

I do. They spam homing missiles that kill you quickly and CC you so you can’t get away or even use countermeasures.

I've not much to say for the rest of your post. *shrug*