Anti-grindwalls and a defence of a random element in rewards

[Fifield]

DE need content

Without content, veteran players will quit.

But good content is very expensive.  DE put out new frames, mods and weapons instead.  Frames in particular are deliberately made difficult to obtain so that we a) don't exhaust new content quickly b) feel a sense of achievement.

What's the best way then to make such things difficult to obtain?  It's not grindwalls.
 

Anti-grindwalls

Nothing says that the difficulty obtaining a new frame should involve grind.  Grind is any process that is repetitive or boring.  In Planetside 2, for example, you can play for 1000 hours without being able to cert most stuff but few care because it's not repetitive or boring.

Grindwall = run same mission 20x

Anti-grindwall = run 20 different missions, all of which are at least vaguely challenging.

Simple.
 

RNG

When I'm talking about RNG, I'm not talking about your experience of Warframe.  I'm talking about having a random element in reward systems.

Psychology shows that most people prefer random rewards to predictable rewards.  The former is potentially exciting, the latter is a job.

It's called positive intermittent reinforcement:
http://therawness.com/the-compliance-recipe-part-3-intermittent-rewards/

RNG is only bad...

a) When you have to run the same mission (or similar ones) dozens of times.  This is the repetition issue as above.

b) When RNGesus hates you.    Particularly for repetitive grindwalls, drop rate should increase with # of completed missions.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Fifield

[Falling_Objects]

Psychologist here, please stop misusing the term 'psychology' in commonspeak, and you've combined two unrelated concepts together with an unsuitable source. Thanks in advance. 

[Fifield]

You need to pick your battles more carefully.  I'm going to guess I've been a psychologist far longer than you.

Also, please do not derail my thread.

[Yezzik]

I dislike RNG. Have you ever done the Ravenholdt grind in World of Warcraft?
You farm items that, though they have a random drop chance, you're guaranteed to get some.
In half an hour, you've made a good chunk of progress toward your goal. You can SEE that progress. You can QUANTIFY it.
You put the time in, and that rep bar WILL fill out completely.

But prime parts? Every time I don't get one I'm after, I consider that wasted time.
I'm not making any progress toward my goal at all.
Nobody's going to want to buy the junk I got instead, and the only way I can soften the RNG is through Platinum.
That's bad.
It doesn't make me want to pay money, and just makes me want to play other games.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Yezzik

[letir]

4 hours ago, Fifield said:

Psychology shows that most people prefer random rewards to predictable rewards.  The former is potentially exciting, the latter is a job.

So, when i got another piece of trash on my 15 run (and lose all keys in the process), it's not a job, but some kind of enjoyable game?

[Fifield]

31 minutes ago, Yezzik said:

I dislike RNG. Have you ever done the Ravenholdt grind in World of Warcraft?
You farm items that, though they have a random drop chance, you're guaranteed to get some.

I haven't played it but you're saying it's still got RNG.  The RNG is there because most people like the unpredictability.

[Fifield]

12 minutes ago, letir said:

So, when i got another piece of trash on my 15 run (and lose all keys in the process), it's not a job, but some kind of enjoyable game?

Maybe read the post you're responding to?

5 hours ago, Fifield said:

b) When RNGesus hates you.    Particularly for repetitive grindwalls, drop rate should increase with # of completed missions.

 

[Yezzik]

2 hours ago, Fifield said:

I haven't played it but you're saying it's still got RNG.  The RNG is there because most people like the unpredictability.

The RNG with my example just determines how quickly you reach your goal.
The RNG in Warframe determines whether you even reach your goal or not.
One's acceptable, the other's terrible.

[Fifield]

5 minutes ago, Yezzik said:

The RNG in Warframe determines whether you even reach your goal or not.
One's acceptable, the other's terrible.

A very specific aspect of Warframe's RNG yes, but the terrible bit is mostly down to being compelled to repeatedly run the same boring missions.  
I honestly wouldn't mind an anti-grindwall for getting Inaros ie ~50 different challenging missions instead of ~50 spy missions.

[Yezzik]

2 minutes ago, Fifield said:

A very specific aspect of Warframe's RNG yes, but the terrible bit is mostly down to being compelled to repeatedly run the same boring missions.  
I honestly wouldn't mind an anti-grindwall for getting Inaros ie ~50 different challenging missions instead of ~50 spy missions.

For me, variance in mission types wouldn't fix anything.
I'd still just see it as time wasted not getting any closer to what I wanted.

[Fifield]

9 hours ago, Yezzik said:

For me, variance in mission types wouldn't fix anything.
I'd still just see it as time wasted not getting any closer to what I wanted.

You can choose to look at it that way if you want.  Frankly, if it takes a random number between 20-60 runs vs 40 runs, then seeing any of them as time wasted is illogical.

Also, I hate to break it to you but all computer games are time wasted.

[(PSN)SofeSNBR]

Maybe all void rng should be replaced by ticket system. Get tickets from missions, use those buy what you want. That way you can just play it for fun, without getting frustated by horrible rewards.

[Fifield]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)SofeSNBR said:

Maybe all void rng should be replaced by ticket system.

Arguably, that's what trading is for.  And with ducats, all parts are worth something.

Personally, I'd hide deliberately-rare prime parts behind skill walls -- but that would require fixing all cheese and OP stuff.  They could be hidden behind MR walls in the meantime (ie you need to be MR 15+ to do T5).

There's nothing wrong with a predictable reward system.  We have that for affinity & mastery rank.  Most players prefer an element of RNG (and skill) in it though.

 

[(PSN)SofeSNBR]

Just now, Fifield said:

Arguably, that's what trading is for.  And with ducats, all parts are worth something.

Personally, I'd hide deliberately-rare prime parts behind skill walls -- but that would require fixing all cheese and OP stuff.  They could be hidden behind MR walls in the meantime (ie you need to be MR 15+ to do T5).

There's nothing wrong with a predictable reward system.  We have that for affinity & mastery rank.  Most players prefer an element of RNG (and skill) in it though.

 

Problem with skill system is that depending on challenge, only certain frames can do those. MR system wouldnt help much(draco), because if we want true skill system, that means we need implement system where mission needs to be defeated by certain conditions.

[(PSN)VayMathias]

I much prefer the grind wall to rng. At least with the grind wall, if I put 100 hours into a game, I'll benefit from the results. As it stands right now, with RNG you could theoretically put in 1000 hours and have nothing to show for it, while someone else could put in 100 and have everything.

[Fifield]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)SofeSNBR said:

if we want true skill system, that means we need implement system where mission needs to be defeated by certain conditions.

It would require changing the game to require skill, which would be worth doing anyway.

@VayMathias I suggest re-reading the original post as well as the comment where I told someone to read the original post for the exact same reason.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Fifield

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

45 minutes ago, (PS4)SofeSNBR said:

Maybe all void rng should be replaced by ticket system. Get tickets from missions, use those buy what you want. That way you can just play it for fun, without getting frustated by horrible rewards.

The problem is that there's no pity timer or crafting. In many rpg games you can craft a rare item from like 1000 more common items. You get a few for every run, so even if you're extremely unlucky you can eventually just craft the rare drop. That's what people wanted from void trader. Ability to say, take 100 or 500 random prime parts and turn them into specific prime part. Basically ability to buy any prime part for 5000 ducats or so. What they got is another piece of frustration. 

Frankly, this game has a lot of completely pointless, idiotic rng that simply makes it worse. Examples?  Some tiles are extremely rare for no reason, which makes tilesets look bad because only half of available tiles spawn. A lot of normal enemies don't spawn in certain missions, making them more monotonous and boring. Nauseous crawler eximus would be dangerous in high level infested survival but it never appears there for example. 

As for drop rng, in other games it's 0,1% progress per mission with a chance to get lucky and get 100%. In warframe it's 0 or 100% where it counts. And nothing stopping you from hitting zero forever. 

[Fifield]

Excellent comment, LordGremlin.

This 'pity' system already exists for prime parts with ducats and I & many others will always buy 5 prime parts for 7 plat.  So why does prime RNG still bother people?  Do they have too many ducats and can't be bothered trading?  Or are they just not thinking about ducats when they drop prime junk?  Or is the disparity between a part worth 10 ducats and one worth 80pl too much?

I have a much bigger problem with non-prime frame RNG eg Ivara.  I could buy the frame with plat I've earned but otherwise the only way to get her is to do the hellish spy mission grind for which there is no 'pity' system.  I'm very glad DE have moved away from that with the last few frames.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Fifield
Corrected name

[goatwithbenefits]

16 minutes ago, Fifield said:

Excellent comment, LordGremlin.

This 'pity' system already exists for prime parts with ducats and I & many others will always buy 5 prime parts for 7 plat.  So why does prime RNG still bother people?  Do they have too many ducats and can't be bothered trading?  Or are they just not thinking about ducats when they drop prime junk?  Or is the disparity between a part worth 10 ducats and one worth 80pl too much?

I have a much bigger problem with non-prime frame RNG eg Inaros.  I could buy the frame with plat I've earned but otherwise the only way to get her is to do the hellish spy mission grind for which there is no 'pity' system.  I'm very glad DE have moved away from that with the last few frames.

You've probably meant Ivara. Inaros is an excellent example of acquiring warframes the right way. That aside, both Ivara and prime items are the same when it comes to frustration. Like you can trade your undesired prime parts to the void trader or other players, you could as well transmute and sell the mods you've acquired from the spy runs for Ivara. Neither however would more or less directly bring you a step closer to your goal.

[Fifield]

Correct, too many new frames and not enough coffee.  Plus I don't have her yet.

Trasmuting the mods is a pretty awful way of getting value from the spy runs which I refuse to do anyway because >1 is repetitive & boring.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Fifield

[phoenix1992]

I am starting to get lost when I see most of those topics. 

The game right now works with two economic factors:
a) Flat out buy it
b) Trade for it
This means that Sorties and Primes are okay, yet many players cry over them.

The issue pops up when things have too low drop rate, you can't purchase them and you can't trade them. The thing that pops up in my mind is Imperator Vandala Receiver. It is just hilariously bad gated. Another point is the Stalker/Grustrag drop tables. They are just BAD and the market equivalents  (Hunhow's gift, Stalker who) are hidden behind hideous platinum wall. I am not even considering the normal Detron - hideous to grind, and no reason to grind it at all (you have direct upgrade of it).

[Zari2015]

22 hours ago, Yezzik said:

I dislike RNG. Have you ever done the Ravenholdt grind in World of Warcraft?
You farm items that, though they have a random drop chance, you're guaranteed to get some.
In half an hour, you've made a good chunk of progress toward your goal. You can SEE that progress. You can QUANTIFY it.
You put the time in, and that rep bar WILL fill out completely.

This! Finally!

And after the Mists of Pandaria launch any kind of items no longer have a less than 1% drop chance to the "really rare stuff" (wowhead has gone really outdated in lower content).

Not like Warframe (if this drop chances are true http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Lancer ) that mean this game missing the part between farming something that drops from every enemy  and farming from 1 kind of enemy who spawns after a few seconds/minutes.

As a bonus Check This Out!. For people who knows the story, this thing at his first beginning he had 0.01% drop chance and it could be done once per week, now is up to 2% http://www.wowhead.com/item=32458/ashes-of-alar WORTH FARMING FOR VETERANS WHO ARE STILL PLAYING.

Lucky me got it long time ago 

I don't care about the warn! Just fix the drop tables.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Zari2015

[Fifield]

Changed the title a bit so people think about it rather than ranting about their experience of Warframe RNG.