Cells - This Is Warframes Endgame

[notionphil]

Hi Nakatotaiyou, thanks for the critique. Replies below:

 

ehhh so you're saying the point is to give motive to use new weapons/frames? i much prefer the current motive which is im using what i enjoy most using, this way it feels ill either have to use some weapon i dont like or delevel my favourites ones, in both cases something i wouldnt want to do...

 

The general point of Cells is to give players a reason to challenge themselves and explore the game's content. Without reasons to explore content, everyone uses the Supra with the same mods and the Despair with the same mods, and Rhino/Saryn/Frost....all at level 30 all Forma'd the same way. You may not find the monotony boring, but I'd suggest many people do.

 

You can breeze through a L15 Cell with your LV 30 forma'd modded supra and your 30 rhino, but you will not get the reward. If you want the reward, challenge yourself and explore the game's other content. The rewards of those Cells are for those who enjoy challenge and exploration - the game already has other rewards for the comfort of repetition and perfection (grinding, 100 lv defense).

 

I should also note - there should be plenty of L30 cells that don't require you to do anything to your gear, except maybe forma it at Hard, Extreme, Agent levels. Also most Cells wouldn't be restricted to a certain weapon or Frame.

 

i think cells are a nice idea as missions, but as far as metagame goes they do nothing but force players to use more equipment. i instead think we should be using weapons/frames that suit our playstyles and we enjoy using . i think thats why mastery rank doesnt unlock too much equipment, if it did players like me would be forced to use equipment they dont like, then throw it away, just in order to reach a mastery rank. your cells work exactly the same way in that aspect.

 

Mastery rank unlocks nearly all high end equipment as far as I can tell...not sure why you say it doesn't unlock too much.

 

It is currently the primary 'end game/metagame' mechanic, however, earning it is done through grinding. The only challenge to gaining mastery is how much time you play the game. I'm currently leveling up a Lex (its now 20) and have not fired it once, bc I have a 30 ignis and a dera. I am using Lex purely for mastery. There is nothing to motivate me to fire that lex, except if i run out of ammo. Thus, nothing is motivating me to even see if I enjoy it.

 

Imagine, a Lex origin story Cell, "The Outlaw" Where Lotus sends you through a Cell on an abandoned mining vessel overrun by a Grinner 'rustler' gang. The last mission culminates in a Lex versus Lex duel against a team of outlaws. I'd use the Lex for that. Heck, I might even Forma it :)

 

You see, Cells reward players for experimentation, teamwork, planning and overcoming challenges. For stepping outside their comfort zone and risking it all.

 

The Game is running around in a ship, offing space creatures with exotic and progressively more powerful weapons. It's fun.

 

The Metagame  is planning which Cell you want to run, putting a team of allies together, strategizing re the recon conditions to prep your gear, then risking your hard earned credits and build time for a 'failure is not an option' surgical strike. Then, if your plan executes well and if you can overcome the real-time Impasses thrown at you, you succeed, get the glory, and can live to help others through that moment. It's an experience.

Edited June 12, 2013 by notionphil

[Invino]

Pretty good idea, however ... hate to be a cynic but unless you are going to spend platinum on End Game, they won't make it.

Just look at mastery .. without getting new stuff to level, don't get any, but need certain ranks for weapons. End game is levelling to gain mastery to level some more to use a weapon to gain mastery ... ad infinitum.

Defences were super cool, now with hugely nerfed pod/core a bit of roulette when a bunch of elite mobs can fail you in 10 seconds.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Invino

[notionphil]

Pretty good idea, however ... hate to be a cynic but unless you are going to spend platinum on End Game, they won't make it.

 

 

 

I am happy to pay for a game that I enjoy. As a software programmer in RL, I respect the value of code and understand DE needs to profit from their investment.

 

I can only hope this concept is thouroughly reviewed by DE as well as Phaenur's concept.

Edited June 12, 2013 by notionphil

[Relkin]

I am happy to pay for a game that I enjoy. As a software programmer in RL, I respect the value of code and understand DE needs to profit from of their investment.

 

I can only hope this concept is thouroughly reviewed by DE as well as Phaenur's concept.

I'd throw money at them to implement either of these ideas, but if they did this AND Phaenurs.....

[W4RM4CHIN3]

+1

[Dieson]

As Notionphil has said the whole point of Cells is to challenge you, pushing you out of your comfort zone is part of the defenition of a challenge.

 

It's gives you a playing field with you at one end and the objective at the other, with obstacles inbetween and requires you to figure out the best, not necessarily the fastest or easiest way, to get from point A to point B

 

Also, as Notionphil pointed out, not all probably not even most Cells, will require of you to sacrifice your levels or prefered playing style.

 

Plus, like I really don't like playing Rescue missions, you won't have to play the cells that will require things from you that you don't like, just saying :)

 

 

Whoops forgot to mention this is a reply to what Nakatotaiyou wrote earlier.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Dieson

[nakatotaiyou]

Hi Nakatotaiyou, thanks for the critique. Replies below:

 

 

The general point of Cells is to give players a reason to challenge themselves and explore the game's content. Without reasons to explore content, everyone uses the Supra with the same mods and the Despair with the same mods, and Rhino/Saryn/Frost....all at level 30 all Forma'd the same way. You may not find the monotony boring, but I'd suggest many people do.

 

You can breeze through a L15 Cell with your LV 30 forma'd modded supra and your 30 rhino, but you will not get the reward. If you want the reward, challenge yourself and explore the game's other content. The rewards of those Cells are for those who enjoy challenge and exploration - the game already has other rewards for the comfort of repetition and perfection (grinding, 100 lv defense).

 

I should also note - there should be plenty of L30 cells that don't require you to do anything to your gear, except maybe forma it at Hard, Extreme, Agent levels. Also most Cells wouldn't be restricted to a certain weapon or Frame.

 

 

Mastery rank unlocks nearly all high end equipment as far as I can tell...not sure why you say it doesn't unlock too much.

 

It is currently the primary 'end game/metagame' mechanic, however, earning it is done through grinding. The only challenge to gaining mastery is how much time you play the game. I'm currently leveling up a Lex (its now 20) and have not fired it once, bc I have a 30 ignis and a dera. I am using Lex purely for mastery. There is nothing to motivate me to fire that lex, except if i run out of ammo. Thus, nothing is motivating me to even see if I enjoy it.

 

Imagine, a Lex origin story Cell, "The Outlaw" Where Lotus sends you through a Cell on an abandoned mining vessel overrun by a Grinner 'rustler' gang. The last mission culminates in a Lex versus Lex duel against a team of outlaws. I'd use the Lex for that. Heck, I might even Forma it :)

 

You see, Cells reward players for experimentation, teamwork, planning and overcoming challenges. For stepping outside their comfort zone and risking it all.

 

The Game is running around in a ship, offing space creatures with exotic and progressively more powerful weapons. It's fun.

 

The Metagame  is planning which Cell you want to run, putting a team of allies together, strategizing re the recon conditions to prep your gear, then risking your hard earned credits and build time for a 'failure is not an option' surgical strike. Then, if your plan executes well and if you can overcome the real-time Impasses thrown at you, you succeed, get the glory, and can live to help others through that moment. It's an experience.

i didnt say no to challenge and exploration, more challenge is one of the things warframe needs, i just dont like forcing playstyles or equipment into players. but since you said there will be some cells with no equipment restriction and high levels i dont have a problem with that, and you can just do the specific cells for your favourite weapons like the lex for example, we agree to that. sorry about what i said about mastery, i didnt check the wiki for the clan weapons since i didnt want to spoil myself.

however cells are just more complicated missions, with great challenge and reward. i wouldnt call that exactly a meta game, what happens when you get all the rewards you need from cells?

[Dieson]

Good question, and i would say it depends on the sort of reward you get. 

 

One way to maybe not avoid but at least attempt to work around the "been there, done that" feeling / mindset / whathaveyou, would be for the rewards to be resources.

 

But not simply resources as we know them now but more in the style of blueprints for Very Rare mods that you have to build yourself, maybe with the ability to actually modify the final stats and effects of the mod once it's done, or parts, or BP for parts to warframes or weapons that can further upgrade an already lvl 30 weapon or frame beyond what Mods, Forma, Reactors or Catalysts already do.

 

Some could be purely aesthetical upgrades (Trinitys lobster tail comes to mind and Banshees feet, also that wierd bump / lump / flashlight? on the business end of the Kraken), others could be parts that add small boosts that could help in further Cell adventures, the possibilities could be endless.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Dieson

[nakatotaiyou]

Good question, and i would say it depends on the sort of reward you get. 

 

One way to maybe not avoid but at least attempt to work around the "been there, done that" feeling / mindset / whathaveyou, would be for the rewards to be resources.

 

But not simply resources as we know them now but more in the style of blueprints for Very Rare mods that you have to build yourself, maybe with the ability to actually modify the final stats and effects of the mod once it's done, or parts, or BP for parts to warframes or weapons that can further upgrade an already lvl 30 weapon or frame beyond what Mods, Forma, Reactors or Catalysts already do.

 

Some could be purely aesthetical upgrades (Trinitys lobster tail comes to mind and Banshees feet, also that wierd bump / lump / flashlight? on the business end of the Kraken), others could be parts that add small boosts that could help in further Cell adventures, the possibilities could be endless.

great ideas, however the title was initially "this is the metagame"(now he changed it) so thats why i was interested in the topic, and im not here just to play with words, endgame and metagame have a vastly different meaning. otherwise this is pretty nice, i just think its wrong to label it a meta. also warframe is more in need of creating a meta than expanding the endgame like this. but i may be wrong since a meta in a pve only game seems extremely hard to do. Edited June 12, 2013 by nakatotaiyou

[Dieson]

Good point, and apologies if you are already aware of this thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/57629-retaking-origin-a-suggestion-for-a-perpetual-endgame/. What Phaenur suggests in his opening post and what Notionphil is saying here, sounds when combined, like the thing you might be looking for metagame-wise?

 

Depending on execution that could be both meta and endgame in one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited for not mentioning Notionphil, sorry! >_<

Edited June 12, 2013 by Dieson

[Joos]

I was trying to read the wall but then I seen the word endgame and couldnt help but stop reading and thinking to myself that this game has no endgame why do people keep saying endgame?

[Dieson]

Because it could perhaps need something akin to an endgame?

[notionphil]

great ideas, however the title was initially "this is the metagame"(now he changed it) so thats why i was interested in the topic, and im not here just to play with words, endgame and metagame have a vastly different meaning. otherwise this is pretty nice, i just think its wrong to label it a meta. also warframe is more in need of creating a meta than expanding the endgame like this. but i may be wrong since a meta in a pve only game seems extremely hard to do.

 

Hi Nakato, The title was always "this is the endgame" in order to be understandable at first glance...but yes, I am referring to Cells as a Metagame, not solely an endgame as I state in the post. I appreciate your critique and would love to hear some additional ideas on how Cells could potentially become more Meta to you.

 

IMO...

 

Endgame = Content,  Metagame = Mechanic.

 

I do believe what Phaenur and I are both suggesting are Metagame mechanics not Endgame content. But you can easily add Endgame content to either my or his suggestion; or hopefully both.

 

Imagine Agent level Cells for multiple groups in different instances, which require unique guild crafted Dossiers, only obtainable by Phaenur's Global Conflicts, on the highest level system. You might have to even have single issue Dossiers so multiple guilds have to work together....etc etc...but lets not get ahead of ourselves :)

 

I (maybe "we") are staying away from specifc examples because we want to present the mechanic in its most straightforward format as to inspire debate and hopefully engineer change.

 

 

Thanks!

[notionphil]

...What Phaenur suggests in his opening post sounds like the thing you might be looking for metagame-wise?

 

Depending on execution that could be both meta and endgame in one.

 

Exactly - I think Endgame is content. Metagame is a mechanic that contextualizes, re-purposes or gives value to that content! Phaenur's suggestion (and mine, I believe) would be perfect veichles for content, across all levels, not just Endgame.

[Pyromite]

What motivation do I have to create an Ember and a Burston? Currently, none. I know Ember and Burston aren't great(I have ~20 items at 30).

 

Ember isn't great? Ember is one of the best, in right hands. No other Warframe can clear room full of enemies as fast as Ember using World on Fire

[notionphil]

Ember isn't great? Ember is one of the best, in right hands. No other Warframe can clear room full of enemies as fast as Ember using World on Fire

 

Cool down Ember, just an example :P hehehe

[Serapix]

Love this idea...however the constant level then Forma back to square one will get old..fast. This would make the Forma a necessity to farm, not an option, and its intended purpose is to enhance your gear by adding polarity slots so you can squeeze in that extra mod. 

 

What I would suggest is a method to dial down the Mod Capacity of gear, because people love their death machines.  This accomplishes your goal of making content harder, because you cannot over power these cells, and it retains the purpose of the Forma.  It would also encourage players to Forma their gear.

 

Also, I would add that if any frame is above the mentioned Mod Capacity upon start, it voids the bonus reward for that group, so players can't be carried through the missions.  Because with this system there is no excuse to being above the ranges of the cell.  

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

This is an excellent, but highly complicated idea that will require a bit of work by the devs for sure. With that said, this is the hands-down best suggestion I've seen in the two months I've been here. Really OP,  this is a great suggestion which I hope the devs hop on after they've ironed out whatever additional content that they've got brewing for us.

[Morrowsong]

Some excellent ideas from the OP which would definitely spice up missions adding to game longevity. Some of these scenarios would also encourage tactical play over rushing for those particular missions.

[Zanukacola]

This is a really cool idea. I wouldn't say that I'm anywhere near endgame, but 'The First Skana' is definitely something I'd look forward to.

 

Edit: This idea is so great that it received my first post ever.

Edited June 13, 2013 by qujokun

[notionphil]

Love this idea...however the constant level then Forma back to square one will get old..fast. This would make the Forma a necessity to farm, not an option, and its intended purpose is to enhance your gear by adding polarity slots so you can squeeze in that extra mod.

What I would suggest is a method to dial down the Mod Capacity of gear, because people love their death machines. This accomplishes your goal of making content harder, because you cannot over power these cells, and it retains the purpose of the Forma. It would also encourage players to Forma their gear.

 

Hi Serapix,

Two key purposes of Cells are to give players a reason to challenge themselves and explore Warframe's content. Yes, allowing them to drop their gear level temporarily would still result in a challenge, but it wouldn't push anyone to explore new frames, weapons and try out different combinations that they never even thought about, and might actually enjoy.

There would be plenty of Cells at LV30, so if you only want to use your particular set of gear, not Forma and never de-level (remember, permanent gear de-leveling would be a free, instant option), you'd be able to. But, if you're a completionist, or if a particular low level Cell storyline (EX: 'The First Skana') or reward piques your interest - why not build that Mag that's been sitting around in your foundry?

I think a temporary dial-down is too 'temporary' - remember, Cells aren't regular missions, you're not running one of these 2x a night. You might plan a Cell for days. Heck, the build time on any mid level+ Dossier(cell key) will probably be 3 days. These are akin to 'epic quest' content from a regular MMO.

You can't save the universe every day. Some days, you just kill Grineer :)

Edited June 13, 2013 by notionphil

[iMatsu]

Well. First off, I want to say this idea is really well thought-out, and I really like the whole Cell idea. Being able to challenge oneself was something I was looking for in Warframe after I hit Rank 5 and sort of topped out there. If this idea is ever implemented in any way, does that make the Stalker Sam Fisher?

[Reichmar]

@notionphil

First, great post. You thought this out and it shows. Thanks for your contribution.

 

I like your idea! I really do. In my opinion, it isn't enough. Cells will certainly add a varying dimension of rewarding gameplay, but the game still needs linear progression that rewards getting stronger and stronger. Think of the current market space, many games (and I'll admit, I'm comparing this game to MMOs and ARPGs and the like because I think the comparisons are valid) have challenges as you've outlined AND a linear endgame.

 

If anything, I think the cells can form half of WF's endgame content. They sound amazing, and I'd like to see them. But we still need tougher and newer content with better and better rewards for max level players that is regularly updated.

[aerokiss]

i +1'ed without reading. :D

[snurton]

Hi Serapix,

Two key purposes of Cells are to give players a reason to challenge themselves and explore Warframe's content. Yes, allowing them to drop their gear level temporarily would still result in a challenge, but it wouldn't push anyone to explore new frames, weapons and try out different combinations that they never even thought about, and might actually enjoy.

There would be plenty of Cells at LV30, so if you only want to use your particular set of gear, not Forma and never de-level (remember, permanent gear de-leveling would be a free, instant option), you'd be able to. But, if you're a completionist, or if a particular low level Cell storyline (EX: 'The First Skana') or reward piques your interest - why not build that Mag that's been sitting around in your foundry?

I think a temporary dial-down is too 'temporary' - remember, Cells aren't regular missions, you're not running one of these 2x a night. You might plan a Cell for days. Heck, the build time on any mid level+ Dossier(cell key) will probably be 3 days. These are akin to 'epic quest' content from a regular MMO.

You can't save the universe every day. Some days, you just kill Grineer :)

I'm loving the idea of this Cell end game, it sounds very much like what Warframe really needs. However, I too am against permanent level reduction in equipment. I'd be more than happy to temporarily drop it down (say, given an option at the beginning of the Cell), but permanently? No thanks. I didn't work on levelling up this weapon just to drop it back to level 10 for a single run. I understand what you're trying to accomplish with the planning of the Cell, and exploring more of Warframe's content and it's great in theory, but I think in practice, it would get very annoying. If I feel like levelling up a new weapon, I'd be more than happy to do it, but in my own time.

 

The problem with exploring a new weapon/frame specifically for a Cell would be that I'd be more unfamiliar with that weapon/frame. If I'm intentionally running lower level gear, I'd like to be comfortable with the frame/weapons I'm using, because of the emphasis put on failing a Cell. And what if I lower my gear for a Cell, then suddenly an exciting alert on Pluto or my team wants to run a T3 Void mission comes up? I'm stuck with level 10 gear, and have to re-level it all.

 

So overall, I love the idea of the Cells, I really hope DE takes your suggestion into consideration. I also understand what you're attempting to achieve with permanent de-leveling, but personally I'd hate it, and I'd prefer it to be temporary, especially when Cells are intended to be run infrequently.