Cells - This Is Warframes Endgame

[notionphil]

Also, I would add that if any frame is above the mentioned Mod Capacity upon start, it voids the bonus reward for that group, so players can't be carried through the missions.  Because with this system there is no excuse to being above the ranges of the cell.  

 

Missed 2nd part of your post...

 

This definitely needs to be discussed. I have not mentioned what happens to other players rewards when higher level gear is brought into a mission because I haven't figured out a simple, true solution. Here's the complicated mess I have so far :)

 

My thought is that players should be able to run Cells with any level gear they want, and simply not get the reward if they are OP. Why? Because there will be numerous players who will pout about not being able to use their 30 Forma'd Supra and Saryn on every mission, no matter what. If I want to trivialize that content, or just see the storyline and don't want the reward - I should be able to.

 

But refuse to put my 30 Supra away, it's not fair or fun for that to affect your reward or ruin your epic challenge. So, the Dossier holder - the one putting it all on the line, makes the call. After using the Dossier:

 

"This Cell is a Agent Difficulty challenge for Lv 15 Warframes & Gear.

Using gear above Lv15 will not grant the Cell's completion reward

Do you accept the Challenge?"

 

(buttons)

 

[Accept Cell Reward & Challenge: Gear limited to LV15 ] OR [No Cell Reward: No gear restrictions]

 

If the dossier holder selects [Reward & Challenge], Frames simply have any OP gear replaced with stock Brattons, Latos, Skana, Excal;) non modded versions of their gear.

 

If they select [No Cell Reward], all frames can equip whatever they want.

 

Much like guild's have MOTD, the Cell MOTD would be

 

"This Cell is a Agent Difficulty challenge for Lv 15 Warframes & Gear - Challenge Accepted & Reward Granted Upon Completion"

 

OR

 

"This Cell is a Agent Difficulty challenge for Lv 15 Warframes & Gear - Challenge Rejected - No Reward Upon Completion"

Edited June 13, 2013 by notionphil

[Reichmar]

Some of the clarifications are enlightening and well done, but you can't replace content designed for max level, well modded players with ONLY challenge modes. 

 

I hope DE looks at this as it would be a great component for the game, but they need to look at content for well-modded lvl 30 players with well-modded guns that progresses character and weapon development too.  

[Whackhat]

+1.

 

From the title, i thought this was an orokin cell rant. =P

[Pourvoir]

I like the idea of story arcs, but I dislike the way you've set this up.  Honestly it sounds like free to play crud that is just slopped in to get the player to play more.  The way the game is now, I don't have to plan to be on at certain times which I love.  I don't ever want to have to schedule when I'm going to play with friends.

 

The level restrictions are silly.  You're calling it a metagame mechanic.  Metagame is generally what is affecting the cap level.  Also certain players who can't or don't want to polarize or use a new warframe would be missing out on content which obviously isn't good.  Deleveling just to do a span of missions doesn't work regardless though.  This isn't gw2; I don't want to level down.

 

These also don't have replayability attached to them.  It sounds like once I've ran the cell I'd be done with it.  So you'd either need to add a crazy amount of them or it'd be a one time thing.  DE obviously isn't into adding content that is only going to be done once.  

 

I like the ideas of the story arcs and it's good that people are being constructive about adding content to the game, however, it's a very amateur idea. It's not really adding any new content into the game.  This idea is just slapping current things together to make the player percieve that its actually new.  I don't see anything that would make my "pulse pound".  I'd just be doing a string of crap to get crap while dealing with annoying crap like having my shields gone... doesn't sound fun to me honestly.  

 

The game needs actual new content.  Not just stuff smashed together.  I'm sure DE could do something with your idea of story arcs though.  

[notionphil]

I'm loving the idea of this Cell end game, it sounds very much like what Warframe really needs. However, I too am against permanent level reduction in equipment....

 

...So overall, I love the idea of the Cells, I really hope DE takes your suggestion into consideration. I also understand what you're attempting to achieve with permanent de-leveling, but personally I'd hate it, and I'd prefer it to be temporary, especially when Cells are intended to be run infrequently.

Hi Snurton,

 

I do honestly understand what you're saying about permanent level reduction in equipment, and as a player, I agree. But from the perspective of gameplay design, I do not. I let me tell you why I am so ardent.

 

My profession is software programming. (I'm sure many of us here are in the same field). This isn't to say that I know anything more than anyone else here, but it does give me a perspective on 2 things that non-dev's may not have:

 

1) Reusing already built assets makes things easy to build. ( corpus tech = easy to build. Grinner Scorpion = hard to build)

2) What the user wants is not always what they need :(

 

 

To point 1)

In order for DE to strongly consider them - Cells need to be designed using almost exclusively existing gameplay systems - Yes, there is a better system than permanent de-leveling of gear. Gear can de-level temporarily, and after the mission XP up to the prior level can be gained back at 2x rate and ...... yeah.....too complicated, DE doesn't want to build/tweak/test it.  Right now, we just need Cells Alpha.

 

Also, if Cells launched tomorrow with Temp level reduction, and DE removed that feature in the future, everyone would freak out. However, if they launch w Perm delevel...saw playerbase response, and added a temp delvel later. Or added a 1 Plat purchase of temp devel ;) .......you get the point. There are solutions, but we don't need them right now.

 

To point 2)

I love the gorgon. But I haven't used it in weeks bc it's 30. and I want mastery 7! I've since 30'd the Hek, Ignis and am working on Dera. I still prefer the Gorgon! The player in me wishes Forma'ing it would give me mastery....but the dev in me knows it cant. Bc everyone would just use the exact same gear. Then they would get bored of the monotony. Then they would post threads asking for new more powerful weapons. Content is hard to build! Reasons to explore content are easier to build - if you have the right systems (Cells, Mastery).

 

Temporary level reduction won't work for Cells for the same reason Formas dont give mastery XP - it would kill the content exploration aspect of the Mastery system. If you can run any Cell with any equipment, you lose the content exploration aspect of Cells. We will grumble, but then we will find a way (and love every second of it).

[notionphil]

I like the idea of story arcs, but I dislike the way you've set this up.  Honestly it sounds like free to play crud that is just slopped in to get the player to play more. I don't ever want to have to schedule when I'm going to play with friends.....

 

-lots of negative stuff- :D

 

....The game needs actual new content.  Not just stuff smashed together.

 

Sorry you don't like the concept! I believe Cells would add a lot to the Warframe universe.

 

By content, you probably mean you'd like a million more frames, weapons, enemies, abilities, systems, mission types and tilesets. We all would - they are time consuming and expensive to deploy. I could suggest a thousand myself!

 

However, Cells are a gameplay mechanic that gives players more reasons to explore the existing content, and a way for DE to add lore to it. The fact that they use existing gameplay systems and content, making them easy to deploy.

 

We can all sit here and bang our keyboards demanding MOAR FRAMZ N STUFF TO SHOOT but...with the only the current METAGAME (yep, I said it again!) system of mastery...we'll burn through content 10x faster than DE can make it. We need new Metagame. Cells are it.

[Pourvoir]

 

 

My profession is software programming. (I'm sure many of us here are in the same field). This isn't to say that I know anything more than anyone else here, but it does give me a perspective on 2 things that non-dev's may not have:

 

1) Reusing already built assets makes things easy to build. ( corpus tech = easy to build. Grinner Scorpion = hard to build)

2) What the user wants is not always what they need :(

 

 

 

 

Programming software isn't game development.  The first point is not even a perspective of programming, it's just common sense.  If the user needs something that isn't there, usually they will end up wanting it.  Also, programmers (I'm actually mastering in CS(but majord in game development)), designers, chefs, dollhouse builders, and any profession should be listening to the criticizm and negatives. 

 

Sorry you don't like the concept! I believe Cells would add a lot to the Warframe universe.

 

By content, you probably mean you'd like a million more frames, weapons, enemies, abilities, systems, mission types and tilesets. We all would - they are time consuming and expensive to deploy. I could suggest a thousand myself!

 

However, Cells are a gameplay mechanic that gives players more reasons to explore the existing content, and a way for DE to add lore to it. The fact that they use existing gameplay systems and content, making them easy to deploy.

 

We can all sit here and bang our keyboards demanding MOAR FRAMZ N STUFF TO SHOOT but...with the only the current METAGAME (yep, I said it again!) system of mastery...we'll burn through content 10x faster than DE can make it. We need new Metagame. Cells are it.

 

No that's not what I meant and if you read what I had said it's obvious I'm not just asking for more frames and guns.  I want a new way to utilize them like intense boss fights that take up the whole level and have stages to them and so forth.  Actual NEW content that gives us something NEW to do.   You're creating more A dominant strategy just like defense missions.  The bigger problem with these cells is that the player is going to be feeling bored when they aren't in one if it becomes the new defense mission and will not feel as inclined to play.  You have a lot of people going "OMG THIS IDEA IS AMAZING" because its something new and you got into detail with a long post.  Like I said, pay attention to the criticizm and negatives.  If you're having to defend the idea then there's a problem.

[notionphil]

These also don't have replayability attached to them.  It sounds like once I've ran the cell I'd be done with it.  So you'd either need to add a crazy amount of them or it'd be a one time thing.  DE obviously isn't into adding content that is only going to be done once. 

 

Because of the time, risk (resources to build dossier) and challenge inherent in running Cells, I think some would have rare material caches (X orokin cells/forma bp/catalyst bp) as static rewards. Because they are all on a single timer and have a resource cost (you can only build one dossier at a time), risk in overfarming can be controlled.

 

So, you'd probably want to run many of them them multiple times.

[Reichmar]

Because of the time, risk (resources to build dossier) and challenge inherent in running Cells, I think some would have rare material caches (X orokin cells/forma bp/catalyst bp) as static rewards. Because they are all on a single timer and have a resource cost (you can only build one dossier at a time), risk in overfarming can be controlled.

 

So, you'd probably want to run many of them them multiple times

I know you're responding to a lot of folks, but I'd like your opinion on whether you want your Cells to be the end all for Warframe endgame content. You keep referring to this as a metagame, which I understand, but do you really think this should be the only new variety of content that DE needs to implement?

[Dieson]

Essentially how it works and how it's going to keep working for the forseeable future is that, as the development of Warframe is being funded by the Devs and players both, that Digital Extremes have to run a fine line between what the general player base wants, and what Warframe actually needs.

 

This means that although we as players might not like, that potentially months go by between releases of new weapons or frames etc, and lets face it, individually we might be smart, bright, wise, whatever to realise this, as a group we are all a bit dumber than average and don't consider what's best and instead basically demand as loud as possible that we want everything, preferably yesterday(if we can get away with it).

 

For DE this means that although it might not be a particularly popular thing to do, sometimes they have to step over that fine line, not far, not for long, but enough that they get the work done that needs doing instead of what we want them to do.

 

That is sadly almost the default setting of humanity in general this day and age.

[notionphil]

Programming software isn't game development.  The first point is not even a perspective of programming, it's just common sense.  If the user needs something that isn't there, usually they will end up wanting it.  Also, programmers (I'm actually mastering in CS(but majord in game development)), designers, chefs, dollhouse builders, and any profession should be listening to the criticizm and negatives. 

 

I am not suggesting dev's should not listen to criticism at all. You should always listen to your users! I embrace critique, it makes your idea stronger. A bad idea should be punished until it gets stronger, or dies :)

 

But sometimes the user's immediate goal or desire is not good for their longterm usage.

 

Do you think if WF took a poll, most users would say that they wanted Forma'd gear to increase mastery? I believe they would. But since you are a game developer, you know this is not a good idea for the longevity of the game. It would ruin gear exploration.

 

Also, since you are a game developer, you should know that your concept of more intense, multi stage boss fights is SUPER resource intensive. It could take around the same dev cost to build 2 or 3 unique multi stage boss fight than to develop the entire alpha Cell system. And which will have more positive impact on gameplay? I am going for max effect min resource - my Point 1, which you said is common sense.

 

As I said initially, you correctly identified that Cells are not content. They are a Metagame mechanic made to help players explore content and challenge themselves, as well as provide lore and context for that content. I agree the game needs more content - Ok. Start a thread abt it?

[Dieson]

With all that said

(see my previous post)

 

Does Warframe need some sort of endgame? yes

 

Will Cells be the final ultimate WF endgame? yes, no, maybe, who knows? noone from DE has responded to this thread, so untill we get an actual official response all of this is just ideas, theory, and a good discussion about potential.

 

Should people listen to criticism, of course they should, but does that mean they have to bend they head, get on their knees and admit defeat and give up on their ideas because someone thinks something or all of it doesn't or won't work? no, definitly not.

 

Was this what is being said in the above posts? no i know it's not, i'm trying however to point out that yes criticism is good, constructive criticism even better, but taking in the criticism does not mean that they must or even should follow it, they might have a specific plan of action, with a certain goal they want to reach and accomodating the criticism might end up making that impossible.

 

An important thing about criticism is that, good or bad, it doesn't make it the truth / only way / correct, etc etc.

[Ced23Ric]

I have to admit, this thread is highly productive and I really like what you guys crafted here. Great concept. I'll see whether I can move this upstairs.

 

Also, DE may not be responding, but trust me, they are reading. I spotted a few staffers in here, snooping around. ;)

[notionphil]

I know you're responding to a lot of folks, but I'd like your opinion on whether you want your Cells to be the end all for Warframe endgame content. You keep referring to this as a metagame, which I understand, but do you really think this should be the only new variety of content that DE needs to implement?

 

Thanks, great question that has been hinted at in many posts but not answered succintly by me. I think my attempt at answer was lost down in an previous (long, knowing me) reply. But you asked it directly....I will reply that way.

 

As Pourvoir vehemently and correctly pointed out, Cells are a mechanic, they are not Content in-and-of themselves*. They are Metagame. Content is the actual stuff in the game. New frames, new weapons, new "intense multi stage boss fights", new stealth strategies, new mods and of course new guns... We need ALL of that stuff. And it will keep coming. That's how MMO's are. But new content takes a long time to build and is expensive.

 

*The Impasses and the Recon Conditions are content.

 

Metagame = Mechanic outside of gameplay |  Endgame = High Level Content

 

Mastery is an example of Metagame. A trading system could be an example of metagame. Chat is metagame. Clans are metagame. Cells would be  metagame.

 

The actual Game is us running around in ships killing the crap out of space baddies with awesome weapons. The systems that amplify our motivation to do that, largely, are Metagame.

 

To put an Endgame together, DE will hopefully use a number of Metagame mechanics that provide access to new, super challenging content and rewards. So No, I do not feel that Cells alone, with no addtional content, should be 100% be Warframes endgame.

 

A Metagame will never preclude the need for content. But I believe that If DE released 10 multi stage bosses, 10 weapons 10 primes for example -  we'd get 1000% more fun and challenge out of it, exploring every aspect of its lore and uses, WITH Cells, than without Cells. Hopefully by the time we were half done, they'd release more Endgame content :) See what I'm getting at?

 

*edit - edited first sentence for clarity - added 'outside of gameplay' to metagame description

Edited June 13, 2013 by notionphil

[Reichmar]

@Notionphil

 

Thanks for your response. Based on your answer, I view the "Cell" idea to be a very valuable addition to the game.

 

What I like about it is that as new content is added, new bosses, new weapons, levels, new difficulty levels, etc, the Cells can be easily scaled up. It seems as a very logical partner to linear, top-end progression that we're expecting from DE.

 

I can see myself sitting down and having a choice: do I want to build my frame for very hard, high tier content and keep growing in power, or do I want to challenge myself in specific mission scenarios?

 

Whereas some players will prefer linear progression, this would help others who prefer lower level gameplay (or making alts, or who just prefer a metagame style) get their fix. Both groups can have their pie and .. well, you know.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Reichmar

[MusicGamer]

This looks pretty cool.  :D  DE Should take a look at this!

[notionphil]

@Notionphil

 

Thanks for your response. Based on your answer, I view the "Cell" idea to be a very valuable addition to the game.

 

What I like about it is that as new content is added, new bosses, new weapons, levels, new difficulty levels, etc, the Cells can be easily scaled up. It seems as a very logical partner to linear, top-end progression that we're expecting from DE.

 

I can see myself sitting down and having a choice: do I want to build my frame for very hard, high tier content and keep growing in power, or do I want to challenge myself in specific mission scenarios?

 

Whereas some players will prefer linear progression, this would help others who prefer lower level gameplay (or making alts, or who just prefer a metagame style) get their fix. Both groups can have their pie and .. well, you know.

 

Thanks, questions like yours, as well as positive and negative feedback help to refine the idea. I have made some small edits to the original post and will continue to update.

 

You nailed it exactly, Cells are a partner to content (new and old, high lv and low lv). You want a reason to fully forma that Despair, try a Level 30 Agent Difficulty Cell. Maybe even run a Solo only or Duo only one....Good Luck taking down 2 bosses at once at the Impasse, while the ship is under attack!! Or, you want a reason to build the Jaw sword that you have the BP for (and some impetus to continue boosting your Mastery besides just the Supra?) Go find out where that Jaw was actually from with the Lv 10 Jaw Sword Origin story Cell!

[poTshoT]

Someone get this man a sticky!

 

And then this thread can BE Warframe!

[TheHeraldXII]

Good work here, this is the kind of thing I look forward to this game developing. +1 for a well thought out idea.

[Pourvoir]

 

Also, since you are a game developer, you should know that your concept of more intense, multi stage boss fights is SUPER resource intensive. It could take around the same dev cost to build 2 or 3 unique multi stage boss fight than to develop the entire alpha Cell system. And which will have more positive impact on gameplay? I am going for max effect min resource - my Point 1, which you said is common sense.

 

As I said initially, you correctly identified that Cells are not content. They are a Metagame mechanic made to help players explore content and challenge themselves, as well as provide lore and context for that content. I agree the game needs more content - Ok. Start a thread abt it?

 

It would obviously be content.  It's something for the player to do or get, that's content to me.  

 

As to the amount of resources used to making a boss stage.  Oh well, creating games is EXTREMELY HARD work.  You don't think about the money, you think about the user experience.  Also they just got into a deal with sony..;.. so yeah lol.  However, when you're creating content for the game as a player there is no point in creating mediocre content just because its cost effective.  programming software is a totally different thing than programming for games obviously.  Creating reusable classes, headers, and etc. for whatever you are working on is great but polymorphism and inheritance can only be translated so far into the gaming realm.  The level reusage is great but eventually you have to implement new creations and it's gotten to that point or at least very close to it.

[notionphil]

It would obviously be content.  It's something for the player to do or get, that's content to me.  

 

The Cell mechanic is not content. Individual Cells that the Devs would craft for you to play would obviously be content. However, I have not really listed those in this thread, save a few examples - I'm much more interested in the mechanic at this time.

 

Since you are primarily interested in content, and seem to want to discuss this topic  :), I would love to hear some examples of Content that you think would be interesting in Cells. Maybe some better Recon Conditions or Impasses? Ways of making Cell Bosses more interesting?

 

 

[Pourvoir]

The Cell mechanic is not content. Individual Cells that the Devs would craft for you to play would obviously be content. However, I have not really listed those in this thread, save a few examples - I'm much more interested in the mechanic at this time.

 

Since you are primarily interested in content, and seem to want to discuss this topic  :), I would love to hear some examples of Content that you think would be interesting in Cells. Maybe some better Recon Conditions or Impasses? Ways of making Cell Bosses more interesting?

 

Well I'm not personally a fan of the recon condition things cause you start to make certain mods useless and I hope that you'd know the conditions before you entered the missions yes?  I don't have any expanded ideas of things but this game reminds me of monster hunter quite a bit and I'd love a boss like lao shao lung from that.  Very epic and rewarding boss.  You're welcome to come in my stream and chat about your idea with my viewers to see what they'd say about it.  twitch.tv/lefendal

[nakatotaiyou]

one final feedback

i like the suggestion, longer more challenging missions that give special rewards( id love to see cells like the first skana give a perk to that specific weapon, statwise or visually) and require preparation, something already done in a smaller scale when void missons where introduced. still i see no logic behind the level restrictions. you can simply make the missions challenging for level 30 equipment, not force players to delevel. this just limits player customization. but your intention is probably to make players get new equipment so they can use those instead of deleveling, thus creating a motive to explore warframe's content. this is just stupid in my eyes, players will just pick up new weapons for the cells and throw them away after. no, just make different weapons useful and unique, something which is already done to some extent. for example you said why fire my lex when i have dera and ignis, lex is simply more efficient in a lot of cases, considering either of the weapons you mentioned are not good for long range, not to mention lex will one shot most things so unless you are fighting very large groups lex will still perform better. ignis/dera just have higher dps(which is not important if lex one shots) can handle big groups better but have poor range. there is a variety of weapons that are more useful than others depending on the situation, there is not a single best weapon or frame. using a new weapon just becase a mission requires you to delevel existing ones is a really bad motive in my eyes, that motive is basically erased the moment you finish the cell. a weapon's usefulness is a much better motive.

[snurton]

To point 1)

In order for DE to strongly consider them - Cells need to be designed using almost exclusively existing gameplay systems - Yes, there is a better system than permanent de-leveling of gear. Gear can de-level temporarily, and after the mission XP up to the prior level can be gained back at 2x rate and ...... yeah.....too complicated, DE doesn't want to build/tweak/test it.  Right now, we just need Cells Alpha.

 

Also, if Cells launched tomorrow with Temp level reduction, and DE removed that feature in the future, everyone would freak out. However, if they launch w Perm delevel...saw playerbase response, and added a temp delvel later. Or added a 1 Plat purchase of temp devel ;) .......you get the point. There are solutions, but we don't need them right now.

 

To point 2)

I love the gorgon. But I haven't used it in weeks bc it's 30. and I want mastery 7! I've since 30'd the Hek, Ignis and am working on Dera. I still prefer the Gorgon! The player in me wishes Forma'ing it would give me mastery....but the dev in me knows it cant. Bc everyone would just use the exact same gear. Then they would get bored of the monotony. Then they would post threads asking for new more powerful weapons. Content is hard to build! Reasons to explore content are easier to build - if you have the right systems (Cells, Mastery).

 

Temporary level reduction won't work for Cells for the same reason Formas dont give mastery XP - it would kill the content exploration aspect of the Mastery system. If you can run any Cell with any equipment, you lose the content exploration aspect of Cells. We will grumble, but then we will find a way (and love every second of it).

I think point 1 is interesting, but anything permanent on the first release is shaky. Considering how DE's had to retroactively reward or fix certain things (think big fusion core patch a while ago, Reaper Prime Handle drop rates, rare Void keys in packs), putting in a permanent system at release could have some serious problems to it. Personally a permanent system would frustrate the hell out of me, I didn't just work to level up my gear only to result in it being low level again. Like I said, I'd like to be able to run high level content when I wish to, and not have to re-do all the leveling just because of one single Cell run.

 

To point 2, I think it's not necessarily about just exploring more content with the mastery capping. I think it's also about DE wanting to control how many mastery points people can earn. If you could re-earn it with forma, you could have infinite mastery points. Temporary level reduction might kill some content reduction, and it might not. Like I said, if I'm running something that has an impact for failure, I'll be running weapons I'm comfortable with, regardless. I'll buy a second set of Kunai or something, that I'll keep permanently low levelled, rather than "explore" new weaponry.

 

I can guarantee you, lots of people will not run Cells if they must de-level their gear. Considering it's intended to be an infrequent run of say at most once a day, people will say screw it, and focus on other content where they can play with whatever gear they want.

 

To put in more constructive discussion, I think we need gear presets more than ever with the suggestion of Cells. Considering the environmental hazards, specific enemies, temp/perma de-levelled gear, it'd be a real pain in the &#! to re-mod absolutely everything for a single run. 

[fatpig84]

Nice Wall of text, but I can understand.