Cells - This Is Warframes Endgame

[notionphil]

I really like this idea!!!!

 

I also really like the idea of frame-specific challenges you sort of mentioned, like you need a trinity to heal you through a certain area, or a volt to help the team speed through some parkour.

 

Would be awesome to have frame specific challenge for ALL frames, like 

 

Rhino - Iron skin required to get through knockdown room, like a bunch of those orokin knockdown towers that send out waves simultaneously, only rhino can get through it with iron skin.

 

Trinity - Link through fire room

 

Mag - Pull obstacles in order to jump across a chasm

 

Frost - Snowglobes to get through laser room

 

I don't know, that kind of thing I feel would be interesting, give the frames some more personality perhaps.

 

You sir, understand the point of Cells 100%.

[r3dzer0]

after  a very very long read..i can very well see this system as creating a more enjoyable experience.  There is definetely a lack of direction with this game.  It has unending potential.  I was actually discussing this with my brother this morning( we all play together :P) that the game in of itself feels like it lacks that special something.  For example (wow is really the only other mmo i heavily invested in) World of Warcraft has raiding which is sort of like a check point to evaluate and increase your power.  I'm by no means saying that we need to group multiple squads together to take down an enemy or a ship; I do however enjoy this idea of the cells.  They can string together so many possibilities rather than just speed running through the game to farm your parts etc.  For instance lets say you have a dossier that is for an assassination of some big grineer general. The first mission can be finding the keys to unlock his room, second can be shutting down security, 3rd defense for the opening of said door and 4th(depending really on how many are strung together) the fight with him.  That allows for story telling to take place! your actions have an affect on the next mission.  You feel like you did something other than mindlessly run around and chop up soldiers.  Honestly the game as it is is effectively space ninja version of Mass Effect 3.  Don't get me wrong, ME3 provided countless hours of fun, but eventually it gets old and repetitive.  Multiplayer had no story other than fight the reapers.. that's about where we are right now.

 

In short i endorse this! fat ole +1 Hopefully DE understands that Nightmare mode is not the way to go and that this instead is the real solution

[MattHarrigan]

+1 for OP

 

All in all it is a good idea that will add much exciting gameplay onto the game. Somewhat reminiscent of PSO, STO and otherwise "end game missions".
 

 

Do you mean Phantasy Star Online, Star Trek Online? You know, acronyms only make sense if everyone knows what you're referring to...

[Relkin]

It would seem DE still hasn't picked up on this >:( 

[Bakercompany86]

Oh THIS THREAD!!!  I remember this!  Yes let's keep this thread alive!!!  This is a good idea!

[Relkin]

Oh THIS THREAD!!!  I remember this!  Yes let's keep this thread alive!!!  This is a good idea!

Agreed!  Hopefully some new peeps will be hanging in this section of the forums given the new sticky in general.  

 

On another note, is anybody else afraid that nightmare mode is DE's horrible attempt at this system?

[Eisvogel]

Agreed!  Hopefully some new peeps will be hanging in this section of the forums given the new sticky in general.  

 

On another note, is anybody else afraid that nightmare mode is DE's horrible attempt at this system?

 

I dunno about that...

 

Though, even if this thread uses a lot of nice words and the idea is very neatly elaborated and detailed, the fact remains the same.... is just more missions doing the same stuff over and over..... It's like adding a system of nightmare missions with the added conditions stated here.... and voilà, you get the exact same thing...

 

With all due respect to OP, i honestly believe this "endgame" is no different from void stuff and everyone would do it the first week as novelty (just any new thing) and then get uber bored to ever bother again with it. The key factor is that in the end, it's ultimately the same thing but with a different color and additional objectives.... hence, just as tiresome and even longer.

Not to mention that fulfilling all the aspects detailed here, would require a huge amount of design from the devs and features not currently available in game

Edited August 7, 2013 by Eisvogel

[Relkin]

I dunno about that...

 

Though, even if this thread uses a lot of nice words and the idea is very neatly elaborated and detailed, the fact remains the same.... is just more missions doing the same stuff over and over..... It's like adding a system of nightmare missions with the added conditions stated here.... and voilà, you get the exact same thing...

 

With all due respect to OP, i honestly believe this "endgame" is no different from void stuff and everyone would do it the first week as novelty (just any new thing) and then get uber bored to ever bother again with it. The key factor is that in the end, it's ultimately the same thing but with a different color and additional objectives.... hence, just as tiresome and even longer.

Not to mention that fulfilling all the aspects detailed here, would require a huge amount of design from the devs and features not currently available in game

Eh no matter what you do the entire game is just more missions there is literally no getting around that.  OP's idea is far more dynamic than nightmare missions for starters and secondly is that the challenge can be very specific regarding what weapons/frames you use and how you use them where as nightmare is just the same old crap with player debuffs.  

 

Also nightmare missions are RNG based, which is terrible.  RNG is a crutch used by development teams to stretch out thin content to make it last longer and little else.  Cell rewards are specific which gives players a distinct reward for accomplishing them essentially establishing a contract with the player so they don't feel like they have to go and repeat certain missions if they don't want to after completing them once. 

 

Lastly, Cells include story components and also lore rewards which are also tied into their tangible rewards.  This gives players a sense of actual accomplishment and engagement beyond the current "I am a soulless killing machine gathering power for the sake of gathering power and maybe just so I can commit more genocide".  Frankly, the Grineer and Corpus don't even seem that evil, we do.  

 

So all in all, I'd say to read if you haven't or reread if you actually have the OP's entire post and please reconsider your comparison of the cells system to a very different beast currently called nightmare mode. 

Edited August 7, 2013 by Relkin

[Eisvogel]

Eh no matter what you do the entire game is just more missions there is literally no getting around that.  OP's idea is far more dynamic than nightmare missions for starters and secondly is that the challenge can be very specific regarding what weapons/frames you use and how you use them where as nightmare is just the same old crap with player debuffs.  

 

Also nightmare missions are RNG based, which is terrible.  RNG is a crutch used by development teams to stretch out thin content to make it last longer and little else.  Cell rewards are specific which gives players a distinct reward for accomplishing them essentially establishing a contract with the player so they don't feel like they have to go and repeat certain missions if they don't want to after completing them once. 

 

Lastly, Cells include story components and also lore rewards which are also tied into their tangible rewards.  This gives players a sense of actual accomplishment and engagement beyond the current "I am a soulless killing machine gathering power for the sake of gathering power and maybe just so I can commit more genocide".  Frankly, the Grineer and Corpus don't even seem that evil, we do.  

 

So all in all, I'd say to read if you haven't or reread if you actually have the OP's entire post and please reconsider your comparison of the cells system to a very different beast currently called nightmare mode. 

 

No don't get me wrong, i am not comparing nightmare mode and OP's idea. It's just as i told you on the previous posts..... it has a lot of thought and detailed info, but in the end... it's just more of the same with extras inserted onto it.

 

By no means i am justifying nightmare missions nor saying that they are a nice endgame (they are not even "endgame" it's just a very tiny extra addition mode to some missions, not even possible to choose at will)

 

If you read the forums (i believe you do, i've seen you on quite some posts before), you'll see a lot of nice ideas. Take the lore component rewards for instance.... people have been asking for more game lore for quite a long time (the game is pretty naked and raw lore-wise), but forcing it into a so called "endgame" and as rewards as the OP described? It's kinda lame and weak honestly, and definitely not a good way to introduce the much needed lore in the game.

 

Also, restricting players with their gear and stuff, it's in no way any different from stat variations.... it's the same cheap way to do it, no real difference.... the only change is how the difference it's implemented, nothing else... and it is more restrictive. I also think nightmare mode was supposed to introduce gear limitations too (which would make it even crappier).

 

So the only thing left is the non RNG rewards... which it's ok and all, probably anyone who doesn't want to grind will like that. But you have to justify it properly, else you are just burning content instantly and the devs have no way to keep up with that. That's why hardly any game gives such static rewards in this manner and more % drop rewards. Look at void missions for instance, once people get what they want to build their new prime things.... hardly ever they play it again (for example, i wouldn't play another Mobile Def void mission except to help friends who need it). If on top of that, the rewards are fixed.... then that's about it... play it once and never again..... much like most of the missions (those dots in each planet :P).

[Bakercompany86]

Naw, Nightmare mode was a bandaid I think.  Maybe even intended to be changed all along.

 

It's a salvageable idea, but definitely needs changing.

 

 

 

THIS is a great idea.  I hope it catches on.

[-Henosis-]

This is a great idea overall. I really feel that lack of variety content and find myself doing the same thing over and over for no real reason. This will give the game a new burst of life that really needs. +1

[notionphil]

Also, restricting players with their gear and stuff, it's in no way any different from stat variations.... it's the same cheap way to do it, no real difference.... the only change is how the difference it's implemented, nothing else... and it is more restrictive. I also think nightmare mode was supposed to introduce gear limitations too (which would make it even crappier).

 

So the only thing left is the non RNG rewards... which it's ok and all, probably anyone who doesn't want to grind will like that. But you have to justify it properly, else you are just burning content instantly and the devs have no way to keep up with that. That's why hardly any game gives such static rewards in this manner and more % drop rewards. Look at void missions for instance, once people get what they want to build their new prime things.... hardly ever they play it again (for example, i wouldn't play another Mobile Def void mission except to help friends who need it). If on top of that, the rewards are fixed.... then that's about it... play it once and never again..... much like most of the missions (those dots in each planet :P).

 

Level restrictions are not at all like stat variations. They are there to give you more reason to explore new weapons, frames and to forma weapons that you'd otherwise ignore. Enemies would be appropriately scaled to the level.

 

Stat variations (a la nightmare shield drain)exist to enhance challenge by reducing your power relative to that of your enemy.

 

No, 'the only thing left' is not non-RNG rewards. Lore. Multi-mission arcs. Impasses (random events within the levels themselves). Perma-death. Pre announced conditions.

 

A single team of tenno, banding together for something, anything other than an endless defense mission. And yes, an Non RNG reward.

 

What will justify the 'one off' creation of these Cells? They are simple to create. It takes no more than dialog to create the majority of them, as they use the existing gameplay systems. Creating a new one would be as simple for the devs as filling out a form. Hmm, this one takes place on a ship under attack, ok lets add some dialog abt that from Lotus. Even text would suffice.

 

And for you? Instead of mindlessly grinding the SAME 3 void missions 50 times to get a prime, you would be building dossiers, putting a trusted team together, and running  4 or 5 Cells (each with 3-5 missions). And squeezing every last drop of effort into succeding, because failure = death = loss of your dossier build cost. Time to hit the drawing board, and re-think strategy. Or re gear & forma.

 

Risk = Reward.

 

Oh, and all the while, learning about the origin or history of that same item you so desire.  

 

Quite distinct from running random nightmare missions that show up at random times, with random people, random conditions, to cross your fingers and end up with a random chance at a mod.

Edited August 8, 2013 by notionphil

[Eisvogel]

Level restrictions are not at all like stat variations. They are there to give you more reason to explore new weapons, frames and to forma weapons that you'd otherwise ignore. Enemies would be appropriately scaled to the level.

 

Stat variations (a la nightmare shield drain)exist to enhance challenge by reducing your power relative to that of your enemy.

 

No, 'the only thing left' is not non-RNG rewards. Lore. Multi-mission arcs. Impasses (random events within the levels themselves). Perma-death. Pre announced conditions.

 

A single team of tenno, banding together for something, anything other than an endless defense mission. And yes, an Non RNG reward.

 

What will justify the 'one off' creation of these Cells? They are simple to create. It takes no more than dialog to create the majority of them, as they use the existing gameplay systems. Creating a new one would be as simple for the devs as filling out a form. Hmm, this one takes place on a ship under attack, ok lets add some dialog abt that from Lotus. Even text would suffice.

 

And for you? Instead of mindlessly grinding the SAME 3 void missions 50 times to get a prime, you would be building dossiers, putting a trusted team together, and running  4 or 5 Cells (each with 3-5 missions). And squeezing every last drop of effort into succeding, because failure = death = loss of your dossier build cost. Time to hit the drawing board, and re-think strategy. Or re gear & forma.

 

Risk = Reward.

 

Oh, and all the while, learning about the origin or history of that same item you so desire.  

 

Quite distinct from running random nightmare missions that show up at random times, with random people, random conditions, to cross your fingers and end up with a random chance at a mod.

 

Sorry but i still don't see any difference from what i already pointed out, you are just putting extra things (even if they don't fit) to something which is already the same as we have.

 

While those things would be nice to have, they are only complements.

Story? Lore? that's what we've been asking since forever.... and you want to introduce it here instead of the actual game and give some proper challenge to the game itself? why would we do that? really?

Don't get me wrong... this would make a nice addition to the gameplay..... but it's not fit for "endgame" and if devs need to do as much work as needed for this, i'd rather they focus on the actual game and not just extra features.

 

The thing you mention that :

 

 

Level restrictions are not at all like stat variations. They are there to give you more reason to explore new weapons, frames and to forma weapons that you'd otherwise ignore. Enemies would be appropriately scaled to the level.

 

Makes no sense at all, to explore new weapons you'd otherwise ignore? What on earth are you talking about? How level restriction would change that? Not to mention, that people with more limited resources and stuff, would probably be at a tight spot there.

 

And no, it doesn't make any difference at all..... lowering your mod capacity, is effectively the same as changing enemy stats... so don't try to beat that around the bush, it's a fact.

[notionphil]

The conversation about level limits happened in this thread about 2 mos ago....I don't really want to go back over all of the reasons I suggested it but if you are interested, please read through some of the longer posts in here. I tried my hardest to make a compelling case and many saw eye-to-eye with my rationale.

All in all, cells are not content. They are a means of delivering and contextualizing existing or new content. One that in my opinion would be much more successful at engrossing the player in a meaningful experience than simply adding new guns/planets/mods to the existing system. If you have other ideas, by all means, suggest them.

[Eisvogel]

The conversation about level limits happened in this thread about 2 mos ago....I don't really want to go back over all of the reasons I suggested it but if you are interested, please read through some of the longer posts in here. I tried my hardest to make a compelling case and many saw eye-to-eye with my rationale.

All in all, cells are not content. They are a means of delivering and contextualizing existing or new content. One that in my opinion would be much more successful at engrossing the player in a meaningful experience than simply adding new guns/planets/mods to the existing system. If you have other ideas, by all means, suggest them.

 

No i don't really mean to go over the same thing again, i pointed out the problems of it.... and answered to your reply with facts about what you stated and how the game mechanics work, nothing more.... so no need to prolong that any further. Whether it's nice or not, it's another thing entirely... but it's in no way any different from stat variation, it's just a complementary (crappier imo) way to do it.

 

As far as the Cells idea in general, as stated above... it would be nice and all, but with the amount of work needed for just that.... i would rather see new mechanics and endgame context instead of more of the same with some neat additions. And i don't mean new guns/mods/dots (i call missions dots, they don't have more meaning than that to me =P).

 

As far as ideas, feel free to check my posts or the posts of others nice suggestions to the game... it would be disrespectful to OP to make a new suggestion here, derailing his polished thread.

[legionufo]

Oh Well!! a walking dead thread. You just hope it idea has too much change so until now they couldn't make it yet else DE dont like this and nothing will change.

[arch111]

I think the ideas are sound. Story Arcs with connected maps make sence.

We so not even need to talk Endgame. New players need direction and a reason to play.

Let the starnmap be random, or else remake the systems into Quests.

The way I see it i shiuld learn and get new gear and skills AS I progress a map.

Warframe does not do this. Cells ties into Mission creation that devs are talking about.

Niggtmare is a small addition for the hard core Basr.

The events are a glimpse of how Cells could be, and I do think they ARE reading and losing sleep over the current state.

[RaianStar]

This is BEAUTIFUL!  I can't wait to see this become a reality!

[Bibliothekar]

Story? Lore? that's what we've been asking since forever.... and you want to introduce it here instead of the actual game and give some proper challenge to the game itself? why would we do that? really?

It's not about the big Lore, but the little stuff. Background stories that add some flavour, like "How the Latron was invented", "The first Shade". Things like that.

 

Oh, and Eisvogel: Please stop full-quoting if you're responding to the posting right before yours. I've already read it, I don't need to be reminded what s/he wrote. Use @nick instead. Thanks :)

[Eisvogel]

It's not about the big Lore, but the little stuff. Background stories that add some flavour, like "How the Latron was invented", "The first Shade". Things like that.

 

Oh, and Eisvogel: Please stop full-quoting if you're responding to the posting right before yours. I've already read it, I don't need to be reminded what s/he wrote. Use @nick instead. Thanks :)

 

I respect your preferences, but i would appreciate if you extended the same courtesy.... as many others, i dislike @nick responses.... i'd rather quote them unless they are wall-o-texts or with pictures videos (which in some cases i edit or just -snip-). And not everyone chooses to read like you do.

 

About the lore, whether big or small, we are in dire need of it.... it's not like it would be bad to do this..... but if we have to choose, it's far more vital to get lore in the game rather than making it available the way this idea suggests it. If we can have both the things i've mentioned in previous posts and this idea, i am sure everyone would be happy, personally i would welcome it with open arms and a big smile.... but if we have to choose between time for this, or time for actual content in the game and the challenges/endgame we really need..... it's pretty clear that the latest one is the priority.

[notionphil]

 

About the lore, whether big or small, we are in dire need of it.... it's not like it would be bad to do this..... but if we have to choose, it's far more vital to get lore in the game rather than making it available the way this idea suggests it. If we can have both the things i've mentioned in previous posts and this idea, i am sure everyone would be happy, personally i would welcome it with open arms and a big smile.... but if we have to choose between time for this, or time for actual content in the game and the challenges/endgame we really need..... it's pretty clear that the latest one is the priority.

 

I disagree, because the current mission/void structure makes new content feel pointless/shallow, and lets us burn through it at a trivial rate. The dev's could introduce a frame and gun every two weeks and we'd burn through it like it was nothing, and never give a second look bc it had no meaning all along. Like the Vasto - where did that come from? Gunslinger? Is there a backstory for me to get attached to it? A mission where I am rewarded for using it specifically? or are we just adding cool looking items now?

 

 

 

Cells are esentially Quests, but for the Warframe universe. If you've ever played any RPG, imagine it without quests. There is no reason to do anything more than once. No story, no logical reward. Maybe drops, that's it. That is like the current state of WF. That's also why it's confusing that you want lore WITHOUT quests. How would you contextualize that lore and make sure the content it is tied to effectively reused by the player base?

 

EX: Nova.

 

When Nova came out, how long did it take for a large % of the hardcore player base to get her? 5 days? Because all the devs can do is reduce drop rates with RNG. There are no extended quests, no multi part stories, no barriers or real time sinks (besides grinding feldrons). We burn through content because it's just sitting on a plate in front of us. Cells put logical, lore and challenge based barriers to content.

 

If Cells existed, they could have put the systems, helm and circuits for Nova behind 3 different sets of Cell missions, each with a plot about how Antimatter is being researched as a weapon by the Corpus, but Lotus conspiring to steal it for the Tenno cause. Each Dossier(cell key)r could take 24 hr to build. Farming those dossier drops from Void could have taken days. A suped-up Raptor could have been the end boss of the last Cell, not one that you grind mindlessly for 50 runs, but one that is feared as the final challenge to a series of missions on a remote Corpus outpost. With a story about how Corpus were building an Antimatter bomb (raptor's dreaded bomb) but you will destroy it and take the technology from it's ruptured hull. Your Cell succeds, then you build Nova, and become the Antimatter bomb.

 

It's hard to see how you don't prefer that over running Raptor 50 times.

 

See...Cells aren't some alternate play mode...They are a system for making new/existing content more interesting and for the devs to deliver endgame content. Devs will introduce new content (Frames and Gear). The question I ask you is, how much will you enjoy that content, and how much more would you enjoy that content WITH Cells?

 

Since you keep referring to Lore, how do you think it should be put in the game? Replace the system map with some other interface? Put cutscenes before the existing bosses? It's pointless to come here and say "add lore/content but not this way" and not say how. And I am the OP, I don't mind you adding ideas to this thread. Hopefully they will contribute to the discussion.

Edited August 8, 2013 by notionphil

[Relkin]

No don't get me wrong, i am not comparing nightmare mode and OP's idea. It's just as i told you on the previous posts..... it has a lot of thought and detailed info, but in the end... it's just more of the same with extras inserted onto it.

 

By no means i am justifying nightmare missions nor saying that they are a nice endgame (they are not even "endgame" it's just a very tiny extra addition mode to some missions, not even possible to choose at will)

 

If you read the forums (i believe you do, i've seen you on quite some posts before), you'll see a lot of nice ideas. Take the lore component rewards for instance.... people have been asking for more game lore for quite a long time (the game is pretty naked and raw lore-wise), but forcing it into a so called "endgame" and as rewards as the OP described? It's kinda lame and weak honestly, and definitely not a good way to introduce the much needed lore in the game.

 

Also, restricting players with their gear and stuff, it's in no way any different from stat variations.... it's the same cheap way to do it, no real difference.... the only change is how the difference it's implemented, nothing else... and it is more restrictive. I also think nightmare mode was supposed to introduce gear limitations too (which would make it even crappier).

 

So the only thing left is the non RNG rewards... which it's ok and all, probably anyone who doesn't want to grind will like that. But you have to justify it properly, else you are just burning content instantly and the devs have no way to keep up with that. That's why hardly any game gives such static rewards in this manner and more % drop rewards. Look at void missions for instance, once people get what they want to build their new prime things.... hardly ever they play it again (for example, i wouldn't play another Mobile Def void mission except to help friends who need it). If on top of that, the rewards are fixed.... then that's about it... play it once and never again..... much like most of the missions (those dots in each planet :P).

 

I see you've some valid points here but I also feel they are not insurmountable.  Firstly we know they're adding story missions which is great!  The lore I imagined for Cells would be more historical rather than current, like delving into the lotus's archives.  Regarding repeat rewards discouraging replays well that IS true, but I guess you could add resource/loot pools for future runs after initial completion. 

 

As for it being just more missions, as I said that's literally all this game is.  The only difference is that Cells are consecutive missions that are part of an arc instead of each mission being a self contained completely independent universe.  Of course with that said, wouldn't it be nice if beating missions did things, like some kind of meta game was introduced....

 

 

**EDIT: Derp! Forgot to mention about weapon restrictions - I actually am OK with this because it gives us reasons to use things which aren't kunai -_-

Edited August 8, 2013 by Relkin

[notionphil]

  Regarding repeat rewards discouraging replays well that IS true, but I guess you could add resource/loot pools for future runs after initial completion. 

 

Yes, in addition to the non RNG rewards...

 

....specific mods/bps/rares/keys would also have RNG drops from certain bosses in Cells. However, these would all be able to be found elsewhere.

 

EX: the boss of a specific Cell might have a 10% of dropping Blaze. Another might have a 10% of dropping Vauban helm. Another shorter Cell might drop T3 def keys. So you might farm them for loot, even after you've already beaten the Cell for the non RNG reward.

[Manly_McManface]

Wow... That's a lot of new ideas. I saw a lot of things I like and a few things I didn't like, but over all... it's a pretty good idea. I've really wanted this game to implement the story/lore for quite a while now, and they are doing that in steps. My major concern is "will it be re-playable" but I think you're idea addresses that pretty well. I'm not sure how much I would like it if this exact idea went into the game. But the random conditions and events that could happen inside the mission are something I would love to see happen. Wasn't a fan of some of them, like fighting 2-4 reskinned bosses... that could be too difficult if their levels were too high... also, I would not want to see it work similar to void keys like you described it. I'm already sick of farming, buying and spamming chat for void missions. Over all though, great idea that can be worked with a lot. +1

[notionphil]

also, I would not want to see it work similar to void keys like you described it. I'm already sick of farming, buying and spamming chat for void missions. Over all though, great idea that can be worked with a lot. +1

 

Thanks very much for the feedback. I consider the mission conditions to be a little placeholder-y. The key of the idea is the mechanic itself.

 

One key element with the Dossiers is that once you acquire one for a specific Cell you can build it over and over again. They do have be built from a BP, but the BP isn't consumed when built. The build time/cost exists to add an element of risk (if you fail, you've wasted time/credits).

 

But the actual dossier BP is yours forever, so you can just build/run again. I think that would make it a bit easier to plan which Cells you want to run.

 

It would be kind of like if you could run T3 void def once every day for a cost of 15k credits. Less annoying than farming void keys, but still a bit of RNG and grind involved.

 

Any thoughts on this?