Updated Somewhat new "Endless" mission with us scaling in ti, reworking Endless mission to some point!

jinxeverything · April 24, 2016

Going to keep the original ideas with its flaws to make sure it makes sense regarding some of the comments below also to turn it into some sort of progress log for me, skip it unless you are so bored you want to put yourself to sleep, if so be my guest :P

Spoiler

Recently after the topic of "some frames need more mod slots than others" which you can find here :

It reminded me of something, enemies can scale to the point they are stronger than the hardest bosses the game can offer and yet we can't scale in missions like they can, why?

If we can scale then how to scale in a way that does not break the game, in a way that makes us strong yet weak, how?

Here's my solution, it's far from perfect and it will have more of "give us advantage over enemy" which need to be corrected and for that i need your knowledge and understanding!

Ok then what to scale and what to remain the same?

Lets start on what to remain the same!

Armor.
Health.
Shields.
Power (energy pool).
Speed.
Power range ( i will get to it below).
Attack speed of melee weapons.
Reload speed of weapons (charge rate included).
Status chances.
Critical chances and critical damage.

What to scale!

Power duration.
Power efficiency (with a catch to it).
Power strength.
Weapon damage.
Companion as well? (i say yes :D).

So, how to handle scaling, well its simple, when we go for endless missions we notice that when enemies gain levels they also gain more damage and not only that but they seems harder to kill due to an increase in armor, health and/ or shields thus becoming a threat the longer you stay in the missions, but how do we counter that?

Well, add more damage mods, get the right elements when you going against the right faction and get that 1-3 frames that can deal with them and dish out damage while they are at it but is it really the way to go?

Is this how we are supposed to scale to enemies but is it really working? yes to an extent but no, it resulted in creation of ridiculous enemies or some getting weird buffs as well :/

How to counter that (this is for future, after Mag rework, DE will have to create a new monster to counter her, let's stop them before it's too late) and keep the scaling a viable thing is very simple allow us to scale when the mission "ticks"!

When the mission ticks?

Each time you pass 5 minutes mark of survival mission, its a tick.
Each time you pass a round of interception mission, its a tick.
Each time you pass 5 waves of defense mission, its a tick.

So how do we scale?

Each time we pass a tick, we gain an increase of 2.5% to everything, but wait a minute that's a lot of increase, while it sounds a lot its not and how its not?

Simple, think of it this way, when will you gain enough power strength ticks of, lets say 10%?

20 minutes just to get 10% increase

what do you get around 40 minutes? 20%

60 minutes? 30%

120 minutes? 40%

Basically you get 10% every 20 minutes (for survival), not bad at all.

So what about Defense and Interception?

20% increase every 20 waves in defense missions.

5%-7% every 4 rounds in interception missions.

The down side to this scaling is if your frame is at positive value, it will gain this increase, as along as its a 100% that is but if your frame is negative or below 100% it will not gain anything at all!

Here it will look like a lot indeed, but what about enemies at that round/ wave/ minute mark? you got it, some of them won't even feel your increase of your overall damage yet it allows us to keep going because our abilities and damage isn't exactly falling out/ behind but keeping up to them in a way that not way overpowering to them nor under powering us, we are just keeping up with them!

For my Power efficiency (with a catch to it).

Some abilities are toggle drain based, lets use Exalted Blade/ EB here, in that that ability you can reduce the energy drain to below 1 energy per second, these type of abilities that will not get that 2.5% increase in efficiency to prevent abuse/ overuse.

Also 6.Power range, some abilities greatly affect the tile you are in, like World on Fire/ WoF, you can stun lock entire tile with this ability and giving it more range will also get it and any other ability with impressive range abused/ overused.

Corrupted mods were released to help us with scaling, while some of them do help us, like Narrow Minded on Limbo to shrink his Catalysm and boost his duration and Overextended on Loki, it does feel like its something we do need on our frames yet it does not help us very well once enemies level goes super high!

We need "true" scaling not more mods that we try to slap into frames and hope it will help somehow only to break a good balanced build into "ignore this ability and focus on that ability instead" build, while that also useful its not for long runs :(

Rework of missions and new mission!!

Courtesy of MalanCholyMadness,

A new enemy class called Gate Keeper and they appear in Sabotage or Deception missions, why these missions? these missions needs something refreshing that CAN happen, like a boss that randomly show up and when we do manage to kill it, it drops nice loot, you know, something extra to do in these missions!

If DE rework Defense, Survival and Interception mission to be like most of the alerts, like how you go into alert and have to do Defense for 15 waves instead of going from 1 to infinite, 15 minutes Survival and 4 rounds of Interception now that would be great.

For Tower/ Void missions (for these missions, the numbers i putting in is the limit for how far we can go, and we can't go beyond that, that when we extract from the mission wither we liked it or not) :

T1 Survival 20 minutes, Defense 20 waves.

T2 Survival 20 minutes, Defense 20 waves. ( is it me or T1 and T2 are almost the same in term of enemies and difficulty?)

T3 Survival 40 minutes, Defense 40 waves.

T4 Survival 60 minutes, Defense 60 waves.

Do you want a "endless" mission that can spawn boss and feel like worth of your time and effort?

Then what about merging Excavation, Defense, Survival and Interception?

We go into a mission, then we meet up with operative hired by Lotus to help us find something "worthwhile" from said mission, and escort the NPC to "points of interest", he gets there and start doing his thing and we have to protect him until he finish up then we move to the next point of interest, as for his health and shields i say either start with low health/ shields and it goes up as we spent more time or he spawn with several thousands of health/ shields.

The cache, we have to do this while surviving hoards of enemies and kill them for life support pods and protect the NPC while making sure they stay away from him, why? just like regular Interception, if you want to capture a tower you have to keep them away and the round ends, its same here to an extent, the point of keeping the enemies away from the NPC so they don't intercept him from recovering or looting anything for us.

He will behave like this, on his own he will just move on from one point to another once he is finished, we can command him by pressing "follow" and "unfollow".

Also when we play in coop he wont hold a weapon and only focus on his work but when we play in solo he "might" ask for a weapon to help us out!

In this mission, we can leave as soon as Lotus tells we can "go" but we can stay if we want, this is a Risk Vs. Reward mission!!!

Let's call this mission Scavenger (am bad at naming), when we do this mission in the Star Chart missions, what do we see or who we fight?

In regular missions we fight regular enemies with a mini bosses spawning here and there, but we will fight the planet's boss at one point of the mission, but do we kill the boss? no we don't, simply weaken them so they retreat which means they will come back, stronger ( higher level = stronger) and of course when we beat them we get stuff (resource/ mods/ weapon parts if DE decided to put them there)

In Void missions, we fight regular Corrupted enemies (all of them) with a chance to spawn Uncle Vor but we will fight Prime frames, say what?

YES, the Void have a chance to spawn Prime frames to fight us and when we defeat them we get a part of them, how/ why/ what?

When a prime frames spawn, lets say Trinity, she will spawn with primary, secondary and melee weapons (randomly selected), and when we defeat her we get a chance of getting a piece of her loadout, from the frame itself to weapons she used, only one part per encounter.

But why only one piece and why from her loadout? to keep the drop table clean from garbage drops and give you a chance at a prime part.

Also the Void will spawn random frames with random weapons loadout therefore we get a chance at a prime part without junk (orokin cell, cores and what not) thrown in.

So, random frame with random weapons will result in this reward table ( i know myself, i will forget about 1 part of prime, sorry about that) :

Blue Print (frame)
Blue Print (primary)
Blue Print (secondary)
Blue Print (melee)
Helmet BP
Chassis BP
Systems BP
Receiver / Pouch
Receiver/ Pouch
Stock/ Star
Stock/ Star
Barrel
Barrel
Ornament
Handle
Blade

As you can see, this way we have 16 items in drop table and we can get 1.

The question is, should this be the only way to get prime parts from the Void or make it a separate reward as in a bonus for defeating the "warrior/ protector of the Void"?

BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING HERE IS REWARD FOR EFFORT AND TIME SPENT IN THERE, REWORK REWARD TABLE AS WELL!!!!

Please share your knowledge with me to further improve this great game and help DE have easier time with this game!

Sorry for any typo

The new "Endless" mission is a mix of Excavation, Survival, Mobile Defense and Defense to an extent and i would like to call it Scavenger mission!

How it goes and what you do in it?

You start the mission by landing as usual only to be greeted by operative that will accompany you (or you escort them) until you extract from the mission, and how to extract from it? it is simple, press the "Follow" on the NPC to follow you to extraction point to end the mission.

Now what do you do here and why you need NPC here?

The NPC will hack into things, unlock locked doors and moves from one point of interest to another and our job is to make sure he is fine and dandy.

Also this mission moves/ progress in linear fashion just like this ( BTW the spawn area is not in here but outside of it and the circle in the middle is the extraction point) :

Spoiler

circle-32_42926_md.gif#ActualImage

Spoiler

Or this maybe?

2115.jpg#ActualImage

You start at one point and you move forward, upon leaving the previous tile it will enter a cool down period to make sure you move forward and you don't have to back track same points over and over again, until you return to the very first tile you started with, DE can you make the tiles huge (long?) to the point it does not feel the same?

What you get from here?

Mods, weapons / frames parts (if DE wants to put them somewhere in future) rare resources (what the planet has to offer), and this for star chart missions, we do get attacked by mini bosses and some times bosses themselves and if we managed to beat them they only retreat only to return stronger as the level of the mission increases ( scale up as time goes on).

In Void mission, you have a chance at getting a prime parts and better rewards than a mere 5 cores.

How this mission proceeds?

As soon you leave the spawn area enemies will take a notice of you and they will turn life support off to get rid of you but you have to survive, once you get to point of interest the NPC will begins his/ her hacking/ extracting of items, until you reach a "milestone" period (set by DE of course) when hit the milestone and you got these 2 conditions down:

The NPC work were uninterrupted )if they get within his zone he will stop working).
The NPC were kept out of harm no matter how hard the enemies have tried (kept them away and he continues his work non stop).

The NPC will grow an affection to you and it will results in small stats buffs that can stack, more successful runs = more affection which means = more buffs.

The buffs are so small you won't notice them but after you manage to stack them you will notice it, upon reaching milestones you get a small 2.5% buffs to :

Health.
Shields.
Power Duration.
Power Efficiency (toggle drain is not included here).
Power Strength.

Companions also get buffs to their health/ shields/ weapon damage.

This will encourage you to keep on going until you can't, also the

For NPC he either spawn with low health that will increase at each milestone or have several thousands of shields and health, this is DE's call.

This NPC will never hold a weapon in coop session but will ask for it if you solo for self protection but the only down side to solo is that the NPC will work slower since he fears for his life he will stop periodically to look around to make sure its safe to work or continue to work.

Do you think it's a good idea to have an NPC do specific type to "looting" search during the mission? like i only looking for keys and only that and he will avoid points that have low rates to drop keys based on the player?

There is a certain boss type i will mention down below once i am finished with other mission types, also that boss have a chance to appears here as well when certain alert begins.

Now then to the current existing Endless missions, but lets start with tiers, this game should have had 5 tiers:

Tier 1 = missions from level 1-10.
Tier 2 = missions from level 10-20.
Tier 3 = missions from level 20-30.
Tier 4 = missions from level 30-40.
Tier 5 is T4 survival/ defense / interception exclusive as these missions need to start from level 50-60-70 since they are the highest missions in the game, they need to start high, not scale from 20 to 70 in 20 minutes (not quite true but you catch my drift)

Ok then, lets start with Defense missions, this mission need to have 4 Tiers in both regular planets mission but 4 Tiers in the void starting from Tier 2 to 5 (BTW i am working around an already existing concept), but why the Tiers are important here?

Well, they are here to dictate how long/ many waves the mission will last and their way are:

Tier 1 mission will last 10 waves only, why? new players have no ways of going higher than that unless a high level players join them and even a high level join them they will still struggle, alot.

Tier 2 mission will last 20 waves only, good enough for them and they might get a nice reward at that rotation, but i believe 20 waves is a bit to much for players that are stuck on planets with Tier 2 defense.

Tier 3 mission, this should go for 30 waves only, because most of player that can come planets with Tier 3 missions should be able handle it.

Tier 4 mission, this should go for 40 waves only, because at wave 40 most of enemies are rather difficult to deal with, with their increase in health / shields/ armor and the damage they do is very high as well, most of the players going here might barely get out of the mission or even reach the limit of the mission which it is 40 waves.

Tier 5 mission should go for 60-120 waves BUT starting wave 65 and onward you get 2 rewards every 5 waves, this double rewards is for Risk Vs. Rewards concept, doing harder mission must reward you in some way and no other way is better than double the rewards you get the moment you decide on continuing the mission to as high waves as possible.

You get a chance to extract every 5 waves though so you are not trapped in this mission (all Tiers), you get to extract after you finish the first 5 waves.

For Survival, DE need to go back to how Survival was at one point of its life, i am talking about count down timer with non stop air consumption, you don't get to increase how much time you have on you but you can only keep the air pods coming by killing enemies and those air stations.

Keep this in mind please, air and time will count down but only air can be recharged!

Tier 1 mission will last 10 minutes only, most of new players will struggle the moment heavy unties will began to roll in, so that's a good limit.

Tier 2 mission will last 20 minutes only.

Tier 3 mission will last 30 minutes only.

Tier 4 mission will only last 40 minutes only.

Tier 5 minutes will be between 60-120 minutes only and here you also get 2 rewards starting 65 minutes and onward.

You get a chance to extract whenever you want starting 5 minutes mark.

Interception mission will also have 5 Tiers.

Tier 1 mission will only be 2 rounds, good for starting players.

Tier 2 mission will only be 4 rounds, should be good enough.

Tier 3 mission will only be 6 rounds, good enough.

Tier 4 mission will only be 8 rounds, pretty good.

Tier 5 mission will be between 12- 20 rounds, but starting round 13 you will get 2 rewards per round.

For bosses and mini bosses, i say these guys should only appear on Tier 3,4 and 5, since most of players who are doing these missions are to an extent capable of handling themselves.

They will appear in this order :

Mini boss # 1, rather weak can be handled by 1 player, it needs to be that way, if all players are struggling from 1 mini boss then there's an issue with the game :/

Mini boss # 2, this guy can be trouble and require a bit help between players on who should tank or face off with that mini boss.

The boss, when he appears all players should focus on him, but to make sure this encounter does not result in mission failure (instant failure), we have to go to where boss actually at, he invite us to him, he doesn't attack us like that but instead he taunts us to go and fight him.

Now onto the boss, this boss is called Corrupted Prime!

What its story? just like how the Void corrupt anything no matter what they are, for example Grineer Butcher unite, the same goes for them :

Spoiler

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Sentient

So, the Void Towers Corrupt the Prime frames and they becomes the protector of the Towers, they appears in Tower missions and in or around Void missions alerts, they have one rule and that is to protect the Tower at all costs and anything from within (anything that is a part of the Tower, like a capture target may get protected by them), anyone trends near the Towers will encounter them and may ultimately die by their hands.

The Corrupted Primes spawn at Tier 3,4 and 5 missions, the higher the Tier the more likely they will spawn in the mission.

Their loadout is completely random and my spawn with frame and weapons that does not match the mission or the frame itself.

Upon defeating them you acquire one prime part of the randomly generated loadout, don't expect anything special or expecting them to bring the parts you are looking for!

Upon defeating them, you get 1 part from the following table :

BP (frame)
BP (primary)
BP (secondary)
BP (Melee)
Stock / Hilt
Receiver / Pouch
Receiver / Pouch
Barrel / Star
Barrel / Star
Blade / Ornament

I say this is a clean drop table, isn't it?

So what about the regular game modes and with their drop table?

How about it drops things that may help new players in their missions and making it acquirable from there is not a bad way to go?

What they get? helpful mods or resources that they can use to craft their next gear! (uncommon or even rare ones)

For some reason i feel like i missed something...

Q & A:

Q : Also alot of you might ask, hey you didnt really add that much to what we already have!!??

A : True, i may not added anything new but i tweaked what already here because alot of the issues in this game can be tweaked to work better, somehow, but in order to have actually fix then DE must overhaul the game from ground up, as in completely destroy everything and build everything, again, and to my knowledge that will most likely will bankrupt them :(

So we better tweak some missions and ad a bit of scaling so those who want to have fun the get the most out of their keys and whats not get a chance at doing that.

Q : But man nobody will go that high, nobody will try to hit the limit if the missions!?!

A : You never know, when you have 1 key left you will want to make the most out of it.

Q : Yea but still, thats stupid and DE is wasting their resources if they followed your ideas!!

A : Well, they do release updates to Conclave, a mode that is not played by around 85% of community and the same goes for Archwing, they released Mobile Defense and Defense for it and to my last knowledge most don't even play those as well, not that much.

Q : But your idea of limited, non endless missions is not good enough, it doesnt fix the broken rewards at all!!

Of course DE can fix it and here is how, you see, Baro is something DE won't let go and that is their choice but he is something DE never took advantage of at all, how you say?

Simple, all Void missions will drop prime parts but these prime are Tier related, Lower Tier will drop more often but higher Tier drops less, here is the table :

Tier 1 = prime parts that can neat you 10-15 ducats.

Tier 2 = prime parts that can neat you 15-25 ducats.

Tier 3 = prime parts that can neat you 50 ducats.

Also lets add some more items to the drop table, shall we:

A boundle of 5x Nitain Extracts ( this also drops from enemies, but only 1 will drop)

25x Fusion Cores ( also may drops from enemies, but only 1)

I really cant remember any worthwhile rewards to add to drop table, sorry for that.

Also guys, remember this very well, no pain no gain.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Prinny13
Came up with a better ideas and ways, hopefully

.Dictator. · April 24, 2016

Or on the flipside, we could make it so enemies don't go from level 1 to level 100 all the way to level 3 billion

Because that's basically an endless mission in a nutshell

Edited April 24, 2016 by DictatorKt07

(PSN)B0XMAN517 · April 24, 2016

The only real problem I have with enemy scaling is getting one shot killed without even knowing what did it. An example that comes to mind is during the shadow debt endurance defense. We were cruising through waves easy peasy until wave 49 ended with mission failure, completely out of nowhere. We even watched the recording and still could not figure out what took Alad v from full health to death (this was with three people guarding a room with one entrance while Alad hid in the corner). That's neither fun nor challenging. What was fun was how more Acolyte shadows came with each increased wave (to the point where they nearly outnumbered the corpus). Higher waves should bring tougher enemies not just same enemies higher numbers. All that said, I don't think us scaling with the enemies is the solution.

MelancholyMadness · April 24, 2016

this game is already based almost entirely around %'s

the entire reason that enemies scaling and our frames NOT scaling, is to increase difficulty with a ramping effect.

Adding scaling to our frames would negate the entire ramp effect.

and be hard to balance because every frame has different base values and intended ability caps.

for example, nekros would break if he was allowed more power strength or duration, so would valkyr and vauban

also weapons, any weapon with high base damage would destroy with this, while low base weapons would fall off right away.

not saying you cant fix that, but its way more complicated that you think. It would require reworks and tweaks on every frame AND weapon.

IMO, what is needed is tweaks to the ENEMY scaling.

Much less work, and much less values to account for (because DE decides their loadouts instead of accounting for our mod loadouts)

Sheilds and Armor need to be reworked the most honestly... just a tiny tweak (because it feels like they are trying to account for us always having counter mods like CP)

and yeah, damage is nuts later on. You get knicked by a breeze and die and have no clue why. We need a downed damage readout...

you were downed by "BS bursa pew pew lazor 70%, nonsense bursa knockdown wave 25%, badluck 5%)

like on the side or by chat, so its not in the way of you shooting things while downed.

Hellmaker2004 · April 24, 2016

We should not scale with the enemies, they scale for a reason. To force use out of the mission, be it by simulate fatigue or however people want it to be in a lore perspective.

What the game need is a "end game" value and be balanced around that, it feels like Sortie was added to offer this yet it is recently implemented. It takes a while to accumulate enough data to use in a constructive way to tweak the game.

DeadlyPeanutt · April 25, 2016

1 hour ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

We should not scale with the enemies, they scale for a reason. To force use out of the mission

lol, lately what forces me out of missions are the utterly pathetic rewards my squad gets :P

jinxeverything · April 25, 2016

10 hours ago, DictatorKt07 said:

Or on the flipside, we could make it so enemies don't go from level 1 to level 100 all the way to level 3 billion

Because that's basically an endless mission in a nutshell

I seen old videos of WF and T4 enemies started at level 70-ish!!! why DE changed that to level 20-ish i will never understand?

10 hours ago, (PS4)B0XMAN517 said:

The only real problem I have with enemy scaling is getting one shot killed without even knowing what did it. An example that comes to mind is during the shadow debt endurance defense. We were cruising through waves easy peasy until wave 49 ended with mission failure, completely out of nowhere. We even watched the recording and still could not figure out what took Alad v from full health to death (this was with three people guarding a room with one entrance while Alad hid in the corner). That's neither fun nor challenging. What was fun was how more Acolyte shadows came with each increased wave (to the point where they nearly outnumbered the corpus).

I am talking about regular game modes not Event which DE will tweak the enemies to see how OP we are and how to push ourselves to finish the mission just like in 1k Cuts event, that last mission O_o

Anyway, i feel your pain my clan couldn't get the gold trophy as well, most of the clan were busy with school and collage :/

Also i would like to try this event again, with scaling up and keeping with enemies through increase is duration, effici and strength, i want to see how we will manage with 50 energy yet it gets better effici-wise due to increase in effici :D

10 hours ago, (PS4)B0XMAN517 said:

Higher waves should bring tougher enemies not just same enemies higher numbers. All that said, I don't think us scaling with the enemies is the solution.

Fixing the scaling in this game is difficult with how Damage 2.0 works, the only thing DE can do now is tweak numbers (us and enemies) otherwise a complete overhaul is needed here, the best they can do now is allow us to scale up as well :(

7 hours ago, MelancholyMadness said:

Adding scaling to our frames would negate the entire ramp effect.

Then we restrict it to "positive" builds only as in, if your duration is 100% and above your frame will gain an increase but if its below 100% it will gain nothing?

7 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

We should not scale with the enemies, they scale for a reason. To force use out of the mission, be it by simulate fatigue or however people want it to be in a lore perspective.

That's the current problem with endless missions, unless you bring cheese builds to these missions you have no other choice but to leave but what if, what if we can bring our own unique builds to see how far we can go!!!!

The way its now is just a chore, bring this weapon because reasons and bring that frame because reasons, no thanks i want to have fun and right now its not fun its pain :'(

7 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

What the game need is a "end game" value and be balanced around that, it feels like Sortie was added to offer this yet it is recently implemented. It takes a while to accumulate enough data to use in a constructive way to tweak the game.

I am not suggesting to make endless missions into end game content but to fix the scaling issue and no Sortie is bad from reward table to enemies "feel" to some conditions :(

Last night we brought Blind Mirage to all 3 missions, why? enemies were simply unfair to fight with, we had to cheese it, hek i used Bullet Attractor on Vay Hek to kill him since he moves alot and the "window" to shoot him through were......little (?)

6 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

lol, lately what forces me out of missions are the utterly pathetic rewards my squad gets :P

The longer we stay in mission the higher the chances to acquire rare rewards?

How about every time the game "ticks" the uncommon/ rare rewards increase in its chances to drop by certain %?

jinxeverything · April 25, 2016

8 hours ago, MelancholyMadness said:

the entire reason that enemies scaling and our frames NOT scaling, is to increase difficulty with a ramping effect.

My scaling idea is to scale but slowly is a way that we can fight back but not right away, we are still crawling!

Also am not taking about wave 20 defense i am talking about wave 120 here, think how enemies are when you hit that wave and IF we scaled up how much duration/ power (frame and weapons) we will have?

We will give enemies trouble but we will not 1 shot them.

MelancholyMadness · April 25, 2016

ok, the point is we aren't supposed to go to wave 120 or stay for 20 hours

thats WHY it ramps... it adds risk so you need to ask yourself if you want to stay and risk losing everything you gained so far.

i'm really confused why you want to change this.

jinxeverything · April 25, 2016

53 minutes ago, MelancholyMadness said:

ok, the point is we aren't supposed to go to wave 120 or stay for 20 hours

Then DE should rework the "endless" missions and give them an "ending" point, like a boss at the end?

54 minutes ago, MelancholyMadness said:

thats WHY it ramps... it adds risk so you need to ask yourself if you want to stay and risk losing everything you gained so far.

We have to take risks, this is a Risk Vs. Reward game and its missions were designed that way, but DE did a poor job at scaling and forces us to power creep WHICH DE themselves and many of us thinks of it as a serious problem, less power creep is better and our scaling along side enemies will help to an extent.

57 minutes ago, MelancholyMadness said:

i'm really confused why you want to change this.

Love this game, been playing it non stop and i want to see it improve and become better that's why i proposed this idea!

If DE would stop cramping good rewards in these type of missions i won't really bother/ care/ cry about them.

Also i don't want to go with Meta builds for anything and at this moment you really have no choice on how to build you gears other than "follow" if you want to "survive", am i wrong?

If DE fixed these issues i would be playing the game instead of being here posting reworks or ideas on how to make something better, won't i? :)

Necrius · April 25, 2016

I think enemy scaling must stop somewhere in endless missions - rewards don't scale after all.

MelancholyMadness · April 25, 2016

yeah but forcing you to leave is a kind of gating mechanism.

it forces you to use another key, which you only have a finite amount of.

if you stayed forever, it would destroy the entire key mechanic of the game...

so if you want this rework, keys are now completely worthless...

(because 1 key would let a party of 4 stay for like 4 hours and farm forever)

MelancholyMadness · April 25, 2016

on another note, having some sort of EVENT happen if you stay too long,

like having assassins or gatekeeper type enemies (that have a gimmick or maybe are even unkillable) chase you around would be fun.

or being able to break into a boss room after a certain amount of time (like 20 rounds+) and beating boss ended it with bonuses

or the amount of rounds you went increased boss strength AND boss drops (or maybe each round adds a buff to boss, like damage reduction or ignoring CC)

see now, THAT would be fun.

cuz i could say, lets do t4 survival and try for the 60 minute gatekeepers to show up and try for their loot.

or lets do t4 defense, and at wave 40, open boss door and he'll have 8 buffs to deal with and 8 bonus drops

.... DE, make this happen

i'll brainstorm it for you

(PSN)WINDMILEYNO · April 25, 2016

What is the point of Endless missions?

For me, it's fun.

Rewards? What rewards?

A lot of people advocate for anything that will "Force" tenno out of a mission. With the way Warframe is, based off of loot and such, that's not particularly wrong, since the game "Rewards" you based on how long you can stay (that's pretty funny to say out loud).

But because it is rewards based, a lot of players will do anything and everything to stay as long as possible, not for the fun, but for the loot, and then brag about the 8 hour survival they did on YouTube (this is why we can't have nice things, again).

If endless missions were just for fun, it wouldn't be an issue to kick/ force us out, that would just be vindictive on other players parts for wanting that.

Saying we have to forced out of an endless mission in Warframe just because is like saying I can't go to a planet in Destiny and sit there for eight hours doing the same redundant drop missions. I absolutely can if I feel like wasting my life that way.

So....do you want tenno to scale up with enemies so that we can compete for fun? Or to stay to get for more rewards?

(PSN)WINDMILEYNO · April 25, 2016

2 hours ago, MelancholyMadness said:

on another note, having some sort of EVENT happen if you stay too long,

like having assassins or gatekeeper type enemies (that have a gimmick or maybe are even unkillable) chase you around would be fun.

or being able to break into a boss room after a certain amount of time (like 20 rounds+) and beating boss ended it with bonuses

or the amount of rounds you went increased boss strength AND boss drops (or maybe each round adds a buff to boss, like damage reduction or ignoring CC)

see now, THAT would be fun.

cuz i could say, lets do t4 survival and try for the 60 minute gatekeepers to show up and try for their loot.

or lets do t4 defense, and at wave 40, open boss door and he'll have 8 buffs to deal with and 8 bonus drops

.... DE, make this happen

i'll brainstorm it for you

This is irrelevant, but imagine an infested corpus tech who looks like pyramid head....I'm just going to leave that there.

Urlan · April 25, 2016

You say fun and I say tedious and unrewarding. To each their own, at least someone enjoys enemies getting boosts that make this super soldier at least feel less than super. Unlimited scaling is a bad mechanic for balance and always has been. Balance can not be had while one side obeys different rules than the other; it holds true for board games and holds true for video games as well. Competition is also not fun for me, there can be amusement in the journey but realizing that doing the best you can and having that undone by people doing exploits, glitches, or trying to meta game the system just makes it an exercise in patience rather than skill. A good example for the kind of responses to unless scaling here is Mass Effect 3's co-op multiplayer. ME3 had that shield gating, silly enemies that didn't follow the same rules as players, and silly exploits just to get on a leader board. There was fun to be had playing that mode with friends and railing against the unfairness of it and still winning without infinite rockets, or what EA even said they wanted, you to pay for the rockets they wanted you to use. That said - actually playing the mode wasn't fun. It wasn't designed to be, it was designed to be a grindy gamble on getting something useful same as many free to plays - in ME3's case - you paid for the privilege.

(PSN)WINDMILEYNO · April 25, 2016

2 hours ago, Urlan said:

You say fun and I say tedious and unrewarding. To each their own, at least someone enjoys enemies getting boosts that make this super soldier at least feel less than super. Unlimited scaling is a bad mechanic for balance and always has been. Balance can not be had while one side obeys different rules than the other; it holds true for board games and holds true for video games as well. Competition is also not fun for me, there can be amusement in the journey but realizing that doing the best you can and having that undone by people doing exploits, glitches, or trying to meta game the system just makes it an exercise in patience rather than skill. A good example for the kind of responses to unless scaling here is Mass Effect 3's co-op multiplayer. ME3 had that shield gating, silly enemies that didn't follow the same rules as players, and silly exploits just to get on a leader board. There was fun to be had playing that mode with friends and railing against the unfairness of it and still winning without infinite rockets, or what EA even said they wanted, you to pay for the rockets they wanted you to use. That said - actually playing the mode wasn't fun. It wasn't designed to be, it was designed to be a grindy gamble on getting something useful same as many free to plays - in ME3's case - you paid for the privilege.

Endless missions without a focus on a reward system and without broken infinite scaling on enemies...I would like this.

Its really just tedious and boring when you are looking for a specific reward, and keep getting common trash rewards.

My question was : We are advocating for tenno to scale up with enemies to compete with the enemies....in order to stay longer for more rewards, or to stay for fun? Because us scaling would result in us being able to stay longer, at the end of the day, that's the outcome.

jinxeverything · April 25, 2016

9 hours ago, MelancholyMadness said:

yeah but forcing you to leave is a kind of gating mechanism.

it forces you to use another key, which you only have a finite amount of.

if you stayed forever, it would destroy the entire key mechanic of the game...

so if you want this rework, keys are now completely worthless...

(because 1 key would let a party of 4 stay for like 4 hours and farm forever)

This game have DRM in it so no you can't stay forever in it, you have to extract at one point no matter what.

Also after Star Chart 3.0, you will want to stay "forever" since most of the Tower missions will show up as alert, if that how it is.

9 hours ago, MelancholyMadness said:

on another note, having some sort of EVENT happen if you stay too long,

like having assassins or gatekeeper type enemies (that have a gimmick or maybe are even unkillable) chase you around would be fun.

or being able to break into a boss room after a certain amount of time (like 20 rounds+) and beating boss ended it with bonuses

or the amount of rounds you went increased boss strength AND boss drops (or maybe each round adds a buff to boss, like damage reduction or ignoring CC)

see now, THAT would be fun.

cuz i could say, lets do t4 survival and try for the 60 minute gatekeepers to show up and try for their loot.

or lets do t4 defense, and at wave 40, open boss door and he'll have 8 buffs to deal with and 8 bonus drops

.... DE, make this happen

i'll brainstorm it for you

You are asking for a boss that we can not kill unless we run the mission with a meta gear/ cheese? (like how we have to bring irrelevant elements just to counter Shadow Stalker adaption to damage thing or to pass by their increase in shields/ armor/ health)

Gets buffs as time goes? THIS IS HOW SCALING WORKS IN THIS GAME MATE, everything gets stronger as time goes on, as waves goes on, you are not adding anything new here but asking for more tedious things, see the current Bursa-chan.

As for enemy we can't kill AKA GateKeeper? leave them out of endless missions (Survival, Defense and Interception) and stick them in Sabotage or Deception, these missions needs something refreshing that CAN happen, like a boss that randomly show up and when we do manage to kill it, it drops nice loot, i may to go these missions more often, i only do these missions when i see alert with a reward i need/ want :D

If DE rework Defense, Survival and Interception mission to be like most of the alerts, like how you go into alert and have to do Defense for 15 waves instead of going from 1 to infinite, 15 minutes Survival and 4 rounds of Interception now that would be great. ( saw that, reward for work, endure to get paid)