Better Forma System - Remove Downsides

[(PSN)BlitzKeir 1,138]

The suggestion Steve made on the devstream (raise minimum rank to your MR) is good. But while this may alleviate some grinding, I think there's a bigger problem with forma.

Spoiler

This is my slow Nova build.

Spoiler

This is my fast Nova build.

Notice the polarities. I don't have the capacity to add an exilus mod to my fast Nova, and adding another polarity would lock me out of any possible changes to the build. I'd have to remove polarities, and probably add new ones as well. I've lost the freedom to experiment. Many are concerned about frame powers, mod values and weapon stats changing, as well as new mods being released, thus forcing min/maxers like myself to re-polarize slots. One forma becomes three forma. Considering you can only craft one forma per day, even with the minimum rank idea, making a build represents a considerable investment, and you may find your efforts have worked against you. That's a distressing feeling. (Sidenote: It irks me when people equate Draco to mastery farming. It's the best leveling node. Anyone who thinks Draco farming is uncool has never made a four forma build. I'm very happy to hear other missions are being raised up to that level, but goddamn do cliques bug me.)

I propose a solution that fixes ALL of these problems, takes build freedom to the next level, and makes forma a much more desirable resource, rather than something you grit your teeth and bear.

Instead of changing what forma does, change what it means for a slot to be polarized. A slot with an assigned polarity, whether innate or added through forma, can be changed to any polarity freely in the same submenu where you change the positions of polarized slots. There is no cost associated with this. Once a slot is forma'd, you can change that slot's polarity as often as you want.

There's still a problem, though. The issue with my two Nova builds remains. So let's take it a step further, and say that the polarity setup is specific to each of the three loadouts: A, B, and C. From what DE has said, loadouts seem to put strain on the servers. It may be worth looking into storing loadouts locally, and simply checking with the server when a loadout is modified/equipped.

This change would bring a whole new level of creaitivity to WF. Forma would be something you're excited to use, and actively want more of. In some cases, it'd be even better than getting a potato.

What are your thoughts on this, DE?

Edited May 1, 2016 by (PS4)BlitzKeir

[AandOE 1,203]

Omni polarity is a great idea every time I see it brought up. Especially since I'd like to have another Trinity Prime built for builds outside of the three I have set up for her right now. Aside from that, the proposed Forma change means that when we finally get to MR30, we won't have to re-level anything anymore. :3

[hazerddex 2,432]

the real problem i see from your builds is that de needs to make an augment mod slot for warframes already

and constitution and armored agility should be place able in the mobility slot 

Edited May 1, 2016 by hazerddex

[Wolfnrun 1,242]

12 hours ago, hazerddex said:

the real problem i see from your builds is that de needs to make an augment mod slot for warframes already

and constitution and armored agility should be place able in the mobility slot 

Augment slot! Would be perfect! 

[(PSN)BlitzKeir 1,138]

23 hours ago, hazerddex said:

the real problem i see from your builds is that de needs to make an augment mod slot for warframes already

and constitution and armored agility should be place able in the mobility slot 

I agree that a dedicated augment slot would be very helpful. As is, you're shafting your build by adding more than one augment. Some abilities require an augment to not suck, such as Null Star. I dislike not having access to a full kit, makes the game feel boring and spammy.

[fatpig84 9,006]

Ultimately DE will end up returning the 10 slots they took from us.
Previously we had 10 mod slots. Then we had 8.

Now we have 9 due to Exilus. 
And just 1 more for Aug slots.

[Gurpgork 2,556]

10 hours ago, fatpig84 said:

Previously we had 10 mod slots. 

We only had 10 mod slots if you ran your Warframe with no abilities. If you wanted all four abilities, you only had 6 slots. 

The new system is better because we can have all four abilities and still have 8 mod slots, and we don't need to forma our frames twice to accomplish that. 

[(PSN)MrNishi 1,605]

10 hours ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

I agree that a dedicated augment slot would be very helpful. As is, you're shafting your build by adding more than one augment. Some abilities require an augment to not suck, such as Null Star. I dislike not having access to a full kit, makes the game feel boring and spammy.

Personally, I wish Augments were 'augmenting' Abilities via slotted Ability Tab and as such changing description and modified scaling stats in Abilities UI tab. (Just weird you can slot Augments for an ability that is not yet unlocked and why would an Augment not scale at the same Rank/level as the actual ability?)

In your above builds: You could add a Dash Polarity for Stretch in slow build and Constituion in fast build. Then you could Polarize Exilus to a V to have Cunning Drift on both builds. (Not ideal but it would just fit both builds)

[Baskakov_Dima 45]

I have an improvement to your suggestions.

A "Formaed" slot must be a slot of new polarity type, which accepts any kind of polarity just as if it would fit it. So you can freely forma everything and get as many build designs as possible. 

[RealPandemonium 7,225]

Perhaps make 1 polarization act as it does now, but polarizing the same slot a second time lets you switch whenever you want in the future.  

[Wolfnrun 1,242]

17 hours ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

I agree that a dedicated augment slot would be very helpful. As is, you're shafting your build by adding more than one augment. Some abilities require an augment to not suck, such as Null Star. I dislike not having access to a full kit, makes the game feel boring and spammy.

That a very true statement, and I agree with you  

[Wolfnrun 1,242]

Maybe an augment slot that does not consume nor increase drain???

[(PSN)BlitzKeir 1,138]

7 hours ago, Baskakov_Dima said:

I have an improvement to your suggestions.

A "Formaed" slot must be a slot of new polarity type, which accepts any kind of polarity just as if it would fit it. So you can freely forma everything and get as many build designs as possible. 

My issue with this would be that the polarities are tied into the lore. I like the way it's weaved throughout the Focus system and the new star chart. Gives the backstory a feeling of presence. I don't think DE will seriously consider any suggestions that remove the existing polarities. My suggestion is a nice compromise that gives us what we need without affecting game balance, and lets them preserve their world.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir 1,138]

9 hours ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

Personally, I wish Augments were 'augmenting' Abilities via slotted Ability Tab and as such changing description and modified scaling stats in Abilities UI tab. (Just weird you can slot Augments for an ability that is not yet unlocked and why would an Augment not scale at the same Rank/level as the actual ability?)

In your above builds: You could add a Dash Polarity for Stretch in slow build and Constituion in fast build. Then you could Polarize Exilus to a V to have Cunning Drift on both builds. (Not ideal but it would just fit both builds)

This is true, and I considered it when designing these builds. However, I would permanently lock myself into those two builds. I have a third build that I use less frequently during high-level survival, with negative duration and high strength. It allows me to slow a group of enemies without ruining the squad's kill density and reducing our mini capsule drops. It's also great for AMD spamming, since I can afford high strength/efficiency. Adding anymore polarities would make that particular build impossible.

Fun fact: you can make a Nova with a slowing AND hastening MP by equipping Overextended, Intensify and Energy Conversion. Just don't bring Carrier if you do that, because it'll be hard to control MP's strength.

20 hours ago, fatpig84 said:

Ultimately DE will end up returning the 10 slots they took from us.
Previously we had 10 mod slots. Then we had 8.

Now we have 9 due to Exilus. 
And just 1 more for Aug slots.

Unless I'm misremembering, we had 8 slots in vanilla, excluding auras. The other two were added as the game expanded, and then removed when abilities became built-in.

If DE wants to be mean about it, they could add an augment slot with no default Zenurik polarity; or worse, Unairu.

[Mandolin53 36]

In regards to your build I think you just need to change it, I can fit on both my slow and fast builds (4 forma) without any problem and my build compared to this one has more survivability, 30% less duration, 5% more efficiency, neutral range and ALOT more strength. Thats for slow but I can still fit on everything I need for my speed build easily.Also since I use redirection AND vitality on both builds if I want an augment I can just take redirection off. And if I wanted to I can do a neutral build as well. Sometimes you just need to completely ditch a build and start from scratch. I did it once for Vauban and now I love playing with him whereas with my old build (which was COMPLETELY wrong) I hated playing as him.

Now in regards to your augment slot that would be awesome because I have so many builds where I have an augment or sometimes even 2 but I want to also increase another aspect of the frame but I cant. This would allow for that and furthermore it would increase the diversification between builds. For people that already have everything they need on their frame they could even stick on QoL mods that never get used such as fortitude or dying will or even just another survivability mod, or even another augment. The possibilities are quite extensive.

[hazerddex 2,432]

On 5/2/2016 at 11:34 PM, fatpig84 said:

Ultimately DE will end up returning the 10 slots they took from us.
Previously we had 10 mod slots. Then we had 8.

Now we have 9 due to Exilus. 
And just 1 more for Aug slots.

ya i never understood why tehy took the 10 mod slots away true we dont have to add powers to the mod slot any more but now we have augment mods those are pretty much like adding powers to mod slots 

[(PSN)BlitzKeir 1,138]

5 hours ago, Death_The_Kid04 said:

In regards to your build I think you just need to change it, I can fit on both my slow and fast builds (4 forma) without any problem and my build compared to this one has more survivability, 30% less duration, 5% more efficiency, neutral range and ALOT more strength. Thats for slow but I can still fit on everything I need for my speed build easily.Also since I use redirection AND vitality on both builds if I want an augment I can just take redirection off. And if I wanted to I can do a neutral build as well. Sometimes you just need to completely ditch a build and start from scratch. I did it once for Vauban and now I love playing with him whereas with my old build (which was COMPLETELY wrong) I hated playing as him.

Now in regards to your augment slot that would be awesome because I have so many builds where I have an augment or sometimes even 2 but I want to also increase another aspect of the frame but I cant. This would allow for that and furthermore it would increase the diversification between builds. For people that already have everything they need on their frame they could even stick on QoL mods that never get used such as fortitude or dying will or even just another survivability mod, or even another augment. The possibilities are quite extensive.

The reason I use Stretch on my slow Nova is partly because the explosion range of AMD and the absorption range of its aug are affected by range (I use it as a shield rather than a nuke), and partly because I can't fit anything else without changing a polarity and redesigning the whole thing. (Sidenote: I usually bring Carrier, so my effective strength is closer to 180% most of the time thanks to Energy Conversion, at no efficiency cost.)

This is my issue. I keep forma on a 24hr crafting rotation, and I am always low. If I were to redesign my Nova, it would take a few days, and in the meantime I wouldn't be able to use her effectively. I just don't like that forma has diminishing returns on the options it gives you. My proposal would change that, and open up a lot more possibilities for players to find their comfort zone.

The augment slot was someone else's idea, though. I just proposed the change to how polarities work.

[(PSN)Crimson_Judgment 352]

7 hours ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

My issue with this would be that the polarities are tied into the lore. I like the way it's weaved throughout the Focus system and the new star chart. Gives the backstory a feeling of presence. I don't think DE will seriously consider any suggestions that remove the existing polarities. My suggestion is a nice compromise that gives us what we need without affecting game balance, and lets them preserve their world.

They can preserve their world when they give us a solid timeline for Anything Alad V related and when any of the bosses actually stay dead when we assassinate them

[CY13ERPUNK 6,261]

havent read the entire thread, but in case yall havent heard, the current proposed change to forma-ing gear is to have the rank reset be gated by your mastery rank

ie if u are MR 4, after you rank for example a weapon upto 30, then want to forma it, it would reset down to rank 4 instead of rank 1, and of course if you were MR 20 then forma-ing some gear would mean that you could really get right back into the thick of things fairly quickly

imho it really sounds like a fair compromise and doesnt require a complete overhaul of the forma-system/concept [ie no programing for multiple polarities per slot, etc]

[(PSN)BlitzKeir 1,138]

18 minutes ago, CY13ERPUNK said:

havent read the entire thread, but in case yall havent heard, the current proposed change to forma-ing gear is to have the rank reset be gated by your mastery rank

ie if u are MR 4, after you rank for example a weapon upto 30, then want to forma it, it would reset down to rank 4 instead of rank 1, and of course if you were MR 20 then forma-ing some gear would mean that you could really get right back into the thick of things fairly quickly

imho it really sounds like a fair compromise and doesnt require a complete overhaul of the forma-system/concept [ie no programing for multiple polarities per slot, etc]

I mentioned that in the first sentence of my opening post. >.>

Either way, ease of leveling is not what my proposal is meant to address. It's meant to allow radically different polarities between loadout configurations to accommodate multiple builds, which is currently only possible if you own multiple copies of a frame. It also prevents you from wasting forma and precious resources if you decide a configuration doesn't suit you, or simply isn't optimal. It also eliminates forma anxiety for new players, and makes forma a more precious resource since you have every reason to forma your gear right away and no reason not to.

[-VV-Phantom-Phoenix 226]

13 hours ago, Death_The_Kid04 said:

In regards to your build I think you just need to change it, I can fit on both my slow and fast builds (4 forma) without any problem and my build compared to this one has more survivability, 30% less duration, 5% more efficiency, neutral range and ALOT more strength. Thats for slow but I can still fit on everything I need for my speed build easily.Also since I use redirection AND vitality on both builds if I want an augment I can just take redirection off. And if I wanted to I can do a neutral build as well. Sometimes you just need to completely ditch a build and start from scratch. I did it once for Vauban and now I love playing with him whereas with my old build (which was COMPLETELY wrong) I hated playing as him.

Now in regards to your augment slot that would be awesome because I have so many builds where I have an augment or sometimes even 2 but I want to also increase another aspect of the frame but I cant. This would allow for that and furthermore it would increase the diversification between builds. For people that already have everything they need on their frame they could even stick on QoL mods that never get used such as fortitude or dying will or even just another survivability mod, or even another augment. The possibilities are quite extensive.

At 30% less duration i died on the inside Q_Q

[-VV-Phantom-Phoenix 226]

8 hours ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

The reason I use Stretch on my slow Nova is partly because the explosion range of AMD and the absorption range of its aug are affected by range (I use it as a shield rather than a nuke), and partly because I can't fit anything else without changing a polarity and redesigning the whole thing. (Sidenote: I usually bring Carrier, so my effective strength is closer to 180% most of the time thanks to Energy Conversion, at no efficiency cost.)

This is my issue. I keep forma on a 24hr crafting rotation, and I am always low. If I were to redesign my Nova, it would take a few days, and in the meantime I wouldn't be able to use her effectively. I just don't like that forma has diminishing returns on the options it gives you. My proposal would change that, and open up a lot more possibilities for players to find their comfort zone.

The augment slot was someone else's idea, though. I just proposed the change to how polarities work.

I hope you realize that slova only needs 145% power strenght to get maximum slow

[-N7-Leonhart 3,362]

This idea is meaningless since it removes the concept of polarity. 

What point is there to different polarities on mods, if a forma can halve the cost of every mod, no matter which? They should just change it to a single symbol on all mods and slots and be done with it, that is basically what you are suggesting.

Edited May 6, 2016 by -BM-Leonhart

[TheLexiConArtist 4,948]

Oh, I missed this one.

My concept for solving this aspect of the Forma Problem.

Another player's alternative + more discussion on the two.

More, more and doubtless yet more I don't have links for.

 

Noting this thread down for inclusion in my every-devstream-post mentions until we get something addressed to it. I care less about relevelling Forma gear and more about this aspect, personally.

Edited May 6, 2016 by EDYinnit

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter 1,106]

You get my up vote. We have 3 loadouts, but many builds aren't diverse enough because of the limitations forma give us. I don't mind grinding. But a lot of times I'm not even sure what polarity I want to go for to maximize my frames potential. This goes double for new players that may not know how forma works exactly and just pick a symbol not realizing that it's not the best thing they could have done. I propose multiple people bring this up in the next devstream. This is a great idea that would help existing players and new players, and would help ease the confusion of the forma system.