Please DO NOT allow new players into sorties!

[Tenno29543]

On 5/9/2016 at 0:06 PM, Sardekar said:

Just a different perspective to add.  I'm MR 8, and have had higher MR players chastise me for not doing sorties yet, because they claim they're easy and I'm behind the curve by not having done a bunch by now.  I've personally avoided them because from what I've read, I felt like I might not be able to contribute much, and didn't want to be carried.  I was told I was basically being a moron.

It seems like there's as many opinions on this topic as there are players, so don't assume you're speaking for all high MR players or all low MR players on this subject.  

Perhaps I'll do a sortie someday, but with the mixed attitudes of higher MR players(I'm either an idiot for not doing a sortie at low MR, or a leech for doing them..) I have little interest anymore.

in the end, if it's there, people are going to play content the way they want, when they want, regardless.  I actually care if I'm being useful, but I don't know if that's as common as I'd like to think it is.

There are a lot of ways to not do dmg and make people happy. Example: u can just limbo the hostage for ur team in defense and just look at ur timer and make sure that the hostage and ur self isn't exposed to the foes. for execav you can just kill the carriers for cells while other guys defend, just don't die. rescue and spy u can do solo and a convert dagger will be a good weapon in those as long as you're stealth. Tho in game modes such as sur and ext, its harder to come up with ways to not dmg and make ur team happy other then to build a ev trin

[Shockwave-]

On 5/4/2016 at 9:16 PM, CrimsonDalekanium said:

I partly disagree with this whole thread. I have been playing sorties since probably MR 6, and while I was undoubtedly carried through some of them in the beginning, I made it a point to bring only my best gear at the time.I do absolutely think that players should NOT be able to join a sortie with any starter weapons. However, with a few exceptions, if you cannot handle a MR 8 or below player running around on most* of the first 2 sortie missions like a headless chicken, maybe you are the one who isn't good enough. If they die, you do not NEED to revive them. Is it nice of you? Yes. Is it necessary? No. I worked my &#! off to collect first every frame that is a near requirement for a specific sortie (Mag, Valkyr, Trinity, Vauban, Loki, Frost), and then every frame in general. Most sorties can be done solo, and nearly every* sortie can be done with 2 coordinated players and 2 noobs. BUT, with all of this said, I do think that the reqs should be bumped up to MR 7 with no starter weapons on your loadout. The people saying that you cannot (and should not be allowed to) do sorties until mastery rank 15 are talking out of their &#!. If you have completed the second dream, you can probably handle sorties after a little (or a lot) of trial and error.

*The exceptions to this are Spy, Excavation, Rescue, and Rad procs, where the player can directly harm you.

And there is always the option of non-public matches.

I would agree with your argument if the following was put into practice:

1) if you die, you MUST re-spawn in 10 seconds (forced).

2) If you run out of revives YOU fail the sortie (not your team, but you don't get credit and have to redo it).

 

The problem isn't that the other players don't need to revive a low player or that they can't handle it, it's that the low player can enter the sortie, promptly die, and walk away from their keyboard leaving themselves dead  and get full credit. They don't even have to revive once. Now others have to either abort and redo (several minutes/waves in) or carry them.

Even with an idle timer one could stay dead with 1 revive until the end, revive and run around a bit.

Sorties should force you to be alive all the time, and fail if you run out of revives. I would love that system. I'd also like to see the revive limit reduced to 2 on sorties (since the who reason was for new players who were buying revives), teams should need to raise each other ( and thus be raised in return) to complete a sortie. fi someone isn't carrying their weight and people stop reviving them, they will lose the sortie.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Shockwave-

[Shockwave-]

On 5/8/2016 at 3:56 PM, CrimsonDalekanium said:

Here's an idea: Let players put a minimum/maximum MR requirement as a secondary group setting. So you can have your matchmaking set to public/friends/invite/solo, and set to Play with players with a MR that is higher than X and lower than Y. This way, you could lock out most noob players from your games and (if you want a challenge) high mastery ranks. This setting is applied if you are the host, and if you are looking to join a game. It is overruled if you are directly invited to a person's game and accept.

This shoudl be easy to code in the matchmaking. I believe they already have a minimum ping setup in the matchmaking so you don't match to slow squads. Then you could set your MR to a level you like and you won't join games with low MR requirements and low MRs can't join yours. Seems like a win/win solution.

[Kahme]

If you change "new players" in the subject to something like "race", "religion", "gender" etc, you will get the perfect storm. But it isn't one of those listed, so it's okay for people to discriminate against new players.

[Shockwave-]

2 hours ago, Kahme said:

If you change "new players" in the subject to something like "race", "religion", "gender" etc, you will get the perfect storm. But it isn't one of those listed, so it's okay for people to discriminate against new players.

that's ridiculous. When the NFL cuts a player because they are not any good are they discriminating? if they said they were cutting a player due to their race, religion or gender people would be mad too, but that's apples and oranges.

 

New players are more likely to be worse players.

[Tenno29543]

5 hours ago, Kahme said:

If you change "new players" in the subject to something like "race", "religion", "gender" etc, you will get the perfect storm. But it isn't one of those listed, so it's okay for people to discriminate against new players.

Its not discrimination, its protection. You don't learn to run before you walk and having new players doing end game content is like having a undergraduate surgeon perform a real surgery.

people discriminate against race, sex and religion etc SPECIFICALLY thinks that people of a kind of sex, religion and race can not perform a task properly such as participating in elections, HOWEVER, it is a FACT that majority of the low level players can not do a end game mission properly.

[Kahme]

4 hours ago, Shockwave- said:

that's ridiculous. When the NFL cuts a player because they are not any good are they discriminating?

New players are more likely to be worse players.

Calm down and read what you wrote.

[Kahme]

5 hours ago, BigBlackCook said:

Its not discrimination, its protection. You don't learn to run before you walk and having new players doing end game content is like having a undergraduate surgeon perform a real surgery.

people discriminate against race, sex and religion etc SPECIFICALLY thinks that people of a kind of sex, religion and race can not perform a task properly such as participating in elections, HOWEVER, it is a FACT that majority of the low level players can not do a end game mission properly.

Protection from what? Dying? Failing the mission? Being banned for causing anxiety to other players in PUG?

As for surgery, undergraduates can practice simulation, that is like the real thing but not real. How do expect them to learn otherwise? Sorties is like that simulator, you don't DIE in a simulator, you merely fail. Also if you do not allow new surgeons to participate and learn, you'll run out of surgeons very soon.

I don't need you to put the FACT that LOW LEVEL players cannot do end game mission properly. How are they suppose to do it in the first place since they are LOW LEVEL? Speaking of which, we were talking about NEW players or LOW LEVEL players? And I don't mean MR, since MR does not accurately measure skill level. Or that MR21 can bring a R10 WF.

Discrimination, please allow me to give you an example of discrimination that we have here. "Race X sucks at maths, fact is majority of the race does fail maths academically, hence they should not be allowed to do any work that requires calculation." We do have laws against racial discrimination, however as long as nobody openly declares, HR managers can get away with anything.

It doesn't matter if race X has a few that score top in mathematics on a national scale. Doesn't matter, because it is a FACT majority fails mathematics.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Kahme

[-Temp0-]

17 hours ago, BigBlackCook said:

Its not discrimination, its protection. You don't learn to run before you walk and having new players doing end game content is like having a undergraduate surgeon perform a real surgery.

So pretentious I can't even. Also learn the difference between "low mr players" and "new players" because it's not necessarily the same thing.

[MagPrime]

17 hours ago, BigBlackCook said:

Its not discrimination, its protection. You don't learn to run before you walk and having new players doing end game content is like having a undergraduate surgeon perform a real surgery.

people discriminate against race, sex and religion etc SPECIFICALLY thinks that people of a kind of sex, religion and race can not perform a task properly such as participating in elections, HOWEVER, it is a FACT that majority of the low level players can not do a end game mission properly.

Where is this "fact" located?  I'd like a link to where it has such facts.  And discrimination is not limited to race, religion or sex.  

Also, MAJOR difference between surgery, with the potential from light scaring to death, is a bad comparison to running missions in a video game. 

[MakTheEater]

But low MR know what they are doing, so we should let them do sortie.

EDIT: I don't know why I have hidden my name, but nevermind.

Edited May 13, 2016 by MakTheEater

[Shockwave-]

On 5/12/2016 at 4:31 AM, Kahme said:

Calm down and read what you wrote.

I did, i read it just fine, your response adds nothing

 

[Shockwave-]

21 hours ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

So pretentious I can't even. Also learn the difference between "low mr players" and "new players" because it's not necessarily the same thing.

Doesn't matter.

MOST low MR players are new players. MOST new players aren't as skilled as verteran players.

Are there exceptions? Yes. Is it anyone's job to ferret out those exceptions, no.

It is quite true to say that if you play with a low MR player you have a much higher chance of playing with a low skill player than if you play with a high MR player. Frankly that truth is all the justification someone needs. They don't want to take the risk, they want to increase their chance of playing with better players and they are within their rights to do just that.

I've never seen a MR 21 kill a synthesis target and go "what is sythesis, am i not supposed to kill it?"  I have seen Low level MRs do this.

I never seen an MR 21 say "Why do i need a Glaive to do bless on LOR? When the bad guys hurt me I'll bless." I have seen an Low MR player say exactly this.

With MR generally comes a basic understanding of the game. There are always exceptions, but in general this is true.

This is not discrimination, any more someone hiring only college graduates is. It is setting a criteria for oneself. Could someone who didn't go to college be just as good? sure. Is it more likely that college graduates are more skilled, yes. Is it the companies job to take the time to find out? nope.

If you are skilled, raise your MR... then you will be treated as if you are as skilled as you are.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Shockwave-

[Shockwave-]

6 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

  

 

Edited May 13, 2016 by Shockwave-

[-Temp0-]

1 minute ago, Shockwave- said:

Doesn't matter.

MOST low MR players are new players. MOST new players aren't as skilled as verteran players.

Are there exceptions? Yes. Is it anyone's job to ferret out those exceptions, no.

It is quite true to say that if you play with a low MR player you have a much higher chance of playing with a low skill player than if you play with a high MR player. Frankly that truth is all the justification someone needs. They don't want to take the risk, they want to increase their chance of playing with better players and they are within their rights to do just that.

It's not discrimination, any more someone hiring only college graduates. Could someone who didn't go to college be just as good? sure. Is it more likely that college graduates are more skilled, yes. Is it the companies job to take the time to find out? nope.

If you are skilled, raise your MR... then you won't care.

Or maybe someone shall chill out and remember it's just a ***** game? And not even a pvp based game?  And that no one forces you to play with them if you don't want to? Or maybe that you literally don't lose anything even if you lose one mission because even if it's the void, nothing valuable there except for the ducats anymore. 

But all that doesn't really matter because that 4mr restriction will 99% likely stay that way because you know. WIth all their possible faults DE is not know for being like this. Hence it's mr4 and not mr14 restriction.

[Senoinya]

... Am I the only guy who doesn't get why people think Sorties are hard, and just joins squads for fun because it's more entertaining than soloing them (which I could do)? If you're equipped with the right stuff and know how to play the game, it really doesn't matter what your team is comprised of. I don't mean to sound like an elitist here, but if you're going to join random squads and you can't handle the mission unless you have a very specific kind of squad, you shouldn't be joining random squads.

Basically, your problem is not MR4s in Sorties, your problem is an inability to compensate for whatever they may not be doing, and a lack of realization that you could just form your oh-so-perfect squad of fully-modded elites out of your clan or the recruitment chat if you really need a specific team.

I don't see why new players should be restricted from having a chance at the sortie rewards just because their existence there bothers you.

And for reference, I joined back in 2013 and have the Lato Vandal to prove it, furthermore, I'm MR16, so this wouldn't affect me personally. However, as someone who frequently goes out of their way to help new players, I can tell you that MR12-restricted Sorties is the last thing we need. Restrictions like those alienate new players, and new players become the pros you apparently need just to achieve anything, because here's a news flash for you: The old pros leave eventually, so what happens when they're all gone and all the would-be replacements were alienated before they got anywhere? The game dies.

[MagPrime]

No, I don't get it either.  

Honestly, it's not the end of the world if you fail a couple times.   It's not the end of the world if you have to try a little harder.  I like PUG'ing Sorties, I get to meet new people and have a blast.

If you want a fast, flawless run, make a group.  

[Hayabusa97]

MR is a mixed bag when judging how good someone is in different Sorties because I've run into some really dumb higher ranked people in todays Spy Sorties (I shouldn't have to tell people almost twice my MR and using stealth frames how to avoid the @(*()$ vault traps in Corpus Spy missions of all things, yes, I'm aggrevated.) Only reason I didn't solo the Spy sortie is because I rely on Ciphers for high level vaults.

[Kahme]

8 hours ago, Shockwave- said:

Is it the companies job to take the time to find out? nope.

"No interviews, resumes required, You just need a college degree." Ever seen such a job advertisement? And companies do take time to find out, there are processes like probation, interviews, appraisals, KPIs etc.Companies in the US have shortage of skilled labor, a study shows that there are plenty of experienced skilled labor to go around. But the criteria of a "college degree" made them non-existent.

The difference in setting a criteria and all out restriction is this,

On a company level, that is company A has the right to hire college graduates only. In Warframe context it would be on a squad level, you filter out those low MR players. Now if the function is unavailable, you should request it from the developers.

What is being proposed is on a national level. Congress pass a law that says unless you are a college graduate, you cannot apply to the industry that company A is in. Which is required if a human life depends on it. But this is a video game, human life is not lost or ruined when you fail a sortie.

I am not here to change your mind though. If my response value adds value, you are right, if my response does not add value, you are also right. New players" in Warframe, like "women" in Japan, "orphans" in South Korea are not in The List.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Kahme
Typos, clarifications

[Chipputer]

2 hours ago, Hayabusa97 said:

really dumb higher ranked people

2 hours ago, Hayabusa97 said:

I shouldn't have to tell people almost twice my MR and using stealth frames how to avoid the @(*()$ vault traps

2 hours ago, Hayabusa97 said:

I rely on Ciphers for high level vaults

So while those really dumb people are having issues with traps, you're not even attempting to do the hacking without some sort of device to do it for you? So in reality the reason you're angry with them is because you were leeching off of them, since you can't do the hacking yourself? I hope your foot tastes good.

 

 

[Hayabusa97]

16 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

So while those really dumb people are having issues with traps, you're not even attempting to do the hacking without some sort of device to do it for you? So in reality the reason you're angry with them is because you were leeching off of them, since you can't do the hacking yourself? I hope your foot tastes good.

 

 

I'm not a leech, I can hold my own in a Sortie. The reason I use ciphers in spy missions is because I want to complete the spy missions quick because I just want the Ivara parts. And it is only the very high level vaults I need ciphers for, everything else, I can hack easily (and I would have an even easier time doing it if my computer wasn't garbage)

 

Just because I use ciphers doesn't mean I'm a leech or discredits my comment. Sometimes, by the time I load into the mission (again, really bad computer) the mission is already over. Cipher usage also doesn't discredit my argument about the people I was with being idiots.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Hayabusa97

[Tenno29543]

On 5/12/2016 at 2:12 AM, Kahme said:

Protection from what? Dying? Failing the mission? Being banned for causing anxiety to other players in PUG?

As for surgery, undergraduates can practice simulation, that is like the real thing but not real. How do expect them to learn otherwise? Sorties is like that simulator, you don't DIE in a simulator, you merely fail. Also if you do not allow new surgeons to participate and learn, you'll run out of surgeons very soon.

I don't need you to put the FACT that LOW LEVEL players cannot do end game mission properly. How are they suppose to do it in the first place since they are LOW LEVEL? Speaking of which, we were talking about NEW players or LOW LEVEL players? And I don't mean MR, since MR does not accurately measure skill level. Or that MR21 can bring a R10 WF.

Discrimination, please allow me to give you an example of discrimination that we have here. "Race X sucks at maths, fact is majority of the race does fail maths academically, hence they should not be allowed to do any work that requires calculation." We do have laws against racial discrimination, however as long as nobody openly declares, HR managers can get away with anything.

It doesn't matter if race X has a few that score top in mathematics on a national scale. Doesn't matter, because it is a FACT majority fails mathematics.

Look, the end game missions are based on early game missions, if new players want to learn then go to a low lvl mission, i don't need no body to screw my game up. Again, you learn to walk before you run, you don't skip ahead or take short cuts and expect to get good results. New players and low MR players are 1 of the same majority of the time, i mean are you trying to tell me that there are a lot of low mr players that has about 2k hours of warframe? Are you trying to tell me that JUST BECAUSE those players exist we should trust low mrs and let them do end game stuff and EXPECT them to do good?

 

you are in a way contradicting your self because if new and unexperienced surgeons under go simulation then why do you suggests that new players should play a hard core lvl 100 mission to learn? The real thing for a surgeon is to do a real surgery that requires a lot of experience and skill, same goes for end game content in warframe, if a player have no idea what they're doing in endgame content and can not do anything to help, what's their purpose being there? much like a unexperienced surgeon in a real surgery.

[Tenno29543]

On 5/12/2016 at 2:10 PM, Noamuth said:

Where is this "fact" located?  I'd like a link to where it has such facts.  And discrimination is not limited to race, religion or sex.  

Also, MAJOR difference between surgery, with the potential from light scaring to death, is a bad comparison to running missions in a video game. 

Look, the principle is there. where is the "fact" located? go ask a bunch of MR4 and 3s and ask them if they are fully ready and equpied for a sortie. By dat i mean do they have all the necercery skill, mods and frames

[MagPrime]

16 minutes ago, BigBlackCook said:

Look, the principle is there. where is the "fact" located? go ask a bunch of MR4 and 3s and ask them if they are fully ready and equpied for a sortie. By dat i mean do they have all the necercery skill, mods and frames

Doing that would be a poll of people's opinions and that does not make it fact, MR3's can't join a Sortie already, why would I ask them if they're ready for it?

Also, per your post here;

On 5/3/2016 at 3:14 PM, BigBlackCook said:

the problem is, was frame is not about skill as much as about mods and experience.. If the change is set in stone and i am a high rank player, why would i do pirate matches with mr 4s and 5s? i would do pubs and inresult, the new players will be rekted.

You pretty clearly state that skill isn't relevant. 

As to being ready with mods and equipment, couple low MR players have posted here that they are well equipped and ready for Sortie content. 

 

[Tenno29543]

3 hours ago, Noamuth said:

Doing that would be a poll of people's opinions and that does not make it fact, MR3's can't join a Sortie already, why would I ask them if they're ready for it?

Also, per your post here;

You pretty clearly state that skill isn't relevant. 

As to being ready with mods and equipment, couple low MR players have posted here that they are well equipped and ready for Sortie content. 

 

By SKILL i mean the ability to do hacks, do spy missions and such, not aim. and it is essential to doing sorties. Like you said, A COUPLE, not a majority of the player base. Also define 'well equipped" because to me, it means to have maxed low ranking mods and at least rank 8 on important rank 10 mods like blind rage and trans, having formaed gear to have 4-6 polarities and have all the important weapons like the tonkor, hek(vaycor), sancti tigris etc..

Edited May 14, 2016 by BigBlackCook