Wyrm Prime: Please fix its stats before it is vaulted

[oceano4]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/4i9wch/wyrm_prime_overview_and_rant/

 

Hell, even if it's not vaulted, the fact it's factually, the weakest sentinel in terms of defence, is a huge mess, and has had a flawed existence ever since it;s introduction in Update 13.7.

Blazes video here explains it VERY well.

 

Edited May 10, 2016 by oceano4

[Ivan_Rid]

Why this guy does the blocking with Warding Halo active? Makes it hard to trust him on game mechanics related topics.

I do agree though, Wyrm Prime could use a ehp buff.

 

[Chipputer]

2 hours ago, Ivan_Rid said:

Why this guy does the blocking with Warding Halo active? Makes it hard to trust him on game mechanics related topics.

I do agree though, Wyrm Prime could use a ehp buff.

 

It sure is a good thing the blocking has nothing to do with the statistical differences between Wyrm and Wyrm Prime, then.

[Tesseract7777]

2 hours ago, Ivan_Rid said:

Why this guy does the blocking with Warding Halo active? Makes it hard to trust him on game mechanics related topics.

I do agree though, Wyrm Prime could use a ehp buff.

 

 

You're joking right? Please tell me your comment is a joke. 

It's not only totally irrelevant to the topic, and a completely unnecessary swipe at another player, but it doesn't make YOUR knowledge of game mechanics look very good. 

The answer is: For the same reason you still parkour/evade with Iron Skin on... it should really be obvious that you should try to not take damage if you can, even if you have Iron Skin or Warding Halo active. Those buffs are not invincible, they have their own hp... keeping them up longer means less energy spent recasting over and over, and also less chance you'll be destroyed in between casts, because you got overwhelmed by damage. You should never just run into a crowd like a derp just because you have IS/WH, in difficult missions you'll get brutally curb stomped by our enemies that way. 

Edited May 8, 2016 by Tesseract7777

[Ivan_Rid]

2 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

 

You're joking right? Please tell me your comment is a joke. 

It's not only totally irrelevant to the topic, and a completely unnecessary swipe at another player, but it doesn't make YOUR knowledge of game mechanics look very good. 

The answer is: For the same reason you still parkour/evade with Iron Skin on... it should really be obvious that you should try to not take damage if you can, even if you have Iron Skin or Warding Halo active. Those buffs are not invincible, they have their own hp... keeping them up longer means less energy spent recasting over and over, and also less chance you'll be destroyed in between casts, because you got overwhelmed by damage. You should never just run into a crowd like a derp just because you have IS/WH, in difficult missions you'll get brutally curb stomped by our enemies that way. 

There is dodging and there is blocking, and latter just plainly doesnt mechanically work with either WH or IS active.

[Tesseract7777]

• HUH??? 
•  
• http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Channeling#Channeling
•  
• Parrying with Rhino's Iron Skin active will not deflect any damage and instead mitigate the hitpoints to Iron Skin.

 

Yes blocking is beneficial with Iron Skin/Warding Halo active. 

[Ivan_Rid]

5 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

• HUH??? 
•  
• http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Channeling#Channeling
•  
• Parrying with Rhino's Iron Skin active will not deflect any damage and instead mitigate the hitpoints to Iron Skin.

 

Yes blocking is beneficial with Iron Skin/Warding Halo active. 

My bad, had no idea you had to actually block and channel for it to work. Both abilities pages just state that blocking wont work, pretty much.

And sorry for driving thread off topic.

[oceano4]

Bump: I really hope now that it's the week, someone over at DE HQ will see this. ;-;

[oceano4]

Update, it;s been confirmed that Loki Prime, Bo Prime and WYRM PRIME, are entering the vault. I really hope this gains some attention, it;s truly unfair to have Wyrm Prime being the weakest sentinel. 

 

[TARINunit9]

On 5/7/2016 at 3:14 PM, oceano4 said:

the weakest sentinel in terms of defence

Something that both you and the guy in the video are both missing is that shields aren't objectively worse than health on sentinels. In fact, they might be far better on sentinels.

Quick question, what's the number one hazard to a sentinel's well-being? The answer is explosions. Enemies don't shoot at sentinels as long as the Tenno is still alive, but explosions hit the both of you. This means while a Tenno has to take cover to see its shields regen, a sentinel can regen its shields whenever the heck it wants. As long as it has enough shields to tank one grenade or two bombard rockets, it will never see damage to health, only a little bit of easily-regenerated shield damage

Should the Wrym P still have 200 health? Yes. But it's not "the weakest sentinel"

[Jharmain]

I am rather curious as to why they even made its hp lower in the first place. I thought the primed stuff was the original and our stuff are cheap knockoffs? Are they implying that we improved upon the orokin design?

[(XBOX)PompousNinja156]

On ‎5‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 1:25 PM, TARINunit9 said:

Something that both you and the guy in the video are both missing is that shields aren't objectively worse than health on sentinels. In fact, they might be far better on sentinels.

Quick question, what's the number one hazard to a sentinel's well-being? The answer is explosions. Enemies don't shoot at sentinels as long as the Tenno is still alive, but explosions hit the both of you. This means while a Tenno has to take cover to see its shields regen, a sentinel can regen its shields whenever the heck it wants. As long as it has enough shields to tank one grenade or two bombard rockets, it will never see damage to health, only a little bit of easily-regenerated shield damage

Should the Wrym P still have 200 health? Yes. But it's not "the weakest sentinel"

Shields are objectively worse than armor, and I'd have less issue with Wyrm Prime if it had a higher armor number to raise it's EHP. The fact remains even then that Carrier Prime would still be tankier than Wyrm Prime if you just upped it's health to 200. At higher ranks, enemies will also be able to completely 1-shot through those shields with a stray bullet or from the stray blast of any explosive, whereas armor always cushions any damage to health they will get.

Adding onto that, I'd argue Toxin Auras/Clouds are deadlier to Sentinels because they bypass shields and directly hit the Setinels tiny healthpool, of which Wyrm Prime is the weakest, and while you can outplay a rocket from a Bombard (Don't facetank it since Setinels don't normally draw aggro (unless it's Djinn, but who uses that?)) A toxin aura from an Eximus will kill your sentinel in a few seconds and there's not much you can do but kill it faster.

[Chipputer]

14 minutes ago, (XB1)PompousNinja156 said:

unless it's Djinn, but who uses that?

I do, ever since they changed how Djinn works and made it actually good, now.

Try it out again.

[TARINunit9]

27 minutes ago, (XB1)PompousNinja156 said:

Shields are objectively worse than armor

ON WARFRAMES. Not on Sentinels.

99% of damage that a Sentinel takes will be from one source: splash damage. Napalms, Bombards, grenades, ground pounds, and Sapper Ospreys. Once these threats are down, it usually takes about 20 more seconds, bare minimum, for my sentinel to take damage again, by which time it will have refrigerated back to full shields. The health/armor becomes almost irrelevant, because anything strong enough to take out my Wyrm's shields is assuredly strong enough to kill my Diriga in the same number of attacks

And Venomous Eximi? Those guys do, what, 30 damage total? 45? Yeah, I'm not exactly fearing for my Wyrm's little life

Edited May 13, 2016 by TARINunit9

[bagelbagel]

12 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

ON WARFRAMES. Not on Sentinels.

99% of damage that a Sentinel takes will be from one source: splash damage. Napalms, Bombards, grenades, ground pounds, and Sapper Ospreys. Once these threats are down, it usually takes about 20 more seconds, bare minimum, for my sentinel to take damage again, by which time it will have refrigerated back to full shields. The health/armor becomes almost irrelevant, because anything strong enough to take out my Wyrm's shields is assuredly strong enough to kill my Diriga in the same number of attacks

And Venomous Eximi? Those guys do, what, 30 damage total? 45? Yeah, I'm not exactly fearing for my Wyrm's little life

Your shields wont be holding up so well when 3 bombards are shooting at you, or are in a toxic cloud.

[TARINunit9]

Just now, bagelbagel said:

Your shields wont be holding up so well when 3 bombards are shooting at you, or are in a toxic cloud.

Did you not even read what I wrote? I literally do not register Toxic Crawlers/Venomous Eximi/Toxic Ancients as a threat to my Wyrm's well-being. Why? Because if they're high enough level (or in the Ancient's case, close enough) to strip off my Wyrm's health, I would have already died in the first place, thus killing my Wyrm instantly. As for three Bombards, pretty similar situation. If we're at a high enough level that they can kill Wyrm, they can kill Diriga and me as well

[bagelbagel]

3 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Did you not even read what I wrote? I literally do not register Toxic Crawlers/Venomous Eximi/Toxic Ancients as a threat to my Wyrm's well-being. Why? Because if they're high enough level (or in the Ancient's case, close enough) to strip off my Wyrm's health, I would have already died in the first place, thus killing my Wyrm instantly. As for three Bombards, pretty similar situation. If we're at a high enough level that they can kill Wyrm, they can kill Diriga and me as well

With the regen mod and the use of steel fiber, shields are way less important. Anyways, the topic of the post was primarily about his health being so low and making wyrm's survivability terrible, not about his shields.

[TARINunit9]

Just now, bagelbagel said:

With the regen mod and the use of steel fiber, shields are way less important. Anyways, the topic of the post was primarily about his health being so low and making wyrm's survivability terrible, not about his shields.

I know what the point of the thread is. Should Wyrm Prime have 200 health? Yes, totally.

But because you insist on talking to me, we're talking about Sentinel shields. I personally don't see much of a difference between 1200 shields 100 health and 1200 shields 200 health ON A SENTINEL, because Sentinel health isn't like Warframe health. With the exception of Diriga, I don't have to care about Sentinel health, because I only ever NEED the ablative shields layer

[bagelbagel]

1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

I know what the point of the thread is. Should Wyrm Prime have 200 health? Yes, totally.

But because you insist on talking to me, we're talking about Sentinel shields. I personally don't see much of a difference between 1200 shields 100 health and 1200 shields 200 health ON A SENTINEL, because Sentinel health isn't like Warframe health. With the exception of Diriga, I don't have to care about Sentinel health, because I only ever NEED the ablative shields layer

That's only in your opinion and how you mod your sent though. To other people an extra 100 hp + armor bonuses is essential.

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

Um...

Crowd Dispersion was buffed pretty well in one of the updates, I really wouldn't call it weak...

Though, an extra 100 HP wouldn't hurt I guess.

[(XBOX)PompousNinja156]

40 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

ON WARFRAMES. Not on Sentinels.

99% of damage that a Sentinel takes will be from one source: splash damage. Napalms, Bombards, grenades, ground pounds, and Sapper Ospreys. Once these threats are down, it usually takes about 20 more seconds, bare minimum, for my sentinel to take damage again, by which time it will have refrigerated back to full shields. The health/armor becomes almost irrelevant, because anything strong enough to take out my Wyrm's shields is assuredly strong enough to kill my Diriga in the same number of attacks

And Venomous Eximi? Those guys do, what, 30 damage total? 45? Yeah, I'm not exactly fearing for my Wyrm's little life

Shields are objectively worse than Armor on EVERYTHING.

This is because unlike armor, shields do not scale to damage the same way armor does; % based damage mitigation scales up as enemies do more damage, unlike shields, who get no benefit from Armor. Shields then, is basically just 'extra' ( I put the airquotes as plain Health benefits from armor, thus actually scales up) health that automatically regerates outside combat.

This becomes readily apparent in how better 99% damage mitigation from Blessing is compared to all other defensive buffs around, barring outright invincibility like Valkyr.

In relation to Wyrm Prime, this means that despite the higher shields, Carrier Prime will take the same blast that one-shot's your Wyrm P. and survive because it has a higher armor to fall back on, even if you were to buff them up to have the same health.

[(PSN)Zashukitsune]

Does any sentinel really count as a tank?  If they actually get targeted, they're gone before you can say goodbye, as stated before, they generally just have splash damage to deal with.

Not arguing the point of the topic, except that it's rather like upgrading the car before you lock the car up for a while. Rather pointless, could've been done before and likely won't be now that it's a moot point.

[TARINunit9]

22 minutes ago, (XB1)PompousNinja156 said:

Shields are objectively worse than Armor on EVERYTHING.

This is because unlike armor, shields do not scale to damage the same way armor does; % based damage mitigation scales up as enemies do more damage, unlike shields, who get no benefit from Armor. Shields then, is basically just 'extra' ( I put the airquotes as plain Health benefits from armor, thus actually scales up) health that automatically regerates outside combat.

This becomes readily apparent in how better 99% damage mitigation from Blessing is compared to all other defensive buffs around, barring outright invincibility like Valkyr.

In relation to Wyrm Prime, this means that despite the higher shields, Carrier Prime will take the same blast that one-shot's your Wyrm P. and survive because it has a higher armor to fall back on, even if you were to buff them up to have the same health.

You're looking at purely raw numbers, with no regard to practical application

If I'm fighting enemies strong enough to actually seriously threaten my Sentinel, it's going to die after 2 minutes no matter which sentinel I actually bring (unless, of course, I bring a Bless Trin). Bombards/Napalms/Toxic Ancients that strong will just tear through my little floating buddies regardless if I take Wyrm or Diriga -- more to the point, they will tear through ME even faster than they'll kill Wyrm Prime -- and if I'm trapped in a Venomous Eximus aura that long I probably have much, MUCH bigger issues at hand

Honestly I think Sentinels as a general class of companions are pretty god-awful, about good for keeping me company on the starchart or when running for Syndicate medals and nothing else. They steal affinity when I'm ranking up mastery fodder, and they don't kill quickly enough once my weapons actually hit level 30, and after that they just all die. Even our lord and savior Carrier tends to just be totally and utterly superfluous (I can just walk two steps and pick up the items myself 100% of the time)

But I digress

Bottom line: Anything that CAN damage a sentinel is either ineffectual (Venomous Eximus) or only deals a couple hundred burst damage (Bombards/Napalms). Nothing else ever even bothers to shoot at Wyrm. Like, ever. So if my Wyrm Prime has enough shields to soak up Bombard attacks, everything is golden

[oceano4]

2 hours ago, mac10smg-ToaOfGreen said:

Um...

Crowd Dispersion was buffed pretty well in one of the updates, I really wouldn't call it weak...

Though, an extra 100 HP wouldn't hurt I guess.

We're talking about the healthpool, I suggest watching Blazes video.

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

1 minute ago, oceano4 said:

We're talking about the healthpool, I suggest watching Blazes video.

But still, you're still calling the Wyrm Prime 'weak' in a sense, I was just refuting that somewhat.