Wyrm Prime: Please fix its stats before it is vaulted

[Tesseract7777]

6 minutes ago, oceano4 said:

What about Carrier Prime then? And all other Prime gear which have no drawbacks? 

And with mods such as fired up, sanctuary, mediray, Animal Instinct there isn't a lot of room left, not many people will find room for fast deflection.

Also keep in mind shields aren't effected by armour, and last time I checked, Carrier can now heal itself by sucking up health orbs. Combine that with it;s amazing armour and massive health pool, and Carrier Prime is tankier than some frames. 

Another thing to remember, is damage that breaks shields, then goes into health, DOESN'T take armour into consideration. Someone datamined this.found this out on r/Warframe, we think it's a glitch currently.

So all in all, when it comes to our defences. Health>Armour>Shields. Wyrm Prime can have loads of armour, but it won't matter, with a tiny health pool like it has now, it just dies easier compared to normal Wyrm when they have the same mods. 

 

I showed the math. I still haven't seen math to contradict my point. With all respect pointing out the drawbacks to shields doesn't invalidate my point at all. Where is the math showing me wrong? What I see is a very slight difference in EHP -- especially considering no sentinel has a decent amount of EHP to begin with (so the difference isn't that significant), even Carrier Prime really. And three times as many shields. That is objectively more survivability. The damage you are talking about (shield ignoring) just does not happen as often as you are saying. I would love for you to prove me otherwise, but I play a lot of warframe, you can look at my hours played in game idc. And shield ignoring damage just doens't happen nearly as often as you claim. 

 

As for Carrier Prime, this thread isn't about Carrier Prime, I thought. I thought it was about Wyrm versus Wyrm Prime. Carrier Prime is a different can of worms. There is a lot of room really, there aren't that many sentinel mods still. So you have to make a couple choices now, and you might make different ones based on the sentinel? That's a good thing. We should feel like we have more build diversity anyways. 

 

For the record I wouldn't be against a buff for Wyrm Prime. I don't care if they do. I'm just pointing out that the claim that he has less survivability doesn't hold water. Would I be against a buff to bring him up closer to Carrier Prime in terms of overall strength? Sure, why not? Power creep and all that. But the claim that he is objectively weaker doesn't hold up. 

Edited May 15, 2016 by Tesseract7777

[TheTundraTerror]

2 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

I don't think anyone would complain if the base health was boosted to 200. That wasn't the point of what you were arguing against, though, as it's mathematically able to be proven that Wyrm Prime has superior survivability, even now.

I am saying this one last time: shields are garbage at higher levels.

Let me ask you: what's going to happen if you're under the kind of heavy fire that will result in your sentinal being unable to recharge it's shields?

[Tesseract7777]

Sentinels aren't even relevant at truly high level play anyways lol. 

[TheTundraTerror]

Just now, Tesseract7777 said:

Sentinels aren't even relevant at truly high level play anyways lol. 

Oh, I see how it works now. Suddenly I ask something that might have some merit to it and "lol not relevant".

Edited May 15, 2016 by TheTundraTerror

[Tesseract7777]

Shields are relevant at high level play, but sentinels are not. Just clearing that up. My point was that discussing sentinels or kubrows in terms of truly high level play is more of an exercise in theory anyway because they just aren't going to be sticking around. 

Edited May 15, 2016 by Tesseract7777

[oceano4]

2 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

 

I showed the math. I still haven't seen math to contradict my point. With all respect pointing out the drawbacks to shields doesn't invalidate my point at all. Where is the math showing me wrong? What I see is a very slight difference in EHP -- especially considering no sentinel has a decent amount of EHP to begin with (so the difference isn't that significant), even Carrier Prime really. And three times as many shields. That is objectively more survivability. The damage you are talking about (shield ignoring) just does not happen as often as you are saying. I would love for you to prove me otherwise, but I play a lot of warframe, you can look at my hours played in game idc. And shield ignoring damage just doens't happen nearly as often as you claim. 

 

As for Carrier Prime, this thread isn't about Carrier Prime, I thought. I thought it was about Wyrm versus Wyrm Prime. Carrier Prime is a different can of worms. There is a lot of room really, there aren't that many sentinel mods still. So you have to make a couple choices now, and you might make different ones based on the sentinel? That's a good thing. We should feel like we have more build diversity anyways. 

Oh no no, I'm not talking about slash/toxin etc.

Please excuse me if my typing is poor, it is late here in the UK.

So, someone on r/Warframe found out, that when your shield breaks from, lets say, a sniper bullet dealing 100 damage (Lets assume the shields were less than 100 when the bullet hit), the damage that then eats into your health, isn't affected by your armour.

So instead of taking less damage once it hits your armour boosted health, you get the full brunt of the impact.

So Sentinels/Frames with low health pools, no matter the armour, will end up taking a lot more damage than they should be, as far as I'm aware.

I'm gonna try and find that thread right now. :) 

 

[Tesseract7777]

2 minutes ago, oceano4 said:

Oh no no, I'm not talking about slash/toxin etc.

Please excuse me if my typing is poor, it is late here in the UK.

So, someone on r/Warframe found out, that when your shield breaks from, lets say, a sniper bullet dealing 100 damage (Lets assume the shields were less than 100 when the bullet hit), the damage that then eats into your health, isn't affected by your armour.

So instead of taking less damage once it hits your armour boosted health, you get the full brunt of the impact.

So Sentinels/Frames with low health pools, no matter the armour, will end up taking a lot more damage than they should be, as far as I'm aware.

I'm gonna try and find that thread right now. :) 

 

 

Interesting, that would probably be most certainly a bug though. One that should be reported if so. I'm pretty sure that's not how it should work. Your essentially saying the bug is causing spillover damage that breaks shields to ignore armor? 

 

For the record btw, I am not against a Wyrm Prime buff, I was just trying to clear up the overall math in terms of survival strength comparison of the two. : ) 

Edited May 15, 2016 by Tesseract7777

[Chipputer]

7 minutes ago, TheTundraTerror said:

I am saying this one last time: shields are garbage at higher levels.

Let me ask you: what's going to happen if you're under the kind of heavy fire that will result in your sentinal being unable to recharge it's shields?

The same thing that happens to your frame, when that happens: it dies. Having 100 more health isn't going to save Wyrm Prime from that no matter how much you want to argue about it. Carrier Prime isn't going to fare much better, at that point.

Companions, in general, are pointless at high level play unless you're running with some form of virtual immortality. If you deny this you are being completely dishonest and there is no discussing anything with you.

[oceano4]

1 minute ago, Tesseract7777 said:

 

Your essentially saying the bug is causing spillover damage that breaks shields to ignore armor? 

Yeup, that's the gist. :D 

 

I found the thread too! :D

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/4hmq0b/shields_and_you_understanding_damage_types/

[IceColdHawk]

@Tesseract7777 I appreciate your kind maths but i still can't find the justification on why the poor wyrm prime must draw out on the short stick. 

It's not a matter of which sentinel has the most 1337 DPS or in this case survivability, but more a case of consistency. Why would the wyrm prime, have less HP than it's unupgraded version? Why do you allow the carrier prime to be the masterrace but don't allow the wyrm prime to be a full upgrade just like primes usually are? Carrier Prime will certainly not be the last prime sentinel and the next one will certainly get the same treatment as carrier prime and by then we still have a buffed&nerfed wyrm prime instead of a buffed wyrm prime. You essentially even seem to agree that companions ain't be a big deal in high end missions which is true, so why let the wyrm prime have nerfed health stats? It's just unfair compared to carrier prime and possible future primed sentinels.

[Tesseract7777]

Just now, IceColdHawk said:

@Tesseract7777 I appreciate your kind maths but i still can't find the justification on why the poor wyrm prime must draw out on the short stick. 

It's not a matter of which sentinel has the most 1337 DPS or in this case survivability, but more a case of consistency. Why would the wyrm prime, have less HP than it's unupgraded version? Why do you allow the carrier prime to be the masterrace but don't allow the wyrm prime to be a full upgrade just like primes usually are? Carrier Prime will certainly not be the last prime sentinel and the next one will certainly get the same treatment as carrier prime and by then we still have a buffed&nerfed wyrm prime instead of a buffed wyrm prime. You essentially even seem to agree that companions ain't be a big deal in high end missions which is true, so why let the wyrm prime have nerfed health stats? It's just unfair compared to carrier prime and possible future primed sentinels.

 

I'm sorry if in the strangeness of all the memes I didn't represent myself properly. For the record, as I only just finally stated properly a couple posts back, I am not against a buff to Wyrm Prime. Especially with Carrier Prime as it is I think it would be fair to bring it closer to that in terms of overall stats -- obviously not the same, but closer in overall surivival abilities. 

I just was arguing with the contention that Wyrm Prime is somehow vastly inferior to regular Wyrm as it stands, and I got so caught up in that, that I may have made it sound like I am against Wyrm Prime being buffed. 

[oceano4]

1 minute ago, IceColdHawk said:

@Tesseract7777 I appreciate your kind maths but i still can't find the justification on why the poor wyrm prime must draw out on the short stick. 

It's not a matter of which sentinel has the most 1337 DPS or in this case survivability, but more a case of consistency. Why would the wyrm prime, have less HP than it's unupgraded version? Why do you allow the carrier prime to be the masterrace but don't allow the wyrm prime to be a full upgrade just like primes usually are? Carrier Prime will certainly not be the last prime sentinel and the next one will certainly get the same treatment as carrier prime and by then we still have a buffed&nerfed wyrm prime instead of a buffed wyrm prime. You essentially even seem to agree that companions ain't be a big deal in high end missions which is true, so why let the wyrm prime have nerfed health stats? It's just unfair compared to carrier prime and possible future primed sentinels.

That, and a few other primes too actually, Fang Prime (less status, no slash), I made a thread for this too, I really hope it picks up. 

If you guys can find some more guns that need visiting, then please feel free to help keep the topic alive and add your options on there. :D

[IceColdHawk]

5 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I'm sorry if in the strangeness of all the memes I didn't represent myself properly. For the record, as I only just finally stated properly a couple posts back, I am not against a buff to Wyrm Prime. Especially with Carrier Prime as it is I think it would be fair to bring it closer to that in terms of overall stats -- obviously not the same, but closer in overall surivival abilities. 

I just was arguing with the contention that Wyrm Prime is somehow vastly inferior to regular Wyrm as it stands, and I got so caught up in that, that I may have made it sound like I am against Wyrm Prime being buffed. 

It's alright. Good to hear that you weren't trying to argue against the sake of consistency! The health doesn't have to be buffed compared to the normal wyrm, just let it be on par at least. So carrier prime got more health and wyrm prime got more shields. Looks fair with me to be honest.

Edited May 15, 2016 by IceColdHawk

[oceano4]

Just now, IceColdHawk said:

It's alright. Good to hear that you weren't trying to argue against the sake of consistency! The health doesn't have to be buffed compared to the normal wyrm, just let it be on par at least. So carrier prime got more health and wyrm prime got more shields. Looks fair with me to be honest.

Sounds like a plan to me.

Now we just gotta roll this comment into a nice paper-ball, and keep throwing it at the hypothetical window of DE. :D

[taiiat]

so here's a quick example of interesting choices.

27 minutes ago, TheTundraTerror said:

lore

the game constantly breaks it's own lore as it is.
so whatever.

 

[[DE]Momaw]

The thing that's amazing to me, is that Wyrm Prime was buffed... last year.

When Wyrm Prime was first introduced, it had:  200 health, 100 shield, 50 armor.  Sound familiar? That's what Wyrm has.  The prime released with literally no survivability upgrades. And then we got Carrier Prime, which had massive survivability upgrades. The discrepency was pointed out to DE and they changed it to what it is now, which is admittedly light on health but has more shielding than most warframes.

As has been explained, there's only a handful of shield-penetrating AOE attacks, the big thing being toxic clouds from mutalist ospreys.  For the most part, anything that can actually plow through Wyrm Prime's shields and smash his creamy center is also going to smash the hell out of Carrier Prime too. CPrime has more health, but limited shields to soak up damage before incoming attacks get to it. Sentinels are rarely the focus of enemy attention so shields, and shield mods, are worth comparatively more to them than a warframe's shields.

While Wyrm Prime does have a stat that is slightly lower than Wyrm, the end product is a vast improvement. Any discussion about "buff the prime's health!" must necessarily start with "nerf the prime's shields!" to preserve some semblance of sanity.  Do you really want to make its health the same as Wyrm's at the cost of reducing his shields to, for example, 150?  Bearing in mind that there's very few things that we can do to actually heal our sentinels if we're not playing Trinity, while shields just work.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Momaw

[oceano4]

11 hours ago, Momaw said:

The thing that's amazing to me, is that Wyrm Prime was buffed... last year.

When Wyrm Prime was first introduced, it had:  200 health, 100 shield, 50 armor.  Sound familiar? That's what Wyrm has.  The prime released with literally no survivability upgrades. And then we got Carrier Prime, which had massive survivability upgrades. The discrepency was pointed out to DE and they changed it to what it is now, which is admittedly light on health but has more shielding than most warframes.

As has been explained, there's only a handful of shield-penetrating AOE attacks, the big thing being toxic clouds from mutalist ospreys.  For the most part, anything that can actually plow through Wyrm Prime's shields and smash his creamy center is also going to smash the hell out of Carrier Prime too. CPrime has more health, but limited shields to soak up damage before incoming attacks get to it. Sentinels are rarely the focus of enemy attention so shields, and shield mods, are worth comparatively more to them than a warframe's shields.

While Wyrm Prime does have a stat that is slightly lower than Wyrm, the end product is a vast improvement. Any discussion about "buff the prime's health!" must necessarily start with "nerf the prime's shields!" to preserve some semblance of sanity.  Do you really want to make its health the same as Wyrm's at the cost of reducing his shields to, for example, 150?  Bearing in mind that there's very few things that we can do to actually heal our sentinels if we're not playing Trinity, while shields just work.

There is two things to keep in mind though.

Carrier can heal itself by sucking up health orbs, combine that with its doubled health, and it;s tankier than some Warframes.

Also, the link I posted in one of my earlier comments, about armour NOT working, when something breaks shields. 

So how about, double shields for Wyrm, and the standard 200 health? 

So Carrier Prime compared to Carrier will have same shields. triple armour, double health

And

Wyrm Prime compared to Wyrm, will have same health, triple armour, and double sheilds. 

[Chipputer]

19 minutes ago, oceano4 said:

Carrier can heal itself by sucking up health orbs

Do you mind providing proof that this happens? You were saying it in a manner that said you weren't sure earlier in the thread, now it's suddenly a statement of fact. I've never noticed this happening.

[IceColdHawk]

4 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Do you mind providing proof that this happens? You were saying it in a manner that said you weren't sure earlier in the thread, now it's suddenly a statement of fact. I've never noticed this happening.

I can confirm it's true. Simulacrum, take some bombard hits, let your carrier heal itself by sucking up the life orbs.

[Chipputer]

33 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

I can confirm it's true. Simulacrum, take some bombard hits, let your carrier heal itself by sucking up the life orbs.

Welp. Just tested it outside of the Simulacrum, after seeing this. Even at full player* health it sucks in health orbs to heal itself.

GG no re DE.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Chipputer
* specifying what I meant

[Tesseract7777]

2 hours ago, oceano4 said:

There is two things to keep in mind though.

Carrier can heal itself by sucking up health orbs, combine that with its doubled health, and it;s tankier than some Warframes.

Also, the link I posted in one of my earlier comments, about armour NOT working, when something breaks shields. 

So how about, double shields for Wyrm, and the standard 200 health? 

So Carrier Prime compared to Carrier will have same shields. triple armour, double health

And

Wyrm Prime compared to Wyrm, will have same health, triple armour, and double sheilds. 

 

I did look at the link you posted though, and it seems the person who wrote that out amended it to say that now they aren't sure it's working the way you claim. Unless I misread/misinterpreted it? It seems like the redditor who posted that stuff about armor/shields was pretty sure, and then he wasn't sure at all, and now he thinks he may be wrong. Again, unless I'm misreading the post. Either way though, while I do think Wyrm Prime would be fine with a buff, I am hesitant to base the strength of his buff on a rumored bug. I mean, even if it does glitch out the way you are saying, that is almost certainly a bug that will be patched out at some point -- so we probably shouldn't base the numbers (whether higher or lower) on that until we know if it is a confirmed bug/confirmed working as intended, or if it's even actually happening the way the guy claims. Because, to paraphrase the redditor who was writing that out, he didn't want to clutter up the bug section of the forums unless he was really sure. 

Edited May 15, 2016 by Tesseract7777

[ReshyShira]

There's no good reason for why Wyrm Prime has worse stats then it's original, it's much harder to acquire.  The heavily boosted shields don't help very much due to shields being weak in general.