Where DE went wrong. Increasing grind /= more money!

[Robm]

The problem I have is the excessive grind for one resource. I thought they wanted to change the farming in one mission but I guess not. Maybe it it was multiple resources at smaller quantities with some grind for all them would be fine, but grinding the same mission for 2-8 hours is not fun.

[tripletriple]

13 hours ago, Siideriu said:

Any purchased advantage is P2W. 

http://bfy.tw/5rDP

Except you are being very dramatic if you think 50 energy makes you have a distinctive disadvantage. 

Although admittedly it's not the best route to go down. I just think they need to spice up their prime package. 

Also Vauban prime is the hardest prime to get to date. Saying it is not over bearing is a complete lie. You need to put in tons of time to get him.

Saying you only need 10 hours of game play to get one weapon is okay is the definition of insanity.

Edited May 20, 2016 by tripletriple

[Nordenfelt_]

4 hours ago, (PS4)AltimaotGates said:

The problem is that over time, no matter how intricate the system you make, players who have an involved community will always, always be a step ahead of you as developers, and trying to keep to a strict free to play model. It all depends on what the player wants to get out of it, and the majority is getting that one build they want and then they are done, but want more content. It ends up being a race that no one wins. On the developer side, it's making more content while producing systems that will challenge and intice the player while they go to the next step. While the player side has always been divided among the hardcore who favor the grind and players who just log in to get that one thing they hear is awesome, get it, play with it a bit and stop playing again. Of course there is more diversity than just that, but it proves the point that managing the vast community versus the intended track of the developer, their game plan for the game.

 

I am a new player, and just started in March. I haven't run into many things that I screamed as "unfair", even viewing the newer stuff for planning on what to get and what to pass on. Besides the focus system, which is just not economical for what you pay for it versus what you get, as well as sortie rewards. Everything else I see as things to plan for while I do my daily stuff.

I see your point and can't not agree with it, but still, is not the best way to keep players out from burnout and disappointment in game. Sure, is actually not developers main concern. But every little variety in missions, real difficulty (not just endless grind-for-grind and nor stupid enemy AI (I just can't stop pointing on it, sorry) what can be outperformed not with actual clever tactics or calculations, but only with braindead cheese moves and meta), can make positive difference. Sure, I can be wrong, may be this is what Warframe don't need at all. May be all going according to plan and this is DEvs ideal game concept. But improvements have to be made. And we will see them sooner or later, I hope.
I've been playing in this game for three long years, I have seen how this game grows, changes and sometimes becomes better. But some things not changing. But I can't leave all my progress, investments, and most important, faith in this game, so I just get used to it and just continue playing. 

Edited May 20, 2016 by Nordenfelt_

[DoomFruit]

1 hour ago, Siideriu said:

As I have said before in countless topics, Cryotic is by far one of the easiest resources to obtain. It's guaranteed. Had you prepared well for the update, you probably had farmed for T3/T4 keys in Hieracon. Let's be pessimistic and say the up time is 80% towards the end of a fast and easy 2000-run (whereas in reality it's closer to 130% due to stacking drills), you would have got the required 30.000 Cryotic in roughly 10 hours. The last major update (Saryn) was 91 days ago.

I already have all the keys I need from running spies and from syndicate key packs. I've never once set foot in Hieracon.

[(PSN)Asdeft]

7 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Ok, I see what you meant now.  I can't say that I agree or disagree.  In a way if all primes were the same to get, then it would be possible for Vauban Prime to be easier to get than regular Vauban.  That wouldn't be right either.  Then you have Quest frames and non-quest frames that can be a hell grind or easy depending on the person and RNG.  I've seen posts of players catching hell trying to get Ivara and others who got her fairly easy.  

I would say that Ash Prime is easier to get than Ash and that Nikana Prime is much easier than the Dragon Nikana. I think the 15 Nitain is the only thing that is excessive since it was already not too popular with the community and then they give us this huge requirement. Why do I have to grind to get the blueprints, then I have to grind harder to even craft them and then I am sick of the game by the end of it. I know this is all luxury items, but they do have to understand, we want to play the game as well. Doing these kinds of requirements can, and will, burn people out until the next update, which is just the cycle of Warframe for some. 

[(PSN)AltimaotGates]

2 hours ago, tripletriple said:

Except you are being very dramatic if you think 50 energy makes you have a distinctive disadvantage. 

Although admittedly it's not the best route to go down. I just think they need to spice up their prime package. 

Also Vauban prime is the hardest prime to get to date. Saying it is not over bearing is a complete lie. You need to put in tons of time to get him.

Saying you only need 10 hours of game play to get one weapon is okay is the definition of insanity.

I agree that its not play to win, truth be told though, a new frame isn't just a new weapon, it's a variety of weapons in one, basically like a new class or new character. I would say expecting to have it within the day or even within a week is symptomatic of the "if I don't have it within a week of release, it's bad".

The counterpoint to that it's not necessary to be "ahead of the pack" all the time, sure you want to try things out when it's fresh, but then you find out that massive ten hour grind fest was for something you didn't really care for. So why not slowly wait, plan, and keep your nose to what the community says about it first before going in hard? Saves you tons of headache and you have more enjoyment.

 

Even with jobs, kids, and other such, it's possible if you make plans to get it, but most don't plan, they just want to brute force grind to get the thing they want. I saw a few vids on Warframe before I started, and more than a few have said, "save your Nitalin, they will probably use it for more and more stuff".

 

@Nordenfelt

 

I completely understand your feelings, but it's the way things are. Say they improve mechanics, they would need to seriously bone people to undo the meta for team support at this point(and making mechanics that can't be cheese with this amount of player variety and tools at their desposal is ever increasingly difficult). And the worst, the absolute worst thing to do is to fight the meta. You can only work around it and add options to mitigate cheese, but breaking the meta tends to male things rather sour from what I see in other communities.

[Valar.Morghulis]

16 hours ago, tripletriple said:

50 extra energy is P2W? What??

Many other have already said it but any advantage that is gained by spending real life money that is not available in game would be clearly Pay-to-Win.

 

How ever in his defense there are already pay-to-win elements in Warframe. See Example 1: Excalibur Prime being better than the Excalibur available to the play base.  Any advantage that can only be obtained by spending real life money is pay-to-win even if it is no longer available for purchase.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Valar.Morghulis
Spelling

[Mr.Lube]

China says hello

[Plushy]

1 hour ago, Valar.Morghulis said:

See Example 1: Excalibur Prime being better than the Excalibur available to the play base.  Any advantage that can only be obtained by spending real life money is pay-to-win even if it is no longer available for purchase.

If that's your only example then I don't think we can consider Warframe a p2w game. By now we should all know better than complain about Excalibur prime or even comment on how "unfair" it is only founders got it. The stat difference is beyond unimportant in the grand scheme of Warframe. 

[JuanDeages]

13 hours ago, texrei said:

Prime Access is way too expensive. Make it cheaper, small losses may bring even more profit.

 

They should let us customise what we want. The plat is where a lot of that fluff cost comes from.

[JuanDeages]

2 hours ago, Valar.Morghulis said:

Many other have already said it but any advantage that is gained by spending real life money that is not available in game would be clearly Pay-to-Win.

 

How ever in his defense there are already pay-to-win elements in Warframe. See Example 1: Excalibur Prime being better than the Excalibur available to the play base.  Any advantage that can only be obtained by spending real life money is pay-to-win even if it is no longer available for purchase.

That was not always the case, and Umbra will be released to even the playing field since the excal prime buff.

[Valar.Morghulis]

3 hours ago, Plushy said:

If that's your only example then I don't think we can consider Warframe a p2w game. By now we should all know better than complain about Excalibur prime or even comment on how "unfair" it is only founders got it. The stat difference is beyond unimportant in the grand scheme of Warframe. 

You can disagre all you like but the definition of Pay-2-Win is the ability to spend real life money to gain an advantage. No matter now small or how limited the access the existence of a Money-Only frame that is BETTER then the one that is freely available to the player base make the statement true.

 

3 hours ago, JuanDeages said:

That was not always the case, and Umbra will be released to even the playing field since the excal prime buff.

True when Excalibur and Excalibur Prime had the same stats then it did not matter, since Mastery Rank really has no meaning. Sadly when they buffed Excalibur Prime, they made it Warframe Pay-2-Win even if it is in a limited capacity.

However with Umbra Excalibur it will make that statement less true as long as they do not allow mastery rank to provide power to the player/warframe. Then the existence of any exclusive weapons/warframes that provide Mastery Exp provides an advantage over those that did not spend the money.

[Gulftown]

9 hours ago, tripletriple said:

Also Vauban prime is the hardest prime to get to date. Saying it is not over bearing is a complete lie. You need to put in tons of time to get him.

Saying you only need 10 hours of game play to get one weapon is okay is the definition of insanity.

And Vauban is the hardest of the non-primes. Again, I don't see a problem here, Sibear is bad weapon but it's new content, its only value being the extra mastery to those who have already maximized everything else. Ten hours, or more blatantly 30.000 Cryotic is nothing for those players. The rest of us will get it eventually.

[GrimAtrament]

so make this game pay to win no thanks i would rather grind...

[Eftycchia]

I have no complaints regarding resource costs of the new Primeset.
Why?
Dosh. It's an agreeable fact that you can technically pay for power in-game, but on Warframe it matters not due to its main focus being a co-operative game for the most part. Primes only offer 3 things. 1. Slightly better stats (disregarding Volt/Saryn Prime), 2. Availability of Death Orbs as energy bolsters, and 3. Fookin' blings. See? It's not that significant, and aside from that, only one part of Primes' special gameplay which is limited to only one region which is Void.

I do agree though that the 7000 Oxium gap is really not okay when we have Zephyr that only needs 600 Oxium total (which was plenty back when Oxium Espionage got introduced to the game, excuse me).

At least bring it down to a reasonable level of amount like say; 1500. Plenty enough without players sacrificing too much time for such a nonsensical item that's just a Chassis when there's Grattler which has its count justified due to it being a humongous Archgun.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Derinkavat

[DatDarkOne]

The only thing I see that Warframe does is have the option to pay to avoid grind.  I've done the "Grind" to craft a few weapons.  Those mostly required Argon and Mutalist Mass.  I've also just bought items.  Since I value my time more than anything else, having this option is nice.  I can't really say that it's a Pay2win situation as everything except for cosmetics can be gotten without paying a cent.  Whether that grind is fair or not, I can't say for sure as I'm trying to look at the issue from both sides.  I person that pays and one that has grinded to craft items.  You can't make things too easy to get for free or you will lose the paying part.  You also have to balance the difficulty of getting item free with the real cost.  Just something to think about.  :D

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

tbh i think people are blowing things out of proportion. i don't like the idea behind nitain either but alerts are on almost constantly. like literally when logging in during various daytimes i got like 70% alertium chance. the prime access grind isn't worse than any other. just give up the notion you have to get everything on the first day...

think about it, people like to cite the prime access trailer mockery video:

it's about getting a hikou prime pouch.

now how many pouches did you already get while farming vauban prime?

...

see? just take it easy. DE aren't mainly cashing in on frustraion but impatience, which is our own problem really.

[kubbi]

Which makes me wonder. How many people spend money for plat to get things easier? I personally buy when I am happy about the game and am willing to invest in it. Making things harder to obtain doesn't convience me to buy at all but actually further straves me away from the game.  

[Sunfaiz]

On 5/20/2016 at 9:16 AM, DatDarkOne said:

Thank you Siideriu for posting that.  

If I had paid to get Vauban P, I would be pissed if someone was able to get him for free in 2 days (as of this post) easily.  For everyone that is complaining about the crafting costs, just remember that he hasn't even been out that long.  It is completely unrealistic to think that you should easily craft him in 2-4 days.  

I got him within the first few hours . I have a second set ready to sell. Sold a fragor set and Akstilettos is almost done. People can get him in the first few days. My problem isn't that he's easy to get it's the crafting and how every weapon or frame from now on is going to cost that much. If it was JUST vauban it'd be ok with it, but the Sibear shows that it has nothing to do with Vauban should Not be easier to get than his prime. 

[DatDarkOne]

11 minutes ago, Sunfaiz said:

I got him within the first few hours . I have a second set ready to sell. Sold a fragor set and Akstilettos is almost done. People can get him in the first few days. My problem isn't that he's easy to get it's the crafting and how every weapon or frame from now on is going to cost that much. If it was JUST vauban it'd be ok with it, but the Sibear shows that it has nothing to do with Vauban should Not be easier to get than his prime. 

You have him now. Great.  That means he's easier to get than original version.  That you have him crafted or are crafting him now kinda defeats all the arguments about craft grinding.  Especially given the time that he was released.  So, since you have crafted him 3 days after release, why is everyone whining about the grind?

[vazerd68]

ANY stats buff not avalable to a f2p player makes the game P2W.

I agree with your statement. DE seem to have forgotten that the chain isn't  force people to pay -> more money , but rather  make you game fun/fair/enjoyable -> players like it/recommend it/invest in it on they own volition -> more money

[tripletriple]

14 hours ago, Siideriu said:

And Vauban is the hardest of the non-primes. Again, I don't see a problem here, Sibear is bad weapon but it's new content, its only value being the extra mastery to those who have already maximized everything else. Ten hours, or more blatantly 30.000 Cryotic is nothing for those players. The rest of us will get it eventually.

Making excuses for blatant grind increase doesn't make it right. The siberia for its cost, has no where near the proper return. Not only that but it's absurd to think it's okay to grind 10 hours for one weapon.

Vauban might be the hardest warframe to obtain, but he doesn't cost 80 dollars, has no grind associated with his parts and has easily farmed resources.

How you thought the two are comparable is beyond me.

Edited May 21, 2016 by tripletriple

[Sunfaiz]

4 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

You have him now. Great.  That means he's easier to get than original version.  That you have him crafted or are crafting him now kinda defeats all the arguments about craft grinding.  Especially given the time that he was released.  So, since you have crafted him 3 days after release, why is everyone whining about the grind?

Because I went through S#&$ and back to get him. Because of  sheer amount of things that drop from T3S. Because of DE's Lies about the table don't have space. Like are you @(*()$ Kidding me ? You make it fairly obvious that you don't play your game, do you think we don't either ?  Do you think we don't see the lies ?

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, vazerd68 said:

you game fun/fair/enjoyable -> players like it/recommend it/invest in it on they own volition -> more money

Sadly, that doesn't work so well in the real world.  If people think they can get something (items or services) for free, they will continue to use it until it isn't free anymore.  Then complain about it not being free when the company need the revenue to survive.  I've seen it happen to many times.  It's even happened to me.  Sony's PSN is a recent example.  They had to start charging to cover the costs of increased security. 

Your suggestion is nice in theory, but I wouldn't bet my next meal on it.   It's not a guaranteed survival tactic.  Well, at least not for most businesses. 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2016 by DatDarkOne
additions

[DatDarkOne]

15 minutes ago, Sunfaiz said:

Because I went through S#&$ and back to get him. Because of  sheer amount of things that drop from T3S. Because of DE's Lies about the table don't have space. Like are you @(*()$ Kidding me ? You make it fairly obvious that you don't play your game, do you think we don't either ?  Do you think we don't see the lies ?

Not to knock your accomplishment, but I wish I had that much free time.