Where DE went wrong. Increasing grind /= more money!

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

6 hours ago, Rueian said:

Actually, skipping all of the filler content to get to end game is what any hardcore player would do. 

Why the devs put hard blocks to prevent them from eating through the content and leaving, too. Furor should know now after all the years what SOE did to make content last, especially when he went on his nasty threat tirade (but apparently not, as the same rage exists about Paladins there).

Raiders careless of anything but that carrot. They didn't play the MMORPG as a RPG, they just went for the unlocks and gear. Conditioned from the shooters in the day, and min-maxed their way to "end-game". That has cheapen the RPG experience, where dungeons and raids weren't even looked for their content, just the "challenge" and loot. Making a game revolve around that 10% is a miserable experience for players who savor the whole package and it's lore, and WoW did just that until late in the franchise. The "red shirt" guy episode at Blizzcon was the epitome of the split in the community on the subject, and it's rearing it's head in Warframe with looters vs. RPGness (Warframe is an action shooter, but it also borrows RPG concepts, making it a hybrid shooter style game like Deus Ex with a touch of EvE). The conflict is here again, as chasing carrots isn't enough for RPGers; while the shooter/looter side burns through content wanting more ever 2 weeks, and never satisfied as it's always a race to some end (bypassing everything in between. I wouldn't want to be an artist in this industry for all that work to be yesterday's trash in so little time, too).

Shared space is for all, but let's face it people are going to be dissatisfied that their interests aren't going to be fulfilled on their timetables. But people have to realized production takes time, even the billion dollar studios can't get the content out as fast as players consume it. One cost saving design, and 100000000001 players caught it and wag their finger, meanwhile demanding "original" content they're not willing to wait for, anyway. Worse, a subset wants it all for free, too.

This Nitain craze is that subset, and frankly it looks just as bad as the P2W schemes out there. People who talk big, but so ignorant of the process and how/why it exists, and frankly don't care BUT for self-interests. Why players can't have nice things, because those few ruin it all for the rest.

[Rueian]

21 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Why players can't have nice things, because those few ruin it all for the rest.

The paywall is what ruins it for people.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

4 minutes ago, Rueian said:

The paywall is what ruins it for people.

For that subset who looks at gaming "what I can get for free".

Developers created a monster, and it's just another example in how/why they do have to be careful in what they produce. Or cancer will develop, and they simply can't do chemotherapy to save the patient, it consumes everything around them in the end (and the people coming in aren't infinite to replace who's going out, too).

[Rueian]

26 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

For that subset who looks at gaming "what I can get for free".

Developers created a monster, and it's just another example in how/why they do have to be careful in what they produce. Or cancer will develop, and they simply can't do chemotherapy to save the patient, it consumes everything around them in the end (and the people coming in aren't infinite to replace who's going out, too).

The people who pay should never be the main focus of the game.  it is a F2P game... there should never be an outright advantage to people who pay EVER.

[Necrius]

1 hour ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Why the devs put hard blocks to prevent them from eating through the content and leaving, too.

Content that requires such hard blocks to last is bad.

[Gulftown]

9 hours ago, Rueian said:

Actually, skipping all of the filler content to get to end game is what any hardcore player would do.

ROFL. Playing current content != hardcore. Raiding seven nights a week for four hours a day approaches the definition. Stop embarrassing yourself any further.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

1 hour ago, Rueian said:

The people who pay should never be the main focus of the game.  it is a F2P game... there should never be an outright advantage to people who pay EVER.

Well, that will never happen. Because if there's no money, there's no content. The devs aren't going to trade crunch time for nothing. It doesn't work like that!

It's a balance to pay, and to keep traffic going. But if there's less people buying and more people getting something for free, you won't have a game anymore.

[Voltage]

On May 20, 2016 at 7:20 AM, DoomFruit said:

Yes, they are. Sure, if you spend your entire day slaving away on Triton or wherever the current boring core farm is, you might have a surplus of cryotic... but what about the players (example: my entire 50-member clan) who don't give a flying crap about cores and don't spend every waking minute farming those worthless bloody things which have already caused a serious infection in the void drop tables. Exactly the same as with the knux - which my clan still doesn't have also because of the enormously expensive cryotic requirements.

no they aren't. 30000 cryotic is a lot to farm AT ONCE. If you play hieracon for cores and keys, you will get that needed cryotic on accident. 7,000 oxium isn't hard, I HAVE NEVER FARMED CERBERUS SINCE I STARTED and I have over 12k after I made Booben. 

 

My my friend is right, games now cater to the people that are impatient or don't have skill and want things handed to them. This is why Overwatch has a lot of sales because it is a game of 0 skill, same with call of duty. 

 

Warframe me isn't about getting gear day 1, it is about managing your time and making gear a goal. Go farm a location with the resource you need with a different intention. Only Vets, and people with over 1000 hours are the ones that get gear day 1 because they spent that 1000 hours saving up for future content. 

Edited May 25, 2016 by -CM-Voltage

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, Siideriu said:

ROFL. Playing current content != hardcore. Raiding seven nights a week for four hours a day approaches the definition. Stop embarrassing yourself any further.

4 hours to raid? I can do LoR in 14 minutes, LoR NM in 15 mins and JV in less than 20 mins. You are slow if you think that is end game is 4 hours worth of raids

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

3 minutes ago, -CM-Voltage said:

4 hours to raid? I can do LoR in 14 minutes, LoR NM in 15 mins and JV in less than 20 mins. You are slow if you think that is end game is 4 hours worth of raids

Huh? We're talking WoW hardcore, not Warframe. Raid night is hours there, and once a week per tier raids. The guy was saying he reached "end-game" hardcore LFR (lol) in 6 weeks, isn't the definition of hardcore raider there by any standard. It's like saying a mission is a raid in Warframe (LFR is story mode raiding with greatly reduced difficulty below normal raids, so folks can get the story that was denied to 90% of the game before).

[Horonelius]

10 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

but not piss the player off enough to say 'screw this, there are a thousand other games to play'

Exactly. You want a fine balance.

[DatDarkOne]

8 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Well, that will never happen. Because if there's no money, there's no content. The devs aren't going to trade crunch time for nothing. It doesn't work like that!

It's a balance to pay, and to keep traffic going. But if there's less people buying and more people getting something for free, you won't have a game anymore.

I don't know why this simple concept is so hard for people to understand.  It's not just with this game but in general.  I would love to give free Tech Consultations because I like helping people.  I can't do that and still feed myself.  A product is offered.  Some kind of support has to go to the production or there will be NO PRODUCT. Once this is realized, then everything else should make much more sense. 

Edited May 25, 2016 by DatDarkOne
grammar

[BuddaOfLife]

The cost for VP is fine it just means i wont bother killing myself to get it.

Its not like its an endgame viable frame anyway according to what ive been told by the clan and the net so it will sit there till i need to complete it...

No i wont buy it, i get the prime access and getting money etc but when i saw £93 for it complete i was like wtf thats half the money i have left each month to keep a roof above my head etc. 

I get it DE needs to make money but im starting to hear far to many im leaving warframe posts around the net lately and its a bad sign.

Usually before a game takes a huge downturn because they pissed of the majority of their playerbase.

 

More worrying than the cost of VP was the blatant lets shove all the parts in the worst fecking places in the void again just to piss of more people.

Rotation C all over again.

Does DE have any idea how sick to death we are of doing the same level over and over again.

You have all the derelict which no one hardly plays and you could rework the levels to stop taxi jumping to draco and so people have to progress in the game based on MR. You could even sort the damn void out so it gets used properly. Not just the same bits.

I hope to god this rework for the planets is good but im not holding my breath.

 

I get it you guys care about the game, you can see you do, but whatever has changed lately is a bad trend.

But please do something as your beginning to worry a lot of people.

 

It will be a shame if this game becomes another P2Much has been game like a lot of others are going, ive really enjoyed a big part of the 640 hrs and £60 ish ive put into it.

Edited May 25, 2016 by BuddaOfLife

[KirukaChan]

19 hours ago, Horonelius said:

Ideally you would just want to piss a player off to the point where they break down and just buy Prime Access.

Nothing DE does will ever make me buy Prime Access. I bought plat bundles when I rolled a good discount on login, and I bought a Steam plat bundle a couple of times when they went on sale. A big chunk of the cost of Prime Access is the 3 month boosters, which aren't worth anything to me. I'd rather just buy whatever parts I need through the Trading channel, since I have around 4,000 plat to my name and I've already spent around $150 on Warframe, which is more than I've spent on any other game.

I'll consider spending more money if I ever run out of plat, which isn't likely to happen for quite a while since I also sell things in Trading.

[Aebara]

I haven't read this entire thread, but I did want to put in my two cents, for all the good it'll do, since it's quite clear that DE doesn't care.

I've been playing this game regularly for about a year now. I have about 900 hours recorded in my profile, and 1500+ recorded on Steam. I've put too much time and effort in, as I do whenever I get into a loot game--it's one of the reasons I try not to play them. I'm currently MR18, and I've got a fairly substantial proportion of the weapons and frames to be gotten in this game. I've even actually sunk real money into this game. I won't say how much, but it's more than I would have paid for it had it been released as a cohesive whole at retail, rather than a F2P thing.

My current experience for the last three or four months in Warframe has been this: I log in. I farm for an hour or more at a time trying to get one of two types of Void keys that I want; I fail to get either. I then spend up to an hour waiting on the recruiting channel to see if somebody will host one of those two mission types; usually I won't find anybody, and when I do, the squad is full by the time I manage to click on the host's name to ask for an invitation. If I'm very lucky, I'll get a chance to do a single run in that entire time, which will inevitably fail to give me the part I'm looking for. I then log out for the day, only to repeat the process again--except that each time I come away a little more bitter, which comes through in the way I talk about the game to others.

This is not the way to keep your customers interested in a game, DE. Far from giving you more money to reduce my frustrations, this sort of experience makes me want to give up. I would have a long time ago, in fact, were it not for the fact that a couple of irl friends still occasionally play.

You have some very good gameplay underneath the mountains of grind. If you could just figure out some way to reward time, effort, or even skill, you would have an excellent product. As it is, what you have is a formula to alienate both new players and old.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

2 minutes ago, Aebara said:

You have some very good gameplay underneath the mountains of grind. If you could just figure out some way to reward time, effort, or even skill, you would have an excellent product. As it is, what you have is a formula to alienate both new players and old.

You're playing the game wrong!

Meanwhile, an hour of Hieracon will give you Void keys, your Cryotic, R5 cores and more. It's practically handed to you.

Again MR rating, skill and play time is NOT an indication someone even knows where to get A or B, but it doesn't stop them from complaining it's TOO BORING/HARD!

[tripletriple]

2 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

You're playing the game wrong!

Meanwhile, an hour of Hieracon will give you Void keys, your Cryotic, R5 cores and more. It's practically handed to you.

Again MR rating, skill and play time is NOT an indication someone even knows where to get A or B, but it doesn't stop them from complaining it's TOO BORING/HARD!

Since when has being boring not been a legitimate criticism or opinion. A game is meant to be fun. If it's boring something is wrong. 

You are reaching for straws.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

13 minutes ago, tripletriple said:

Since when has being boring not been a legitimate criticism or opinion. A game is meant to be fun. If it's boring something is wrong. 

You are reaching for straws.

It's not that you don't have an opinion ... others have their opinions, too.

But when you play the game enough and know the that "I couldn't get the Void keys" isn't true, makes a player say, "You're playing the game wrong!"

Void keys drop like candy in endless missions. I got my stockpile of T4 keys at Hieracon, doing what I like doing, sending the undead (or tumored living disease) back to the grave. You may not like doing Hieracon or other farming spots, but that doesn't mean the keys are hard to obtain. It does mean going out to get them, though ... in the right instances.

[DoomFruit]

22 hours ago, -CM-Voltage said:

no they aren't. 30000 cryotic is a lot to farm AT ONCE. If you play hieracon for cores and keys, you will get that needed cryotic on accident. 7,000 oxium isn't hard, I HAVE NEVER FARMED CERBERUS SINCE I STARTED and I have over 12k after I made Booben.

I don't play hieracon. I hate excavation, have absolutely zero use for cores and get all the keys I need through syndicate packs and spy missions. I don't farm cerberus either, but I wasn't saying anything about oxium.

[Roachester]

12 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

It's not that you don't have an opinion ... others have their opinions, too.

But when you play the game enough and know the that "I couldn't get the Void keys" isn't true, makes a player say, "You're playing the game wrong!"

Void keys drop like candy in endless missions. I got my stockpile of T4 keys at Hieracon, doing what I like doing, sending the undead (or tumored living disease) back to the grave. You may not like doing Hieracon or other farming spots, but that doesn't mean the keys are hard to obtain. It does mean going out to get them, though ... in the right instances.

Call me crazy, but I think you're just proving his point.

[P0TAT0CANN0N]

On 5/19/2016 at 8:10 PM, tripletriple said:

Recently an issue has seemingly divided the community. With the release of Vauban prime and his outrageous crafting and farming investment, many believe that DE has over stepped thier boundaries on what is considered consumer friendly. Some say the costs are fine and that it should be hard to obtain him. DE needs to sell their prime access, so they make it extremely difficult for us to simply get it easily for free.  I believe the grind has gotten out of control with many of my friends quitting because of it. 

[DE]Drew released a very well written statement about DE's side of things and while it is interesting to see their side of things I am not convinced that burning out your players is the only solution they have. Granted they are a company and need to make money, the most successful F2P games have always remained fair.  

Argon is a great concept. Making the resource disappear allows it always to be needed. Instead of a pay wall, like nitain, another argon like resource should have been released and been a guaranteed drop at rotation C. Making it less about rng, but still requiring you to make an investment with your time. Then simply make it so that the blueprint doesn't require an overwhelming amount of them. 

DE, please don't shaft us to sell your products. Your biggest problem lies with your prime access bundle. It is simply underwhelming. You need to introduce some exclusive skins and items that are included in the package. Make them shiny, give them elements that are not in the game yet. Maybe, small boosts in stats like + 0.2 movement speed, or 50 base energy is not pay2win. Make a syandana as bright as the sun, and make unicorns come out of it. While I am exaggerating, the point is that you need to make your packages more enticing for people to buy, instead of simply getting the individual pieces. 

DE we love you, and we know you need to make money, just please find different alternatives over making us deal with months of failed rng and grind. 

 

 

Yes to all of it except the stat boosts. That is pay to win and that is not appreciated in the least.

[P0TAT0CANN0N]

16 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

It's not that you don't have an opinion ... others have their opinions, too.

But when you play the game enough and know the that "I couldn't get the Void keys" isn't true, makes a player say, "You're playing the game wrong!"

Void keys drop like candy in endless missions. I got my stockpile of T4 keys at Hieracon, doing what I like doing, sending the undead (or tumored living disease) back to the grave. You may not like doing Hieracon or other farming spots, but that doesn't mean the keys are hard to obtain. It does mean going out to get them, though ... in the right instances.

So if someone plays the right gamemode for about 5 missions and then RNG decides to screw em then they are playing the game wrong?

I think you need to reevaluate your thinking.

[Aebara]

23 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

You're playing the game wrong!

Meanwhile, an hour of Hieracon will give you Void keys, your Cryotic, R5 cores and more. It's practically handed to you.

Again MR rating, skill and play time is NOT an indication someone even knows where to get A or B, but it doesn't stop them from complaining it's TOO BORING/HARD!

I'm playing Hieracon (as well as excavation missions that actually have higher odds of giving me the specific keys I'm after--not everyone wants nothing but T4s). And I get plenty of keys I have 30+ of, but the ones I might actually need? Maybe once every other day on average. And I don't need cryotic or cores, thanks for asking.

Look, I know you've got your whole white knight thing going on, and that's great, but this? This is a problem with the game, not me.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

5 hours ago, P0TAT0CANN0N said:

So if someone plays the right gamemode for about 5 missions and then RNG decides to screw em then they are playing the game wrong?

I think you need to reevaluate your thinking.

If you can't play the right game mode and get the mats for crafting, yes, that's playing the game wrong.

2k of Oxium in about 3 runs, without boosts, is playing the game right.

Coming to the forum that 10 runs for 7k of Oxium (or only arriving to get the latest gear and missed all the alerts and potatoes) as "too much work" that is playing the game wrong.

Next the threads will be asking for the latest frame/gear to be handed to them for free just logging in. That's not even gaming, that's the definition of gear welfare!

[Chipputer]

1 hour ago, Aebara said:

I know you've got your whole white knight thing going on

I wouldn't call them a white knight. They raise a few good points, but their point falls apart when they tell people they're playing the game wrong.

Yes, it's most efficient to do missions that give you multiple rewards that you need (keys, cryotic, and a chance at a stance you'd like, for example), but no, it's not your fault that RNG screwed you over and you didn't get any Mobile Defense keys, or something along those lines.

The main problem, here, is that people are seeing a phantom increase in the amount of grind due to bigger numbers being required here or there. The point of requiring resources that most people don't particularly, "enjoy farming," is to emphasize other game types and play styles to get people to actually participate in all the modes of play. This is why they're also making Lunaro-- they need a gateway into PvP interaction for people who are turned off by deathmatch modes.