Efficiency makes Ability 4 outclass the other 3.

[Jin_Kazama]

I feel as though the frames below have a problem where the fourth ability does so much in terms of what the frames supposed to be used for, that it completely renders all of the other abilities as useless since efficiency makes them just as spammable as the others.

The best example here in my opinion could be Valkyr.

1st ability - Pull enemies 50 miles behind you from where they are + do more damage the more its used.
2nd ability - Gain armor that scales, slows enemies around the casting area, and makes you melee faster.
3rd ability - Roar that puts enemies in finisher state but shreds your shields instead of a good amount of energy.

4th ability - Becoming absolutely invulnerable to all types of damage, do huge amounts of melee only damage that scales off melee mods, and with expected efficiency build can be kept up for whole missions at a time.   No point of her health/ huge base armor, no point of the 3 shredding her shields.

--Possible solution-- Instead of draining her energy in her 4, why not keep her invulnerable but let it drain 10 health per second instead? Unscaleable with anything and she cant pick up health orbs.

Of course other frames have this same problem.

Excalibur doesn't need his 1,2 or 3 because his 4 can be kept up for obscenely long with efficiency/duration, and he can blind enemies with slide attack. Oh, and he can kill people long range with melee.

--Possible solution-- Remove the scaling of efficiency/duration, but keep it the same otherwise.

Ash doesnt need his 1, 2 or 3 because his 4 at the low low cost of 25 energy makes him invulnerable whilst he stabs up whole crowds until every single one is dead. (Plus he usually picks up at least one energy orb in the fray giving him it back instantly.)

TLDR: With how high Warframe energy can actually go, i feel as though efficiency breaks the usage of certain frames' abilities and renders them with only one real useable ability.

Of course this is all only my opinion of course. So don't jump at meh.

 

[Hypernaut1]

I use all of Ash's and Excalibur's abilities. 

I dont think power spam is an issue, but I do feel some abilities could synergize better with their ults

[Jin_Kazama]

Just now, Hypernaut1 said:

I use all of Ash's and Excalibur's abilities. 

I dont think power spam is an issue, but I do feel some abilities could synergize better with their ults

I know that people use all of their abilities, even i do,  but what you said second is exactly my point, abilities need to synergize with the ults, not outclass them :D

[Epicagemo]

12 minutes ago, Jin_Kazama said:

I know that people use all of their abilities, even i do,  but what you said second is exactly my point, abilities need to synergize with the ults, not outclass them :D

I'd rather not have them synergize, as that makes something like Saryn in which may shift the "role" of her frame. Having abilities with different utility, is more valid reason to create an ability, like the point you made with Valkyr in your first posting.

[Azamagon]

You mention Valkyr, but in contrast to many other Warframes, her abilities actually synergize:
Ripline gives her mobility - A good thing for when you are using your melee-only ulti
Warcry increases melee attack speed (the armor is wasted though) - A nice boost to your melee-only ulti
Paralysis stuns enemies and opens for finishers - Makes your melee-only ulti capable of destroying tough enemies in no time, and keep others in place so you can continue shredding them.

If you REALLY wanted to make some good examples:

Vauban's Minelayer - Besides Concuss being able to radiate enemies (good against Ancients), and Shred giving a superbrief armorreduction, the 2 other mines are nigh useless when Vortex and Bastille exist (and even Bastille contra Vortex are almost making each other redundant!)

Hydroid's Tempest Barrage - Why not just use Tentacle Swarm? It's way more powerful, lasts a lot longer and with its augment gives you more loot. Tempest Barrage doesn't even have the deceny to be a onehanded cast!

Ash's Shuriken - Only decent use it has is to snag weak enemies without needing to aim, like Corpus cameras and such. It unfortunately has zero utility (non-augmented), which is a shame. Due to that, Bladestorm beats it so insanely hard it's not even funny. Its onehanded cast and the fact that it doesn't take your control away is its only saving grace... but it doesn't really mean that much in the end.

There's more than that, but that's all I can think of right now.
But this is not just a problem with efficiency, it's more so a problem with the abilities often having too many effects in one ability (often the ultimate) which often also do their stuff in a HUGE area, while the slightly cheaper abilities most often don't do enough AND most often only affect few targets. Each ability should have a clear strength and useage in a Warframe's kit. If ultimates were stopped being treated as ultimates, and rather just as another ability in the kit, then maybe the useage of all abilities in a Warframe's kit could become more varied, flexible and fun.

[Azamagon]

4 minutes ago, Epicagemo said:

I'd rather not have them synergize, as that makes something like Saryn in which may shift the "role" of her frame. Having abilities with different utility, is more valid reason to create an ability, like the point you made with Valkyr in your first posting.

There is a big difference between FORCED synergy (a.k.a. codependency, like in Saryn's kit) and NATURAL synergy (like Valkyr's and Loki's)

I'm all for natural synergy, while I think that forced synergy should really be kept at an absolute minimum.

[Jin_Kazama]

15 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

There is a big difference between FORCED synergy (a.k.a. codependency, like in Saryn's kit) and NATURAL synergy (like Valkyr's and Loki's)

I'm all for natural synergy, while I think that forced synergy should really be kept at an absolute minimum.

The reason why i feel the problem is for efficiency, is because it completely changes the Frames natural playstyle But also restricts players creativity with builds because of how good it is.

For example, Valkyrs abilities i'm pretty sure weren't just designed for use with her 4, but because efficiency enables her to stay in her invulnerable 4 state for the whole mission , thats now what their usage is. Just boosters for her 4, not even really needed.

Her Ripline was good for mobility back in Parkour 1.0, since bullet jump and infinite wall climb, its just a gimmick in my opinion.

2's a booster for 4

3's a booster for 4

By restriction of creativity btw, i mean that its just so good, and has so little downside that its pretty much a guaranteed thing on any build. (Like serration, i COULLDD get more fire rate, but damage is needed)

P.S : i think that frames should either have abilities that are all completely different an fulfil different roles (like Loki,Nyx, Ember, Atlas etc) Or have abilities that evolve around their 4's and/or  change them/synergise well with them (Saryn/Ivara/Mesa etc)

Edited May 21, 2016 by Jin_Kazama

[Toramaru]

On 20/05/2016 at 10:16 PM, Epicagemo said:

I'd rather not have them synergize, as that makes something like Saryn in which may shift the "role" of her frame. Having abilities with different utility, is more valid reason to create an ability, like the point you made with Valkyr in your first posting.

I'm sorry but I definitely don't agree with you. Players are supposed to build their frames to their convenience, following minor leads. If the game sets a frame for a role by hard coding that into the system it's bad game design.

[hukurokuju5]

its more of an issue of some warframes having a "most useful skill"  and then the other skills having scaling that competes directly with the "most useful skill", but having no other redeeming qualities.  Also, many warframes have skills that are downright unusable or impossibly weak.

 

an example of directly competing skills in a kit:

vauban

1 not even going to talk about this

2  small aoe cc, 1 time use for the most part

3  huge aoe cc, long lasting

4  huge aoe cc, long lasting

vaubans 2 competes directly with 3 and 4.  in comparison, the skill attributes are the same, yet bastille and vortex beat out 2 in both categories of CC duration and range.  

 

energy efficiency makes it easier for players to use the more powerful options more frequently, but.....it would be more efficient to use those more powerful skills over the weaker ones regardless......  meaning that efficiency is not the problem.  weak and directly competing skill mechanics make for press 4 kind of play