Dev Workshop: Passives, Volt, Mag & More!

[BloodForTheBloodGods]

3 minutes ago, NyxOOX said:

It's entirely possible that I'm misunderstanding what you're suggesting, but if I'm not, you're suggesting that Ember repeatedly lights herself on fire when she lights enemies on fire.

If this is true, I must ask, are you completely out of your mind?

Clearly you have not played Hellborn Krieg. You'll also be regening health from the damage you do. Perhaps the lifesteal rate could be tweaked, but I was just giving an example. The idea is to get around the fact only certain mobs will fire proc you. This way you will always be fire proc'ing yourself, gaining the extra power str/damage, to regen more health to damage more.

Edited May 27, 2016 by BloodForTheBloodGods
Re-iteration

[DarkOvion]

3 minutes ago, BloodForTheBloodGods said:

Clearly you have not played Hellborn Krieg. You'll also be regening health from the damage you do. Perhaps the lifesteal rate could be tweaked, but I was just giving an example. The idea is to get around the fact only certain mobs will fire proc you. This way you will always be fire proc'ing yourself, gaining the extra power str/damage, to regen more health to damage more.

will it work like Energy Conversion?

Get yourself on fire + pick up an enrgy orb +85% power strength for your 4th...

[Cytobel]

7 minutes ago, NyxOOX said:

It's entirely possible that I'm misunderstanding what you're suggesting, but if I'm not, you're suggesting that Ember repeatedly lights herself on fire when she lights enemies on fire.

If this is true, I must ask, are you completely out of your mind?

They're giving Volt a set damage number passive, after talking about power strength.  What do you think?

Either that or EVERYTHING is getting more plushified than a fur-con.

[travaca]

5 minutes ago, DarkOvion said:

Rift Surge allows you to counter the damage fall off.

My Sancti Tigris does something silly like 140,000 damage with Rift Surge on....

What mob, lvl and whats your damage on your sancti?

[Arkvold]

On 5/25/2016 at 7:10 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Volt:

Time to truly make Volt 'an alternative to gunplay' – Warframe Description, 2012.

First, Volt gets a passive (listed below).

Shock remains untouched as 'it’s a pretty great first ability' – [DE]Scott. The love of zapping is eternal.

Speed most noticeably has had its FOV reduced on cast, which should help with motion sickness complaints. Other players in range now get to 'opt-in' to Volt's Speed buff, by activating a pickup that Volt leaves behind on cast. This activation occurs on contact.

Shield will be receiving a graphic overhaul to improve the look of casting, ambient effects, and its effect on projectiles that pass through. Shield now offers strong synergies if Shock is cast through it – it charges the shield with Electric damage which will hurt enemies that come in contact. As a late-addition driven by player demand, Shield can now be picked up with a context action which limits weapon usage and drains energy.

Overload still spreads out from Volt in a wave, and enemies who come into contact are turned into stationary 'Tesla Coils' that arc and zap nearby enemies in range. Damage is dealt to the enemy-turned- Tesla Coil and its targets. Loot crates can also be turned into Coils, but they only have one charge. Casting Shock on Tesla Coil causes an AOE burst.

For comprehensive gameplay of these changes in an earlier iteration, tune into our past Devstreams.

Fair warning, this post will likely wind up as a wall of text.  There's a lot I'd like to respond to.

Mostly, I'm okay with this Volt rework.  Shock could possibly use a look at its chaining mechanics and damage output.  It's not very strong for its energy cost (compare the damage it deals versus other damage-dealing 1 abilities, and it's difficult to tell just what it will chain to after the first victim.  I love zapping enemies, I just wish it DID more under most circumstances.  The rework helps with that by giving Shock some utility when it's used on your Shield and on Overloaded enemies, but if Volt's going to have "a potent alternative to gunplay" then he needs a first power that he can use regularly and on a wide variety of targets.  Right now, anything stronger than a Crewman, Lancer, Hellion, or Trooper basically ignores Shock's direct damage.  Even at 145% power strength (the highest you can get without corrupt mods), it's useless on bombards, comba, scrambus, eviscerators, or anything heavier.

Being able to pick up and carry shield is fantastic, but make it cost energy or limit you to your secondary weapon, not both.  I can understand being limited to your secondary as you need the other hand to hold up the shield, but shield already has a duration; it doesn't really need energy drain on top of that,  Maybe lower its duration if it's not properly attached to a surface?

Overload turning enemies into immobile shock-spreaders is fantastic, and it's honestly what Overload should've done to begin with.  With this, Volt has some valuable crowd control as well as anti-group firepower, and the ability to synergize Shock onto it for even more AoE goodness is a marked improvement.  More warframes need abilities that help out their other abilities.  Learn from the goodness that is Saryn.

Speed... speed's always going to be controversial.  Lessening the FOV distortion effect is a blessing (I run with FOV effects OFF for this very reason), but I'm worried about the opt-in nature of Volt being tied to a pickup.  Why not have a context prompt of "X: Accept Speed" appear for a second or two while an electrical crackle plays around your character.  If you don't want speed, just don't hit X.  If you do, hit it and zoom, away you go!  Otherwise, speed should not be touched.

I really like the idea of Volt's passive being literally shooting static electricity.  Running around is something Volt always does, and everyone attacks enemies.  This is a good passive, applicable to a wide variety of functions and will constantly see use, even if you don't actively try to use it.  It also helps Volt on Capture missions, since that first shot you get off after chasing down the target will have an extra bit of electrical oomph to it, and so will all the other shots you fire while chasing him down!

 

Mag:

Mag's role as a one-trick Corpus pony is controversially discussed. The emergence of high-level Corpus Sorties projected the spotlight on her, and we decided to approach her revision in a way that simply makes all her abilities more engaging in more places.

Mag also gets a passive (listed below).

Pull remains mostly the same as before. If an enemy is magnetized, bonus damage is dealt. Kills have a bonus chance of dropping energy, while cause enemies to experience almost physics-defying deaths.

Magnetize (previously Bullet Attractor) will root the target in place. Damage over time is dealt to all enemies within a set radius, with the amount of damage based on how far from the center of the Magnetized they are. A percentage of the damage of absorbed bullets/projectiles/shrapnel will be used to increase the DOT. Up to 4 targets can be Magnetized at this time.

Polarize now spreads like Nova’s Molecular Prime. Targets with shields will take shield damage, while targets with armour take health damage and a permanent armour debuff. Targets will emit a piece or two of shrapnel which can be used to create synergies with Mag's other abilities.

Crush will now deal bonus damage to magnetized enemies.

For comprehensive gameplay of these changes in an earlier iteration, tune into our past Devstreams.

Mag's role as a one-trick Corpus pony might make her a one-trick Corpus pony, but take note: it's a really Clem-good trick.  Mess with her ability to utterly destroy Corpus and you're going to have a lot of unhappy Mag players.

One thing I'd like clarified: by "magnetized" do you mean "affected by her new Magnetize power" or "under the effect of a magnetic proc" or both?

Pull was, and is, a pretty good power.  Acceptable damage, outstanding crowd control, hilarious to use.  A little inconvenient for allies who are carefully aiming at a target, but come on they're knocked down now - line up a new shot and fire!  It sounds like the rework isn't changing this much, which is music to my ears.

Magnetize... I'm a little iffy on.  Does Magnetize keep bullet attractor's ability to attract bullets?  Probably a dumb question, but when you totally change a power down to the name, I like a thorough explanation of how the new power works.  When you shoot a magnetized enemy, do they take less damage in order to increase the DoT, or do they take full damage and the DoT increases based on the damage dealt?  If Magnetize reduces the amount of damage enemies take, there's going to be a lot of salt thrown at this power when it drops.

Polarize is, well, the reason Mag existed against Corpus foes.  Mag popularity is going to drop precipitously and you're going to see a lot of salt if you've changed the effect this has on enemies with shields.  I do appreciate the addition of the health damage/armor debuff if there are no shields to mess with; it gives Mag some notable use on Grineer.

As for Crush, it's cool that it deals more damage to magnetized enemies (again, clarify if this either a magnetic proc or the actual Magnetize power or both), but right now it's just Rhino Stomp or Reckoning with greater damage spread over three ticks and a damage type that's only useful on Corpus and Corrupted.  Mag already has a decent damage/crowd control power in the form of Pull, so it's questionable just what Crush, even with the bonus damage, brings to the table that Pull doesn't already do more efficiently.

Maybe consider allowing Crush to deal significantly more damage the more electric-related status effects are on an enemy (Electric Procs, Radiation Procs, Magnetic Procs, Magnetize, Polarize, Tesla effect from Volt's new Overload) - that way if you have an enemy that simply MUST die, you can stack a bunch of effects on him first and then Crush him and his buddies all at once.

Mag's new passive is completely underwhelming.  Carrier already exists, and if equipped (and note, Carrier is the single most-equipped sentinel as far as I'm aware, and one of if not the most equipped Companion period), it will totally invalidate her passive.  How about letting her deal more damage when shooting enemies with active magnetic, electric, or radiation procs, passively using magnetism to accelerate or concentrate her shots?  She's good at applying magnetic procs herself, and it would let her synergize well with Oberon and Volt, or anyone with an anti-Grineer elemental loadout (typically Rad/Viral).

 

Now as for the Passives.  My thoughts on each one are in Italics beneath the passive.

 

Ash: Bleed Procs dealt by Ash from any source are 25% deadlier and last 50% longer.

Most will see this as a Bladestorm buff, and it is, but it's also a buff to Shuriken, which is a seriously underperforming power compared to the rest of his abilities.  It also firmly cements Ash as the King of Slash Damage.  I'm quite alright with this one.

 

Banshee: All weapons are treated as silent.

This one's iffy.  I know you're trying to say, "Banshee is a stealth frame without invisibility" but when one of your powers effectively gives you this effect anyway, it's of questionable usefulness.  Silence is not golden in this game, it's barely silver.  Invisibility is golden, and the ability to force melee finishers whenever you clem well want to is pure platinum.  Consider this - have all shots fired by Banshee function like Ivara's distraction arrow: they don't alert enemies, but enemies do wander over to the impact site to investigate.  This would let Banshee distract enemies via clever ventriloquism, and let her control when enemies are looking at her - essential if you want to stealth without actual invisbility.

 

Ember: Receiving a Heat Status effect will regenerate energy for the duration of the Status effect (10 energy per second) and increase Power Strength by 35%.

I would unapologetically LOVE this effect... if Ember had some means of applying a fire proc to herself reliably without risking suicide.  As it stands, it's intensely situational.  Only maps with fire hazards would really allow you to make use of this on-demand, and of all the enemies in the game, only five can inflict fire procs and three of those are Grineer.  Consider something else, or give Ember some means of applying a weak fire proc to herself in order to take advantage of this.

 

Hydroid: Every Melee Ground-Slam has a 50% chance to lure a Tentacle that will last 15 seconds.

Unbelievably niche and does nothing to fix Hydroid's issues.  Why do people use tentacle swarm?  Because of the Pilfering Swarm augment.  If you don't have the augment to be a Pilfroid, Tentacle Swarm is generally inferior to almost any other location-targetted AoE.  Giving Hydroid a chance to summon a mini Tentacle Swarm on his ground slams (for Clem's sake, he's too squishy to be in melee in the first place!) doesn't help him, since the tentacle won't Pilfroid for him.  Consider this instead: Hydroid's a pirate, right?  Yarr and such, got to plunder the spoils of mine enemies.  Maybe give him a damage or health/shield buff that rises as he collects credits during a mission.  He's motivated by wealth.  You could make it 1% for every 500 credits he scoops up, with a cap at, say, 30% bonus at 15,000 credits, and importantly it resets if he goes down and isn't revived.

 

Limbo*: Holster Speed and Reload Speed is 50% faster while in the Rift, and movement speed increases by 10% while in the Rift.

I really don't have much of an opinion on this one, other than it seems underwhelming.  Holster speed and movement speed aren't too valuable of stats IMO, especially if it only applies in the Rift.  After all, you can prepare your weaponry BEFORE throwing enemies into the rift plane along with you.  Really, I'd consider a passive that increases Limbo's survivability in the Rift, allowing him to be a better assassin by being able to outlast even the most dangerous enemies so long as they're in his special parallel dimension with him.

 

Loki: 10x Wall-Cling duration!

Really niche, but honestly Loki is a tremendously powerful warframe even as he stands.  I'd be okay with this one.

 

Mag: Vacuum effect on every Bullet Jump.

Discussed my opinions of this on the Mag summary.

 

Nekros: Enemy death within 10 meters of Nekros regenerates a 5 Health.

This would be fantastic for a Despoil+Shield of Shadows Nekros, but 5 health per kill across 10m distance is pitiful.  Make it 10 health/kill across a 20m distance at least, enough that a Nekros with a Vitality mod put in will actually feel it and that it can reasonably offset a couple uses of Despoil.  As it stands, anything you Terrorize will run out of the effect's range before you can kill him and snack on his soul.

 

Nova: When Nova is down, she will knock down enemies in a 6 meter Radius.

A passive that requires you to die and enter bleedout to use it is terrible.  She's full of unstable antimatter, right?  How about she emit radiation/blast explosions when struck for health damage?  You'd probably have to cap how many explosions she can produce over a period of time, but it would be thematically appropriate and might help her survive if she gets surrounded while trying to Molecular Prime enemies or when she's distracted by controlling Antimatter Drop.  It would also help players realize "oh god, I'm exploding, my squishy butt is getting hit, I need to get out of here!"

 

Nyx: Enemies affected by any of Nyx's powers have a chance to lay down their weapon ( become disarmed ).

Since the disarm effect only occurs when Nyx's powers end, I'm totally okay with this passive.  It makes sense that the last order you'd give an enemy before you lose control over their mind would be "throw away your gun."  It's not much of a passive though, since it requires her to use her powers.  Maybe also make it so that enemies that shoot Nyx may find themselves randomly disarmed?  "What are you doing, Skrug!"  "I... can't bring myself to harm such a beautiful creature..."  Nyx is pretty squishy, and this would help her survivability a bit.

 

Oberon: All wildlife (neutral or enemy faction) within a 10 meter range of Oberon will become allies and fight for Oberon for 20 seconds.

BOOOOOOOOO. C'mon, why such a niche ability for a warframe that's already the whipping boy of balance discussions?  If he's Oberon, King of the Fae, then he should be the KING - not just some temporary beast master.  I mean, for Clem's sake, you could just have Oberon summon temporary allies when hit.  Let the Kingdom defend its King!

 

Trinity: Revive fallen allies faster from further away.

Simple, unique, and totally cements her role as White Mage of Warframes.  I wholeheartedly approve of this one.

 

Vauban: Other Warframes within 10 meters give you 25% bonus armour.

Blech.  While yeah, I like having more armor for durability purposes, a well-played Vauban typically has everything that can be affected by Bastille locked-down and unable to damage him.  Furthermore, this passive has no benefit in solo play.  Why not give Vauban something that would scale a bit better, like maybe a damage buff when shooting enemies that are immobile due to procs or warframe abilities?  It'd make electric procs (teslas!) more valuable to him since they force enemies to stand and twitch, and both blast and impact procs would be useful to him as well (an enemy knocked down is an enemy vulnerable to his opportunistic damage bonus).  Naturally, it'd also be great for wrecking anything caught in his Bastille.

 

Volt: Physical ground-travel distance between attacks causes bonus Electrical damage on next attack.

Discussed in my opinion of the Volt rework.

[BloodForTheBloodGods]

9 minutes ago, DarkOvion said:

will it work like Energy Conversion?

Get yourself on fire + pick up an enrgy orb +85% power strength for your 4th...

Exactly like that. It could really revitalise how people build and use ember.

Anyways, if you haven't played Borderlands 2, this is what I was referring to.
http://bl2skills.com/psycho.html#00000000000000000000000055555155151

I was trying to condense a whole skill tree into a simple passive for ember (becaue it seemed very similar). Krieg also gets a damage resistance along with other buffs while on fire. As long as you're doing damage and on fire, you were immortal.

[Hochstepanzerjager]

On 5/25/2016 at 6:25 PM, Melos-mevim said:

thank you oh so very very much for giving him the most worthless passive in the game! great for fighting only agaisnt one faction and only on lower level missions, ones so easy you can sleep through them and still win.

 

Seriously DE how was this a good idea? I thought you guys were getting away from frames being only useful against singular factions (case in point the mag rework)

I don't remember DE ever saying that Grineer were the only ones getting animals/wildlife, nor do I remember them saying they would restrict them to low levels. Maybe they know about something in the pipeline that hasn't been mentioned yet, that you don't and will make Obie's passive worth having?? Hmm, like the fact they announced last Devstream that they were planning to add more animals/wildlife to more maps?

 

I'd also like to point out Banshee just became the go-to stealth/spy frame with her passive.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Hochstepanzerjager

[Melos-mevim]

1 minute ago, Hochstepanzerjager said:

I don't remember DE ever saying that Grineer were the only ones getting animals/wildlife, nor do I remember them saying they would restrict them to low levels. Maybe they know about something in the pipeline that hasn't been mentioned yet, that you don't and will make Obie's passive worth having??

 

I'd also like to point out Banshee just became the go-to stealth/spy frame with her passive.

 

even with wild life on other factions its worthless... his kit already lets him turn enemies on each other

[Hochstepanzerjager]

Worthless to you maybe. Personally, I'd love to be able to give the middle finger to Drahk Masters.

[Melos-mevim]

1 minute ago, Hochstepanzerjager said:

Worthless to you maybe. Personally, I'd love to be able to give the middle finger to Drahk Masters.

cast smite on the drak master their pets will turn on them

 

there enjoy your middle finger and learn how to oberon

[CosmocoJones]

I share many of the same sentiments as the others on this, I believe, however, that frames should have many passives to further set them apart from one another. Thematic passives and elemental passives ontop of practical passives.

Elemental Passives

All frames that have elemental inclination should be entirely immune to that element and even be strengthened by it. Ember getting boosts is a good example, but also volt with grineer arc traps or Frost with the freezing cold of artic eximi and the cold atmosphere of pluto, Saryn to toxic/viral, Mag to magnetic, and Oberon to radiation despite how uncommon radiation is sometimes.

Thematic Passives

Oberon's animal friendship passive although not terribly useful besides hyekka and drahks is a really creative passive that adds to Oberon as a character. Other ideas for these thematic passives could be Nekros, upon falling, would cast a proc nearby that would cast viral (plague) radiation (war) and a health over time effect (famine). Really this is for creative character building passives

Practical Passives

This is where special care has to be taken to understand where frames are used and how they can be buffed to help them doing so. I think one of the best passives I've seen in a while is Inaros. Inaros' crowdcontrolling duty is aided by the fact that his passive allows him to go on fighting very well.

Oberon Side Note

Also Someone has already brought this up, but Oberon is split between being a healer and a fighter, but exceeds in neither. Being a jack of all trades really doesn't help when you have other diverse frames that can do much better. Trinity for example despite being the designated healer is also very tanky with the proper build while someone like Inaros or Ash is a much better fighter. A solid rework that allows Oberon to go down one road really is necessary. Oberon is probably one of the best looking and more interesting frames I've seen, but playing him is frankly somewhat boring.

[Arkvold]

15 minutes ago, Hochstepanzerjager said:

I'd also like to point out Banshee just became the go-to stealth/spy frame with her passive.

Nope - Loki with Hushed Invisibility still has her beat.  He's invisible, totally silent, and can use decoy/switch teleport to bypass laser barrier obstacles at-will.  Sure, Banshee with DE's proposed passive would be a better stealth frame than she was, but there's still nothing that stops her from being spotted if you walk in a door and the enemies are already looking her way and shoot, or if a camera's already pointed at her and alerts the entire room.

Maybe if you're comparing frames under Rank 3, then yeah I could see your point, but once Loki has Invisibility, the spy game is forever clinched in his favor.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Arkvold
Forgot that Warframes get their second ability at Unranked level at rank 3, not 5.

[Cytobel]

39 minutes ago, NyxOOX said:

23 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

Fair warning, this post will likely wind up as a wall of text.  There's a lot I'd like to respond to.

Mostly, I'm okay with this Volt rework.  Shock could possibly use a look at its chaining mechanics and damage output.  It's not very strong for its energy cost (compare the damage it deals versus other damage-dealing 1 abilities, and it's difficult to tell just what it will chain to after the first victim.  I love zapping enemies, I just wish it DID more under most circumstances.  The rework helps with that by giving Shock some utility when it's used on your Shield and on Overloaded enemies, but if Volt's going to have "a potent alternative to gunplay" then he needs a first power that he can use regularly and on a wide variety of targets.  Right now, anything stronger than a Crewman, Lancer, Hellion, or Trooper basically ignores Shock's direct damage.  Even at 145% power strength (the highest you can get without corrupt mods), it's useless on bombards, comba, scrambus, eviscerators, or anything heavier.

Being able to pick up and carry shield is fantastic, but make it cost energy or limit you to your secondary weapon, not both.  I can understand being limited to your secondary as you need the other hand to hold up the shield, but shield already has a duration; it doesn't really need energy drain on top of that,  Maybe lower its duration if it's not properly attached to a surface?

Overload turning enemies into immobile shock-spreaders is fantastic, and it's honestly what Overload should've done to begin with.  With this, Volt has some valuable crowd control as well as anti-group firepower, and the ability to synergize Shock onto it for even more AoE goodness is a marked improvement.  More warframes need abilities that help out their other abilities.  Learn from the goodness that is Saryn.

Speed... speed's always going to be controversial.  Lessening the FOV distortion effect is a blessing (I run with FOV effects OFF for this very reason), but I'm worried about the opt-in nature of Volt being tied to a pickup.  Why not have a context prompt of "X: Accept Speed" appear for a second or two while an electrical crackle plays around your character.  If you don't want speed, just don't hit X.  If you do, hit it and zoom, away you go!  Otherwise, speed should not be touched.

I really like the idea of Volt's passive being literally shooting static electricity.  Running around is something Volt always does, and everyone attacks enemies.  This is a good passive, applicable to a wide variety of functions and will constantly see use, even if you don't actively try to use it.  It also helps Volt on Capture missions, since that first shot you get off after chasing down the target will have an extra bit of electrical oomph to it, and so will all the other shots you fire while chasing him down!

*snip*

*snip*

Volt: Physical ground-travel distance between attacks causes bonus Electrical damage on next attack.

Discussed in my opinion of the Volt rework.

As I've said time and again, the issue with Shock is NOT it's NUMBERS, it's with the DAMAGE TYPE BEING SUCK.  Electric damage faces both the entire shield pool and all the armor on the target before it can do whatever's left over (or more likely nothing) to a health pool.  Electric damage is MADE TO FAIL against most enemies in game (EVEN CORPUS ROBOTICS) because there's just so many numbers for it to wade through.

Also (and for the same reason) bonus Electric damage is useless.  It does nothing for Speed, it does nothing for Electric Shield, and it does bloody well all for Tesla/Overload, since there's a percentile health thing supposedly there.  This leaves it as (at best) a Shock buff.  If I wanted a Shock buff, I'd ask for a 50% chance to have foes fall down when shocked.

Also, remember those Grineer Heavies?  The ones with Alloy Armor, that RESISTS electricity?  THAT'S why Shock is useless against them.

Wake mu up when DE gets serious about a Volt Re-rework.  It's gonna need to happen, and the rework isn't even out yet.

[Hochstepanzerjager]

On 5/25/2016 at 6:34 PM, DeMonkey said:

Slightly disappointed. Passives are situational at best, useless at worst and will hardly have an impact on how I play. I actually get some use out of Rhinos passive for instance, bullet jumping into a crowd knowing they'll be CC'd. 

I don't see myself repeatedly jump slamming my melee as Hydroid, he's far too squishy.

I don't see myself getting set on fire as Ember, there's like 4 enemies in the game that have a chance to do it.

Why would I need silenced weapons as Banshee?

How often are other Warframes within 10m of you, in a game where you can travel that distance in under a second?

Sorry guys, I've liked the passives you made so far, but these are mostly meh imo.

1.) Then you don't have the right mods on him.

2.) And it didn't occur they might be planning to add more?

3.) Stealth/Spy frame, and better at it than Loki or Ash are.

4.) Extremely Static Defenses come to mind. The lower part of the Draco map when you defend the coffin on the tram is just the first one I think of and there's many others that fill that criteria of limited space to fight also. ( the coffin on the grineer platform elevator also fits this bill)

 

[Hochstepanzerjager]

7 minutes ago, Melos-mevim said:

cast smite on the drak master their pets will turn on them

 

there enjoy your middle finger and learn how to oberon

or I smartly save my power and cast renewal with a phoenix renewal augment instead to help my squad survive and let my passive take care of the drahks. I think you need to learn to Obie.

[NyxOOX]

32 minutes ago, BloodForTheBloodGods said:

Exactly like that. It could really revitalise how people build and use ember.

Anyways, if you haven't played Borderlands 2, this is what I was referring to.
http://bl2skills.com/psycho.html#00000000000000000000000055555155151

I was trying to condense a whole skill tree into a simple passive for ember (becaue it seemed very similar). Krieg also gets a damage resistance along with other buffs while on fire. As long as you're doing damage and on fire, you were immortal.

So the entire concept is turning Ember into some kind of "fire berserker". I can appreciate your desire to revitalize how Ember works, but this is NOT the way to do it. She's always been more of a "pyromancer" than anything. Really if you want any frame to have a passive where they deal damage to themselves and heal from dealing it to enemies, Valkyr would be infinitely more fitting considering that she actually IS the "berserker frame". Ember has never been a tank in any shape or form, it makes ZERO sense for her passive to rely on her taking damage.

Also since you seem to be fixated on Borderlands, no I never played Hellborn Krieg or Krieg in general, always been a Siren player since OG Borderlands.

[Cornelius.EE]

On 5/25/2016 at 4:53 PM, TheDarkStarChimaera said:

Nyx (disarm enemies from her powers): Can we stop this "Nyx and Loki, who will steal the other's ability in the best way?" thing? I also can't remember the specifics, is it disarm after ability ends? If so, it's fine I guess. But again, this is Nyx, not Loki. 

I completely agree. Keeping with the mind-control/psychic theme, why not instead introduce a passive that has a small chance of staggering enemies who attack Nyx from the front (or within a cone centered on her targeting reticle)? Stagger chance could be calculated per unit time (e.g. 10% chance every second that the enemy has aggro on Nyx and is within the cone) so it doesn't become OP against enemies with high rate of fire. This effect will have to be turned off during Absorb.

To elaborate further: a Nyx focused on Chaos and a Loki focused on Disarm are in many ways similar and are often built similarly. Since Loki got Irradiating Disarm, in essence partially co-opting Nyx's signature ability, he became superior to Nyx in the eyes of many in the community. Being able to re-cast Chaos made Nyx competitive again. Chaos has longer range, costs less energy, and lasts longer than the confusion effect of Irradiating Disarm, but has one fewer effect (no disarm).

Nyx is really good as she is, but if she is to be given further changes, the way to go should NOT be to borrow abilities/effects from Loki, especially when there are ways to improve her usefulness while allowing her abilities to maintain a distinct flavor and function. For instance, why not make Chaos Sphere more useful? Presently, the constantly decreasing effective range make it of limited value except against very fast units (many units approach too slowly to be caught by the ring). Simply spamming Chaos (without the augment) usually works better for locking down an area, especially since using Chaos Sphere forces one to sacrifice a slot and thus decrease range, duration, or efficiency (all of which are detrimental to Chaos Sphere's effectiveness) or survivability (Nyx is already squishy if hit). A possible solution would be to lock the radius of Chaos Sphere to half the radius of Chaos. This would give more reliable control over a smaller area.

I know the issue at hand is not a buff for Nyx (which she probably does not badly need) but rather passives for all warframes. I used the example with Chaos simply to illustrate how a change to her abilities would be better accomplished by adding different or extended functionality rather than by borrowing "trademark" skills from other frames. Disarm on Nyx would simply not be pleasing aesthetically. It would not be particularly useful either. Enemies that have been hit with Mind Control or Chaos are expected to be very thoroughly dead anyway after the abilities expire. It would work nicely with the AOE effect or Absorb, but again: this makes it way to much like Loki's ability.

Giving Nyx a passive stagger would slightly improve her survivability when targeted, which would be a good thing. It would also, in a way, be an extension of the her existing tactic of relying on not being targeted in the first place. There could be other good passives to consider, just not something looted from another frame.

To the developers: I really love the work you're doing and I think many of the other suggested passives are great. I just feel that the one for Nyx (and some other frames, but other people are already speaking up for those) could be much better. It might be a good idea to implement the specific passives that were well received by the community and to hold off in the case of the rest until better ideas are developed. Nyx is already really good and would not suffer from waiting a bit longer to get a passive that suits her better.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Cornelius.EE
Elaborating

[Melos-mevim]

2 minutes ago, Hochstepanzerjager said:

or I smartly save my power and cast renewal with a phoenix renewal augment instead to help my squad survive and let my passive take care of the drahks. I think you need to learn to Obie.

*points at that 23% then how my 2nd most used frame is only at 9%* been using oberon for the majority of my time playing warframe... I think I know how to obe, and his bloody strength is turning enemies on each other along side renewal and status and knockdown immunity from hallowed ground.

 

come back when have played oberon for more than a couple missions and tell me how to oberon

[Hochstepanzerjager]

14 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

Nope - Loki with Hushed Invisibility still has her beat.  He's invisible, totally silent, and can use decoy/switch teleport to bypass laser barrier obstacles at-will.  Sure, Banshee with DE's proposed passive would be a better stealth frame than she was, but there's still nothing that stops her from being spotted if you walk in a door and the enemies are already looking her way and shoot, or if a camera's already pointed at her and alerts the entire room.

Maybe if you're comparing frames under Rank 3, then yeah I could see your point, but once Loki has Invisibility, the spy game is forever clinched in his favor.

Except Loki's invisibility has a time limit. Banshee's passive does not.

 

And I've had his invis end at the absolutely worst times, and without it being recastable until it ends, that's a huge downside.

[Hochstepanzerjager]

4 minutes ago, Melos-mevim said:

*points at that 23% then how my 2nd most used frame is only at 9%* been using oberon for the majority of my time playing warframe... I think I know how to obe, and his bloody strength is turning enemies on each other along side renewal and status and knockdown immunity from hallowed ground.

 

come back when have played oberon for more than a couple missions and tell me how to oberon

Just because you play him 23% of the time, does not necessarily mean you know what you're doing with him when you do play him, and if you're wasting your power on casting smite on Drahks instead of saving it for Renewal and Reckoning, your two most important powers on any mission, I'd argue you don't.

[MihariofMabinogi]

6 minutes ago, Hochstepanzerjager said:

Except Loki's invisibility has a time limit. Banshee's passive does not.

 

And I've had his invis end at the absolutely worst times, and without it being recastable until it ends, that's a huge downside.

Here's the thing, though: Banshee's shiny new passive essentially makes her third skill worthless now since they do nearly the exact same thing. Sure, she has a neat passive, but now she may as well just have three skills.

[Melos-mevim]

Just now, Hochstepanzerjager said:

Just because you play him 23% of the time, does not necessarily mean you know what you're doing with him when you do play him, and if you're wasting your power on casting smite on Drahks instead of saving it for Renewal and Reckoning, your two most important powers on any mission, I'd argue you don't.

smite was just an example reckoning works either way since both smite and reckoning have 100% rad proc, one happens to do a a large group the other allows you to single out a single enemy and turn those around them against them

 

there are moments when a smite is more appropriate than a reckoning

 and renewal is to be used only when needed and if your running good old obe right your going to have energy for that renewal cast when its needed

[Arkvold]

1 minute ago, Hochstepanzerjager said:

Except Loki's invisibility has a time limit. Banshee's passive does not.

 

And I've had his invis end at the absolutely worst times, and without it being recastable until it ends, that's a huge downside.

This is why you watch the timer and take cover somewhere out of sight when it gets down to 2 seconds or so left.  Or you build for efficiency and duration and stealth half the mission in a single cast of invisibility.  It's not hard to stay perpetually invisible.  Further, just because Banshee's passive doesn't end, doesn't mean it does jack squat for her ability to be seen.

You cannot possibly tell me that a frame that is perpetually silent is objectively better as a stealth frame than a frame that can be perpetually silent and invisible whenever necessary.  The only real competition for Loki is Ivara, and that only because Ivara can be invisible (Prowl, Stealth Field Arrow), Silent (uses bows as a primary weapon), and can relocate or sleep enemies at will to remove their ability to notice anyone.  Not to mention being able to build out-of-sight pathways or sanctuaries to take cover in by using the Dashwire arrow.

Stealth in Warframe comes down to "how many senses do enemies have that you can eliminate as a threat, short of killling the guy?"  Loki's answer is "all of them" and that makes him a better Stealth frame than Banshee.

[HeinXeed]

On 26/05/2016 at 0:12 AM, tripletriple said:

Why is everyone pretending the loki passive is good? It's absolute garbage. 

I'm thinking the same; they say loki is overpowered, and i try to understand why. Okay, it's clearly op when you can be invisible and silent (but only with the augment mod) by up to 32 seconds, but stay 1 second visible in open fire and you're dead. By the way, you seem to play with him too, so, when did you used wall cling on him? To be more specific, when wall cling was required or even usefull? People that plays with Loki either use Invisibility or Irradial Disarm (again, only with the mod), switch teleport its cool, but i dont use it often, and decoy may be usefull too, but has the survivability issues. People stated that passives shouldn't be a fifth warframe skill but, why wall cling? I do prefer the fix on the invisibility + melee weapons (its lose the stealth bonus damage on contact, but, when hitting melee often you'll get in contact with the enemy) than to have this wall cling passive.

As i said, i dont know why people says that loki is overpowered, but they're confortable with the Ash's passive, since he's op too, but i thought of a passive that could be usefull, but if it's op or not could be debated: When taking lethal damage Loki becomes briefly invisible (barely 1 to 3 seconds). It may be op, but at least it's not useless.

Edited May 27, 2016 by HeinXeed

[Hochstepanzerjager]

2 minutes ago, MihariofMabinogi said:

Here's the thing, though: Banshee's shiny new passive essentially makes her third skill worthless now since they do nearly the exact same thing. Sure, she has a neat passive, but now she may as well just have three skills.

If you cast it on yourself, yes, but if you cast it on a target, say a spy guardian guarding one of the vaults, the guardian can't hear YOUR movement, something the passive DOESN'T do.