Dev Workshop Part 2: ...& more Warframe Changes.

[GreyEnneract]

2 minutes ago, RazrOutlaw said:

Then they shouldn't rush the balance changes, we aren't in need of this nerfs, right now you can't keep up against the highest level enemies (mainly because there is no cap for THE highest level), so how can you sort out what is strong and what is weak?, I mean, sure Oberon is under performing, but that doesn't mean DE should nerf every frame to Oberon's performance, In every competitive game (that balance is mainly begged for) The player capabilities are balanced against their enemies, so right know we can't balances this game out when scalling is infinite.

DE said themselves that they balance the game around Sorties.

Meaning ~100+ due to sortie restraints as well.

7 minutes ago, osheroth said:

...ok, look. There's currently 3 ways to change things: nerf, buff or rework. Mag and Volt are getting reworked, this means some of their abilites will function in significantly different ways.

yes, there's no mention of a nerf, congrats, you can read; but there isn't a word on Ash's rework in regards to bladestorm either.

You only said "nerf". Blame your own post.

[CadentFever11]

3 hours ago, (XB1)BURRITO DEVIL said:

yes,exalted daggers,this needs to be done

how about going around doing quick finishers like in assassin's creed

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

48 minutes ago, Pyus said:

But will unbreaking gamebreaking warframes put the breaks the momentum of the game or will break the game and make farming more of a pain? 

Depends on the demographics DE is seeking. If it's a WoW player, nothing in this game truly has a barrier, not even the farming (even that's handed to players). It's TOO simplistic and boring in that regard. If they're seeking CoD players, it maybe too hard. -_-

[osheroth]

3 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

You only said "nerf". Blame your own post.

Guess the word "rework" on that specific post flew right past you. Oh well.

[jinxeverything]

Here are some of my ideas 

Yes some people may not like and that's fine but remember, let DE decide!

[TheTundraTerror]

1 minute ago, osheroth said:

Guess the word "rework" on that specific post flew right past you. Oh well.

Splitting hairs.

[(PSN)adam4213]

R.I.P Mirage. Your blind is now worse than Excalibur's. 

I wouldn't be too upset with all of this if everything was balanced to compensate for these nerfs. Once again we're getting nerfed while the enemies remain completely OP with cheap abilities and broken armor scaling. Yet again DE prove they have no idea how to balance this game. It's just a constant power struggle back and forth. A new frame comes out with an OP power. The next update DE introduce more OP enemies and the cycle continues. The reason all these problem exist is because the core of the game is broken. Maybe I'm just being pessimistic here but I can't see Warframe surviving much longer like this. It's just like building a house on some unstable land. DE keep piling on more and more things while the core of the game or in this case the foundation remains unstable and broken. Eventually, it's going to collapse on itself.  

Edited May 27, 2016 by (PS4)adam4213

[TheTundraTerror]

I can say with confidence that Rhino, with his 62m max range Stomp is just going to be the new Mirage Prism. The only reason Prism was used was because it was cheap to spam.

[Niceberg]

2 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Depends on the demographics DE is seeking. If it's a WoW player, nothing in this game truly has a barrier, not even the farming (even that's handed to players). It's TOO simplistic and boring in that regard. If they're seeking CoD players, it maybe too hard. -_-

Farming is the core of this game. We farm for weapon blueprints, we farm for the resources to make this weapons. Some of these resources, like Tellurium, have abysmal drop chances that force you to play a specific frame just to get them. 

We even have to farm for the possiblity of getting more characters. 

Now with Rathuum, we have to farm points to get the chance to farm a boss to get the chance of a part of a new character.

This is a farming simulator.

[--Q--uaint]

2 hours ago, Fifield said:

Also, can’t Limbo just Banish everyone on a pad?

You can’t actually hold down a pad while Banished.

 

The Mirage change is palatable; I just hope for other changes to make the situations where you need CC that ridiculous not happen.

Valkyr should only take damage over time rather than being fully invincible while in Hysteria as detailed in the OP of https://forums.warframe.com/topic/198866-retune-all-the-frames-514-the-mystic-the-willful/

Exalted Blade’s waves shouldn’t be nerfed, just made less spammable (limit them to certain combo-strikes, or only fling them while channeling?). In exchange for this nerf, EB should get the use of all melee mods back, from Blood Rush to Covert Lethality to Justice Blades. (and even Whirlwind and such for the waves!)

I think this is probably the best solution for Blessing: (Numbers are what I think is balanced, but things can certainly be adjusted.)

Spoiler

Blessing: As now, instant 80% heal of HP and shields, scaling with Power Strength. All (actual, not potential) healed HP and shields is put in a “buffer” for Trinity, and is displayed for her in much the same way as Mend or Maim’s accumulation is. Not only does the amount Trinity can heal based on power strength, but the buffer is also multiplied by power strength.
Blessing provides a Quick Thinking-style effect for the whole squad based on the buffer it builds, starting at 5 HP so it takes over before normal QT does.
This effect does not create the standard QT stagger under any circumstances.
This effect drains only from Blessing’s “buffer,” with each point equaling 1.0/1.1/1.2/1.3 health. (scales with Power Strength)
Synergy with Well of Life: all healing done by Well of Life during Blessing is added to the QT buffer. Well of Life is no longer capped per-player also does its healing in a 5/10/15/20 meter radius rather than only healing the damage-dealer.

Sources: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/198866-retune-all-the-frames-514-the-mystic-the-willful/?do=findComment&comment=7169889 https://forums.warframe.com/topic/198866-retune-all-the-frames-514-the-mystic-the-willful/?do=findComment&comment=7172060

Bladestorm really just needs to be made interactive and useful. The godmoding will be skillbased, at that point… which is the point! An idea I had:

Spoiler

A thought for Ash’s Bladestorm:
Ash marks an area in much the same way as he does now, but not requiring an initial target. If an initial target is marked, Ash bladestorms it himself once before returning to his initial position. The base duration of the marked radius is 7/8/9/10 seconds.
1/2/3/4 shadow clones are spawned, not scaling with power strength. These clones use Bladestorm’s current attacks on anything in the marked radius, and otherwise idle somewhere in the radius doing the Eclipse Narta. If an idling clone receives damage, it immediately attacks the source regardless of range.
Ash is free to do whatever he wants during the duration, and may do Bladestorm strikes of his own for no energy cost by hitting 4 at an enemy.

Original post: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/198866-retune-all-the-frames-514-the-mystic-the-willful/?do=findComment&comment=7093916

 

Edited May 27, 2016 by ChronoEclipse

[RazrOutlaw]

• 10 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

  All anyone wants is 20mins max. All the time I played 1000+ hrs, only one Void run to 60mins, and even that was a T2D. -_-

  2200 Hours in, never done 1 single void mission just for the first C (20mins, 20waves,etc) rotation unless there was a new access and we've got the drop (which is understandable since everyone would kill eachother if we didn't leave with the new loot), so please, speak for yourself, lots of players like to surpass their limits and see how much time/waves they can reach, that's why most of the players min-max and forma stuff over and over, T4 survival 20 mins isn't what this game should be balanced on.

[-CM-Hekovashi]

As being said already countless times-you should FIX ENEMY SCALING FIRST and only THEN nerf our tool that we HAD to use to deal with them.

Once we stop being randomly oneshoted and when enemy stop being a invincible armored bulletsponges with bazzilions of hp then we stop using cheeze tactics (or at least do it less).

But in this current stage you just remove\nerf our tools to deal with broken enemies, while keep broken enemies completely untouched, thats kinds...not so smart.

[Ketec]

Good bye to Valkyrie it seems, another frame i will not be using anymore. Increasing energy cost + loss of invulnerability on top of all energy drains affecting duration based abilities plus taking damage when it ends and enemies within 20m is insane (cancelled by large number of energy drain eximus, infested, nullifiers etc). She is now worthless for any endless/large enemy number missions.

Prism was never any good as a damage ability - tiny boost changes nothing. It's costly to mod it for proper area damage (you need efficiency, duration, range, power - all 4).

Excalibur nerf without boosts on other abilities is uncalled for. It overshadows other abilities simply because they pretty much suck.

ALL i get from this thread is not balance - but plain nerfs to make game more grindy and time consuming - likely to enforce more cash shop use.

[Fifield]

23 minutes ago, TheRandomHunter said:

You're wrong. Painfully wrong. How is enemy scaling not a problem? You say EHP, yeah, sure, that's a problem fixed by stacking CP auras or corrosive procs. What about scaling enemy damage? There is one gun that can literally shoot around corners, and it's not that great (hilariously, because of enemy scaling), the rest are weapons with splash damage.

There's something called a Tonkor. You might have heard of it. Penta too.
And splash damage works.

24 minutes ago, TheRandomHunter said:

Free revives only count if you have a teammate in range, that won't die trying to revive you.

Which is about 90% of the time unless you're going solo.  I'm amazed how PUGS will frequently bullet jump back across 5+ rooms to revive me.

25 minutes ago, TheRandomHunter said:

Auto-revives now have an affinity penalty attached

Disaster!

25 minutes ago, TheRandomHunter said:

At a certain point, enemies will one shot you. If your argument is "Oh, then you should evac", that's a bad argument. You can get one-shotted, or close to it, in Sorties easily, can you just evacuate those?

Highlighted where you defeated your own argument. Sure, if you take a paper frame with no invisibility and no Blessing Trinity you might get one-shotted late in Excavations. Maybe don't do that?

You might also notice that most frames have the ability to limit enemies from fighting back?

27 minutes ago, TheRandomHunter said:

I'm not going to even get into how you're actually wrong about enemy EHP, and how it makes 90% of the weapons in the game worthless regardless of whether they have armor or not.

Oh do go into it. *grabs popcorn*

It's more like 80% of the weapons in the game are worthless and that's nothing to do with enemy scaling.

[ElGuirrix]

So, basically on Mirage we lost trespassing walls, which makes sense for a blind, yet makes it be worth less than Radial Blind. That isn't a good idea.

Excalibur during EB just lost a reliable use of spin attack. I don't care about the blind. Spin attacks are a useful part of a combo with huge damage potential, now we're forced to spend extra energy for a core move and a blind that, if remains as weak as it is, will be worth nothing. If you impose 50% energy cost on it, give me a 50% effective Radial Blind. Not something less than 25% of it.

Valkyr, what to say, this wasn't a good way to go. Now you won't effectively be killing high level enemies in endless missions because you won't survive them face to face, and what's worse, running out of hysteria in an endless mission is now instant death if you take the damage, because enemies will be everywhere, and hiding won't be easy.

DE, you had a right idea on changing too OP skills, but this just limited those skills overall potential.

[Homer87]

2 hours ago, JPSimms said:

Sure I can do that.

Passives: These are so bad that I'm honestly baffled. Why would Banshee get silencers on all weapons when she has an ability to deafen enemies? What part of Loki's kit synergies with wall cling? And I'm having a hard time deciding which passive is more useless: Oberon's or Mag's. I know that they don't and shouldn't be gamechangers but they should at least be... good.

Mirage (Prism): Prism is an amazing ability with almost unprecedented CC. The only problem is that this change wouldn't just diminish it's utility, it could outright ruin it. I already notice that with Radial Blind that it won't hit some enemies right in front of me. Imagining having a radial blind that has a 4x cast time with similar results on a frame with a fraction of the armor is an accident waiting to happen.

Valkyr (Hysteria): I'm going to say it, energy drain sucks. It over-complicates builds and removes any team synergy when it comes to energy restore and increases dependence on RNG drop orbs for sustained use. Making energy drain worse just means that I'll have to wait for my energy to run out, pop an energy restore, wait X seconds, and cast it again. It's just unnecessary tedium. The other change is also so overly convoluted even in the explanation and it just sounds like something someone shouted out in a meeting to wake everyone up.

Excal (EB): This is just a case of "we made something really good and regret it." This nerf is a bandaid on a year old necrotic gangrenous wound. If Excal was really this "problematic" they should have done something on day 2. Excal really is the most reliable source of focus and they know it. Instead of making it easier for other frames to get focus or tweak the system to allow support frames to gain focus they just take the best and break his kneecaps.

I honestly can't give any alternatives other than "Don't do any of the thing you just listed."

+1. Especially the EB part sums up my arguments not just on that, but on a lot of things with this game when talking about balance.

Also, while we are talking about balance, any word on enemy scaling, so that cheese tactics aren't needed? This is why I hardly ever do sorties. It's not fun to get one shot by a standard mob, let alone a heavy version of it. While I can take the occasional nerf, this just mitigates the ability to not get killed on high levels, let alone team synergy.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

Just now, RazrOutlaw said:

• 2200 Hours in, never done 1 single void mission just for the first C (20mins, 20waves,etc) rotation unless there was a new access and we've got the drop (which is understandable since everyone would kill eachother if we didn't leave with the new loot), so please, speak for yourself, lots of players like to surpass their limits and see how much time/waves they can reach, that's why most of the players min-max and forma stuff over and over, T4 survival 20 mins isn't what this game should be balanced on.

Well, you're not on Recruiting unless calling for min-max MR 15+ groups, huh?

Yeah, speak for yourself!

^-^

[WyckXaos]

Add a "Kamehameha" animated letters appearing in the air when Mirage casts her Prism. It's a long cast anyway :)

Edited May 27, 2016 by WyckXaos

[DuskLegendary]

3 minutes ago, Ketec said:

Good bye to Valkyrie it seems, another frame i will not be using anymore. Increasing energy cost + loss of invulnerability on top of all energy drains affecting duration based abilities plus taking damage when it ends and enemies within 20m is insane (cancelled by large number of energy drain eximus, infested, nullifiers etc). She is now worthless for any endless/large enemy number missions.

Prism was never any good as a damage ability - tiny boost changes nothing. It's costly to mod it for proper area damage (you need efficiency, duration, range, power - all 4).

Excalibur nerf without boosts on other abilities is uncalled for. It overshadows other abilities simply because they pretty much suck.

ALL i get from this thread is not balance - but plain nerfs to make game more grindy and time consuming - likely to enforce more cash shop use.

Look, I don't want to be negative, but this is exactly how I feel as well. I'm not really all that pleased with the (possibly?) upcoming changes at all. I'm one of those players who enjoy doing 1-1 and a half hour endurance runs or 40 waves into T4 Defenses and the like, just to see how far I can push my loadouts. To me, this is extremely bad news. 

I'm also a daily raider, so some of these changes may not impact a lot of people, but for people who do raids, considering a Prism and Blessing nerf will all but ruin them by making them either extremely difficult or near impossible.

[RazrOutlaw]

Just now, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Well, you're not on Recruiting unless calling for min-max MR 15+ groups, huh?

Yeah, speak for yourself!

^-^

Again, SPEAK FOR YOURSELF, I never asked for mastery rank in my life while recruiting, not even for raids, It's the most worthless thing to do, neither for min-maxers, however what I do ask when I'm on recruiting is people who can play (And by play I mean stay in the mission for the duration of it, not perform over the expectations) the amount of time I expect the mission to be going.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

9 minutes ago, TheKittenEater said:

Farming is the core of this game. We farm for weapon blueprints, we farm for the resources to make this weapons. Some of these resources, like Tellurium, have abysmal drop chances that force you to play a specific frame just to get them. 

We even have to farm for the possiblity of getting more characters. 

Now with Rathuum, we have to farm points to get the chance to farm a boss to get the chance of a part of a new character.

This is a farming simulator.

Not even close.

I played a MMO, and the farming is so bad, the DEVS put in a bot program for farming ... I kid you not! Complete with when to use health pots; conditionals on what loot to pick up; and for how long ... as people AFK farmed for 24hrs STRAIGHT there.

Asian grinders are the epitome of THE GRIND. This game is nothing like a "farming simulator" AT ALL (EvE is an example of it in -0.2 space when fleets do farming, though).

[ADRENALYN451]

I am going to speak about Blessing, for I love to play Trinity and have been doing it for a long time. With a good balanced build, she is my favourite frame to play.

The ability Does Not need to be changed, it's already fun to try and catch people from dying by having Multitasking abilities and being able to keep glancing at the team member's Hp bars in the top right. Sure it takes hard practise and a lot of commitment, but i think that is what makes trinity one of the hardest/most fun and rewarding Warframe.

I think the real Issue that needs to be adjusted about Blessing is Players who fix builds with their weapons that allows them to damage themselves to nearly 2hp and then fallow it up with a bless, for 99% damage reduction to the entire squad. In my eyes, That is the situation that needs to be resolved, for it really feels like an unnatural use of an ability. Allowing one player to consistently give God-Mode (through masochism) to everyone else in the squad with no real effort, basically removes all potential challenges and thrill from any mission the players are abided to and that generally makes games boring and lacking challenge.

Don't change a good ability, prevent the abuse!

- A true Trin-lover, ADRENALYN451

Edited May 27, 2016 by ADRENALYN451
unfinished sentence

[Niceberg]

2 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Not even close.

I played a MMO, and the farming is so bad, the DEVS put in a bot program for farming ... I kid you not! Complete with when to use health pots; conditionals on what loot to pick up; and for how long ... as people AFK farmed for 24hrs STRAIGHT there.

Asian grinders are the epitome of THE GRIND. This game is nothing like a "farming simulator" AT ALL (EvE is an example of it in -0.2 space when fleets do farming, though).

Oh, dont worry. I grew up on Runescape and Maplestory. I still play Archeage sometimes. 

I know what heavy grinding is; and this is really, really close.

Actually, we do have drones that farm for us here, too. 

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

7 minutes ago, RazrOutlaw said:

Again, SPEAK FOR YOURSELF, I never asked for mastery rank in my life while recruiting, not even for raids, It's the most worthless thing to do, neither for min-maxers, however what I do ask when I'm on recruiting is people who can play (And by play I mean stay in the mission for the duration of it, not perform over the expectations) the amount of time I expect the mission to be going.

Sure........ especially claiming every player min-maxes (wow, then every run will be so picture perfect in every game!!!).

Are you the same guy claiming he never heard of a character called a "toon" before, too???

[Revox79]

great......
again more nerf the good stuff, how about rather than nerfing thing we love you rework thing we dont like, like perhaps terrible enemy scaling? or just rework less effective frames to actually work?
you shoul not have to nerf te players, you should make the enemys do their job better and more fairly(ESPECIALLY in a PvE game)

the  only positve out of this new players can feel better now that they won't be outpreformed by the frames that worked. it's something, right?