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Dev Workshop Part 2: ...& more Warframe Changes.


[DE]Rebecca
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2 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Sure........ especially claiming every player min-maxes (wow, then every run will be so picture perfect in every game!!!).

Are you the same guy claiming he never heard of a character called a "toon" before, too???

He never claimed that all of the players min-maxed. Most of them do. Which is true, to some extent.

You even quoted, bolded and highlighted that part of his post yourself.

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7 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Also under review:

Trinity's Blessing & Ash's Bladestorm are both under review as well. If we determine a course of action for either of these powers, we will let you know here. Feel free to link us threads on either of these with your thoughts!

5 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Blessing is a tricky one; everyone agrees that it's cheesy and overpowered (even if its model is the epitome of reactionary healing, but it's just too easy to give the entire party consistent godmode with an Ogris and Quick Thinking). Trinity's entire healing model needs to be examined; presently, Blessing's ability to instantly full-heal targets (including shields) with an unlimited range completely negates the entire purpose of Well of Life (beyond a single-target CC that doesn't work on any priority targets that are worthwhile to CC individually). I suppose you could theoretically have it deal its healing over time so Well of Life will be a better burst heal... but that steps on Renewal's toes (unless you give Renewal a new effect too, which it could use...). Blessing and WoL both need a rework in parallel, so they don't overlap.

Some thoughts on this now:

  • Blessing no longer provides instant healing. Instead, all allies affected by the mitigation buff receive healing-over-time affected by Power Strength while the mitigation remains, and have a bonus to bleedout time (even if the target was bleeding out when the effect was cast). Mitigation diminishes over time, a la Metamorphosis. If allies are bleeding out when Blessing is cast, the diminishing mitigation is guaranteed to begin at 100%. Unlimited radius and instant transmission retained.
  • Well of Life no longer increases the maximum health of the affected target, but now causes massive radial bursts of healing each time the selected target is struck. Overhealing from this effect can grant Overshields.
  • Renewal no longer fires projectiles, increases bleedout or has an infinite distance; instead, Oberon periodically releases healing pulses over a distance affected by Power Range while toggled active. Allies within range also gain a flat amount of bonus armor from a percentage of Oberon's own, and are purged of all status effects. No longer has a maximum Duration, or ceases to affect players at maximum health; it remains active while you spend energy on it. 
  • Hallowed Ground replaced with an armor buff and taunt for Oberon.

With Trinity's new passive, it actually makes more sense for her to have the bleedout buff than it does for Oberon, and fits perfectly into her reactive healing model. Instead, focus should be put on Oberon as a proactive defender.
"But you just gave Trinity Renewal!" Well, close, but consider this: Renewal's main failings at present are that A) it has travel time; B) the inverse Duration scaling of the heal puts it in conflict with the standard scaling of the bleedout buff; and C) its effects end when the target reaches full health. These are all things that Blessing attacks with its instant transmission at unlimited range, and by attaching the buffs to its continued mitigation while active.
Further, by making Oberon's Renewal limited by Range rather than travel time, you can make Trinity's main niche over Oberon and Equinox that Blessing has unlimited Range, while allowing them to instead be put on an even playing field in terms of real healing dealt.

Additionally, turning Blessing into a heal-over-time effect removes the overlaps with Well of Life - Blessing remains reactionary (primarily between the mitigation and bleedout buffs) and can be used to save targets that move far away, and WoL becomes a burst-healing mechanic for closer targets, a proactive barrier you can generate before encounters or an "I'll just top you off" effect you can cast frequently and cheaply. The mitigation and burst-healing of Blessing are diminished to prevent suicide builds from making Blessing unfair, while still keeping her niche as the party support alive. Meanwhile, the greatest effect of the mitigation buff lasts just long enough to revive people if the situation arises.

For more on that Oberon stuff (and further discussion on this model), my megathread.

Edited by Archwizard
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Just now, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Sure........ especially claiming every player min-maxes (wow, then every run will be so picture perfect in every game!!!).

Are you the same guy claiming he never heard of a character called a "toon" before, too???

For the third time, you're putting words in my mouth, I said most, not all, and this is based 100% from my expirience with the game, so I'm not saying it's a fact at any point.

And to be honest, no, I've never had a bad run, never ever, must be that I'm just a lucky guy it seems. Also haven't heard any character been called a toon before, so you maybe right about that (have never claimed I did until now though, so you've got the wrong guy).

Besides all this, point still remains the same, this game should not be balanced around easy content like 20mins into a T4 survival.

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2 minutes ago, TheKittenEater said:

He never claimed that all of the players min-maxed. Most of them do. Which is true, to some extent.

You even quoted, bolded and highlighted that part of his post yourself.

Thank you for pointing it out, because I felt like I didn't.

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2 hours ago, theclinton said:

Posting memes/videos with no explanation is not constructive either!

Since I can't contact you via PM, I'm posting this here.

So I heard you are Valkyr Enthusiast. So am I. I really enjoy playing Valkyr because of her berserker playstyle and also find her Hysteria movements very gracefull.

I personally see upcoming changes as a narrow-minded nerf, which is poorly designed. What do you think about making Hysteria real berserker ability, with a spiral death dance mechanics, instead of boring "i drain energy" mechanic?

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3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Trinity's Blessing & Ash's Bladestorm are both under review as well. If we determine a course of action for either of these powers, we will let you know here. Feel free to link us threads on either of these with your thoughts!

Hello everyone , I´m worried about Trinity's blessing changes, in my opinion the ability is not broken, The real problem with this ability is the way you get 99% blessing, so the only effective way to get 99% is to trigger it with a self damage  weapon. So a friend suggested me that why not as a healer she can´t deal damage to herself. This idea is brilliant because if u want to actually play without using a self damage weapon it requires practice and its challenging, in a high level situation you have to pay attention to your allies health and be fast enough to recover their health back instantly , I have seen a lot of posts suggesting that her 4 should travel like a wave I disagree with this because the damage is so intense in high level content that you  won´t be able to keep with it up, blessing won´tbe useful for squishy frames . Well that´s my opinion hope DE take it into account. I don´t  want her  4 to be nerfed. The self damage is the problem not the ability itself.

Sorry about my english I´m not a native english speaker.

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12 minutes ago, TheKittenEater said:

He never claimed that all of the players min-maxed.

"Many min-max" might as well be every and all, as if there were "many" the groups wouldn't be AFK central for the Void, and doing 2% damage on a damage frame in missions. ^-^

I seen every group imaginable. Troll groups; asshats; really nice groups that were fun ... but they weren't "min-max". Last Void group I was in they stopped to trade at Maroo, as they didn't even have the mods............................ MR 18, and didn't have the mods yet....................................

Edited by Kevyne_Kicklighter
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As for Blade Storm, I would rather it just leave the camera in the casting spot and send out several phantoms to hack enemies to death. The cutscene aspect of it can be rather disorienting.

Edited by Horonelius
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4 hours ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

So basically blind mirage is dead then, okay I can accept that. I usually use Synoid Mirage anyway and just have fun nuking things anyway so it wont hurt me. That said I think I'll have to delete my Valk and Excal loadouts now because they will be less fun. I'm surely not alone on this but hopefully all the upcoming changes don't take away all the fun of the game. Regardless it's your game but don't take away every thing people love like Slowva and our lord and savior Inaros please, they are fine as is. Also what about enemy scaling?

Oh calm down, the changes aren't /that/ bad. The only thing I have to disagree with is the energy usage on the mini Radial Blind on Excal's EB. I use Excal and Valkyr the most out of a lot of my frames and- well. Spin-melee is reflex at this point.

 

As for Mirage, no, her blind hasn't been destroyed it's just been given line of sight. Here's a thought, think about where the enemies are facing before just casting off Prism into the abyss, and maybe then it could still be as effective as it was before? Eh? I like this idea. Now relax yourself. It's not the end of the world.

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16 minutes ago, Adlerkrieger said:

Hello everyone , I´m worried about Trinity's blessing changes, in my opinion the ability is not broken, The real problem with this ability is the way you get 99% blessing, so the only effective way to get 99% is to trigger it with a self damage  weapon. So a friend suggested me that why not as a healer she can´t deal damage to herself. This idea is brilliant because if u want to actually play without using a self damage weapon it requires practice and its challenging, in a high level situation you have to pay attention to your allies health and be fast enough to recover their health back instantly , I have seen a lot of posts suggesting that her 4 should travel like a wave I disagree with this because the damage is so intense in high level content that you  won´t be able to keep with it up, blessing won´tbe useful for squishy frames . Well that´s my opinion hope DE take it into account. I don´t  want her  4 to be nerfed. The self damage is the problem not the ability itself.

Sorry about my english I´m not a native english speaker.

You know how Inaros' 4th ability takes from his health pool the longer you charge the ability?

 

That's a thing. Make of that as you will.

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9 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

"Many min-max" might as well be every and all, as if there were "many" the groups wouldn't be AFK central for the Void, and doing 2% damage on a damage frame in missions. ^-^

I seen every group imaginable. Troll groups; asshats; really nice groups that were fun ... but they weren't "min-max". Last Void group I was in they stopped to trade at Maroo, as they didn't even have the mods............................ MR 18, and didn't have the mods yet....................................

There's a reason we have in the English dictionary many and all at the same time, they are not synonyms, if you wan't to consider them that, it's up to you I guess.

What do you mean by afk central for void? everyone playing Void? because that has nothing to do with min-maxing, has to do with the reward system, currently playing void is much more appealling in terms of rewards than almost any missions except maybe for sorties and raids.

I really doubt there where core modes, MR18 and not having what mods? bloodrush?, maybe. Intensify, Flow etc? only if they sold them for plat, if neither of those where the case then you just got paired with a Dracolifer.

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5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Prism: Prism’s Blind effect is now affected by the enemy's Line-of-Sight (LoS) to the Prism. Prism’s damage has been buffed slightly to compensate for this change. We found that Prism was able to lock down maps with little recourse, and we feel that these changes will make it a more targeted ability while also increasing its tactical usage.

CALLED IT!

Let's see you crutchers do some T4I or Law of Retribution NOW!

On a more serious note, Bladestorm is the only good part of Ash's kit.  It's the heart and soul of the frame itself.  It cannot be nerfed, significantly changed, or removed without ruining Ash for people who really enjoy Bladestorm's style and power.  If you are dead-set on killing Ash like this, at least remove the range limit on Smoke Shadow.

Blessing is currently fine (except for self-damage, but that should just be entirely removed already).  Trinity needs some QoL buffs, not nerfs to her signature ability.  What she needs looked at is EV and cast animations.  EV is broken, but it's really the only workaround for a completely borked energy system.  Most of Trin's kit is also stuck in closed beta, forcing you to not only land, but be stationary for a long cast animation.

While Exalted Blade did need to be toned down, making the mini-blind take energy is dumb.  It's nowhere near as useful as a Radial Blind, and it's often just a side effect of people wanting to do a slide attack.  Remove it if you have to, but the energy cost is not a good addition.

 

Edited by Telogor
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2 minutes ago, Tendou_Souji said:

All this salt...am i the only person perfectly okay with all this?

Nope.

While I agree with some people in this thread that enemy scaling is also a huge problem, these buffs and nerfs are not making the overall problem worse.

People just want to whine. Especially the people complaining about the Prism change. Not only does it make sense for a blind to be line of sight, but all other blinds in the game are line of sight as well. They should have known this was coming.

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So these nerfs were to be expected but it's all nice and good these changes to their powers but what about enemy scaling so we are not killed in 1 shot when we go past a certain level? Can DE implement a system similar to other games where enemy scales based off spawns and AI rather than mindless dumb zombies with insane output?  For me the game only gets exciting when there is a considerable increase in spawns and not me having to find an enemy when a group is split up in a survival.  Maybe DE should just cap the enemies at 1 level only and then after that just end the mission as all I see is balancing around a certain enemy cap and thats it. It does not fix the bullet sponges or the insane damage they do as that is what I consider OP. In this situation you either have to use covert leathality on a particular frame or we are forced to use a banshee always for damage output against them and she is about as tanky as a wet tissue. 

I can see why these were the most popular frames to use in the game especially for raid set ups but a few frames needed some serious rework like hydroid who is frankly a joke. Enemies just walk in between his tenticles like nothing is there or they up against walls that do nothing but swing around for show?  

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3 hours ago, Viedra_Lavinova said:
  1. Suggestion for Hysteria: Health drains over time, energy increases the longer she goes without healing with life-steal.(Healing/ Life-strike reduces energy drain) Encourages the player to only use hysteria only when needed. Dynamically rewards and adjusts time in hysteria. Immune to healing abilities while in Hysteria. (Blessing, Renewal, Scarab Swarm.)
  2. Suggestion for Blessing: Make blessing radiate outward in a wave fashion similar to Molecular Prime/ Polarize. (Maybe Strength determines how fast it travels inversely?) No longer a map wide ability. Something needs to be done about 99% damage reduction though.

Super happy about these nerfs tbh, much needed.

I've been bandying about (at least in my head, not sure it actually got posted to the forums) the idea of switching Hysteria's sustained cost over to health instead.  Short bursts of Hysteria to heal teammates still works (though you probably want to then go hit some enemies before deactivating it), and long runs of Hysteria while clawing everything works, but simply running around levels being immortal runs serious risks of popping out at 2 health at an inconvenient moment.

 

Blessing, I think the big thing that's needed is to either reduce or remove the damage reduction scaling with health lost.  While removing self-damage would help, with Quick Thinking, it's generally going to be only slightly less reliable to find an enemy (or group of enemies) that will do enough damage to get her health gone quickly enough, without also removing all of her energy (and anything less than all energy - and maybe even then - is just going to get restored via EV).

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1 minute ago, GreyEnneract said:

Nope.

While I agree with some people in this thread that enemy scaling is also a huge problem, these buffs and nerfs are not making the overall problem worse.

People just want to whine. Especially the people complaining about the Prism change. Not only does it make sense for a blind to be line of sight, but all other blinds in the game are line of sight as well. They should have known this was coming.

You know what the funny part is? Typically if an enemy knows where you are, it performs this special action called "looking in your direction," a strategic advantage for the Prism caster that will still effectively hit a good 80% around of the enemies in your area if used correctly. In my opinion, I think this "nerf" is only just a good way of getting you to actually pay attention and think about when and where to cast than just cheesing a whole map.

 

Also, damage boost is a plus!

 

The only thing I disagree with is the Excalibur energy cost on the mini blind for EB... I main Valkyr and Excal usually, so the melee comes natural... Meaning that the spin-melee is a bit reflex now...

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5 minutes ago, Telogor said:

CALLED IT!

Let's see you crutchers do some T4I or Law of Retribution NOW!

That would be Ivara for T4 Int. She can even cause enemies to perma glitch capture points so the enemy can no longer capture anything and all the tenno have to do is find a nice perch or hide out until the end of round where it's either covert lethality or noise arrow to get everyone to crowd around in front of the doom lasers. 

-Time for group hug! Everyone gather around.  Aaannnddd ZAAAP-

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Not much to complain about the changes, all seem pretty reasonable.

However, it does make sorties just that much more frustrating and not worthwhile to do. As some have mentioned perhaps enemy scaling should also be looked at when we are "balancing", its not always just the weapons and the frames.

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29 minutes ago, Adlerkrieger said:

Hello everyone , I´m worried about Trinity's blessing changes, in my opinion the ability is not broken, The real problem with this ability is the way you get 99% blessing, so the only effective way to get 99% is to trigger it with a self damage  weapon

12 minutes ago, Telogor said:

Blessing is currently fine.  Trinity needs some QoL buffs, not nerfs to her signature ability.  What she needs looked at is EV and cast animations.  EV is broken, but it's really the only workaround for a completely borked energy system.  Most of Trin's kit is also stuck in closed beta, forcing you to not only land, but be stationary for a long cast animation.

How do you people say "Blessing can give her allies 99% mitigation" (regardless of circumstances), and still say it's fine with a straight face?

Oh right, because you want to have your cake and eat it too. Sorry kiddos, but it's overpowered.

No, it doesn't require self-damage, just Quick Thinking. Yes, it does need nerfs, because her "signature ability" makes all other healing abilities worthless since they can't match up. She has another healing effect within her own kit, but do you ever use Well of Life? No, because she has an effect that instantly heals your whole team wherever they are, and gives you mitigation to boot. It needs to not be the perfect specimen of unlimited immortality, just so everything else has a chance; you can't exactly bump anything up to its level because it's level is on-demand godmode.
You can bump everything else up, sure, but you gotta bump it down too.

7 minutes ago, DemonUnicornLV said:

Again nerfing things in a game where oponent is AI. Back to regular scheduled programming-OW

Just because the AI needs nerfing doesn't excuse players from getting nerfed. Sure, the order of operations may need to be looked at (I'm sure you'd prefer enemy nerfs before player nerfs), but a lot of these very nerfs were going to happen sooner or later. In the long run, it doesn't matter which happens first as long as both happen. We just don't know when enemy scaling changes are coming.

Edited by Archwizard
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2 minutes ago, Telogor said:

CALLED IT!

Let's see you crutchers do some T4I or Law of Retribution NOW!

On a more serious note, Bladestorm is the only good part of Ash's kit.  It's the heart and soul of the frame itself.  It cannot be nerfed, significantly changed, or removed without ruining Ash for people who really enjoy Bladestorm's style and power.  If you are dead-set on killing Ash like this, at least remove the range limit on Smoke Shadow.

Blessing is currently fine.  Trinity needs some QoL buffs, not nerfs to her signature ability.  What she needs looked at is EV and cast animations.  EV is broken, but it's really the only workaround for a completely borked energy system.  Most of Trin's kit is also stuck in closed beta, forcing you to not only land, but be stationary for a long cast animation.

So. Turning Prism, the only truly viable ability Mirage has, into a worse Radial Blind is perfectly fine. Mainly because you are salty about people running Raids "better" than you.

But the moment someone tries to touch your Ash's 4-to-win ability, it becomes something that cannot possible be even changed withour completely ruining the frame.

Bet you dont like Trin's nerf because shes the one that gives you the energy for that 24/7 bladestorm spam, huh?

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Quote

Just because the AI needs nerfing doesn't excuse players from getting nerfed. Sure, the order of operations may need to be looked at (I'm sure you'd prefer enemy nerfs before player nerfs), but a lot of these very nerfs were going to happen sooner or later. In the long run, it doesn't matter which happens first as long as both happen. We just don't know when enemy scaling changes are coming.

In grand sceme of thing i have no problem them nerfing players a bit but there needs to be a little bit of prioritizing beffore doing so-Enemy Scale fix (nerf)> Player fix (nerf). You can nerf players in the ground and that will not fix the bigger problem here.

 

Edited by DemonUnicornLV
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1 minute ago, WingedCrusade said:

You know what the funny part is? Typically if an enemy knows where you are, it performs this special action called "looking in your direction," a strategic advantage for the Prism caster that will still effectively hit a good 80% around of the enemies in your area if used correctly. In my opinion, I think this "nerf" is only just a good way of getting you to actually pay attention and think about when and where to cast than just cheesing a whole map.

 

Also, damage boost is a plus!

 

The only thing I disagree with is the Excalibur energy cost on the mini blind for EB... I main Valkyr and Excal usually, so the melee comes natural... Meaning that the spin-melee is a bit reflex now...

Yeah doesn't make sense for there to be an energy cost on a non-ability. That's the only thing I disagree with DE on as well.

I still think that EV should also be looked at though. That ability alone allows things like huge aura range energy leech eximus run around, and nightmare LoR is completely balanced around it. With Trinity offering everything so powerfully it means that no future support frame can be relevant.

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4 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

How do you people say "Blessing can give her allies 99% mitigation" (regardless of circumstances), and still say it's fine with a straight face?

Oh right, because you want to have your cake and eat it too. Sorry kiddos, but it's overpowered.

No, it doesn't require self-damage, just Quick Thinking. Yes, it does need nerfs, because her "signature ability" makes all other healing abilities worthless since they can't match up. She has another healing effect within her own kit, but do you ever use Well of Life? No, because she has an effect that instantly heals your whole team wherever they are, and gives you mitigation to boot.

Just because the AI needs nerfing doesn't excuse players from getting nerfed. Sure, the order of operations may need to be looked at (I'm sure you'd prefer enemy nerfs before player nerfs), but a lot of these very nerfs were going to happen sooner or later. In the long run, it doesn't matter which happens first as long as both happen. We just don't know when enemy scaling changes are coming.

Uhm. Trinity's actual kit is really a bit of a joke. Well of Life is useless, and still, that 99% damage mitigation? You said it yourself, you /actually have to take life threatening damage to get it./ Trinity gets constant nerfs to the ground that make her near useless often until DE picks up on how bad it is before fixing it.

 

Who else really heals? Oberon? His healing is pathetic, he's barely built for it. Trinity's a HEALING support frame, made for HEALING and SUPPORTING team mates. I don't even main Trinity and I'd be upset to see her get slammed into the ground again. She needs her kit looked at, and her 4 left untouched because it's just fine where it is.

Edited by WingedCrusade
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