Dev Workshop Part 2: ...& more Warframe Changes.

[(PSN)Cwellann]

Damage Resistance % = 100 - Square (Average(Tenno Health%)).

So, currently it's what, 99.3% damage reduction on a standard self damage build, right? (300 health, bomb yourself to 2, 298/300=99.3...)
That's a 150x multiplier on EHP, which is certainly a thing that trivializes content.

New version, assuming you just pick up current tactics and plop 'em on over (which is dumb, I know)
1-((1+1+1+let's call it 0)/4)^2)=43.75%
That's a 2.3x multiplier on EHP.  This will of course be even lower in an 8 man Trial.

Please feel free to correct my math.

With no changes to how Blessing works, it's still reactionary, like Knot said, which, yet again, with the TTK enemies have at sortie3/raid level, just isn't going to work with this.  I've gotten through nightmare LoR before without a bless, and I don't do it anymore because it's not fun.  At all.

Edit:  @Revahawx  When TTK is instant, skill has literally nothing to do with it.  

Edited May 27, 2016 by (PS4)Cwellann
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[Tenedranox]

Great stuff so far. I really like the way these nerfs (adjustments) went.

So we all know the biggest problem with bladestorm is its press4towin-ish-ness. A while ago i made some thoughts how to improve Ash overall, because imo the overusage of bs is also because of the lack of fun/power of his other abilities. The following is not only for his bladestorm, but also for his remaining kit. I hope u get perhaps inspired by this and develop some more fancy stuff for us.

Its a lot to read, so u may wanna skip to bladestorm first ^^

Quote

 

Just a idea how to improve limbo a bit. I really enjoy the idea that he becomes a super fast powerhouse while in the rift, but the sad truth is still: the moment u pop ur cataclysm ur dead. So my suggestion is to give the rift a buff, enemies entering the rift the first time get super confused, because of the new properties the other dimension has. They cant properly move and are completely disorientated. The stronger a unit is the faster they can pull themselfs together and get a clear mind. For every following visit in the rift they become immune to this confusion. This way limbo is still the frame who guess for the big guys, but perhaps with less risk to die.

[Neightrix]

27 minutes ago, WhatDuhHells said:

Valkyr's only good point was invincibility. I'd say she needs a rework, but to nerf the only reason she's "good" just makes her more useless than she already was

You've never done a proper Warcry Valkyr with Life Strike on a well-build heavy blade if you think that. She's a monster with double attack speed and armor. Hysteria is still there if you get into a bad spot... and Paralysis > finisher kills everything.

[EurobeatBandit]

5 minutes ago, YagoXiten said:

If something is OP, adding more OP options does not, in fact, fix balance. That only addresses diversity. Diversity is an issue mostly because balance is an issue. Not the other way around.

Balance. With infinite scaling enemies. In a PVE game.

Cool, have fun with your changes. I don't feel like playing this game anymore. 

[R34LM]

12 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

How long have you been around

U8, so I have been around long enough to see enemy scaling go out of control

Oberon got buffs, but it hasn't helped him in endgame.

And, as I said, nerfs are quicker, reworks of Excalibur, mag, ember and the lot took way longer and were of less priority.

[Raistlinamon]

7 hours ago, NightElve said:

DE has a problem from reading community feedback, correct me if im wrong but high ranked players are not fond of using Excal and Valkyr and if they happen to use it mostly then is to counter a broken scaling system, i actually perceived this frames were made for new or mid level players, to help them cope up with enemies as they level up, i personally don't use Valkyr and Excal(only on Draco) to some extent this changes were kind of uncalled for, (correct me if i'm wrong), and DE is better getting player feedback from the normal community Region chat, YouTube channels thats were pure honest reviews are spoken, without any bias-ness, Correct me if i'm wrong again, getting feedback from Forums seems damaging: Why? most players here are far... ranked up, and do seek endgame experience and challenges(topics here are far subjective), but the overall community should be brought into this to, it's like bagging 5 fruits and letting the other 40 roat.. ((my point there is a true contrast or preference gap to what goes in the Forums and the majority community)).

i long for the day sir when you hit the max MR and finally learn that DE should not build everything so you just run 1 c rotation and out.. 4 and out or 20 and out.. some of us like the grindy stuff for the chance at moar lewts.. we are the elite end game players who turn to these things and raid to actually have a challenge.. we need the cheese frames with their 5-6 forma build to even have a chance making it to 80+minutes in a T4S. excal is great.. even after the rework and renerf.

[Neightrix]

8 minutes ago, WarmNoodles said:

Balance. With infinite scaling enemies. In a PVE game.

Cool, have fun with your changes. I don't feel like playing this game anymore. 

Bye then.

I've yet to see a reasonable explanation as to why enemies shouldn't scale infinitely. You could argue that they become more difficult too quickly, but there's no reason anyone *should* stay in an endless mission for 2 hours. You've gotten several drops. Are you not tired of it? Even if you're not, extract.

Personally I would prefer an option to start at a higher enemy level in the void, perhaps with very slight better drops (no forma bps or cells) and a tad slower scaling before things get crazy.

I suppose they could just remove the endless portion and force you to leave.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Neightrix

[GreyEnneract]

1 minute ago, R34LM said:

U8, so I have been around long enough to see enemy scaling go out of control

Oberon got buffs, but it hasn't helped him in endgame.

And, as I said, nerfs are quicker, reworks of Excalibur, mag, ember and the lot took way longer and were of less priority.

There have been just as many buffs as there are nerfs.

No on here is saying enemy scaling isn't a problem. These nerfs are still needed.

Cheese should not be allowed by either side.

[YagoXiten]

2 minutes ago, WarmNoodles said:

Balance. With infinite scaling enemies. In a PVE game.

Cool, have fun with your changes. I don't feel like playing this game anymore. 

Last I checked, there's still balance in PvE games. This is to gate progression and to ensure fun can be had by all members of a group.

It's also completely possible to have infinitely scaling enemies and static player characters and still have balance. Assuming you can infinitely avoid your enemies, even one damage will eventually kill something with a billion health.  And just because enemies scale infinitely does not mean you have to be able to do so, too. There IS a point where you should want to stop. The reason you go past that is to try to get further than last time. Just for the challenge. You don't have to be able to do it.

 

 

[honeycream]

18 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

*May 27th Addition:

Trinity Changes
Blessing: Blessing now heals Allies within the shared Tenno Affinity aura range. This Tenno Affinity aura range is a new UI feature available to all players beside the Shield Stat. This range is 50 meters from Trinity. 

moment of silence for trin users.  hallway heroes are gonna be insufferable to heal now lmao.

that 50 meter range is awful given how big a lot of maps are.

Edited May 27, 2016 by honeycream

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

13 hours ago, Magnulast said:

Blessing is now capped at 97% damage reduction.

Eh???

That's the problem: the very high damage reduction ... and it's spammable ... no CDs; no penalties (as Trinity can generate the energy right back, too!).

That's why one toon doesn't get all of the perks. There's tradeoffs. Cast times; moving penalties; enemy can take abilities away; enemy can bleed the mana away faster than regen/abilities can provide. So the frame can experience ... RISK.

At this stage the only 2 things missing out of Trinity's build to be a Goddess of all, is Loki's Invisibility and Mag's shield Polarize. She could solo the raids, then!

PvE games I'd say "who cares", but after taking her out to kill infested, soloing them to level 60 (very casually and could probably take them to level 100+ without a scatch) is when to question why God Mode exists in a public game. It's fun, but that's seriously broken mechanics that makes content TOO trivial (and CAUSES the armor scaling problem in the first place!).

[DuskLegendary]

19 minutes ago, Latiac said:

No no no no no. This pretty much kills things like LOR now.

 

My thoughts exactly. See, I noticed about half of the people are here are just so overjoyed that basically we will no longer be doing things they don't like like blinding the whole map (Why is this a problem? You guys do realize this is a PVE game and not a PVP game don't you? That everything we do benefits you and doesn't hurt you?) well, you're right, if DE decides to go through with this, Raids and Nightmare Raids are going to be a lot more difficult.

So, let me get this straight here. Something works a little better than intended and alleviates some of the broken enemy scaling and one shot nonsense, and they want to take that away? I'm sorry if I sound extremely negative here, but I've been thinking about it, and I think after this upcoming nerf wave hits, I'm going to leave the game. I mean, I don't want to leave the game, I love this game, but what choice do I have when all of the viable end game frames and abilities keep on getting nerfed into the ground?! 

How am I supposed to contend with higher tier content at this rate? The root of the problem is being ignored, which is enemy scaling.

Edited May 27, 2016 by DuskLegendary

[Latiac]

1 minute ago, DuskLegendary said:

My thoughts exactly. See, I noticed about half of the people are here are just so smug and overjoyed that basically we will no longer be doing things they don't like like blinding the whole map (Why is this a problem? You guys do realize this is a PVE game and not a PVP game don't you? That everything we do benefits you and doesn't hurt you?) well, you're right, if DE decides to go through with this, Raids and Nightmare Raids are going to be a lot more difficult.

So, let me get this straight here. Something works a little better than intended and alleviates some of the broken enemy scaling and one shot nonsense, and they want to take that away? I'm sorry if I sound extremely negative here, but I've been thinking about it, and I think after this upcoming nerf wave hits, I'm going to leave the game. I mean, I don't want to leave the game, I love this game, but what choice do I have when all of the viable end game frames and abilities keep on getting nerfed into the ground?! 

How am I supposed to contend with higher tier content at this rate? The root of the problem is being ignored, which is enemy scaling.

 

The only issue with Blessing was the Self damaging players IMO - Take away the bonus from damage dealt to yourself and Trinity would still be in a good position.

[Latiac]

I'm still asking often about Saryn, There is a feedback thread for the Trinity changes, but the Saryn one was abandoned and eventually locked and it appears DE completely ignored most of us asking for more changes to her, Hopefully Trinity isn't the same.

Edited May 27, 2016 by [DE]Taylor
removed inflammatory comment.

[BaronessBlacksilk]

Will the Blessing range increase with the Focus passive to increase XP share range?

[Insizer]

Blessing is not Trinity's problem. Her problem is that she can fully regen her squad's health and fully regen her squad's energy.

To me at least, all Warframe abilities are, by nature, overpowered. Some abilities may be more helpful and powerful than others, but they are all, by design, made to allow us to take on hundreds of enemies with frightening efficiency. We clear entire military bases within 10 minutes. Some of that comes down to our weapons, but some of it comes down to our abilities. Regardless, each unit warfame energy contains a large amount of combat potential. This potential is balanced (or somewhat balanced) by the requirement of energy orbs, specific mod and focus school loadouts. Allowing Trinity, or any frame for that matter, to fully regen her squad's energy within a couple ticks (assuming your allies take a tick or two to recognize and kill the EV'd target) tears this tedious balance apart. There is no reason for any modding energy efficient loadouts when, thanks to one single ability, you are guaranteed to never run out of energy (unless you are using a toggle ability or if the Trinity user is... unique). I run Volt Prime (+ full rank Primed Flow) often and use his electrical abilities so liberally that I am personally responsible for sending both Edison and Tesla gleefully jumping in their graves due to excitement and awe. I have met my fair share of Trinities and not once whilst in their presence have I run below ~60% energy. Believe me, I have tried. I once stood still and did nothing but deploy E.Shields again and again... never once got below ~50% energy. My point is that EV's shear effectiveness eliminates all attempts to balance our powerful abilities and ruin the game in my opinion.

To me, Trinity should either regen health or regen energy, but not both unless she half-a$$es both. Preferably, get rid of her ability to regen energy because it is extremely game-breaking and because Trinity's kit is more healer than walking battery. 

This is me tossing an idea on the board, but personally I would:

• Make Link also link to allies (different number, separate from the number of enemy links) and do something for them.
  • A neat idea would be for Trinity to have a secondary health pool. Linked allies will have their health regenerated from this pool. Linked enemies will have their health drained into this pool. This gives Trinity a way to sustain her allies without casting WoL or Blessing again and again.
• Replace EV with something that interacts with allies that are Linked and enemies that are Linked or caught in Well of Life.

[YagoXiten]

14 minutes ago, DuskLegendary said:

My thoughts exactly. See, I noticed about half of the people are here are just so overjoyed that basically we will no longer be doing things they don't like like blinding the whole map (Why is this a problem? You guys do realize this is a PVE game and not a PVP game don't you? That everything we do benefits you and doesn't hurt you?) well, you're right, if DE decides to go through with this, Raids and Nightmare Raids are going to be a lot more difficult.

So, let me get this straight here. Something works a little better than intended and alleviates some of the broken enemy scaling and one shot nonsense, and they want to take that away? I'm sorry if I sound extremely negative here, but I've been thinking about it, and I think after this upcoming nerf wave hits, I'm going to leave the game. I mean, I don't want to leave the game, I love this game, but what choice do I have when all of the viable end game frames and abilities keep on getting nerfed into the ground?! 

How am I supposed to contend with higher tier content at this rate? The root of the problem is being ignored, which is enemy scaling.

I like challenge. I have the equipment to run anything I want. And so even if I want a new Prime, and the best way to get that is to run a long survival, if you come into a group with me, and remove the challenge, then I am no longer having fun. And that removes my reward. Because the new Prime is not my main concern.

Viable means 'capable of working successfully' not 'the tier reserved for the best'. I assure you that you are perfectly capable of completing all the content in this game without resorting to blinding enemies multiple rooms away. Line of Sight nerfs do not and have not and will not 'nerf something into the ground'. It is going to require that you are at least in the same room as your enemies. You can still toss Prism up into the air of a room and hit pretty much everything.

 

5 minutes ago, Insizer said:

Blessing is not Trinity's problem. Her problem is that she can fully regen her squad's health and fully regen her squad's energy.

To me at least, all Warframe abilities are, by nature, overpowered. Some abilities may be more helpful and powerful than others, but they are all, by design, made to allow us to take on hundreds of enemies with frightening efficiency. We clear entire military bases within 10 minutes. Some of that comes down to our weapons, but some of it comes down to our abilities. Regardless, each unit warfame energy contains a large amount of combat potential. This potential is balanced (or somewhat balanced) by the requirement of energy orbs, specific mod and focus school loadouts. Allowing Trinity, or any frame for that matter, to fully regen her squad's energy within a couple ticks (assuming your allies take a tick or two to recognize and kill the EV'd target) tears this tedious balance apart. There is no reason for any modding energy efficient loadouts when, thanks to one single ability, you are guaranteed to never run out of energy (unless you are using a toggle ability or if the Trinity user is... unique). I run Volt Prime (+ full rank Primed Flow) often and use his electrical abilities so liberally that I am personally responsible for sending both Edison and Tesla gleefully jumping in their graves due to excitement and awe. I have met my fair share of Trinities and not once whilst in their presence have I run below ~60% energy. Believe me, I have tried. I once stood still and did nothing but deploy E.Shields again and again... never once got below ~50% energy. My point is that EV's shear effectiveness eliminates all attempts to balance our powerful abilities and ruin the game in my opinion.

To me, Trinity should either regen health or regen energy, but not both unless she half-a$$es both. Preferably, get rid of her ability to regen energy because it is extremely game-breaking and because Trinity's kit is more healer than walking battery. 

This is me tossing an idea on the board, but personally I would:

• Make Link also link to allies (different number, separate from the number of enemy links) and do something for them.
  • A neat idea would be for Trinity to have a secondary health pool. Linked allies will have their health regenerated from this pool. Linked enemies will have their health drained into this pool. This gives Trinity a way to sustain her allies without casting WoL or Blessing again and again.
• Replace EV with something that interacts with allies that are Linked and enemies that are Linked or caught in Well of Life.

Correct, Blessing is not her biggest balance flaw. It is, however, still an ability that does too much for a single ability. Before this nerf hits, it's power budget is sufficient enough that I could literally remove my 1, 2, and 3 keys off of my keyboard and still be worth taking into a tough mission. The same is also true of Energy Vampire. She needs a complete rework. I quit playing her a long time ago because after I got my Corrupted mods shortly after they were released, and they changed Energy Vampire and Well of Life to what they are now,  as I realized how boring she was since there was no risk whatsoever to playing her.

Edited May 27, 2016 by YagoXiten

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

1 minute ago, DuskLegendary said:

My thoughts exactly. See, I noticed about half of the people are here are just so overjoyed that basically we will no longer be doing things they don't like like blinding the whole map (Why is this a problem? You guys do realize this is a PVE game and not a PVP game don't you? That everything we do benefits you and doesn't hurt you?) well, you're right, if DE decides to go through with this, Raids and Nightmare Raids are going to be a lot more difficult.

THAT should be difficult! That's "end-game" where a player tests their mettle.

Raids are about communication and coordination with a GROUP. It's not a race to the extraction zone in 1 minute. It's suppose to be challenging and you'll experience MANY wipes for the loot (why when you get that loot you'll even appreciate getting it! Christmas time!!!).

Mechanics in Warframe now is LFR mode with starting zone eaze at that "end-game" level, because the frames were tuned for solo play, NOT group play. Add a Trinity with 99% armor reduction, it's even trivial (seriously, how did that even get past QA? That's like when Blizzard allowed Holy Paladins to one-shot content with Holy Shock as a healer ... "Houston, we have a problem").

I'm like the next guy who loves a particular avatar and sticks with it, but come on, some of these frames have abilities that in hindsight CAUSED the problems we see in the game -- and the Dracos (because sure, min-maxers will find another hot spot to level ... but with deaths, and losing Affinity/rewards and more, too. Their K/Ds will reflect that they're veterans even!).

[Giantconch]

Well... .... ...

 

Can't say I'm happy about nerfing the F*** out of these frames without fixing broken enemy scaling at the same time but whatever right...

[Neightrix]

3 minutes ago, DuskLegendary said:

 (Why is this a problem? You guys do realize this is a PVE game and not a PVP game don't you? That everything we do benefits you and doesn't hurt you?)

So, let me get this straight here. Something works a little better than intended and alleviates some of the broken enemy scaling and one shot nonsense, and they want to take that away? I'm sorry if I sound extremely negative here, but I've been thinking about it, and I think after this upcoming nerf wave hits, I'm going to leave the game. I mean, I don't want to leave the game, I love this game, but what choice do I have when all of the viable end game frames and abilities keep on getting nerfed into the ground?! 

How am I supposed to contend with higher tier content at this rate? The root of the problem is being ignored, which is enemy scaling.

It does not benefit me to stop having fun. I don't need you to come into a sortie and make all of the enemies harmless, which you can still do in some environments. I did a raid yesterday as EV where Mirage had no range and Loki forgot the ID augment. We got shocked once on the pads, but it went fine otherwise. I think high level content is something to be worked towards, not easily accessible with cheese.

Enemies being broken is a separate issue, and it's definitely something that should be talked about. Leaving broken frames broken doesn't fix it and it keeps the focus on the wrong issues. Personally, I think you should get a Quick Thinking effect for both shield and health depletion with a very brief period of unvulnerability(called shield gates and health gates in other games). I'd also put in a very obvious visual effect and/or HUD element so you know when this happens. No more surprise insta-deaths, and powerful enemies can stay powerful.

Enemies only scale in endless and some sorties. It isn't a problem. If it gets too hard, extract and use another key.

[Shockwave-]

Trinity' blessing changes are a bit too much, with the ability to be one hit killed on LOR or Sorties (not 5 hour endless missions you should have been out of by then).

The fact that WF doesn't really allow for a slow health degeneration (giving people unlimted health restore and easy ways to heal) this nerf is a bit over the top. I'd love to play trinity as having to watch my friends health and heal them before they get to 0 to save them, but when it tends to be very easy or one shot = death and little in between that is not the game we are playing. That should be the game DE is shooting for but this nerf should come at the same time as a nerf to enemy damage.

Wtih this change you can get 44%dmg reduction with bless and heal, but only in 50 meters. It now will not prevent death from a one shot kill in most cases and is unlikely to heal yoru friends unless you are all clumped together (so sabotage, survival and spy missions it's useless for healing your team)

The unlimited energy is the root of most of the problems with power creep and balance so EV should have been nerfed and left blessing be.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Shockwave-

[Magnulast]

22 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Eh???

That's the problem: the very high damage reduction ... and it's spammable ... no CDs; no penalties (as Trinity can generate the energy right back, too!).

That's why one toon doesn't get all of the perks. There's tradeoffs. Cast times; moving penalties; enemy can take abilities away; enemy can bleed the mana away faster than regen/abilities can provide. So the frame can experience ... RISK.

At this stage the only 2 things missing out of Trinity's build to be a Goddess of all, is Loki's Invisibility and Mag's shield Polarize. She could solo the raids, then!

PvE games I'd say "who cares", but after taking her out to kill infested, soloing them to level 60 (very casually and could probably take them to level 100+ without a scatch) is when to question why God Mode exists in a public game. It's fun, but that's seriously broken mechanics that makes content TOO trivial (and CAUSES the armor scaling problem in the first place!).

Sorry, anyway......99% damage reduction is 99%

97% damage reduction increases the damage taken by 3x from 99%

It may not make sense at first or at all....or it's just a stupid idea of mine in general.

Bless is only spamable. but it's not entirely controllable.to a extent.

Maybe making the cast time longer?

[R34LM]

31 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

There have been just as many buffs as there are nerfs.

No on here is saying enemy scaling isn't a problem. These nerfs are still needed.

Cheese should not be allowed by either side.

I made and edit to my original post, but aside from the damage reduction changes for blessing, the changes here are justified.

What I don't understand is why no enemy with an aoe ability has a line of sight check, or why seeker pistols do more damage per bullet then their bombs, or why snipers don't have an aiming laser, or why multiple commanders or enemies with pull chains stun lock us constantly.

That's my argument I'm presenting; enemies have been allowed to cheese for way too long. The only time they have been reigned back is when shock eximus got the boot, but they still don't have a line of sight check. Enemy nerfs should be taking priority at this point, as any issues dealing with high level content had only ended with nerfs to the playerbase recently.

[(PSN)Blecmail]

Please do not nerf bless trinity ,excaliblade and blade storm ash

If you nerf bless trinity all of you wont be able to do LoR or LoR nightmare

So in other words i do not agree to a bless trinity nerf

Peace out

[Kothophed]

Why are nerfs so much more prevalent than buffs.  How is that whatever the 'meta' is seldom lasts a month while things like Panthera, Limbo and anything related to Machetes is unplayable after Jupiter...for over a year.