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Dev Workshop Part 2: ...& more Warframe Changes.


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48 minutes ago, (PS4)Cwellann said:

One of the biggest problems with EB is there is no incentive to do anything other than spam circle/E, with the sole exception of use of the slide blind.  While I totally understand the energy management part, and don't feel it's really going to hurt him too much, I do hope you all continue to look at the EB stance.  I personally would be completely fine with a pretty heavy (relatively) nerf to the base attack combo, if the other attacks did more than slowed me down via animation lock.  This, to me, goes in the opposite direction.  I'll get more damage and incentive out of using actual RB, then spamming waves at the stuff I just blinded, than doing 3 or 4 slide attacks to take out the entire group.  Slide attacks, as a whole, deal heavy damage, and if I'm being charged energy for that, ok fine, but if it's just being charged for the blind I may or may not need... I like the concept behind the changes, and have zero issue with wave dropoff, but that part kind of irks me.

Indeed, I've only seen at least 1 excal other than myself use other combos in PUGs before. To further make use of other combos, why not give a little bit more incentive when using different combos like a longer range before damage drop-off from the final slash from one combo and then the last 1 or 2 attacks of another combo would have more punch-through. This way people would learn to pick which combos to use given the scenario they're in. 

On the part of mini blind costing energy, I'd rather we just remove that completely. I use the slide attack for the attack itself instead of the mini blind it gives. Kinda sad now that I'll soon be forced to just not use the slide attack at all due to something I don't really intend to use that came along with it.

Nothing about the beam range so I guess it'll be the same. Maybe one day, if they wanna adjust it some more, make the beam damage not drop off but instead disappear after a certain amount of targets get hit, like 2-3 targets and then finally buff the combo counter duration on it.

I like the drop-off so excals can finally go at it at melee range at least. As Reb said, it'll be more engaging now. I just hope the mini blind costing energy wasn't part of that statement.

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I was only making a logical observation on the topic at hand.

Excalibur was a turret, and not a melee user. That is why he is being changed, not because he is the most efficient way to farm Focus. Because a Stealth Frame with a High-range Melee on a Solo Exterminate is the best way to do it. (45 minutes or less, for 100k)

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3 minutes ago, AM-Bunny said:

Totally disagree - whatever they do to Blessing, the one thing I hope they maintain is the infinite range.

Warframe is a pretty mobile game, and I think it's important for a healer to be able to reach anyone at a moment's notice. It would really break the flow of gameplay if you had to stop what you're doing and run over to Trinity, ask for healing, and stand there for a few seconds while you're recovering.

I mean, Nezha can heal allies in a short radius, and how seriously is he regarded as a healer?

On the Range subject, I don't think it should be the level it is right now. Defined as "infinite" in the Wiki, and in testing.

While I do agree with some of your points, I feel that if nothing happens to the ability in the functionality department that it will most definitely need a range cap. Doesn't have to be a super duper low one, just something that makes more sense for what it is.

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Regarding Prism, the balance change is fine since the mapwide blind lockdown made for very dull gameplay. However, I am still not seeing any real incentive to keep the Prism active at high levels since the damage falls off drastically due to Armor.

What I am hoping is that the lasers themselves can blind their targets, but similar to Inaros' Desiccation, this blind only works while the enemies being hit are facing the Prism. This element of limited targets crowd control makes investing into a prolonged Prism activation worthwhile, and provides more incentive to move away from the cast-detonate-recast blind stun technique that I'm sure many Mirages have used (for cheesing or just energy-efficient CC).

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Just now, AEP8FlyBoy said:

On the Range subject, I don't think it should be the level it is right now. Defined as "infinite" in the Wiki, and in testing.

While I do agree with some of your points, I feel that if nothing happens to the ability in the functionality department that it will most definitely need a range cap. Doesn't have to be a super duper low one, just something that makes more sense for what it is.

Yeah, but my personal preference would be that the functionality is nerfed and the range is maintained.

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@[DE]Rebecca If these Excalibur changes do come, can we at least increase the duration and range of the mini-Radial Blind to be at least half of the main Radial Blind. This will justify the mini-Radial Blind costing half of the main Radial Blind. Can we also have the Radiant Finish augment work with the mini-Radial Blind or have the blinded enemies open to finishers/stealth attacks? Thank you as always DE.

Edited by (PS4)xXDEATH_GODXx
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Blessing Rework Suggestion:

Cap the shared damage resist somewhere between 50% and 75% (this is really the source of the balance problems with Trinity Bless isn't it?).  Introduce range limits as a form of aura around Trinity where those in range get the heal and resist and those outside who then enter the range then get the heal and resist buff. Teammates who then leave the range keep the buff (or keep it at reduced duration?). Cap personal damage resist for the Trinity at 90-95%. Maybe remove Bless restoring shields?

Then there's how she charges the blessing mechanic.  I don't have a suggestion for that yet but I want something that's still relatively controllable but not really like mend.

Edited by KnotOfMetal
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Any thought for Trinity's Blessing: 

Same base effect as now (Protection is % based on lowest amount of pvs), but not healing instant. 

Heal is overtime, same for shielding. 

Health and shields regenerated is a value (300 per example) affected by power strengh. 

If not enough powerful, oversdhields can be replenish overtime with shield regeneration.

(sorry for approximate terms, not very good in english)

Edited by Siolith
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2 minutes ago, xShun said:

Indeed, I've only seen at least 1 excal other than myself use other combos in PUGs before. To further make use of other combos, why not give a little bit more incentive when using different combos like a longer range before damage drop-off from the final slash from one combo and then the last 1 or 2 attacks of another combo would have more punch-through. This way people would learn to pick which combos to use given the scenario they're in. 

On the part of mini blind costing energy, I'd rather we just remove that completely. I use the slide attack for the attack itself instead of the mini blind it gives. Kinda sad now that I'll soon be forced to just not use the slide attack at all due to something I don't really intend to use that came along with it.

Nothing about the beam range so I guess it'll be the same. Maybe one day, if they wanna adjust it some more, make the beam damage not drop off but instead disappear after a certain amount of targets get hit, like 2-3 targets and then finally buff the combo counter duration on it.

I like the drop-off so excals can finally go at it at melee range at least. As Reb said, it'll be more engaging now. I just hope the mini blind costing energy wasn't part of that statement.

The mini blind doesn't really blind or open enemies to synch kills - it merely staggers so removing it would make sense if it is considered offensive - I have to use Radial Blind during Exalted Blade usually to synch kill enemies at sortie level as most of the time, normal weapons lose ability to kill at that point. Personally, I already used Exalted Blade in melee, it does the full damage currently at point blank range while the sword waves only do a small portion of the Exalted Blade's damage. Honestly, I expected this, I bet the enemy scaling isn't even being looked at.

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1 minute ago, AM-Bunny said:

Yeah, but my personal preference would be that the functionality is nerfed and the range is maintained.

I suppose that would be fair enough.

Oh... I remember the days of infinite range and straight-up invincibility for 30 seconds... Good times.
Bad for Balance though.

Edited by AEP8FlyBoy
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15 minutes ago, (PS4)Sreza said:

Any chance we can get Limbo changed so that we can pick up items in the Rift? He's gotten a lot of nice subtle changes to make him more useful and all.. but he's just never going to be a fun frame if you have to disable your buffs and go fully vulnerable just to go back and pick up the items enemies dropped (and that's not even going into the terrible trolling potential of casting cataclysm to prevent your team from picking up a drop).

Even if you reworked Rift Surge to give 10x the damage buff it does now, it just still won't be very fun to play him, and there will always be that naggin risk of "do i really want to play with a limbo on the team?" even if they're not trying to troll, they can end up doing it by accident just due to cataclysm being cataclysm.

IMO it makes no sense to have an anti-looting mechanic in a game where your primary method of progression is looting.

Couldn't agree more with you.

Before I got him, and WAY back when I played with a friend who loved Limbo (soon after he was released), he seemed like a really fun, and useful, frame to use. After farming his parts, which I can't describe how frustrating it was without using expletives (lets just say I had more than enough cryotic to build the Sibear afterward), I was extremely disappointed with how you couldn't continue carrying an item when you entered the Rift. I thought he would've been useful in defense and excavation type missions, but making it so items can't be picked up/carried at all while in the Rift, whether Banish/Rift Walk or Cataclysm, completely shot down that idea. I haven't even finished leveling Limbo because of this, and I would have sold him to free the slot if it weren't for how goddamn frustrating it was to get his parts.

For example: If I am in the Rift, and so is a power core/datamass (because of Cataclysm) it doesn't make sense that I can't pick up the power core/datamass. If I pick up a power core/datamass, then enter the Rift (Banish/Rift Walk or Cataclysm), it doesn't make sense that the item is dropped. You can interact with enemies when you are both on the Rift Plane, so I don't see why the same doesn't apply to pick ups.

Granted, I could just be misunderstanding the way the Rift Plane works.

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Leaving things alone is what brought us to this moment in time, friend.

A balance pass was due to come sometime. Just so happens that Trinity and Ash are in the big bowl of balance soup at the moment.

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3 minutes ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

I suppose that would be fair enough.

Oh... I remember the days of infinite range and straight-up invincibility for 30 seconds... Good times.
Bad for Balance though.

Yup.

If they really want to nerf Blessing, they should just bring back the old casting animation. She'd only have time to use it once or twice a mission by the time she finished the animation. 

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These are some poor changes honestly. They address parts of a Warframe's kit that might be too strong (and honestly really isn't for Excalibur), without considering that the strong part is basically the only thing the frame has going for it. Mirage might be okay - but Valkyr is really pretty boring to play, she's only popular for the ongoing invulnerability and ability to just not die; without that, she sucks. All her other abilities are mediocre. Excalibur though, it actually makes me wonder if the people in charge of balance actually play the game. Even an Excalibur kitted out to focus entirely on Exalted Blade is going to be not amazing to play, and he doesn't scale amazingly with it even.

Address underplayed frames and bring them up to the level of the frames that are popular and fun to play instead of just making every frame lame, thanks.

Edited by Blastcage
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Just now, AM-Bunny said:

Yup.

If they really want to nerf Blessing, they should just bring back the old casting animation. She'd only have time to use it once or twice a mission by the time she finished the animation. 

Exaggeration is apparent. Duly noted.
What do you think of the other frames receiving balance passes?

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23 minutes ago, Rankii said:

I already know this one: "we need saryn to heal before we beat her again."

Let's be honest, there's a snowball's chance in hell that any frame that is remotely popular will get anything resembling a buff. Limbo's getting a spitshine at best and oberon is so covered in his own feces that he doesn't even notice the smell. Zephyr's on suicide watch since movement 2.0, and hydroid would have drowned himself ages ago if only he could.

But hey! At least new players can feel better now that they won't be outpreformed by the frames that worked. it's something, right?

You made my day lol!

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I always liked that picture of Alad V, gives the humanizing effect to the 'I cut things up that I think are living people and Frankenstein their parts for profit'. Balance goes both ways. A change to players can't be made without changing the environment they inhabit. There is a reason design wise for these abilities. The Trials require Trinity in two different builds because the manner in which they were created. For many players, Mirage's Prism was also a requirement in recruiting. How many players want Oberon in their trials? Even though in theory, a generalist would be good in such a situation, the Trials are not balanced for anything but 'Cheese'.

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25 minutes ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

You're looking upon this whole thing too negatively, nothing is set in stone yet as they are just reviewing the abilities. Even if Trinity get's changed, if you really value playing with her and being the awesome medic on the team, you wouldn't stop using her just because of a minor change that should've been made long ago.

Unless you've come to rely on her infinite range, 99% damage reduction for 30 seconds power for what it is... and not what it should've been all along. I've said this before, do you really think her Blessing should be able to heal teammates from literal miles away?

Hard not to look at this negatively. It's DE. I've seen their nerfs in the past. As I've said in the past: They do one awesome thing but then do something like this like a slap in the face followed by "DON'T GET USED TO IT", like they're afraid their playerbase might actually be able to enjoy something and count on it staying a certain way. I do value playing her, but I'd immediately stop if they just made her 4th become no better than Oberon or Equinox, because what's the point of limiting myself to just support if the support I'm giving is no better than the frames that give support and do other things too? There isn't one, other than just being an EV battery for everyone, which means she'd just be a one-trick pony.

It's not that I rely on these things, it's that these things are what separate her from Oberon and Equinox. If all her 4th does is heal people, then why even use her over Oberon or Equinox who do the same thing? She'd become a trash frame in an instant except for EV, which is already ridiculous as it is. If anything needs adjustments, it's EV, not Blessing.

 

But, you know, what does the opinion of a Trin main mean over the thousands of people who have never played Trin who think blessing should be nerfed? That's why I just give up giving feedback on this whole game. The fanbase that sucks up anything DE does makes anyone with a different opinion feel like an insignificant speck who should just stop existing altogether.

Edited by Valsako
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About Excalibur

 

i really hope exalted changes come along some visual changes making waves fading as damage fall of, but i love it

i may start using excal again

but why dont yu give him a proper slide atck instead of a litle radial blind?

it will totally resolve the issue

 

Could radial javelin be reworked as well? like scale with melee mods (elemental and damages)  and exalted blade??

it will give it some utilities and some synergy

 

 

Edited by Tsoe
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With Valkyr as my 'main' 'frame - I kinda wish they would remove the complete invulnerability for Hysteria. There are other ways to make it still useful ability. She has the ability to self-heal, as long as she rampages and kills enemies. What they could do, is let people use their own melee weapons instead of the claws, while giving a proportionate buff to the damage.

Just a thought. :)

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Maybe someone already said it but most who complain about immortal blessing builds are the receivers. 

They don't have to do anything and get the service, so it looks 'easy' get duration, and bless right? 
well they forget to get this you going to need:
maxed corrupt mods(not hard but already a thing to farm and max before obtaining)
forma like 3 times to fit the mods. (including aura cause her base aura slot works against the bless build)
Get the right glaive to fit your build if you happen to have slight variations(again not hard, but still a crucial item)

And the hardest part: hope to jesus you don't get paired with rejuvenation, physique, steel charge
(Note:i keep using glaive here  cause the other self hurt options are too self hurting or take a higher time to reapply compare to the glaive hurting)

That is without mentioning actually doing this ritual in the missions and all the risks that come up there. Its a high risk high reward skill, i don't see a reason to change.

O almost forgot, this whole immortal build pretty much kills ev, and link in terms of range so you have that too, gimping 2 powers on the frame just to get this ever lasting heal on raids and defense sorties. 
You think its nerf worthy if so much must be done beforehand and it pretty much takes you from doing much else in the mission cause you gotta play the ''lets count to 30 seconds and toss glaive or we lose the raid'' game?

But hey that is just me, if you guys see something i miss and that could be the reason why it does need to be nerfed pls tell me. 

Edit: i know under review does not mean 'nerf', but if you like candy, and your mom says she going to look in your candy jar, its probably to take the jar away from you or change the candy in it with healthy options, its just sweet talk before the kill. And also, when did we see DE tell use they will  take a peek at something and keep it intact?  for better or worse they change it.  I love DE but i know they like to commit to something if they mention it. And this blessing candy jar is already risky to eat from, a nerf would make it not worth the hassle, that is my concern. 

Edited by SkarmXD
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Better late than never I guess. Though with how used to this stuff everyone has gotten that will no doubt be a minority opinion.

This should have been done shortly after the first Trial launched, long before the release of Sorties. Any anger received through this was earned through negligence.

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