Dev Workshop Part 2: ...& more Warframe Changes.

[AM-Bunny]

33 minutes ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

What do you think of the other frames receiving balance passes?

Well, like I said, for those of us that have settled into how these Warframes currently function, change will be hard. Of course the knee-jerk reaction is to cry 'no! no! no!' but part of me knows that this is for the best. I'm going to try and approach it with an open mind and give it some time to sink in.

The only part that's really concerning for me is the 'ramping up' on Valkyr's energy cost. Currently, it's very cheap to keep toggles running, and it's not hard to maintain Artemis Bow, World on Fire, Maim, whatever for an entire mission. Especially considering how these powers interact with Energy Conversion, they're quite powerful. I'm really worried that 'ramping up' energy cost will be applied to more - if not all - toggles in the future. Hopefully it just stays on Valkyr.

[TheRandomHunter]

54 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

Hey folks, just a friendly reminder, the developers are looking for feedback regarding Warframe ability changes.

This means that if you don't like how things are being changed, you should voice your opinion following these 3 core guidelines for making good feedback:

1. Identify what you think should (or should not) be changed,
2. Propose alternatives for how you think it should be changed such that it benefits the game,
3. Do so in a respectful, constructive and civil manner.

Making your feedback respectful, constructive and civil in nature makes it more likely to be regarded. Using sarcasm or rudeness as a vehicle for feedback is not recommended. Good feedback doesn't have to be positive, and some of the best feedback is negative (in that it suggests changes or things that can be done to improve the game). But if your feedback fails to remain respectful, it's likely to get removed.

Alright, I'll structure my gripes better:

• Abilities are not the problem, enemy scaling is the problem.

Most of the "problem" abilities are the only useful abilities in high-end content. Damage abilities don't scale. Blessing's resistance is invaluable because it's one of the few things that saves a party from a single 2,000 damage bullet from a lancer killing them. Bladestorm is useful because it bypasses the absurd armor scaling on enemies that makes them practically invulnerable. Things like slowing, blinding, invulnerability, etc. are the only things that stop this, and will continue to be until scaling is fixed. Nerfing the abilities sends a firm message of "We don't want you doing high-level content" because the enemies are staying the same, but the players are being made less capable. It also doesn't help that Warframe survivability has a hard cap without powers. Valkyr can only take so much damage without going into hysteria, and without Life Strike she has absolutely no means of sustainability. Even then, late-game missions like Sorties she'll die extremely fast without being in hysteria, because the cap on her health is far too low, as with all other frames. I'd almost argue Redirection/Vitality/Vigor should all be nerfed, and adding forma should keep base health and shields at the level they were prior to formaing. When you relevel the frame, you get more health and shields, to a certain cap of 5 forma or so. It's more grind, which isn't great, but all warframes are stupidly squishy.

• Enemy scaling should be fixed, and then abilities can be balanced around the new enemies.

Right now enemy variety is sorely lacking. You can't add variety without making them utterly cheap or hard to counter as the game stands right now. The solution? Enemy scaling needs to be far more subtle, Enemies tiers should be more pronounced, with power levels consistent and certain enemies only showing up on certain tiers. For example, I'd argue Nullifiers should never spawn on Jupiter, while they'd be free game further on.

Additionally, I'd argue there should be more intelligence with enemies, and more variety overall. They should be faster when running, more adaptable, and pathfinding greatly needs improved. Infested should be able to leap at enemies on perches and deal damage in midair without specifically standing on the same platform as their target. Nullifiers need to be reworked to prevent the casting of Warframe abilities inside their radius, and protect anything inside, not negate them entirely. Nullifier Bubbles should be able to be damaged by Warframe abilities. We could use grunt enemies that are only slightly (say, 75% effectiveness) on crowd control abilities, but only if scaling is fixed, and they should have no other quirks. Bombards need to lose their horribly broken rapid fire homing rockets and get real rocket launchers with larger, slightly faster moving projectiles. We need larger mini-boss style enemies, Bursas would count if they weren't specifically designed to be some of the single most annoying enemies in the game. Enemy invulnerability periods also should never be a thing, it kills the flow of all fights it's involved in.

My overall thought is this:

• Broken abilities are used to counter broken enemies.

If you balance the enemies, you can freely nerf the abilities to better suit the enemies. Also, if the enemies are balanced, there's less worry about a gimmick enemy completely breaking everything. If some enemies are immune to Warframe damage abilities, you're forced to use guns. If you make some enemies resistant to crowd control, they're immediate targets to focus down. If you have large, high damage enemies (Why aren't Jackals normal enemies yet?) they're immediate targets to be focused while lesser enemies are to be avoided or dealt with. I feel there's a lack of depth to enemies, they have no real synergy, it's just endless masses of grunts with annoying nullifiers, manics, and bursas thrown in that nobody likes. If you add enemy synergy now and nerf Warframe abilities, then the game becomes utterly unfun and the broken scaling of the enemies will make things near impossible.

[TrinityPrime]

41 minutes ago, KnotOfMetal said:

Blessing Rework Suggestion:

Cap the shared damage resist somewhere between 50% and 75% (this is really the source of the balance problems with Trinity Bless isn't it?).  Introduce range limits as a form of aura around Trinity where those in range get the heal and resist and those outside who then enter the range then get the heal and resist buff. Teammates who then leave the range keep the buff (or keep it at reduced duration?). Cap personal damage resist for the Trinity at 90-95%. Maybe remove Bless restoring shields?

Then there's how she charges the blessing mechanic.  I don't have a suggestion for that yet but I want something that's still relatively controllable but not really like mend.

Well, I thought it was a good idea given my 'limited' experience using Trinity...

But what do I know, when random players demand energy from my Trinity, I drop an energy restore and waypoint it.

[motorfirebox]

Prism nerf: Yay! I'm tired of Mirage being an instant win button.

Exalted Blade range + damage nerf: Yay! Honestly, I'd still like the overall range to be halved.

Exalted Blade radial blind nerf: eh... was this necessary? The EB RB has a quarter of the range of regular RB, less than half the duration, and doesn't open up finishers. Doesn't seem worth 25 energy to me.

[Fifield]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Cwellann said:

The EV/Bless/Runner/Mirage meta will probably go away, but throw a Vauban in there (already a very common thing), and let the Mirage run around the map instead of being forced to stand on a pad due to low manning, and it shouldn't be that bad.  

That whole room should be reworked.  Having a long puzzle that resets for 8 people every time a single person makes a slight mistake is seriously annoying.

[Nova-Gamer]

3 minutes ago, TheRandomHunter said:

Broken abilities are used to counter broken enemies.

This sums up the entirety of warframe in its current state.

What they need to do is fix enemies such as the following.

• Nullifiers
• Grineer Commanders
• Combas and Scrambus
• Bursas
• Manics
• Scorchers
• Corpus Techs
• Hyakka Masters
• Ancients to some extent

If DE are going to be nerfing/changing the frames that help us deal with enemies such as these then they need to do something about the scaling of these types of units.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Nova-Gamer
Added more critisism

[-dicht.Amducias-]

Hard mirage nerf and you want to adress blessing too? Do you realize that this effectively kills all LoR and JV in recruiting completely? This gamemode totally relies on this because dying or getting pushed once effectively fails / ruins the mission. This will inevitably and finally turn all raids completely into the failed concept that most players already consider them

[SteelBlade17x]

Recently, while doing Rathuum Endurance, enemies kept attacking Ash while in Bladestorm, and crowding at casting point. After Bladestorm ends, Ash will get oneshot by mobs left behind.

Please add or change to make Ash invisible in Smokescreen after Bladestorm ends. Maybe let this feature be affected by number of enemies killed, so that when facing huge mobs. Ash will have time to leave the casting spot. 

[SasoDuck]

PRISM NERF! YES YES YES! No more Mirage's ruining public interception sorties :D WHOOHOO!!!!

[IfritKajiTora]

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Exalted Blade’s built-in Radial Blind on spin will now cost ½ the Energy of a regular Radial Blind.

YES!!! Finaly nerf to excalibur after all the year. It was a excalb spam, now it wont be : D

Waiting for some trinity blessing changes she is OP TANK adn SELF HEALER almost immortal.

[Unktena]

24 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Hysteria no longer makes Valkyr invulnerable or deals damage to the player when it ends, but instead causes damage taken to be staggered into damage-over-time, at a maximum rate of damage per-second reduced by Duration, and lasting until all damage is dealt or the player dies.

This is probably my favorite comment in this thread. I much prefer the idea of delaying the pain and using her lifesteal to fight through it, over just being immune.

I also second the Idea of just getting rid of the wave for Excalibur. Maybe giving it a 5m or so cone (effected by power range, then reach) and letting it use the shadow debt mods. I can red crit enemies for 50k from 20m with the Mios.

Also like everyone else, mirage's changes were necessary, kind of sad there wasn't a tweak to her 3 (like Ivara/Vauban) to let her switch forms. As opposed to hoping this spot in the middle of the room with god rays shining down is actually a spot where I can deal increased damage.

Also removing self damage would be a good first check on trin since that seems to be and integral part of the build.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Unktena

[Magnulast]

I'm getting sick and tired of these, BLESS NERF INCOMING.

Just now, -dicht.Amducias- said:

Hard mirage nerf and you want to adress blessing too? Do you realize that this effectively kills all LoR and JV in recruiting completely? This gamemode totally relies on this because dying or getting pushed once effectively fails / ruins the mission. This will inevitably and finally turn all raids completely into the failed concept that most players already consider them

LoR? JV? 

Nope, it won't. I'm perfectly fine as is, even if Blind mirage and Bless trinity is removed.

It makes the game better. 

It finally removes two stupid jobs, and frees up for more creative use.

Players like me actually have skill and focus on killing targets and using other abilties rather than just relying on two.

It will teach players that you'd actually need to fight instead of relying on cheap builds to get you out of trouble.

[Armoxa]

I haven't read the entire thread so I don't know if this has been mentioned, but how about for blessing instead of the entire team getting a damage reduction based on the amount highest amount healed, each player gets damage reduction based on how much they themselves were healed. This would mean that frames who have taken the most damage will get the biggest buff while naturally tankier frames that haven't taken as much damage won't get as much damage reduction. Self damage builds won't be a thing anymore since only the trinity would get the 99% damage reduction. I think blessing could still have it's infinite range and instant heal with this change. It would also mean trinity can play a more active role in combat since she won't need to carefully maintain health to properly bless at regular intervals.

Just my 2 cents.

[AutoPhox]

1 hour ago, DeltaPhantom said:

The trouble with EB's blind is that it's way too easy to do accidentally.

At least casting has a dedicated key. Far too often, I've tried doing a spin attack, only to remember that it works differently for Excal while EB is active.

^ this

Making a standard manoeuvre cost energy could really goof up the flow of combat.

Maybe only allow an energy costing blind during channeling EB, and make non channeling EB just a normal slide attack...?

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

1 hour ago, Valsako said:

Too bad, they'll do it whether you want it or not because their die-hard fans will support this even though they don't play Trin. I saw the proof in my own topic about this subject. It'll happen, and actual Trin users like me and you just have to deal with it. Hope you enjoy the 10k credits you'll get from selling her.

Healers always get nerfed. Went through this from WotLK onwards with my main. Even when the WoL stats showed how bad it's gotten, devs were worried it was still too powerful in PvP. -_-

But 99% damage reduction for nearly half a minute and it's spammable, come on, that's not even healing anymore. That's a permanent damage reduction once it's spammable, and makes even the sorties a cakewalk, and with zero drawbacks.

Healers have to have something to heal, not be AFK!!!

[Fifield]

58 minutes ago, AM-Bunny said:

Totally disagree - whatever they do to Blessing, the one thing I hope they maintain is the infinite range.

Agree.  The realism is bad but gameplay should always trump realism.

The 99% damage reduction must go, preferably with another frame (Oberon?) getting 95% capped damage reduction, or as I said earlier...

... Exclude the caster in the damage reduction mechanism [in solo, base it on the caster, maybe still cap it].

She doesn't particularly need the shield restore either.  Depends if they do anything to EV.

[Ziegrif]

I'm going to be cautiously optimistic about these changes.

I do however still think that Valkyr should ditch the self damage and the Invincibility as well.

[Magnulast]

If you want it to be Bless nerfed, don't post a suggestion. I don't want bless to be "nerfed" I want it to be reworked into a better ability, not something to cheese a game.

Bless retains infinite range, regardless of how far you are.

Bless takes into effect of both health, and shields. 75% health is used for maximum damage reduction, 25% shield is used for damage reduction.-Self damage is retained. 

Bless's Damage reduction NOW WORKS DIFFERENTLY.

DEPENDING ON THE DAMAGE DEALT TO ALL FRAMES, IN % VIA THE EFFECTS.

THE DAMAGE REDUCTION WILL BE DIVIDED BY 1-4 DEPENDING ON PLAYERS.(2 PLAYERS COUNT AS 1, HAVING ONE PLAYER GIVES A DAMAGE REDUCTION OF A TOTAL OF 50% MAX)

BLESS WILL RESTORE BOTH SHIELDS AND HEALTH TO THE MAXIMUM, AND WILL PROVIDE OVERSHEILDS DEPENDING ON THE DAMAGE DEALTH TO THE ANY OF THE FRAMES AFTER CAST FOR 2.5 SECONDS.

[TheRandomHunter]

1 minute ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Healers always get nerfed. Went through this from WotLK onwards with my main. Even when the WoL stats showed how bad it's gotten, devs were worried it was still too powerful in PvP. -_-

But 99% damage reduction for nearly half a minute and it's spammable, come on, that's not even healing anymore. That's a permanent damage reduction once it's spammable, and makes even the sorties a cakewalk, and with zero drawbacks.

Healers have to have something to heal, not be AFK!!!

Reactionary healing doesn't work at high levels in Warframe. If you've ever noticed, it's not like people take damage at well timed intervals like in other MMO's raids. One person will make a mistake and suddenly take a large amount of damage, and unless you're staring at your UI waiting for it to happen (when you should be fighting as well), they'll go down and then you CAN'T heal them. It's especially bad in things like sorties, where someone can go down in literally a second with no time to react.

Trin's damage reduction is the only feasible way to heal in this game when health pools are so tiny and enemies can do so much damage.

[_Raiklar_]

please stop reviewing Ash's bladestorm its Good as good as it can be after you added the useless clones and took away its true damage and changed it to slash damage and added the bleed proc. modded right its unstoppable. if your going to do anything. Please get rid of the clones as they were never needed in the first place.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Ookami_Nihonto

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

Thats it? They dont even address the enemy level scaling balance

[FearsomeWarrior]

10 minutes ago, Magnulast said:

I'm getting sick and tired of these, BLESS NERF INCOMING.

LoR? JV? 

Nope, it won't. I'm perfectly fine as is, even if Blind mirage and Bless trinity is removed.

It makes the game better. 

It finally removes two stupid jobs, and frees up for more creative use.

Players like me actually have skill and focus on killing targets and using other abilties rather than just relying on two.

It will teach players that you'd actually need to fight instead of relying on cheap builds to get you out of trouble.

Love it. We can actually play the game? Yes please.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

This is what I was waiting for. Meta crash '16. Looking forward to doing sorties in the future.

[Fifield]

49 minutes ago, CptKornflake said:

It's not right to strip players from playing a game how they want to play

You're saying DE don't have the right to design their own game?

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

Just now, Magnulast said:

If you want it to be Bless nerfed, don't post a suggestion. I don't want bless to be "nerfed" I want it to be reworked into a better ability, not something to cheese a game.

Bless retains infinite range, regardless of how far you are.

Bless takes into effect of both health, and shields. 75% health is used for maximum damage reduction, 25% shield is used for damage reduction.-Self damage is retained. 

Bless's Damage reduction NOW WORKS DIFFERENTLY.

DEPENDING ON THE DAMAGE DEALT TO ALL FRAMES, IN % VIA THE EFFECTS.

THE DAMAGE REDUCTION WILL BE DIVIDED BY 1-4 DEPENDING ON PLAYERS.(2 PLAYERS COUNT AS 1, HAVING ONE PLAYER GIVES A DAMAGE REDUCTION OF A TOTAL OF 50% MAX)

BLESS WILL RESTORE BOTH SHIELDS AND HEALTH TO THE MAXIMUM, AND WILL PROVIDE OVERSHEILDS DEPENDING ON THE DAMAGE DEALTH TO THE ANY OF THE FRAMES AFTER CAST FOR 2.5 SECONDS.

Or, simply make it work like an absorb bubble. Not 99% invulnerability, but starting at 100% and scaling downward per second. That way people in places like Draco can understand death, even. -_-