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Banshee's #4


Webly
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[All the following is about late-game and high level defense, of which DE is likely to add more of]

If I had to say whether or not Banshee's pref-nerf ultimate (Sound Quake) was too strong or not I'd say it was because it made other frames irrelevant in a way that boosting their abilities wouldn't have directly overcome. It was too strong because it had LONG RANGE AND HIGH DAMAGE. The nerf took both from it. It's not short range or very low damage right now, but its range and damage are both low enough that it's utility at the high end is very overshadowed by other frames. Sound Quake does do good CC at all levels, but the range is very limiting for it.
I think Banshee's Sound Quake should be given more range (maybe the pre-nerf range) but also less damage.
The CC (staggers) you can put on mobs in a large area remains useful at all levels, where as damage will eventually not be important on her ult, at its current level it doesn't kill much past wave 20 on Xini.

In addition to making Sound Quake more support oriented, I think it should be upgraded by Continuity instead of Focus.
Instead of having it deal more damage per damage tick with Focus, it will simply do more unupgraded damage ticks with Continuity AND it will stagger mobs within the AoE for a longer duration. This will also synergize with Sonar (arguably Banshee's most useful skill in high-end waves).


tl;dr (Please do read it all though)

-Give Sound Quake old range but less damage, since its damage ALREADY doesn't matter in high level gameplay.

-Have it upgrade with Continuity not Focus for the same effect over a longer time, stunning mobs affected by Sound Quake for a greater time (will synergize with Sonar too).

Edited by Webly
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How about longer range but less damage as it goes out since the waves get weaker outward.

That could potentially work too, obviously everything needs testing to make sure it's balanced (which it certainly isn't at the moment).
 
I just want to make sure there's a check to the increased utility of the skill.
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[All the following is about late-game and high level defense, of which DE is likely to add more of]

If I had to say whether or not Banshee's pref-nerf ultimate (Sound Quake) was too strong or not I'd say it was because it made other frames irrelevant in a way that boosting their abilities wouldn't have directly overcome. It was too strong because it had LONG RANGE AND HIGH DAMAGE. The nerf took both from it. It's not short range or very low damage right now, but its range and damage are both low enough that it's utility at the high end is very overshadowed by other frames. Sound Quake does do good CC at all levels, but the range is very limiting for it.

I think Banshee's Sound Quake should be given more range (maybe the pre-nerf range) but also less damage.

The CC (staggers) you can put on mobs in a large area remains useful at all levels, where as damage will eventually not be important on her ult, at its current level it doesn't kill much past wave 20 on Xini.

In addition to making Sound Quake more support oriented, I think it should be upgraded by Continuity instead of Focus.

Instead of having it deal more damage per damage tick with Focus, it will simply do more unupgraded damage ticks with Continuity AND it will stagger mobs within the AoE for a longer duration. This will also synergize with Sonar (arguably Banshee's most useful skill in high-end waves).

tl;dr (Please do read it all though)

-Give Sound Quake old range but less damage, since its damage ALREADY doesn't matter in high level gameplay.

-Have it upgrade with Continuity not Focus for the same effect over a longer time, stunning mobs affected by Sound Quake for a greater time (will synergize with Sonar too).

As much as I feel Sound Quake can use some love, I'd rather it be done in another fashion that doesn't lock me out of doing anything for 7-8 seconds straight. This would take away the one damage AOE skill Banshee has, and would pigeon hole her into a "channeled" form of Rhino Stomp. I already find Sound Quake tedious to have to spam in high end defense missions as a pseudo-Bastille (which costs less, lasts three times as long, and isn't channeled), so I'd prefer to see more changes made if it truly becomes a form of CC, like removing the channel. I could live with not being another generic AOE god mode button frame, but to lose it and have a weak form of self stunning CC would be kind of disappointing.

I actually made a post with how Sound Quake fails at both damage and CC currently (and a lot more since I rant <_<): https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/54616-banshee-a-synopsis-and-some-recommendations/#entry564736

Edit: I also don't get why Sound Quake is so heavily effected by armor, are they using super ear plugs? I can't imagine sound waves being strong enough to cause an earthquake not dealing the majority of their damage from the waves themselves, and the aftershocks mostly being the CC.

Edited by Verazix
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above

Looking at the how my version and the current version sit compared to Bastille, I would definetly agree with you.  I guess I wonder if Bastile will stay as good as it is though.  Is it a fair skill to measure up to?  So far every new ability that is top has been nerfed, I don't really agree with DE's philosophy on this, but I don't think Bastile will stay something to measure up to.

Or maybe it will.

Either way I see you logic and agree, basically anything to make Sound Quake (and Banshee) more relevant and useful is good.

 

I still think Sound Quake should upgrade through Continuity and not Focus though (or both).

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Looking at the how my version and the current version sit compared to Bastille, I would definetly agree with you.  I guess I wonder if Bastile will stay as good as it is though.  Is it a fair skill to measure up to?  So far every new ability that is top has been nerfed, I don't really agree with DE's philosophy on this, but I don't think Bastile will stay something to measure up to.

Or maybe it will.

Either way I see you logic and agree, basically anything to make Sound Quake (and Banshee) more relevant and useful is good.

 

I still think Sound Quake should upgrade through Continuity and not Focus though (or both).

I see no reason it shouldn't be upgraded by both. It does lower damage than World on Fire and Miasma, both effected by Focus AND Continuity. The odd double standards of the game are awkward at best. Slash Dash has never been changed despite easily being the best first skill (even in comparison to a single Tesla), Radial Blind is still a phenomenal second ability (compare to Rhino Stomp, has invulnerability during animation), Invisibility is still an amazing survivability skill that nearly makes you immortal and can be chained together near infinitely, Overheat was buffed to be better than current Iron Skin, etc.

DE's method of balance is unpredictable and wild, we really can't tell what they'll be doing I guess.

Edited by Verazix
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At max rank SQ does a total of 1050 damage over 7 seconds. That is pretty much on par with other ultimates damage-wise. It also has a stagger effect. This is one of the few ultimates in the game with more than one effect. If there is any change done to the power, it should be how it's damage is reduced by armor.

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At max rank SQ does a total of 1050 damage over 7 seconds. That is pretty much on par with other ultimates damage-wise. It also has a stagger effect. This is one of the few ultimates in the game with more than one effect. If there is any change done to the power, it should be how it's damage is reduced by armor.

Honestly I think it's damage base is fine, the problem is the awkward scaling of Sound Quake. It's the longest channeled ultimate in the game, instead of "one shotting/hitting" entire rooms, you kill them over a period of seven-ish seconds and crowd control them at the same time. You can't increase the duration of the CC, the CC stagger effect doesn't effect bosses, and the damage is effected by armor. It's essentially a mix between Crush and Rhino Stomp, with a higher range to compensate for the long channel (to make sure you don't get gibbed during the channel I wager). Sadly it doesn't serve a purpose as either a great damage ultimate or a good form of CC, as it can easily be replaced in either category, and that is the problem I have with it. In the post I linked earlier I go more in depth about it, and how I think it should be fixed.

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[All the following is about late-game and high level defense, of which DE is likely to add more of]

If I had to say whether or not Banshee's pref-nerf ultimate (Sound Quake) was too strong or not I'd say it was because it made other frames irrelevant in a way that boosting their abilities wouldn't have directly overcome. It was too strong because it had LONG RANGE AND HIGH DAMAGE. The nerf took both from it. It's not short range or very low damage right now, but its range and damage are both low enough that it's utility at the high end is very overshadowed by other frames. Sound Quake does do good CC at all levels, but the range is very limiting for it.

I think Banshee's Sound Quake should be given more range (maybe the pre-nerf range) but also less damage.

The CC (staggers) you can put on mobs in a large area remains useful at all levels, where as damage will eventually not be important on her ult, at its current level it doesn't kill much past wave 20 on Xini.

In addition to making Sound Quake more support oriented, I think it should be upgraded by Continuity instead of Focus.

Instead of having it deal more damage per damage tick with Focus, it will simply do more unupgraded damage ticks with Continuity AND it will stagger mobs within the AoE for a longer duration. This will also synergize with Sonar (arguably Banshee's most useful skill in high-end waves).

tl;dr (Please do read it all though)

-Give Sound Quake old range but less damage, since its damage ALREADY doesn't matter in high level gameplay.

-Have it upgrade with Continuity not Focus for the same effect over a longer time, stunning mobs affected by Sound Quake for a greater time (will synergize with Sonar too).

I have a better idea

 

Give Sound Quake the old range but with half of the old damage, since it will be BALANCED AND WILL NO LONGER NEED A NERF

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 It's the longest channeled ultimate in the game, instead of "one shotting/hitting" entire rooms, you kill them over a period of seven-ish seconds and crowd control them at the same time.

 

I do believe Ash's Bladestorm takes much longer to deal its full damage and it doesn't have any CC.  Only perk is that you are invulnerable while using it.

Edited by Rathnaga
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I do believe Ash's Bladestorm takes much longer to deal its full damage and it doesn't have any CC.  Only perk is that you are invulnerable while using it.

Well Ash's ability isn't exactly channeled. It's more like a gigantic (and poorly done) multi-hit ability that feels really slapped on and awkward. It ignores armor at least? (Though I guess it is a form of self stun)

Though that's neither here nor there, as it holds no bearing on anything stated in this thread.

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