Update 18.13.0: TennoGen, Passives, & Reworks

[mishli]

41 minutes ago, Mernak said:

It is a nice work but Limbo's passive just good and not limboly. Limbo need just the old style: let him use things in the Rift Plane. This is the only way to give him a passive that is limboly. Like Nekros: his passive is so epic good for him, and only for him. E.g. if Volt would get Nekros's passive, everyone just wanna ask u for reasons, and say "why wtf?".

limbo able to interact with stuff on rift plane is simply too strong... he can just ignore everything in a level and they don't want that. personally i'd like to see the augment to limbo 1 also work with 4, would make him really good as a support healer, the passive doesn't make much sense i'll agree, but they should never let him use stuff in the rift again...

[mishli]

am i the only person kinda confused by some of these passives? nyx doesn't want most of her abilities to disarm enemies, ash doesn't need a buff, i think he needs a change so he doesn't make every mob you're trying to shoot invulnerable to everyone except him, no lie, super annoying to play with an ash and not be allowed to hit anything unless he says so

[mishli]

7 minutes ago, Sold0ut said:

Nerfs were well done and necessary. Kudos DE.

i won't lie most of them were needed, i just wish

1. they had nerfed the enemies instead of just hitting the frames, which most people use BECAUSE of the way the enemies scale, now they just made endgame a lot harder with no compensation to the players

2. i just think they need to give trinity some more tweaks/compensation for the change. (IT WAS DEFINITLY NEEDED) but now there's no way to tell who you're actually going to heal when you press 4, and if they're going to nerf her 4, can her 1 actually be worth casting then? also, i think the EV build was much worse than bless, at least bless was tricky for the trinity, ev is literally just spam 2 all day and give everyone almost infinite energy and overshields. at least with bless there was some danger to you lowering yourself to 2 hp, especially if you were actually fighting, that carried a lot of risk

[DarkOvion]

22 minutes ago, mishli said:

limbo able to interact with stuff on rift plane is simply too strong... he can just ignore everything in a level and they don't want that. personally i'd like to see the augment to limbo 1 also work with 4, would make him really good as a support healer, the passive doesn't make much sense i'll agree, but they should never let him use stuff in the rift again...

You mean like.... Loki, Ivara and Valkyr can do anyway?

Edited May 30, 2016 by DarkOvion

[AndrJordh]

DE, if you're going to nerf frames atleast have the guts to say that you are nerfing them instead of saying that you "rework" them. No one buys that bland rewording. Instead of nerfing popular frames, how about making the unpopular ones more useful so that there's more variety in the number of frames people use. Also, why not fix some of the more important issues like the high tier mob leveling. Mirage was never all that popular and with the new patch she's even more unpopular, Nezha is still not worth the effort to get, Trinity is the only decent healer and you nerf her instead of offering an alternate healing frame or buffing Oberon to be less useless, and Volt's and Mag's are just mediocre. Sayrn was a nice rework if not a bit confusing to some players at the beginning, but all the "reworks" this patch are just pointless and make the playerbase angry. The "reworks" miss the fundamental issues and only serve to punish players who've spent alot of formas and time into polishing their favorite frames. 

[Ven_Tira]

On 5/28/2016 at 0:54 AM, DaReaper95 said:

By the time you've cast that blind, you're dead. Period. Excalibur cannot play CC and kill frame on high levels. Before Exalted was released, Excalibur didn't go to high level missions at all unless you were a noob being fed. 

Anything short of a Frost, Rhino, or Valk decked out in armor boosts does not survive long enough in end game for multiple ability casts when visible out in the open.

These are nerfs coming into frames that have made up the pinnacle of high level gameplay, and they aren't even advertised. The mag and volt reworks (Which, ultimately are not very large changes but are enough to peeve me on the volt side) are what is being advertised about. 

Then as if it's a sidenote I also read about huge nerfs to Excal, a mid-rank endgame frame to begin with, Trin, one of the HARDEST to play, and Valkyr, one of the only viable tanks.

Considering that I used excalibur before he even HAD Exalted Blade in the Tactical Mission Phoenix Interception (y'know, the one where everything was lvl 120. And Grineer. and you could only melee.) and I didn't get dropped a single time, even on my S#&$ty toaster of a laptop that can't even maintain 5+ fps on survival missions past the first five minutes, solely because of Blind.Radial Blind comes out extremely fast (especially with Natural Talent), and Excalibur can stay on the move while using it, so don't even give me that crap.

[Sold0ut]

1 hour ago, mishli said:

i won't lie most of them were needed, i just wish

1. they had nerfed the enemies instead of just hitting the frames, which most people use BECAUSE of the way the enemies scale, now they just made endgame a lot harder with no compensation to the players

2. i just think they need to give trinity some more tweaks/compensation for the change. (IT WAS DEFINITLY NEEDED) but now there's no way to tell who you're actually going to heal when you press 4, and if they're going to nerf her 4, can her 1 actually be worth casting then? also, i think the EV build was much worse than bless, at least bless was tricky for the trinity, ev is literally just spam 2 all day and give everyone almost infinite energy and overshields. at least with bless there was some danger to you lowering yourself to 2 hp, especially if you were actually fighting, that carried a lot of risk

I think they'll bring things back up next. There's huge feedback threads for all the nerfed frames up atm, and completely killing cheese only to later buff other elements is definitely fair game if you ask me.

You can tell who you are going to heal with her #4 due to the Affinity Range UI element, one I think they added mostly to help out Trinity in the first place.

And I think the enemies are due to a nerf next, if their third blog is anything to go by. First the initials and the reworks, then the nerfs, then the enemy nerfs.

[Aebara]

Look, DE, I get it. You want to increase synergy between abilities. You want to churn out combos. That's a good idea. Pat yourself on the back for it.

 

You should know something. You aren't good at implementing it. The Saryn rework? That was a good idea. Chain abilities one into another for more effect. There were problems, though. It takes too much time to set a combo up. The additional effects of combos aren't good enough to warrant the extra time, and the enemies will end up being killed by squad members faster than the combos can be executed. But worst of all? The fact that these combos depend on abilities with vastly different stat priorities makes building for those combos impossible. If you dump too much into one stat, other stats suffer, and abilities necessary for that chain become useless. If you go jack of all trades and just buff across the board, your stats aren't going to be good enough for any of her abilities to shine, let alone the combos. This is why, in spite of your good idea, Saryn has simply changed from Spam 4 to Spam 1.

 

You addressed some problems with the idea in the Mag rework. The combos are simpler, easier to set up, and quicker to execute. 3-2-4 or 3-2-1, with minimal fuss about where enemies are at the time or waiting too much for things to spread out. But you made the same, really horrible mistake. Because Mag's abilities all have differing stat priorities, and because of the cost of those abilities, Mag has no dump stats. So again, if you try to build up any one ability, all the rest suffer; and if you try to buff them all, they all underperform.

 

Keep having good ideas, DE. But please, for the love of god, playtest them more. Your ideas are not being implemented well. The gameplay experience is suffering for it. You aren't making frames more varied, or making them any less dependent on a single ability. You're just changing things from sucking in one way to sucking in another.

[AreWeHuman]

On 5/27/2016 at 7:41 PM, DodgingCats said:

A lot of people here don't seem to get the difference between what a warframe was "meant for" and "what it can actually do".

Yeah, it's really a shame the devs don't seem to have a sense of what is actually feasible in their own game.

[DreadWarlock]

On 5/28/2016 at 4:27 PM, TheMagicalSharpie said:

The hypocrisy is strong in this post.  "Warframes aren't supposed to have a skill that trivializes all other abilities in their kits"  "Just like Saryn got better-"  *CoughSporesCough*   She didn't get better, her main nuke just changed from her 4 to her 1, That's all.  I NEVER use any of her other abilities except for maybe her molt when I need to plant spores for a trap or maybe a panic miasma to stun a group of enemies, other then that?  Press Spore to win, all day long.  You're basically using a very strong cheese frame as an example to say that cheese frames need to be changed into the kind of frame Saryn is.  *Cue head scratching*

That's only you then, cause my Saryn's most important skill is her 3, with 1 to spread things wide.  In the end, I end up using all skills. Unlike you, i know that there are 3 possible builds for Saryn where only one of those focus heavily on spores.

Edited May 31, 2016 by DreadWarlock

[DreadWarlock]

4 hours ago, Indelwood said:

Please stop making me rip my hair out! Love you guys, love your work! Hate you touching my Valkyr! 2nd time you have made me want to quit playing this game... Please stop nerfing my Valkyr ... I have spent to much time building her a certain way then you change her making my time wasted (not completely) Last update I could deal with but this...

Please up her some where... this last up date was waaaaayyyy to big of a nerf...

Best Regards,

Indelwood

Valkyr's problem isn't the nerf, she's still a powerhouse. Her real problem is that her Ripline and  her Paralize fail to work properly for her kit, and with the nerf she's become even more boring than before. Ripline has a combo system for you to use it on many enemies, however this skill is supposed to bring enemies to you, while what truly happens is that you toss the enemies to the other far end of the room instead. Paralize's, "paralize" is also problematic because you open enemies for finishers, only to see that it only lasts enough to kill one enemy, it would be far better for it not to open for finishers but to grant you bonus damage to those enemies, instead.

[ZHeart]

5 hours ago, Sold0ut said:

I think they'll bring things back up next. There's huge feedback threads for all the nerfed frames up atm, and completely killing cheese only to later buff other elements is definitely fair game if you ask me.

You can tell who you are going to heal with her #4 due to the Affinity Range UI element, one I think they added mostly to help out Trinity in the first place.

And I think the enemies are due to a nerf next, if their third blog is anything to go by. First the initials and the reworks, then the nerfs, then the enemy nerfs.

umm no you cant tell who your healing just says whos in range do you even play trin the damage reduction i can understand but that drop is huge not sure what they were thinking there but taking my tank trin from me is bull ive never done bless trin as thats to OP for no reason and no fun but the whole range thing makes trin not a very good support anymore and thats all she is she does she dont have attack ability's like all other frames so why nerf her only ability to do anything. also how do you expect me to heal noobs when all they do is run from me now i cant heal them........they will learn you might say well then im not helping anymore noobs till 4 months from now and there rank 15......well thats pretty bull but hey im not gonna waist my time helping others if there gonna take my healing away why help at all? oh right were a community........so said the DE  springing things on your player base is not a very commune thing to do ask us let us vote then how about oh i dont know adding the ability to test it out rather then nuke us all. 

 

TANK not BLESS Trinty here not happy not able to help new players very much ticked off im not one for talking errr typing to players so getting across the dont leave that little range meter you see up top k thanks noobies your the best

 

oh also ........please tell me how you explained that to new joining players how that whole thing works i made a new account a while ago to see what new players go threw because they complained just to see i was appalled at the system of how you explained things to noobies and got lost and confused and why the hell is that so hard and why is it solo your game is based around teaming up at least have some bots help them out come on its so ugly im shocked we get new players at all the amount of times i have had to explain basic things is getting old you need a better system k thanks. ranking up is super confusing for new players its so hard to get them to do it they dont understand anything you need to make a better system maybe oh i dont know like other games show you where to walk to go rank and that robot in the room has startled a many new players with how in your face it gets for the longest time i would not go near it and only just started doing the synthesis targets because he freaks me out so much i dont let ppl that close to me so dont force it on us

Edited May 31, 2016 by ZHeart

[BladesStorm]

U must be kidding about new bless formula, all we can accept range of 50 m but formula have any sense, so maybe in next updates all buffs depends of squad , this means all squad could get iron skin, roar will be affected for mods of all squad? ,u must think about it

[o_MooN_o]

Please add more "WILDLIFE" so My Oberon can be viable or give me a decent passive that fits the game not one faction and 3 planets

 

 

 

[3135828]

9 hours ago, mishli said:

dodging is definitly a thing, yes, but when enemies get to level 100-120+, if you so much as press the reload button, which stops you from sprinting, pratically any frame can die in 1 shot, if any enemy is anywhere withing the room or even the next room? you can die on accident as the missiles do 180 spins in the air and hit you through cover. I have been running endgame content for a very long time, and in my experience, your average player starts struggling at 30, a well built player can generally go until around 70 ish, but after that? unless you're pratically invincible in some way, about 95% of people just give up because the enemy scaling is so rediculously high. The ONLY options at that point are either have frames that scale infinitely with your enemies (like old mag or nyx) or you pratically have to be invincible cuz everything starts to fall off at that point

 

i at least partially agree with you, i do think that the frames that have it too easy have had it way too easy. and that's coming from a trinity player, however i almost never used the 'blessing trinity' build, i would actually (try) to reactively heal... but when no one seems to want to use quick thinking anymore.... it's very very difficult. especially when people start getting 1shot with no defensive mods with level 30-50 enemies. 

as for the concept of 'difficult but strong builds' i am very sad that trinity bomber is going away... it was actually quite complicated/difficult with the amount everyone in your group could screw you up, but it was still my favorite thing in the whole game

Well, can't say that I haven't experienced some "reloading" deaths, but there's always Bullet Jumps, which allow you to dodge without losing your momentum. Also, I have to agree there, auto targeting rockets are the cheapest way to get kills ever as they're pretty hard to shake off, and, at some point, rolling into them is not really an option.

I feel like I have to clarify that my statement never was about enemy scaling being fine as is, all I was saying is that it's not a valid excuse to start "cheesing" using said frames. They were a way to avoid challenge that higher leveled enemies should, in fact, impose, and their use was never 100% required to get through the mission, but I do understand that they are a way to counteract enemy scaling. DE probably should have holded out on those fixes before they have done what they wanted to do with Damage 3.0, and they may still reverse them until then, but it had to be done at some point anyway.

[3135828]

1 hour ago, BladesStorm said:

U must be kidding about new bless formula, all we can accept range of 50 m but formula have any sense, so maybe in next updates all buffs depends of squad , this means all squad could get iron skin, roar will be affected for mods of all squad? ,u must think about it

Blessing affected everybody even though getting it's maximum potential was a concious effort of only one member. Roar is nowhere as powerful as the Blessing used to be after some minmaxing. I mean, +149,5% damage for a minute is nothing compared to 99% damage mitigation for 30 seconds.

[Sold0ut]

2 hours ago, ZHeart said:

umm no you cant tell who your healing just says whos in range do you even play trin the damage reduction i can understand but that drop is huge not sure what they were thinking there but taking my tank trin from me is bull ive never done bless trin as thats to OP for no reason and no fun but the whole range thing makes trin not a very good support anymore and thats all she is she does she dont have attack ability's like all other frames so why nerf her only ability to do anything. also how do you expect me to heal noobs when all they do is run from me now i cant heal them........they will learn you might say well then im not helping anymore noobs till 4 months from now and there rank 15......well thats pretty bull but hey im not gonna waist my time helping others if there gonna take my healing away why help at all? oh right were a community........so said the DE  springing things on your player base is not a very commune thing to do ask us let us vote then how about oh i dont know adding the ability to test it out rather then nuke us all. 

 

TANK not BLESS Trinty here not happy not able to help new players very much ticked off im not one for talking errr typing to players so getting across the dont leave that little range meter you see up top k thanks noobies your the best

 

oh also ........please tell me how you explained that to new joining players how that whole thing works i made a new account a while ago to see what new players go threw because they complained just to see i was appalled at the system of how you explained things to noobies and got lost and confused and why the hell is that so hard and why is it solo your game is based around teaming up at least have some bots help them out come on its so ugly im shocked we get new players at all the amount of times i have had to explain basic things is getting old you need a better system k thanks. ranking up is super confusing for new players its so hard to get them to do it they dont understand anything you need to make a better system maybe oh i dont know like other games show you where to walk to go rank and that robot in the room has startled a many new players with how in your face it gets for the longest time i would not go near it and only just started doing the synthesis targets because he freaks me out so much i dont let ppl that close to me so dont force it on us

Holy S#&$ learn what punctuation is.

And no, your solo tank trin was pretty much the one thing that was NOT affected so your rant does not even make sense.

[TheMagicalSharpie]

9 hours ago, DreadWarlock said:

That's only you then, cause my Saryn's most important skill is her 3, with 1 to spread things wide.  In the end, I end up using all skills. Unlike you, i know that there are 3 possible builds for Saryn where only one of those focus heavily on spores.

Except you don't NEED your 3 skill to spread spores wide,  I've got three different spore builds (would you figure that?)  And each of them are built for a different purpose,  and they all use either the Ignis or an explosive weapon and they spread the spores absolutely everywhere,  and I can keep spores going for minutes at a time absolutely murdering everything under lvl90, sure, the damage falls off but the Viral proc is straight up cutting enemy health in half, it's a percentage thing rather than straight damage which is why it's so powerful and why mags polarize used to be so powerful, because it scaled regardless of how powerful the enemies were.

 

As for the two other builds?  What?  Toxic lash Saryn?  As I said you don't need that to spread her spores and as I've said before in this thread getting into melee range at extremely high levels is suicide, it's the stupidest thing you can do unless you have absurd amounts of health/armor, are completely invulnerable or have some way to lock enemies down.  The problem with the latter and in mirage and excaliburs case is that they can no longer stun reliably or for exceptionally long periods of time so getting into range where you cant feasibly dodge without taking a 1hko is absurd.

 

Molt Saryn?  Even with her augment for the ability its still fairly rubbish,  Loki can do the same thing without having to constantly move to the spot  where you have to refresh the ability, sure you can spore the thing but it's not any better than just spreading the spores yourself, and the build for miasma and spores is basically identical, as one empowers the other.

 

Her spore build is by far her most useful since you can build it for distance if you just want the viral proc or damage if you want to put the hurt on a bunch of enemies in medium area,  it is her definitive build and the build most people go for in end game missions.

[Mernak]

12 hours ago, DarkOvion said:

You mean like.... Loki, Ivara and Valkyr can do anyway?

That is the point.

[GAZMANFOREVER]

You forgot to update Blind Rage!!!

[DreadWarlock]

3 hours ago, TheMagicalSharpie said:

Except you don't NEED your 3 skill to spread spores wide,  I've got three different spore builds (would you figure that?)  And each of them are built for a different purpose,  and they all use either the Ignis or an explosive weapon and they spread the spores absolutely everywhere,  and I can keep spores going for minutes at a time absolutely murdering everything under lvl90, sure, the damage falls off but the Viral proc is straight up cutting enemy health in half, it's a percentage thing rather than straight damage which is why it's so powerful and why mags polarize used to be so powerful, because it scaled regardless of how powerful the enemies were.

 

As for the two other builds?  What?  Toxic lash Saryn?  As I said you don't need that to spread her spores and as I've said before in this thread getting into melee range at extremely high levels is suicide, it's the stupidest thing you can do unless you have absurd amounts of health/armor, are completely invulnerable or have some way to lock enemies down.  The problem with the latter and in mirage and excaliburs case is that they can no longer stun reliably or for exceptionally long periods of time so getting into range where you cant feasibly dodge without taking a 1hko is absurd.

 

Molt Saryn?  Even with her augment for the ability its still fairly rubbish,  Loki can do the same thing without having to constantly move to the spot  where you have to refresh the ability, sure you can spore the thing but it's not any better than just spreading the spores yourself, and the build for miasma and spores is basically identical, as one empowers the other.

 

Her spore build is by far her most useful since you can build it for distance if you just want the viral proc or damage if you want to put the hurt on a bunch of enemies in medium area,  it is her definitive build and the build most people go for in end game missions.

You're focusing too much on spores when Toxic lash build makes your spores cause much more damage than a simple ranged spore build. Toxic Lash will spread the damage caused by the weapon to all enemie around, so if you bring a Crit Melee, you'll cause absurd damage to all enemies near the affected enemy. Just because YOU don't need Toxic Lash doesn't, mean that it's useless.

As for mirage and excalibur, Excalibur's Radial blind will blind enemies for a long enough period of time, you wont see any serious Excalibur player complaining about the nerfs, only the cheesy press 4 to win. Mirage has the ultimate multishot, if you aren't using you weapons to do their job then you're doing it wrong, her blind still works, but now it  only works agains "her" enemies, instead of affecting the entire galaxy like before.

Molt Saryn is good enough If you use a melee build to spread Toxic Lash through spores, Spores with Toxic lash will make Miasma even stronger than a simple spores build.

People forget that Saryn is a melee warframe now, she's supposed to go melee otherwise you won't get full damage from Miasma.

Her Spore build is not the most useful, is only the safest. A Proper melee Build will get her overall ability damage even higher, spores will begin scaling to higher level enemies as well, as it's damage will scale with the combo meter of a Toxic Lash affected melee. Problem lies beyond level 90, where some enemies will start getting more powerful than your Life mods can handle. 

Edited May 31, 2016 by DreadWarlock

[vinx909]

16 hours ago, mishli said:

am i the only person kinda confused by some of these passives? nyx doesn't want most of her abilities to disarm enemies, ash doesn't need a buff, i think he needs a change so he doesn't make every mob you're trying to shoot invulnerable to everyone except him, no lie, super annoying to play with an ash and not be allowed to hit anything unless he says so

every nyx player so far has complained about her passive. it is just a nerf to any main nyx player. it also needs a change to something that doesn't make her more like loki (if we want to disarm we pick loki, if we want to kill them with their friend we pick nyx) and something that is nyx like.

-affected enemies take more damage and take even more damage from "friends".
-all enemies in a radius are stunned when nyx shields go down.

something nyxish.

[DreadWarlock]

6 minutes ago, vinx909 said:

every nyx player so far has complained about her passive. it is just a nerf to any main nyx player. it also needs a change to something that doesn't make her more like loki (if we want to disarm we pick loki, if we want to kill them with their friend we pick nyx) and something that is nyx like.

-affected enemies take more damage and take even more damage from "friends".
-all enemies in a radius are stunned when nyx shields go down.

something nyxish.

i'd prefer if her mind powers had a chance to shut down the minds of enemies, leaving some enemies in a trance and making them more vulnerable to damage, either from friendly fire or from Nyx.

Edited May 31, 2016 by DreadWarlock

[vinx909]

5 minutes ago, DreadWarlock said:

i'd prefer if her mind powers had a chance to shut down the minds of enemies, leaving some enemies in a trance and making them more vulnerable to damage, either from friendly fire or from Nyx.

that could kind of work, but it would still damage the damage she can do with something like chaos.
it also isn't really a pasive, it is a buff to all powers. but you still need to use your powers to get any benefit.

[proxyvirus]

1 hour ago, DreadWarlock said:

i'd prefer if her mind powers had a chance to shut down the minds of enemies, leaving some enemies in a trance and making them more vulnerable to damage, either from friendly fire or from Nyx.

this wouldent work, as seeing how some of the frames have been reworked. DE does not like us doing More dmg. they want us to do much less dmg and have the enemys do alot more. capping us, and lowering out stuff. i dont know why, but thats what it feels like now.