Update 18.13.0: TennoGen, Passives, & Reworks

[DarkOvion]

5 hours ago, Mernak said:

That is the point.

So what... Loki / Ivara / Valkyr should be locked out of consoles and loot while invun / invis too?

Tenno in the Rift being able to use consoles isn't exactly unreasonable.

[mishli]

9 hours ago, 3135828 said:

Well, can't say that I haven't experienced some "reloading" deaths, but there's always Bullet Jumps, which allow you to dodge without losing your momentum. Also, I have to agree there, auto targeting rockets are the cheapest way to get kills ever as they're pretty hard to shake off, and, at some point, rolling into them is not really an option.

I feel like I have to clarify that my statement never was about enemy scaling being fine as is, all I was saying is that it's not a valid excuse to start "cheesing" using said frames. They were a way to avoid challenge that higher leveled enemies should, in fact, impose, and their use was never 100% required to get through the mission, but I do understand that they are a way to counteract enemy scaling. DE probably should have holded out on those fixes before they have done what they wanted to do with Damage 3.0, and they may still reverse them until then, but it had to be done at some point anyway.

that's my biggest thing, if they're gonna nerf some of the frames... fine, but nerf the enemies along with them, and i do gotta disagree... when the enemies break 120-140 range... you have to have some method of cheese otherwise you simply can never stop, ever if you ever stop you're already dead. you simply can't keep up that much movement AND pick off priority targets like an ancient hiding around the corner without some way to genuinely ensure they can't 1shot you. (most of my experience comes from 90+ minute T4S. below level 100, generally you never really need cheese, it's helpful, but not needed. above that? that's when the enemies just get rediculous

[mishli]

35 minutes ago, DarkOvion said:

So what... Loki / Ivara / Valkyr should be locked out of consoles and loot while invun / invis too?

Tenno in the Rift being able to use consoles isn't exactly unreasonable.

the big thing is, you pay nothing to be in the rift, you're literally invulnerable, regen energy, and can completely bypass lasers, none of the rest can do that. the primary reason they had to make limbo unable to access consoles was because they could literally do any spy mission for free, at least loki has to work for it to dodge lasers in many of the areas, limbo doesn't set them off and if they'd made him set off the lasers, the limbo ability would literally have been just a weird form of invis that agroed enemies

[mishli]

17 hours ago, Sold0ut said:

I think they'll bring things back up next. There's huge feedback threads for all the nerfed frames up atm, and completely killing cheese only to later buff other elements is definitely fair game if you ask me.

You can tell who you are going to heal with her #4 due to the Affinity Range UI element, one I think they added mostly to help out Trinity in the first place.

And I think the enemies are due to a nerf next, if their third blog is anything to go by. First the initials and the reworks, then the nerfs, then the enemy nerfs.

the big thing is, if you're going to do it in stages, nerf the enemies FIRST, so players have the chance at trying out other frames, letting the cheese go to the wayside because it's not needed. don't just gut half the high tier frames and make every bit of endgame content a pain until you change something about the enemies. i'm glad the enemies are getting tweaks too, but why make it worse before you make it better? wouldn't it make much more sense to make it better before making it worse? it's not really fair to have the game calibrated for us to require cheese, and then nerfing the frames before you nerf the reason we needed it.

it also makes the nerfs seem much WORSE than they are. i won't even lie, trinity blessing did need nerfs, but now it feels absolutely unplayable because the game is calibrated to require 99% dr quickly. if they made the enemies weaker first, THEN nerfed blessing to suite the changes in the enemies, it would feel much more fair, because then the 99% dr wouldn't be as needed. (and i'm referring to stupid high level stuff like 120+, not level 60 sortie)

sorry if i'm repeating myself, i'm a little tired and don't feel like i've gotten my point accross properly, but what i'm basically trying to say is. if you're going to do changes in stages, do the cause before the effect. the cause of players using cheese is because of the mobs, so if you want to fix it, change the mobs, which are the cause of the issue, before you change how the players respond to it

second, you CAN"T tell who you are healing, you can only tell how many people are in range. if i see "1" person in range, but 2 people on my team are low, i'm gonna press 4, and yet i could very likely waste my heal because the only person in range was the 1 guy at full hp.

[DreadWarlock]

14 minutes ago, mishli said:

that's my biggest thing, if they're gonna nerf some of the frames... fine, but nerf the enemies along with them, and i do gotta disagree... when the enemies break 120-140 range... you have to have some method of cheese otherwise you simply can never stop, ever if you ever stop you're already dead. you simply can't keep up that much movement AND pick off priority targets like an ancient hiding around the corner without some way to genuinely ensure they can't 1shot you. (most of my experience comes from 90+ minute T4S. below level 100, generally you never really need cheese, it's helpful, but not needed. above that? that's when the enemies just get rediculous

I agree, but anything above 150 and I'll have to say, you knew the risks when you decided to stay that long in an Endless.

[mishli]

On 5/29/2016 at 9:14 PM, hryelle said:

I agree that bless needed a nerf to an extent, and some form range cap is a good idea. It doesn't make sense that everyone no matter where they are on the map benefits from the full heal. That being said, bless trins were really only used in raids, sortie assassinations (but many debuffs made a cheese bless trin with self harm impractical), and a few other missions. The current 50 m range is too low for many maps and mission types. Thus, I think bless should be scaleable with range mods and have a base range of 50 m or 25 m, but go back to the old formula. Alternatively, bless should have a hard cap at 75% damage reduction (or some other number) and is multiplicative with trinity only if link is already active. This would make modding for blessing more challenging and less op in practice as now all power attributes need to be taken into account. Another option would be to rework well of life so it is actually useable (maybe make it like ev). The current change essentially makes trinity an energy wench, or, solo play only with link. Pigeon holeing is something that I think the devs would want to avoid based on recent updates and reworks.

this is actually pretty on point, i would honestly prefer range not scale with mods, but maybe start a bit bigger, like 75, my biggest issue is, i personally think the EV trinity build is more toxic than bless, because you can still screw up the bless play and get yourself/other people killed unless you just hide in a corner the whole game. instead they are basically ENCOURAGING ev trinity which is literally "stand over there and mash 2 until we're done with you and you'll be kicked immediately if i'm ever not at full energy and overshields"

going bless trinity + penta to bomb everything was my favorite thing to do. actually took some amount of skill to balance your uptime, blessing and link timers, because if you were linked to anything, you couldn't get a full power bless

[LadyFuzztail]

On 5/28/2016 at 7:58 PM, Nomen_Nescio said:

Ahaha, "excels". With that line of sight blind that can't blind an enemy if it's hiding behind a crate 2 meters in front of you.

It shouldn't.

Ever heard of proper positioning when executing abilities? 

[Papa.Colt]

While i don't want to agree either, DE is fairly absolved of all those awful nerfs. This is afterall an awesome game with full access to everything. Though still, there must be attractive, not only from the accessibility perspective, but also by the gameplay. Sure, many games are full access, mostly boring games where you can't do much, but i've never seen one such as Warframe, a truly awesome game where you can achieve and acquire anything without giving a single cent, that's why the game is supported out of most players' respect for that. Let's not forget the fact that this is a Free-to-Play game and anyone can join the community, but all those privileges granted by DE to the players don't need to be balanced by nerfing most of what's good in the game and thus slowly killing the game experience. Besides, most nerfs were based on Warframes' "OP-ness" which might I add have a lot of hard-to-get (maybe unique) mods behind them and that is the reason why they are so powerful. The only things that these nerfs will do is to make the game harder and harder for newcommers mostly (and slowly for us advanced players too), until we reach a point where eventually new players will quit the game prematurely because it's too damn hard to get to a decent level where they can manage themselves in this game properly. That's all I've got to say, i know this post won't be seen by many, much less by the DE staff but this is all i'm asking for any future patches: Try actually considering this community's advice for a change. Work with the community, not against it.

[Blue_Gardevoir]

Oberon's passive isn't good... Which fit with the worst frame... He's only good on earth and jupiter! Unless kevat and drakk are, also, affected by his passive. Then he's ok in a couple more mission...

[hryelle]

12 hours ago, mishli said:

this is actually pretty on point, i would honestly prefer range not scale with mods, but maybe start a bit bigger, like 75, my biggest issue is, i personally think the EV trinity build is more toxic than bless, because you can still screw up the bless play and get yourself/other people killed unless you just hide in a corner the whole game. instead they are basically ENCOURAGING ev trinity which is literally "stand over there and mash 2 until we're done with you and you'll be kicked immediately if i'm ever not at full energy and overshields"

going bless trinity + penta to bomb everything was my favorite thing to do. actually took some amount of skill to balance your uptime, blessing and link timers, because if you were linked to anything, you couldn't get a full power bless

I know right. A bigger base range would also be good! For ev though, you don't have to mash 2. I tend to use lower power strength with natural talent and use ev as a form of cc to stun an enemy then kill it with a good weapon, as now the target is not moving. The bonus shield from doing this regularly also benefits the squad. You really only need max strength in draco and raids : +25% is enough for most missions to get decent ev return and a full heal quick blessing. I really wish the self damage mechanic for blessing was still needed, it was a lot of fun and now I can't use kestrel anymore :(

[Ryuketsu.]

On 5/28/2016 at 11:08 AM, ShogunGunshow said:

Of course if there was a poll people would be overwhelmingly against it. Duh. People don't like having their overpowered toys taken away. Game development is not a democratic process, however, and while DE is encouraged to keep the 'feel' of popular frames the same, they are not beholden to it.

DE is obviously looking to continue nerfing the 'press and win' abilities of the game. I think this is fine, SO LONG AS they address enemy scaling. 

Really,not a democratic process huh?Well it's tough to run a country with no tax payers.

[JalakBali]

My 2 cents of these changes after testing in group play:

 

1. Excalibur nerf is not too bad. The range nerf shouldn't affect people except those playing him like a stationary turret behind an object. HOWEVER! The Radial Blind energy cost is TERRIBLE. It has become a pitfall for newbies who thought it's actually useful and became an energy dump with little benefit. To make the RB Junior useful at all you have to build your Excalibur around this ability, on which you'd be better off using Radial Blind OG, especially since bumping Range would lower Exalted Blade's effectiveness (due to loss of a mod slot). So RB Junior is more detrimental than useful and vets would just avoid using it, making it pointless, while if you add its range, it would overshadow RBlind OG. There 2 possible solutions: one, make RB Junior *ignores* line of sight. Meaning, it would blind everyone within its short range instead of not affecting the guy who at the last micro-second ducked behind his buddy. Then the cost would be justifiable. Or two, add another component to RB Junior: something like Knock Down. Not just blinded but enemies within range would be knocked down and open to ground Finisher. Again, adding more bang for the energy cost buck.

 

2. Mag rework has been.... weird. But maybe because I'm not used to it yet. So far she doesn't seem to be totally useless but Magnetize, in theory, could be a power boost. The only problem is the lackluster Crush. It's still terrible to use due to animation time and the damage is crap. Solution: make Crush an ability that amplifies the damage by how many enemies it affected. At first you lift the enemies, crushing them 3 times, then the "clap" is the bonus by adding all the damage you inflicted as a radial (not just to enemies lifted), so based on the number of enemies you managed to lift. For instance, you lifted 3 enemies, dealing damage to them, then the final clap is extra damage which has the value of all the damages you've done combined. Meaning the last clap would have a LOT of damage if you managed to snag and damaged a lot of enemies in Crush. This would make positioning Mag when using Crush is more crucial.

 

3. Blessing nerf is terrible. And I don't mean terrible in the numbers but it has made Blessing practically useless for teams except as a full heal. The damage resist is too low to bother and trying to keep track of everybody's health is too tedious. Solution: make the damage resist work PER member. Meaning, when you're at low health and Trin popped a Blessing, you get the huge damage resist while the guy with full health get nothing. Then add a Revive component to it. If Blessing is popped when someone is down, then reviving them would be instant (like the Vazarin bonus passive) or they'd get instantly revived if they're in the process of being revived. THEN add a shield and health regen component to it so those with full health when Blessing is popped still get something even though no damage resist. It's an ult power, It should add benefits to the team more than a simple heal and a damage resit that will never have high value unless your team is all dying AT THE SAME TIME.

 

4. Volt rework as been hit and miss. Shield is good. Speed is terrible as in I can barely see where the speed boost is dropped. If all the team is running fast and Volt popped Speed, there's no way we can see where the thing is dropped since we're already going fast. All we'd see is Volt running past us and us going "awww I missed the speed boost drop". It's become tedious just to keep an eye if Volt is boosting speed if you wanted it that it's become pretty much a solo power. Why not just make it opt out by rolling like in Banish? Next, Discharge is underwhelming. The damage is too low, too slow. It needs more damage or at least more utility. Maybe by making Discharge pulse 4 times (at max rank)? Like, the spot where Volt first started the Discharge, it would continue to pulse 3 more times every 2 seconds, meaning more enemies might get hit as they enter the radius. Meaning the area becomes an electrified zone for 8 seconds.

[Tyss]

Felt like I've thrown money on the trash for buying mag cosmetics... RIP Mag

[3135828]

14 hours ago, mishli said:

that's my biggest thing, if they're gonna nerf some of the frames... fine, but nerf the enemies along with them, and i do gotta disagree... when the enemies break 120-140 range... you have to have some method of cheese otherwise you simply can never stop, ever if you ever stop you're already dead. you simply can't keep up that much movement AND pick off priority targets like an ancient hiding around the corner without some way to genuinely ensure they can't 1shot you. (most of my experience comes from 90+ minute T4S. below level 100, generally you never really need cheese, it's helpful, but not needed. above that? that's when the enemies just get rediculous

Can I just put something in here? This is a video that shows a guy solo Phoenix Interception Escalation, which is a level 100-150, 8 rounds Interception, with active requirements being having Conclave of less than 400 and using only a heavy blade type melee. That was using Loki. Not Ash, not Mirage, not Valkyr... Loki. Hell, if I am to tell any stories here, I nearly gotten through it with a team of Oberon, Limbo, Nova and Ash (?), with me being Oberon because he was pretty much the only CC I've had at a time. We would get through it if one enemy didn't bug out and fall under the map. I've even tried soloing it with badly built Invisibility Ash (I really had some wrong ideas about the concept of a good frame), but that didn't come through because enemies captured towers faster than I could. Yeah, I've kinda cheesed through it with Bladestorm spam with a random party in the end, but the point is: it was possible then. It's even more possible now. Hell, if Volt had his current kit back then, maybe I wouldn't even need to use Ash.

[Mernak]

19 hours ago, mishli said:

the big thing is, you pay nothing to be in the rift, you're literally invulnerable, regen energy, and can completely bypass lasers, none of the rest can do that. the primary reason they had to make limbo unable to access consoles was because they could literally do any spy mission for free, at least loki has to work for it to dodge lasers in many of the areas, limbo doesn't set them off and if they'd made him set off the lasers, the limbo ability would literally have been just a weird form of invis that agroed enemies

Nope, then you do not know Limbo. The corpus cameras and the grineer detectors can see Limbo in the rift too... So what Loki need to avoid, Limbo don't, and what Limbo can avoid, Loki do not. But (the point is coming) Loki can do anything with his invisiblity, but Limbo don't.

[Mernak]

19 hours ago, DarkOvion said:

So what... Loki / Ivara / Valkyr should be locked out of consoles and loot while invun / invis too?

Tenno in the Rift being able to use consoles isn't exactly unreasonable.

The problem is with the logic. There is no logic. I do not wanna all tenno being able to use consoles, only Limbo. Like Loki/Ivara/Valkyr. :)

[thefiercekiller]

On 5/27/2016 at 4:36 PM, tripletriple said:

Was there a reason to nerf Trinity's heal range? Such a baseless decision. This is the 100th time you've nerfed trinity. 

Also thanks for nerfing valkyr but doing nothing about the fact that her other 3 abilities are total garbage. 

she could heal everyone from across the map. basically if you had a trin who paid attention to your health noone would die.

[thefiercekiller]

On 5/27/2016 at 4:37 PM, Punchedface said:

NOOOOOOOOOO

relax the sheev hardly does any damage

[Eivy]

Wellll, I was gonna come back, but reading these patch notes I will stay on my break a bit longer S:

 

[Vastia]

DE, You do nothing for improving Oberon!, it's passive it's the most situational and useless of all passives.