Volt Rework Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[Ventura_Highway]

7 hours ago, Cytobel said:

That plus Capacitance makes my generalist build VERY tough to kill (aside from Toxin damage)

Hello. I am the other Capacitance Volt in existence. It's nice to meet you. I also routinely run sorties with Volt very smoothly.

 

10 hours ago, Cytobel said:

BALANCED

I feel like when you get ready to dump stats like range or duration or whatever, you're specializing your Warframe's build, and I believe that if ability mod cards were still in the game, you'd probably gouge out one or two of the other ability mod cards because well, you made them useless by tanking one of the stats related to them.

I mean, when someone goes like "Wow, I tanked range on my Warframe and now this ability is useless!" I tend to think that that's an intended consequence. Your Warframe came with a relatively general kit, you decided to specialize based on a specific situation, perhaps rightly so, but yeah, that comes with sacrifices.

7 hours ago, Cytobel said:

I often wonder how good my Volt build really is, and how much of it is about my Rivens.

I have a general policy of not arguing with results. If you are so inclined, I might suggest that you set up some means of comparing your build with another one, perhaps a Speed-specialized one. Perhaps you could assemble a group of eight people, with two Volts organized into two groups with relatively similar compositions and put them into the same sortie or tier 4 void mission and record, compare, and analyze results, with the primary variability point being the build of the Volts in each group.

7 hours ago, Cytobel said:

I wonder if a toggle Speed would work better

Toggling may make things weird with Speed. It's supposed to be a party buff, if you ask me.

I don't really care about all the people complaining about how "Speed makes it harder for me to play the game." Will we bring up every single little way they've inconvenienced me? Every time someone sets up an enemy for finishers like an Inaros or Equinox and I end up meleeing them, it takes slightly longer to kill them than it would have. I don't benefit from the finisher effect at all, I didn't need the CC either, and I get nothing from it. It is inconvenient and bothers me.

I need statuses to make Condition Overload work! Well, too bad, I have a Gara and Frost in my cell that stop those statuses from proccing when they freeze enemies, iirc. That's inconvenient!

I want to headshot this Bombard so that I can move on and not worry about getting Ogris'd to death. Too bad there's a Firequake Ember who knocked him over and got rid of the angle I was going to use. How sad.

So, yeah there are a thousand and one ways you can bother someone else trying to help with abilities. I really do not care Speed is among those, but it is ideally supposed to be a party buff. I haven't even brought up Limbo. I think I can express one way every frame can potentially annoy me. We can even discuss how my Carrier has managed to bother me, that glutton. It is a good thing I can get rid of the Carrier, and actually maybe get rid of the possibility of encountering those other players by going from Public, to Friend Only, or to Invite Only, or to Solo.

The issue with that and making it toggle, I think, is that it interferes a little bit with that nature as a party buff. Are they only supposed to go fast when they are near you? If they are that interferes with it's intention to enhance maneuvering, and possibly makes Speed even more disruptive to those near Volt. FAST. slow... FAST. slow... that's what'll happen if you go in and out of Volt's Speed range, and with everyone darting all over the place in Warframe, that's probably going to happen a lot. So, it makes buff application to teammates somewhat awkward. I mean, I guess you could rapidly toggle it on and off if someone comes near you that's going to use it, but if that happens then you would have got what you wanted to do, give someone the blessing of Speed, faster if it was just a cast buff.

So, ultimately I think it is for simplicity's sake that it is not a toggle. More duration is not a bad thing though, but I had a buff in mind to Speed that worked along with it's spammable nature.

EDIT: One thing that could possibly be done is that Volt could have it be of infinite duration while toggled on to himself, but allow teammates who go close by to receive the buff for some period of time, perhaps infinitely while it is toggled like Oberon's renewal (?). However, that would exacerbate the issue of people not wanting Speed, and make accidentally applying it on those people even more likely. As a toggle though, it would drain energy while it was active, and disable energy regen, but perhaps this could be done away with. Also, if it did not need to be constantly triggered for Volt and for everyone, people that opted out of Speed would likely find their choice to be more permanent. This somewhat interferes with my idea of making Speed more useful.

I'm not a fan of having it be a toggle but I would argue the above edit presents a promising change to it, if it were, but it interferes with my idea of making Volt have a more relevant form of Shielding.

EDIT2: Also I will note I do acknowledge that having some way to break out of Speed is somewhat necessary, if there is, like I recall, people who encounter physical nausea because of it.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Ventura_Highway

[Viegraf]

That tweet posted earlier confuses me so much. If Volt is not CC then why does he have so much access to CC?

• Shock is a guaranteed electricity proc, which is a stun. 
• Shocking Speed is a guaranteed electricity proc, which is a stun.
• Overload explicitly stuns enemies in a potentially huge area (for a minimum of 4 seconds now, but I've had it last for ~11 seconds pre-patch in heiracon).
• IIRC shocked shields can also electricity proc, as can charged projectiles.

Speed is too short for viable buffing, and shock trooper is painful to apply and upkeep (it gets wiped upon using transference and needs to be cast on each ally individually), so volt can have a lot of trouble supporting effectively outside of capacitance (which I think now is also delayed by 4 seconds, but I haven't tested). Shock's damage is pitiful, and overload has a damage cap, so he's not a direct damage frame. He can defend well enough with (static) shields, but guess what? Defense-oriented frames have CC! Lots of it!

[Ventura_Highway]

1 hour ago, Viegraf said:

If Volt is not CC then why does he have so much access to CC?

Magnitude I think.

One second stuns from electric proc versus like, fifteen or twenty or so via Discharge if it had no cap.

EDIT: Discharge is also widespread.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Ventura_Highway

[Cytobel]

@Ventura_Highway:  The remark about "someone saw big numbers" was directed at DE.  Recall, they've SPECIFICALLY stated they'd be "closely monitoring the situation for exploitative behavior".  This is why I keep saying they're out of touch.  Well, that, and the way they're avoiding fixing negative interactions between Volt's abilities and unwilling to address his conflicting build requirements.

I've taken the position in the past that Speed has done more harm to Volt than help because players had nothing else to build for so long.  Before Capacitance there were no potential alternative builds that brought enough to the table for us to even consider.  I remember Overload's cast losing animation immortality.  At that time, Speed was the only thing Volt had to rely on (Shock was TERRIBLE and ES only worked properly sometimes).

The builds for Speed and Discharge are WILDLY different, and I notice that people (even many people who are reasonably intelligent) have difficulty understanding just how many ways the damage cap screws Discharge.  Some people argue that building more than 160% Range is beneficial to Discharge, forgetting that targets gain longer arc coil discharge range (they zap other things further away based on range).  That, combined with the fact that the damage cap DROPS with power strength means that I see people gaining MINIMAL benefit from range, a few seconds of CC at best.

This leaves us with a "butter zone" for Range, a REQUIREMENT for high Effeciency or some fom of Rage build (because I refuse to spend hundreds of dollars in plat on Arcane Energize just to let RNGesus bless me with the ability to continue casting when He sees fit), a need for 170+% Strength for just one ability (Speed), and a working Electric Shield (as long as you don't carry it).  Oh, and if I wasn't running 2 FULL STACKS of Arcane Barrier, I doubt I'd have enough shields to stop more than a couple hits at best.

King for a Day, I'd focus on creating more positives in Volt's kit than negatives.  Make Shock work with each other ability as this "keystone" they spoke of, make Speed something you don't have to break your other abilities to use effectively, cut some of Riot Shield's restrictions and penalties so that it becomes a skill-based damage stop, and rebuild Discharge to let it CC and do respectable damage (because, ya know, we already have other 'Frames that can do MUCH MORE than that with TOGGLED ultimates).  I'd work in a ball lightning interaction between Shock and Speed, because BALL LIGHTNING.  Volt's sprint speed would jump up, possibly as high as Loki's, since Volt will NEVER be the fastest 'Frame so long as Nova has Wormhole.  Basic Volt would gain a touch of armor and a larger energy pool so that starting players could actually use all his abilities effectively without ridiculous mod requirements.

TL;DR:  I want SYNERGY, rather than anti-synergy; I want a 'Frame who's abilities work without requiring tons of mods to do anything, but rewards you for modding, and I want you to be able to bring more to the cell than you expend by taking a slot that could've just been a Mesa or Chroma or Ember instead.

[Cytobel]

Here's a simple (sounding) challenge:  the 8 Base (8 basic mods) build for 'Frames.  [EDIT: 8 Base should NEVER include any Nightmare, Corrupted, Event, or Primed Mods, as it's meant to represent something you can achieve with relatively little play time or mod drop luck.]

Put Vitality, Redirection (or Gladiator Vigor, only for Inaros or Nidus), Steel Fiber, Flow, Continuity, Intensify, Streamline, and Stretch on a 'Frame.  All mods must be at rank 5, no more and no less.  No other mods are allowed, and no Exilus mods either (this could be hard for some 'Frames, but give it a shot).

Now, play this 'Frame.  Test it out in every mission type, against each enemy faction.  See where it does or does not work.  Then grade it on the basis of your findings.

'Frames that pass this test with good scores all around are generalists, and likely useful for new players.  'Frames that drop as soon as you run out of power are specialists, and should NOT be starter choices.  This is because the 8 Base build can EASILY represent 40 hours of mod/endo farming, not to mention formas in the 'Frame.

Also, just as important, more rare mods can take days or weeks of determined, purposeful farming.  RNGesus is sparing with His blessings and COMPLETELY unmoved by your plight.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Volt has 2 major builds, and Digital Extremes has passed on reviewing him until now because of that fact.  They've missed how mod-intensive, forma-intensive, and limiting these builds tend to be.

Attempts at a generalist 8 Base build just sacrifice utility across the board, which is a SERIOUS indicator of problems.  Speed builds ignore Shock and Discharge (both of which DO have issues), but that's very restrictive to gameplay and variety.  Discharge builds sacrifice Speed to gain some survivability at the cost of mobility, but mobility IS survivability and Discharge is unreliable CC and damage.

This means Volt has ZERO good generalist builds, Arcanes not included (as they should not be).  His 2 specialist builds sacrifice more than they gain.

Ergo, Volt is screwed.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Cytobel

[Ventura_Highway]

5 hours ago, Cytobel said:

Make Shock work with each other ability as this "keystone" they spoke of

Right now though I'm of the opinion that I'd rather have good base abilities over abilities that need to be combined to be useful. This represents to me the idea that Shock is supposed to be mostly an on-switch for other components of the other three abilities, which goes against that precept of good basics over good combinations.

5 hours ago, Cytobel said:

I'd work in a ball lightning interaction between Shock and Speed, because BALL LIGHTNING.

I was thinking of suggesting something like this for Volt, some sort of quick maneuver, but I have this video I was going to post of me trying to do a Riven challenge to complete a level 30 interception with Volt under Hobbled Key. One half of it is me casting Discharge, the other is teleporting as the kiddo. We already have a good teleport I'd argue.

It's possible I am misinterpreting this statement due to having played Dota 2 for a while.

I'd have more to say if I wasn't so tired right now. I think both your posts are very insightful though.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Ventura_Highway

[Cryone]

So, new info's out about Volt. 

PSA: [PC] Upcoming Changes to Gara's "Mass Vitrify" (Bonus Volt Info)
"Bonus Info: We also have some exciting adjustments to our recent Volt changes. As you may recall, we were still actively reviewing the Damage aspect since the day we made the change (Prime Time with Steve explained this!)We have decided to remove the damage cap and raise the damage per second of Discharge, improve its synergy with Shock and we are also halving the energy costs of carrying around Electric Shields. Volt should now be given a bit more protected movement (albeit it with some energy cost), as well as just simply deal more damage overall! "

Is that Victory? Hope it includes almighty X, Y spreading, and some tweaks to Speed. After that for sure i'll be satisfied.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Cryone

[Ventura_Highway]

16 minutes ago, Cryone said:

Bonus Info: We also have some exciting adjustments to our recent Volt changes. As you may recall, we were still actively reviewing the Damage aspect since the day we made the change (Prime Time with Steve explained this!)We have decided to remove the damage cap and raise the damage per second of Discharge, improve its synergy with Shock and we are also halving the energy costs of carrying around Electric Shields. Volt should now be given a bit more protected movement (albeit it with some energy cost), as well as just simply deal more damage overall! 

If that's all they're doing I'm going to terrorize some more pubs with my Discharge spam build to make a point.

Also it expresses some dissonance when the tweet of how Volt is not CC is factored in.

Seeing them just get rid of the damage cap like that is a little wearying to me. I tried writing big detailed things to be considered but if I'm ultimately just one screeching voice among thousands of others those are too inefficient to keep doing.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Ventura_Highway

[Vafthrudnir]

16 minutes ago, Ventura_Highway said:

If that's all they're doing I'm going to terrorize some more pubs with my Discharge spam build to make a point.

Also it expresses some dissonance when the tweet of how Volt is not CC is factored in.

Seeing them just get rid of the damage cap like that is a little wearying to me. I tried writing big detailed things to be considered but if I'm ultimately just one screeching voice among thousands of others those are too inefficient to keep doing.

So wait they still are not hearing that the passive is insignificant, speed lasts not enough, 4 should expand with duration, sprint speed is too low, and shield drain should not be on range but duration again?

[Ventura_Highway]

6 minutes ago, giovanniluca said:

So wait they still are not hearing that the passive is insignificant, speed lasts not enough, 4 should expand with duration, sprint speed is too low, and shield drain should not be on range but duration again?

The update notes will have the final say.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Ventura_Highway

[Vafthrudnir]

4 minutes ago, Ventura_Highway said:

The update notes will have the final say.

update 22.5.2

Volt sucks plus.

Also people scared of Gara nerfs, Volt was nerfed while getting buffed lol.

Edited December 5, 2017 by giovanniluca

[GeometricBison]

Not that this really matters, but I ended up getting Volt's deluxe skin pack (I traded for the plat to buy it if that makes a difference) and I can't say I hate it. It can be a tad bit hard to color, but stick on Nidus' noble animation and you're pretty much good to go. I honestly really expected to hate it, and I did before I got it, but I kinda like it now. The hammer skin is pretty trash though.

[Cytobel]

@GeometricBison:My inner completionist will likely lead to me doing the same.  Thanks for the pointer on the Nidus noble animation, I'll look at it.

As to the changes inbound, sounds like more of the same issues.  We've made it clear that there are MULTIPLE issues, but they want to go with quik-n-ez "solutions" (read: Band-Aids for gangrene) rather than address Volt.

I'm sure they have a lot to do, but there'd be less on their plates if they FIXED THE PROBLEMS THE FIRST TIME.

Done.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

At least they are starting to listen...i feel like they will eventually get it right if they just keep listening (reading), and by eventually, im hoping its not more than a few months...i am starting to feel bad for mag fans, and zephyr fans...there was trouble with discharge when it first came out with how it spread, so the x and y thing might be the same...as far as the rest, we will see? I think its been a good year and half or so of quality rage posts, we really showed DE (hint of sarcasm) but now that they are doing something, maybe its time for some of those cringy mushy posts that seem to want to thank (suck up to) DE for their hard work? ....iv realized with all the salt iv been bathing in since the original rework, my posts dont even sound the same now, 200% more cynical, scarred for life.

[Ikusias]

Still would have been much apreciated if the devs actually answered in this and the other threads on the question...

At least an explanation of what were their goals for the rework and their impression on our criticism.

How can you have a discussion if one of the parties doesn't speak at all?

[Toramaru]

4 hours ago, Ikusias said:

Still would have been much apreciated if the devs actually answered in this and the other threads on the question...

At least an explanation of what were their goals for the rework and their impression on our criticism.

How can you have a discussion if one of the parties doesn't speak at all?

Well, there are people (as incredible as it may seem) that think Volt is in a good position atm... No discussion though, they just drop a post from time to time saying people not happy with it should re-evaluate their conceptions on Volt.

To me, there are so many "buts" on Volt that he is unplayable, except for the shield fortress between pillars and corners.

[FitzSimmons]

well he is great........NERF INCOMIIIIING!!!!

Edited December 7, 2017 by FitzSimmons

[Cytobel]

11 hours ago, Toramaru said:

*snip* To me, there are so many "buts" on Volt that he is unplayable, except for the shield fortress between pillars and corners.

Clearly you haven't looked at the "aft" of that new skin.  No buts about it.

The more I think about it, the less happy I am to see little "tweaks" on Volt.  He needs solid work, and these half-assed approaches make me nervous.

*Jokes done, sorry, but I couldn't help it.*

M'kay, that's my opinion.  Not going to force others to agree.

EDIT: @FitzSimmons Transistor Shield builds are interesting.  They do WORK, but only sometimes.  It's very situational and gear dependant.  Still, dropping a lvl 150 C. Bombard in one shot is fun.  I prefer Capacitance because it doesn't cut into my mobility to use effectively.  Still, I DO use Transistor Shield for my Cetus/PoE build.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Cytobel

[FitzSimmons]

6 minutes ago, Cytobel said:

Transistor Shield builds are interesting.  They do WORK, but only sometimes.  It's very situational and gear dependant.  Still, dropping a lvl 150 C. Bombard in one shot is fun.  I prefer Capacitance because it doesn't cut into my mobility to use effectively.

yea it is, it scales with slash proc, its not as great on secondary because no mod in secondary guarantee slash proc as much as hunter munition does. well when it comes to limitation of gear, volt is already limited to critical weapon to make him use his full potential. thats why if only the passive is activate by a button and have duration instead gone in 1 hit, i would run as far as i need to be to get the damage and activate the passive, and its going to works great on all faction and any type of enemy

[FitzSimmons]

btw i wont need his passive if im fighting below lv 70 enemies

[Cytobel]

I only roll Transistor Shield if I'm killing Teralysts.  If not Capacitance still does more for me, given my play style.

With the Teralysts I can bust limbs in 2 magazines from my Rubico.  Transistor Shield makes this happen in 7-8 good shots instead.  #value

[FitzSimmons]

yeah, volt and high crit damage wepaons are best friends

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

So...has anyone uploaded video of the new volt with both changes?

[Ventura_Highway]

2 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

So...has anyone uploaded video of the new volt with both changes?

There is a change to Volt. Not changes.

[RahuHordika]

And the change isn’t even good, it didn’t adress the one problem it was supposed to deal with.

Guys if DE can’t figure out a way to make discharge work and is so insistent on making the shield be so counterintuitive I feel like volt maybe in a dire need of a hard rework.

Like, excalibur levels of rework (almost).

Edited December 7, 2017 by RahuHordika