Volt Rework Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[Ventura_Highway]

24 minutes ago, Cytobel said:

*huckachuck*

Ooops, were we throwing rocks?  All I've got is kukris.

You can throw whatever you want except rocks because I can name a way for basically every frame except for Chroma to bother me and bother other people, but I tolerate them because when anyone randomly drops into a public game, anything goes.

If there are people that are so bothered by this ability, Discord has made setting up communities incredibly easy, and they are free to make a no-Volt server for themselves, and if they would be so kind, I wouldn't mind a no-Limbo server as well.

EDIT: I am willing to note that there are people there for whom the effects of Speed generate nausea. This is an obviously acceptable argument. I am less agreeable on other points of reasoning. I am also willing to note Wukong is also similarly as inert as Chroma.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Ventura_Highway

[Mudfam]

I think speed just needs to have its duration doubled at least. This will also alleviate the problem with people who don't want it, as Volts won't be constantly spamming it. Right now the duration is so incredibly short that it's easier to spam it frequently than monitor and refresh it when it runs out.

I wouldn't say no to the reload speed buff being increased too though, it's super weak as it is. Perhaps holster speed could be included.

With these basic changes they could then just double the energy cost from 25 to 50 energy, it is his 2 after all.

[Cytobel]

15 hours ago, Mudfam said:

*snip*

With these basic changes they could then just double the energy cost from 25 to 50 energy, it is his 2 after all.

And do even more damage to non-Prime Volt's horrible energy economy?  Remember, he's the "fastest" 'Frame, but only if you create a build that ruins your other abilities and eats energy like a fat man goes through pie (trust me here, I'm a fat man).

Spending double energy to get double duration doesn't fix Speed.  It doesn't make it worth using without at least 160% Strength, it doesn't fix Volt's lack of mobility, it doesn't help the HORRIBLE interactions with Riot Shield, and it really doesn't help new players make Volt usable.

As much crap as I've given DE for the Rewarkening, I KNOW they'd have landed on any obvious answers and been able to implement them.  They would've already considered this choice.

Frankly, for what little Speed gives you, they could double the duration as is and it'd still be a sad skill without specialized builds.  Also, this doesn't fix ANY of the other issues Volt has (lack of damage and/or reliability, nerf'd CC, poor to anti synergy between skills, non-existant role in game and Cell).  I would prefer DE didn't $&*^ around here, rolled up sleeves, and gave a proper rework NOW so that they can move onto anything else.  No more wasted time and effort.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Cytobel

[Vafthrudnir]

1 hour ago, Cytobel said:

Remember, he's the "fastest" 'Frame

He makes every other frame the fastest.

[Vilpan]

Le 08/12/2017 à 01:21, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO a dit :

Hhmmmm

...

Pure curiosity...are you saying you built 3 different volts? Thats dedication. 

yes, i built 3x Volt prime and 1x Volt

[DeltaPangaea]

You could probably increase the effect of Speed on volt himself without touching the benefit he gives to others.

[Vafthrudnir]

55 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

You could probably increase the effect of Speed on volt himself without touching the benefit he gives to others.

Giving him a higher sprint could fix the issue from the Volt's perspective. After all he's a light frame with low base speed.

[DeltaPangaea]

3 hours ago, giovanniluca said:

Giving him a higher sprint could fix the issue from the Volt's perspective. After all he's a light frame with low base speed.

I'd say both, but honestly, EVERYONE should have a higher sprint speed. Bulletjumping is way faster anyway, and a 1.00 sprint speed is a laughable increase from just walking.

[Vafthrudnir]

6 hours ago, DeltaPangaea said:

I'd say both, but honestly, EVERYONE should have a higher sprint speed. Bulletjumping is way faster anyway, and a 1.00 sprint speed is a laughable increase from just walking.

Speed used to speed parkour too and make it more powerful, now it doesn't.

[Cytobel]

35 minutes ago, giovanniluca said:

Speed used to speed parkour too and make it more powerful, now it doesn't.

One of my great sadnesses about The Rewarkening there...

I miss that, the more reliable Shock, and not having to worry about ridiculous anti-synergy.  Oh, and a 4th ability that doesn't work with it's damage cap and breaks everything without it.

A full rework would be very appreciated, especially with an eye towards base Volt.  He could use the love.

[Cryone]

So, or it's like calm before the storm or DE's put Volt in the box, again. No more information recently, no signs of it. Tomorrow will be release of Mirage Prime Access and possibly some update. We'll see, we'll see. 

Edited December 11, 2017 by Cryone

[Cytobel]

No trust from me that they'll do anything with Volt.  They don't seem to want to.

It bothers me, but I see how Zephyr's been treated and I doubt they feel he needs anything.  It's a shame he lacks a place in the current game construct.  I guess he's back to being dead-ish.

[Mudfam]

I play Volt because I like the idea of him so much, but the reality is extremely disappointing.

Shock would be a good quick CC, but it doesn't work half the time and doesn't even target enemies correctly.

Speed is nice, but having to recast it every few seconds just makes it annoying for everyone. The reload speed would be nice, but it's just fake because it's so small.

Shields would be great, but they're too expensive for what they are and with too many drawbacks. Shocking them is a nice touch, yet sadly utterly useless.

Discharge as we well know is a dysfunctional mess that is neither here nor there. In practice we get a bit of CC that barely lasts longer than the cast animation, and kicks in too late leaving us very vulnerable. Totally not worth using.

 

These problems are so incredibly obvious, I don't understand why DE doesn't just fix them already. It's not like basic fixes will suddenly make Volt OP lol. It's really sad that not one person at DE seems to care enough too see this through.

[Cytobel]

@Mudfam:  They DO recognise the issues and have looked at "least effort" solutions.  Unfortunately those aren't working.  Even the half-rework mess didn't do much to repair Volt's tattered kit.

He's going to need a much more comprehensive rebuild than they seem willing to invest into him.  Or at least, at this time.

[Mudfam]

2 hours ago, Cytobel said:

@Mudfam:  They DO recognise the issues and have looked at "least effort" solutions.  Unfortunately those aren't working.  Even the half-rework mess didn't do much to repair Volt's tattered kit.

He's going to need a much more comprehensive rebuild than they seem willing to invest into him.  Or at least, at this time.

Sorry, but I disagree. Fixing the bugs with shock could take an undefined amount of time / effort, but these are bugs, they need to be fixed anyway. The rest is is just very simple tweaks, and not doing them within the next 5 minutes is a matter of not aknowledging them, not having the faintest understanding of where the game sits in terms of balance and mechanics, or otherwise a reluctance to affect any change, not one of effort.

A developer at some point needs to actually play their game and say "wow this sucks, I need to change it", or if not they need to give their ear to someone who does. There is no excuse for so many aspects of a frame to be so completely neglected. There is nothing difficult about making some basic tweaks to address some painfully obvious issues.

[Cytobel]

4 hours ago, Mudfam said:

*SNIP* The rest is is just very simple tweaks, and not doing them within the next 5 minutes is a matter of not aknowledging them,... *SNIP*

Alright, lets agree to disagree, because I'm moderately certain the issues are caused (at least in part) by outdated ideas from an era of game design more than 4 years old.

If I'm being less charitable, I'd say DE simply doesn't understand what Volt is (and more importantly ISN'T) able to do.  In this, yes, they probably SHOULD put in more play time, and I mean ALL of them.  The thing here is that they would have to look at EVERYTHING in game, plus the time it takes to access each item, mod, weapon, and 'Frame.

Realistically Digital Extremes likely has better things to do than assign it's core design staff (nevermind EVERYONE) to play Warframe for a few hundred hours.  I wish they could.

Nevertheless, I think that conceptual work is needed more than simple tweaks.  I'm of the persuasion that DE should consider ability synergies, overall play strategy, the value of learning possibilities in a starter 'Frame, and common reality for players at higher end.  This all boils down to REALLY THINKING about the factors involved and restructuring Volt accordingly with a proper rework.

P.S., this is not an apology for DE, nor do I think they are blameless.  I just believe the problem is much larger than we see and DE would rather ignore something if most of us aren't clamoring for a major change.  I AM clamoring for change, as are many of us.  So I don't see this as anything directly contradictory to your protest for change @Mudfam.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Cytobel

[Hypernaut1]

The thing that irks me most about Volt if the fact that he doesn't have one of the highest base sprint speeds.

What is the logic behind this?

[Vafthrudnir]

Changes:

You can now swap to your primary weapon while holding Volt's Electric Shield, doing this will drop the Electric Shield. You can drop the Electric Shield as before to avoid switching to another weapon.

And that's just it, Volt is dead for another year.

[GeometricBison]

18 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

The thing that irks me most about Volt if the fact that he doesn't have one of the highest base sprint speeds.

What is the logic behind this?

I guess that DE assumed that Speed would make up for his slow sprint speed, but they forgot that it makes everyone faster, not just Volt.

[Cryone]

At least the last fix a bit helpful on swaps. Still no info about discharge. All we need to do is wait.

[Vafthrudnir]

1 hour ago, Cryone said:

At least the last fix a bit helpful on swaps. Still no info about discharge. All we need to do is wait.

If the range doesn't scale on duration it'll be still bad.

[Cytobel]

If waiting would've fixed this then there would be no problems left in the world.  People would've waited them all out.

Seriously, time and again we point out the problems we have, and we consistently come to the same points.  This is a matter with clear and distinct camps of thought, with tightly-held beliefs and ZERO middle-ground.

I'm starting to wonder if it's even worth playing Volt anymore.  DE's clearly defined him as a second-rate, do-nothing if you don't build for Speed, at which point you HURT your squad.  Capacitance Volt can keep himself alive (somewhat), but I've noted many instances in which cell members simply aren't getting shields.  Worse, you sacrifice potential melee damage to make this happen, damage you COULD see from a Speed build, assuming your team stays nearby and DOESN'T delete everything.

How the hell is it so difficult to approach the concept of reworking a 'Frame which clearly needs it?  What's so hard to understand about consistently poor usage statistics?  Why is it challenging to observe feedback?

I believe that too much of DEs time is being wasted on Reddit rather than these Forums.  If that's the case then we all should start posting everything in duplicate, just so it has a CHANCE of being observed.  If the only topics trending in Reddit are contentiously-worded warzones of words then perhaps the idea that SOMETHING isn't right will seep into a larger portion of the gaming community, and by extension Digital Extremes.

How many times do we need to see yet another example of a solid, workable 'Frame introduced into the game while old, broken 'Frames languish?  Why is this considered acceptable?

Edited December 13, 2017 by Cytobel

[Vafthrudnir]

I'm happy.

500 people upvoted a post on reddit that says literally "Volt sucks" 

well not the whole Volt but it says discharge sucks and they voted a bunch of ideas too and express the desire for Volt to be way more.

[DeltaPangaea]

A friend of mine did suggest that changing Volt's 1 to be an exalted weapon that just costs like 5 energy to throw a lightning bolt and scales with secondaries could be good.

And then my personal suggestion for Discharge is to make it charge up with all electric damage Volt does (Similarly to how Inaros' Scarab Swarm charges), and does damage based on its charge level, but Volt also gets some kind of benefit from having it charged. Sprint speed, or energy regeneration, something like that.

So in effect, Volt becomes a battery. He wants to charge himself up (And gets passive visual electric effects when he's fully charged), and then you have the choice to expend that charge for a room-clearing nuke (Which you couldn't then repeat without charging up again, thus removing DE's concern of 'spamming'), or keep it for the passive benefit.

[Cytobel]

Frankly, too many 'Frames have "Exalted" weapons.  That's no more a solution than any other Band-aid would be.  Without adjusting his base stats for the purpose of bringing him in line with current game reality there's no point at all.

Look, if we go by the previous trailers and try to hold to abilities that appear to be (at least superficially) the same, we can make something work.  None of that will occur so long as Volt is sitting in a messed-up position statistically.  He's in a low-armor, low-mobility, "not CC" position without the ability firepower to kill or control enemies.  In this he's a waste of a cell slot.  Hell, he doesn't even bring mobility to the mix.

Volt is SOOO fast that there are only 5 slower 'Frames in game.  He's so blisteringly fast that there are 10 other 'Frames just as fast as him.  Ignore the 18 other 'Frames behind the curtain that move faster and thus gain more from Speed than Volt ever will.  Look at the mechanics of Speed, how you're trading energy for a BRIEF buff to movement.  Consider the utterly average 150 energy pool.  Laugh (because there's no point in crying).  Volt packs Electric Shield, which does so much for him that you cannot dismiss it.  Shock has gone from the worst 1st ability to the best, and now is hovering near the bottom again due to inconsistency...  As such I understand why people think a catch-all fix like an exalted weapon might do all the things.

REAL FIXES

First, base Volt goes up to a 225 energy pool at max level.  Normal and Prime Volt go to a sprint speed of 1.3 (so that Volt really IS the "fastest", aside from a teleporting Nova, but that's okay in my book).  I've been toying with the idea of Volt's passive only loosing half it's stacks per expenditure (drop from 1000 to 500, 500 to 250, etc.) in order to give him a more "electric eel discharge" feel there.  By the numbers this roughly doubles the damage output on the passive, but it'd work more smoothly and prevent accidental wastage somewhat.

Next, make Shock gain a multiplier to damage for proximity to target, up to a 3.0x multiplier, and give it the ability to be constant-cast.  Remove the corpse targeting entirely (or don't make corpses cound for the bounce limit), and prevent the ability from aiming itself until it's struck THE PLAYER'S initial target point.  Now Shock fits what we've seen in The Profit trailer and would have a bit of extra oomph to overcome armor at close range.

Third, Speed.  If Volt's sprint speed jumps to a 1.3 then all we need here is a base duration of AT MINIMUM 15 seconds.  I would recommend that scaling with Strength-builds be looked into as well, but that's as much a seperate issue as the harm it causes to team play to have a sudden and unannounced jump in mobility.  The only other thing is an interaction between Shock and Speed needs to be added.  Hmmm....  Shock and Speed.  It'd need to be some sort of shocky-speedy thing.  A speed shock thing.  Something that brings speedy shocks...  AHA!!  Ball Lightning!  Srsly tho, when you're Speeding along and cast Shock at a group in front of you, you should form a Ball Lightning behind your Volt headed in the same direction at the same speed as Volt.  Base it's damage off of the Shock's damage.  Let it roll into a group you just immobilized with a Shock as you sail overhead, raining death by lightning!

Fouth, Electric Shield.  Here we have only one thing on the ability proper:  a Shock-charged Electric Shield needs to proc electricity on things that make contact with it.  That's it.  For the Riot Shield, NO cost-per-meter please.  I'd be happier with a 3 energy-per-second than that.  Most improtantly though, I will NEVER use the Riot Shield so long as it slows me.  Remove the mobility penalty or it's a dead mechanic.

Finally we have Discharge.  Many people are talking about Duration being the spread mechanic.  This is because many people aren't seeing the basic issues with Speed, but ARE noting problems with Discharge.  In this situation, I don't mind a spread based off of either Range or Duration, so long as I can bring the ability to bear effectively against a large-enough area.  The DPS "buff" did nothing but nerf Discharge because of the damage cap.  This would be fixed by cutting base damage to 450 and removing the cap entirely.  As to the interaction with Shock, I'd have Shock stack on the DPS output for the chaining from Discharge.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There we go.  A working Volt, no abilities replaced.  A Volt that uses what is in his kit more effectively, brings more to the table for a new player, and doesn't need a massive, drawn-out rebuild.  Hell, none of the numbers I've written need to be worried about particularly.  If they're over the top, then they can be toned back.  If they're under-performing they can be scaled up slightly.

A stupid easy fix that could be done in a matter of hours.

I've stated this over and over.  If I had direct access to a dev I'd bend thier ear with this instead.  If nothing else I'd love to hear why this isn't an appropriate fix from the horse's mouth, as it were.  I COULD ACTUALLY WORK ON COMING UP WITH BETTER THEN.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Cytobel